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Originally posted by Malnurtured Snay:
What lost 20?

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The Lost Twenty are what the Jedi call the only 20 individuals throughout their history to leave the Order, of whom Dooku/Tyrannus is the most recent to do so.

I'd like to point out that since Palpatine is known to employ clone bodies to extend his life, we have no way of knowing just how old he *really* is. He could be as old as Yoda. (I'm not saying that's probable, just possible.)

-MMoM

[ May 18, 2002, 19:58: Message edited by: The Mighty Monkey of Mim ]
 

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Posted by Jeff Raven (Member # 20) on :
 
The fact that he uses clones to extend his life is not necessarily canon either.
 

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Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
 
You know, this new trilogy calls in to doubt a lot of what the books and comics have established. The Zahn trilogy established that the Emperor chopped off Vader's hand because he tried to enlist Luke's help in overthrowing him. We know that isn't what happened.

Let's talk about what we know in reference ONLY to what we've seen on the silver screen.
 

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Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
 
No, there's always a way of explaining things. The official stance is still that all liscenced materials (barring those which bear the Infinities logo) are canon as well. Of course, stuff get ret-conned and revamped and revised, but usually it's with an explanation that negates the contradiction.

Lucas himself is adherent to this system, and he seems to be quite careful about not doing anything that is hopelessly irreconcilable with the so-called "Expanded Universe."

-MMoM
 

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Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
 
I'm a big fan of the Timothy Zahn books. So let's see what I can dig up from those stories:

- The Emperor "appropriated" the cloning facility on Wayland from "one of the old clonemasters." (Still possible, but not likely given that Palpatine himself is now in charge of the clone army.)

- The Katana fleet was part of the Old Republic's military, and disappeared "ten years before the Clone Wars broke out." (Well... maybe not, since there WAS no Old Republic military other than the Jedi!)

- Vader lost his hand as punishment for the destruction of the Death Star. (Um... no.)

- The Clone Wars were supposedly forty years before "Return of the Jedi," according to the timeline described by the Noghri, and when their planed was wasted. (Doubtful.)

- Various references implied that there was an Imperial Fleet that was separate from that of the Old Republic's. Pellaeon, for example, explicitly said that he'd served in the Imperial Fleet for fifty years. (Bzzzt. Sorry, try again?)

- Jorus C'baoth disappeared aboard the old Outbound Flight Project -- 64 years before the Empire was established. At that time, Senator/Emperor Palpatine was already in the early stages of his campaign of extermination against the Jedi.

- There was an incident involving Dark Jedi on Bpfassh around 65 years before the Empire was established. Yet the Jedi in AotC seem to have no knowledge of members of their order who had turned to the Dark Side. (Hmmm...)

So yes, some of the details may hold up, but overall, I'd say that Lucas is trampling all over the "Expanded Universe" background.

Not that I particularly care either way. It's his story, and I like some of the twists that he's throwing against earlier preconceptions.
 

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Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
 
Amen to the above!

Hey -- with what was established about the Sith in Ep 1 ... "Always two there are, no more ... no less."

Did Yoda mean that there can only be two Dark Jedi at a time?

Or that Dark Jedi always travel in groups of two? You'll never find a Dark Jedi working by him(her)self, but with another ... and you'll never find more then two working with each other ...
 

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Posted by UM. (Member # 239) on :
 
If it's only two, then Dooku must die before Vader enters the whole Dark Scene. Which seems likely. I am pointless.
 

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Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
 
I'd like to know when Dooku came into the picture in relation to Maul, however.
 

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Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
 
Well, the EU explanation is that there's only ever two Sith, but there can be more Dark Jedi. The Sith thing is explained because at one point, there were many Sith and they all got power-hungry and killed each other. So, there's now only ever two.

And something just occured to me. If Dooku has to be out of the picture before Vader comes along, maybe he's the one that gets killed on Dagobah, possibly by Yoda? That would give that tree the weird dark side thing that gives Luke a vision.
 

