O.K. I have been a long time sci-fi fan and a fan of Star Wars as well, although I would not consider myself an avid fan. After seeing Episode 2, I have some questions and additional issues. I will go through them one by one.
1. The clones. Who exactly ordered the clones? Did I miss this? Was I not paying attention? I do not recall the Jedi’s name, and it would seem that this was somewhat of a mystery that was never resolved. Additionally, why were the clones ordered? While they certainly served their purpose in battling the separatists, it would seem that Palpatine/Sidious is scheming and has bigger and better plans for them. Also, am I correct in my assessment that Dooku (who is ACTUALLY in cahoots with Sidious?) is manipulating the separatists in order to have an excuse to put the clone army into action?
2. Stormtroopers. Are the Stormtroopers seen in the original trilogy clones? If so, then I have some issues with this premise. In her message to Ben, Leia says “years ago you served my father in the clone wars…” This infers that the “clone wars” have come and gone. However, if Stormtroopers are, in fact, clones, one could make an argument that the clone wars are still going on.
Another scene leaves one with the impression that Stormtroopers are not clones. While Obi-Wan is disabling the tractor beam on the Death Star, two Stormtroopers (that are not quite the same height, mind you) are “chatting” about the new “P2-16.” I find this to be a bit unusual if they are clones, since they would presumably “have no concept of individual lives, rights or thoughts, at all.” (Quoted from Shane Johnson’s Star Wars Technical Journal, page 77.)
Still, I admit that a convincing case can be made that Stormtroopers are, in fact, clones. Leia’s comment to Luke, “Aren’t you a little short for a Stormtrooper,” would seem to support this. Also Ben’s line about the “weak-minded” would help make the case for Stormtroopers being clones.
3. The clone wars. Was the incident in Episode 2 the clone wars? Surely not: It seemed more like a brief skirmish than an actual war. Or, are more wars to come in Episode III that will constitute the clone wars? What will signify the “end’ of the clone wars, if known?
4. Obi-Wan and droids. Obi-Wan stated in ANH that he doesn’t seem to recall ever owning a droid. O.K., maybe he did not actually “own” R4, but still… I am somewhat confused by R4s designation. I thought it was pretty well established that: R2 units have metallic or solid color domes (like R2-D2). R3 units have clear (Plexiglas) domes. R4 units have truncated, conical heads (UNLIKE Obi-Wan’s R4). And, R5 units have an angled “flower-pot” head of sorts (like R5-D4, “Red”).
So what gives with the “R4” designation? It would seem that Obi-Wan’s R4 is, in fact, an R2 unit.
5. C-3PO, R2-D2, and “remembering” the droids. I get the impression in the Star Wars universe that droids, whether it be protocol or astomech droids, are a dime a dozen. Thus, I do not have a big problem in believing that Ben does not immediately recognize R2, Vader does not recognize 3PO, Owen does not recognize 3PO, and so on. However, on the other side of the coin, surely 3PO’s memory will get wiped at some point before ANH. He says in ANH, “I’m not even sure what planet I’m on.” Additionally, it would seem that he does not even recognize the Lars moisture farm, where he worked in AOTC.
Now R2 is a different story. I can believe that his memory may still be intact throughout the original trilogy, seeing as how he was rambling on about a “secret mission” and “Obi-Wan Kenobi gibberish.” Of course, if this is the case, he has not bothered to give 3PO any details concerning the past and their previous adventures on Tatooine.
There has been a lot of discussion as to whether Vader recognizes 3PO. He may. Then again, he may not. It is my contention that it really doesn’t matter, because if he does recognize him, Vader wouldn’t care! He has been converted to the dark side; pure evil; in other words, the “bad guy.” Quite frankly, he has other diabolical plans to worry about without time for a stroll down memory lane. Vader: “Hey, there’s that droid I built! Big deal! I’m really too busy trying to take over the galaxy to care!”
6. Anakin’s training. O.K. Anakin is Obi-Wan’s padawan, i.e., his apprentice: I got that. But did Obi-Wan actually TRAIN Anakin, as stated in ROTJ, or did Yoda? In fact, Obi-Wan’s dialog in ROTJ really seems to conflict with Episodes 1 and 2 altogether. “I took it upon myself to train him as a Jedi. I thought that I could instruct him just as well as Yoda.”