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Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
 
Or maybe the "two Sith" thing is just a tradition that ends up being broken later.
 

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Posted by Vice-Admiral Michael T. Colorge (Member # 144) on :
 
Either way, Anni becomes Vader and the Republic becomes and Empire at the hands of Palpatine.
 

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Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
 
The death of Maul, the commissioning of the Clone Army, and Palpatines allegiance with Tyrannus, appear to have started all at about the same time. "10 years ago" is referred to throughout the movie. We don't know exactly when though...some things could've happened before Ep 1 or slightly after.

Palaptine has things set up so that, no matter what happens, he wins. He had trained Maul as his apprentice, but who's to say he didn't have other powerful people that he was working with. Tyrannus was a Jedi at one point, but left. We don't know exactly when he left or whether he was working with Sidious before he left.

Given the implication that it was Tyrannus who erased the reference to Kamino from the Jedi files (this is isn't for certain...it could've been some else...say Qui Gon?), we can assume that Tyrannus was working with Sidious before he left the Jedi Order.
 

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Posted by Jeff Raven (Member # 20) on :
 
Monkey:

It has been long established that the Expanded Universe is not canon. It is considered official, but if the movies contradict what is in the books, then it is the movies that which it really goes by. Our local Frankish Shadow had a link to something that explains it quite nicely.
 

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Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
 
I highly doubt that Qui-Gon was involved in Dooku's plans at all. Remember that Dooku wished Qui-Gon were still around, so that he could try to get Qui-Gon to join him. That would suggest Qui-Gon hadn't done so already before his death.
 

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Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
 
He may not have actively joined his plans, but, as Dooku's apprentice, Qui Gon may have been involved in something he didn't realise he was involved in at the time.
 

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Posted by Obi Juan (Member # 90) on :
 

quote:

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If it's only two, then Dooku must die before Vader enters the whole Dark Scene. Which seems likely. I am pointless

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I think it would be rather fitting for Anakin to kill Dooku at Palpatine's request. "Kill him and take your place at my side. Together we will rule the universe as father and so...Emperor and Lord."
 

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Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
 
Obi Juan, your signature disturbs me greatly.



I don't think Palpatine would order Anakin to kill Dooku ... Dooku is more powerful then Anakin. I'm thinking Yoda or Mace will get Dooku.
 

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Posted by WERUreo (Member # 662) on :
 
I've got a question, and I hope it is not too stupid of one... I tried to pay attention to certain details the second time I saw AOTC, but there is one thing that I'm still missing...

Sidious refers to Dooku as Tyrannus at the end of the movie... At the beginning, when Obi-Wan goes to Kamino, the Prime Minister tells him that a certain Jedi ordered the creation of the clone army... But I can't remember what the name of that Jedi was... Was it Tyrannus?

I'm trying to piece together the puzzle, but I'm falling short.... Oh, and also, is Tyrannus the name Dooku went by as a Jedi, or is it the name he goes by as a Sith, as Anakin took the name Vader when he became a Sith...?
 

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Posted by The Ulcer Mongoose (Member # 239) on :
 
Dooku was referred to as Lord Tyrannus, so one could rightly assume that this is a Sith name, or at the very least, his name while on the Dark Team.

Sifa-Dyas was the Jedi who was responsible for ordering the clone army. He was also intended to check up on them, but unfortunately for him, he was dead.
 

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Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
 
The Kaminoans said that Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas ordered the clones. It was Jango who said he was hired by "a man named Tyranus" to be the clone template.
 

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Posted by WERUreo (Member # 662) on :
 
Thanks TSN and Mongoose for clearing that up for me! Now it makes a little more sense to me that Fett told Obi-Wan that Tyrannus was the one that hired him to be the clone template...

It makes me wonder, though... Could Dooku/Tyrannus have been Sifa-Dyas when he was still in the Jedi Order?? I mean, Obi-Wan says he thinks Sifa-Dyas died ten years ago, but he also told Luke that his father died at the hands of Vader... Perhaps when Sifa-Dyas left the Order, he was picked up by Sidious, in need for a new apprentice since the death of Maul, and turned him to the Dark Side, ordered him to go to Kamino and order the clone army, and hire Jango as the template??

Just trying to piece more things together.... Any thoughts?
 

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Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
 
^ No, I don't think Jedi change names unless they go to the Dark Side.

First of all, Obi-Wan knew who Dooku was, and he apparently also knew Syfa-Diaz as a seperate being(forgive my spelling).

Second, Dooku is mentioned as a "political idealist" by Windu in the opening scene. He didn't change his name, and he's not unknown to the average citizen in the Republic. As far as anyone knows, he's a former Jedi who is disillusioned with the government and leading the rogue systems who have left the Republic. My point is, it seems pretty clear Dooku has always been known as Dooku ... once he was Jedi Master Dooku, student of Yoda, teacher of Qui-Gon. Now he's a "Count" (?!) and leader of the breakaway systems. But, no, he was never "Syfa Diaz" (although he could've presented himself as such to the Kaminos).

Nice theory ... but, no.

[ May 25, 2002, 06:50: Message edited by: Malnurtured Snay ]
 

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Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
 
I still am wondering about the similarity between "Sifo-Dyas" and "Sidious." There is some connection implied, but what it is is beyond grasp until more is revealed. I firmly believe that Sidious and Palpatine are the same person, as it is rather obvious and furthermore Lucas and McCullum have said so outright. But as to this "Sifo-Dyas," I am most interested.

And, about the whole "Count" thing. According to the Visual Dictionary, that's the family title held by his ancestors on his homeworld of Serenno. After quitting the Jedi order, he returned to Serenno and took up the family title.

-MMoM
 

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Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on :
 
The whole Sifo-Dyas/Sidious soundalike thing did confuse me a bit. . .
 

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Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
 
Well, it could be possible there are several clones - Sidious, Palpatine, Sypho-dias? Maybe all with subtle differences.

Presumably Yoda/Mace could detect Palpatine's strength with the force?

I think Sypho-dias had a sister Cameron.

It's clear Sypho-dias was a well-known Jedi - Obi-Wan knew of him Dooku was always Dooku.

Palpatine/Sidious is just pulling the strings on both sides. 1. He has created the separatists 2. He has created a clone army to counter the separaist threat (I mean why not just let them leave? It was Palpatine who got all "nusty" in his office about not letting the Republic break up) 3. It can become his Army to use for - in the long term to take control of the Republic and turn it into the Empire, to destroy the Jedi.

And reguards the "always two there are, a master and an apprentice" - I guess this could apply to the Jedi in IV, V and VI... Yoda/Obi-Wan Kenobi, Yoda/Luke Skywalker, Luke Skywalker/Leia "there is another" Organa.

PLUS I thought they were going to explain why Qui-Gon didn't do the whole Jedi ghost thing in AOTC?

Andrew
 

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Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
 

"...I mean why not just let them leave? It was Palpatine who got all 'nusty' in his office about not letting the Republic break up..."

Because then the senate wouldn't have granted him emergency powers, and he wouldn't be able to take over.

As for Qui-Gon, the novel suggests that, when he yells out for Anakin to stop killing the Tuskens, Yoda doesn't understand what's going on. So, apparently, the "Force ghost" trick was unknown until Qui-Gon managed it.
 

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Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
 
That's something I hadn't thought of before...that Qui Gon was the first to do that....hmmmmm.....

And yes, Sidious' whole purpose in starting the Clone Wars is to get more power and get the Jedi involved in a war that will lead to alot of their deaths.

I'm guessing that the Clone Wars will end with Palpatine's new Leiutenant and best buddy, Anakin Skywalker, slaying the leader of the Seperatist movement and restoring order to the galaxy. In other words, Palpatine will betray Dooku to come off looking like the good guy, and at the same time, he'll get a new apprentice.
 

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