One would think from these lines that Obi-Wan decided to teach Anakin of his own free will, without permission from a Jedi Council and without the request of a dying Master. It would also seem from this dialog that Yoda had nothing to do with Anakin’s training. Yet, in a scene in AOTC, we see Yoda instructing several children in a “Jedi class” of sorts. (Actually, I found this scene totally useless and a waste of screen time, but that is an entirely different discussion.)
So, did Yoda train Anakin or have anything to do with his training?
7. Assassination attempt on Amidala’s life. Who exactly wanted her killed and why? What purpose would her death serve?
O.K. Have at it! Any explanations or even speculation is appreciated.
[ May 30, 2002, 20:25: Message edited by: Commander Dan ]
Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on :
1. A Dark Jedi so far unidentified, but posing as Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas. The clones were ordered to be an eventual Army of the Republic, long before the (manufactured) reason for their being needed - Dooku's manipulation of the Separatists - came to light.
Posted by The Ulcer Mongoose (Member # 239) on :
1. Sifa-Dyas ordered the clones from Kamino. Without the authorization of the Senate or the Council, around 10 Years prior to AotC. The clones were under investigation by the senate to help alleviate the pressure on the Jedi to keep the peace. Presumably Sidious had something to do with the premature authorization of the clones, to help his plan to play the two sides of the Republic against each other.
2. Canonically, we do not know. The EU alledges that they are individual people, but Lucas might disregard that in Episode III.
3. I would infer that the incident in Episode II was a battle of the Clone Wars. Yoda says "The Clone Wars, begun, they have", or something very similar. Certainly the Seperatists aren't done, nor is Palpatine.
4. Okay. Lucas shat on the EU with AotC (And rightly so, Georgie!) so he can redefine whatever he wishes, so if he intened R4 to be R4-XX, and not R2-R4, or something, than it sticks.
5. Lucas has confirmed that the Droids indeed have a memory wipe in Epidode III or near to it.
6. I take it that the Jedi/Padawan relationship is much like Batman/Robin. Each are capable of doing their own schtick, but Batman is all older and knows stuff, while Robin's all green ad young. So maybe it's less pure training than leading by example. I don't think Yoda has anything to with Anakin's upbringin, nor do I think the quote that you speak of necessarily infers it.
7. With Amidala dead, the leader of opposition to the clone army creation bill-thing would be dead, and therefore it'd be easier to make them clones.
Posted by Veers (Member # 661) on :
UM: It's "Begun this clone war has."
2. The Stormtroopers are humans, or so I like to believe. Somewhere along the line, they must switch from clones to actual people, unless Lucas decides to mess with this.
On an unrelated note, I have something interesting to say: In AOTC, Anakin gives Owen, Beru, and Cliegg Lars very sour looks as he is bringing back his mother's body. This gives me the impression that he feels like they are responsible for his mother's death. He must think Cliegg's excuse "I couldn't go after her because I lost my leg" was a pretty lame excuse. So, in ANH, when he learns that the droids with the plans were traced back to the Lars homestead, the memories of his mother and the Lars' excuses come back to him, and, filled with anger and rage, he orders them executed.
Just a thought. If you don't like it, watch the fan film "Troops."
Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
In the beginning the Stormtrooers were clones, but didn't Han Solo say he had been a Stormtrooper in ANH??
Posted by The Ulcer Mongoose (Member # 239) on :
Posted by DeadCujo (Member # 13) on :
A memory wipe, eh? Where did he say this? That would explain some things I've wondered about.
Posted by Snay (Member # 411) on :
Han never said he was a Stormtrooper. It has been implied that he served in the Imperial Navy -- probably as a pilot. If we can believe the EU background, he was kicked out after risking his neck to save a Wookie slave ... you got it, Chewie.
I don't know if this is true or not, but apparently Harrison Ford signed a deal to allow another actor to portray his likeness in Episode III ... so we might well see a very young Han Solo.
1. Either Jedi Master Sifo-Diaz or someone impersonating him ordered the clones, approx. 10 years before AoTC ... so, roughly the time of The Phantom Menace. Dooku is manipulating the seperatist worlds to give Palpatine the ability to sieze direct control of the Republic. The Clones are simply a tool for that plan of action.
2. I very much hope that Stormtroopers AREN'T clones. I suspect we'll find out in Episode III. I agree with your arguements that they aren't -- the whole "Clone Wars" references in the original trilogy makes it sound like something long ago banned.
3. First battle of the Clone Wars. Methinks the Clone Wars is a general term refering to all the actions fought with a Republic Clone Army. Think back to the history of the US -- the "Indian Wars", which spanned centuries and were just a cute term for individual actions against the natives of the continent.
4. It strikes me that Obi-Wan's unit might be built INTO the fighter (it didn't look like it had enough room to encompass an entire droid). Also, Obi-Wan's droid doesn't have an R4-XX designation. It has an R4-XXX designation (someone help me out on that)? It's a pilot droid ONLY, so the R2/R3/R4 designations could very well be different.
5. Do Vader and 3P0 ever meet? I don't think they see each other in ANH. Vader might catch sight of 3P0 scuttling onto the Falcon in ESB, but I doubt it. They're not even on the same planet at the same time in ROTJ (well, they are, but you get my drift). I did forget about Bespin -- but 3P0 is disassembled and behind a big Wookie, so would he been seen? Besides, there are so many droids that look like 3P0 that I doubt Vader thinks much about it at all!
[ May 31, 2002, 07:39: Message edited by: Snay ]
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
It's probably a good thing that Vader and 3PO didn't recognize each other. 3PO would have called him "Master Annie", and then Vader would have had to kill everyone within earshot.
As for whether the Stormtroopers in the original trilogy were clones, remember that one in episode IV that was so tall he knocked himself out cold on the door? Presumably NOT a clone.
Posted by The Ulcer Mongoose (Member # 239) on :
Concievably the Stormtroopers could be clones and humanesque recruits. The clone base could make up the base of the corps, but there certainly would be a desire to dress as many soldiers as possible. The clonetroopers from AotC would be roughly, I don't know, 48 or so in ANH, so there still could be thousands active. Especially if they still make them for the ongoing clone wars.
If the wars don't end in Episode III, and there is a supply of new and fresh and tasty clonetroopers, certainly there'd be enough around to help start a Stormtrooper army.
Posted by Eclipse (Member # 472) on :
quote:Originally posted by Omega: It's probably a good thing that Vader and 3PO didn't recognize each other. 3PO would have called him "Master Annie", and then Vader would have had to kill everyone within earshot.
Oh, yes, there's nothing more humiliating for a Dark Lord of the Sith than being addressed by a girl's name by an effette protocol droid in front of all one's troops. Posted by Veers (Member # 661) on :
I hope we don't see Han Solo or Chewie in the Ep. III. I don't like the idea of putting everyone we can think of in the prequel trilogy. It was good to see some people that are actually important to the plot, but I hope Lucas just doesn't decide to put someone like Han in Ep.III. Maybe Red Leader, because he's seen Anakin, but Lucas will have forgotten about that.
However, I want to see Tarkin.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
1. According to the Kaminoans, the order for the clones was placed by Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas. However, since Sifo-Dyas has been dead for ten years, we don't know yet whether he was actually involved or not. Someone may have been impersonating him. Whoever it was, the Jedi Council didn't know about it.
Also, Count Dooku (using his Sith name of "Tyranus") was the one who hired Jango Fett to be the template for the clones. What role he played in placing the order w/ the Kaminoans is unknown, though. He may have been using Sifo-Dyas' name. Or maybe he and Sifo-Dyas were working together.
2. I'd guess that the clones are the original Stormtroopers, but that the ones we see in the original trilogy are at least partially, if not mostly, if not all, regular people.
3. AotC marks the very beginning of the Clone Wars. Yoda's exact words near the end are "The shroud of the Dark Side has fallen. Begun, the clone war has." Most likely, the Clone Wars will end when the Separatists are "defeated" (whether Palpatine will have Dooku convince them to surrender, or if he'll actually fight the war out to victory, I don't know).
4. Even though the droid that breaks when Owen tries to buy it from the Jawas is supposedly called "R5-D4", I'm sure I remember Luke calling it an "R2-unit". I suspect that the R# droids get their designations from their programming, and the shape isn't necessarily a giveaway.
5. Since droids tend to look alike, there's nothing odd about people not recognizing droids they haven't seen in thirty years. I used to think it was odd that Owen didn't recognize C-3PO in ANH until I rewatched it and realized that Owen never heard C-3PO's name. All he knew was that he was buying a protocol droid.
And, like someone said, the droids are supposed to get their memories wiped in episode III, so there's no problem there, either. R2-D2 wouldn't need to retain his memory to "ramble on about a 'secret mission' and 'Obi-Wan Kenobi gibberish'". All that information was given to him by Leia at the beginning of ANH.
6. I don't understand the conflict you see here. The only problem I see is the discrepancy between Obi-Wan's "taking it upon himself" to train Anakin, and doing it at the wish of Qui-Gon. But I think this just means that Obi-Wan trained Anakin himself, rather than convincing Yoda to do it. He could have done either one, and still basically kept his promise to Qui-Gon. In his later years, he probably came to think that he should have let Yoda train Anakin. Maybe he thought that Anakin wouldn't have resented Yoda the way he resented Obi-Wan.
But I don't think Yoda actually had anything to do w/ Anakin's training.
7. Nute Gunray, the Viceroy of the Trade Federation, wanted her dead. Sidious and Dooku were the ones trying to kill her because Gunray said the Federation wouldn't join the Separatists until he had Amidala's head on his desk. It just so happened that this was good for Palaptine/Sidious also, because killing Amidala would eliminate the leader of the opposition to the Republican army.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
One person I hope we see in Ep III is Mon Mothma - clearly she is a very important person to the Rebel Alliance, and looks old enough to be around for events in Ep III.
Maybe she was Padme's sister... in those scenes cut from "Clones".
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
ooh.. who should play a young Mon Mothma? :-)
Posted by Jeff Raven (Member # 20) on :
quote: I don't like the idea of putting everyone we can think of in the prequel trilogy.
According to Star Wars Insider, niether does Lucas. He stated that for the most part he only going to include those characters that need to be in there, with only a possibility of superfluous characters showing up.
As for the R4 discrepency, the Insider explains that the original starfighter's droid was damaged and Anakin modified an R4 droid to replace it at a junkyard he crashed into... I think it might have to do with one of the books, but in this case the EU tries to keep itself intact.
Posted by Chris StarShade (Member # 786) on :
Stormtroopers are not all clones, for one thing the hyper-aging aspect of it would make them all dead by the time the original Star Wars movie comes along.
It is, how shall I say it...
"DARTH VADER WANTS YOU! FOR THE IMPERIAL ARMY!"
{plays Imperial March in background}
Posted by DeadCujo (Member # 13) on :
Well there were a lot of young clones still being trained, and unborn ones as well.
Posted by Fedaykin Supastar (Member # 704) on :
oh yeah, if all the troops are clones, and that means they're all like the same height and stuff, how did Luke find a suit which fit him? Then even if he did find one - wouldnt the other clone troops get suspicious of a real short one? plus those non-stormtrooper officers arent clones, so its probly could be assumed the stormtroopers arent clones either. And arnt all the imperial soldies (officers and troopers) with english accents? unlike the New Zealand accent that Jango has? or would clones not have the same accent as the DNA template?
About the R4 droid according to the cross-sections of Ep2, the story of an R4 droid built into the fighter is correct, with Anakin using an R2 dome instead of the damaged R4 one. IIRC
Buzz
[ June 15, 2002, 09:28: Message edited by: Fedaykin Supastar ]
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Accents are 100% learned. They have nothing to do w/ genetics. If you were born in Liverpool, but taken away the moment you were born and raised for twenty years in Alabama, you'd sound like Foghorn Leghorn, not the Beatles.
Posted by thoughtychops (Member # 480) on :
even if you move when you're an adult, you'll slowly lose your original accent, and begin picking up on the new one.
This happened to a friend of mine that moved to New York City. Imagine my amusement a few years later when she went from having an East Texas drawl to having a Brooklyn accent. Bizarre.
Posted by DeadCujo (Member # 13) on :
I doubt after all those years, every stormtrooper is still a clone.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
Yes. The clones from AOTC and the next few batches created by the Kaminoans probably *do* become the first Stormtroopers. But, seeing as how cloning is probably outlawed after the Clone Wars, as the clones get older and die/are retired, they'll gradually be replaced by the familiar conscripted troops of the first Trilogy and the EU.
I mean, really, even if you look only at what we see in the actual films (for those of you who are obsessed with that and can't discern between the canons of Star Wars and Star Trek) it becomes apparent that the Stormtroopers are *not* all clones. Just think about this: Why would the Stormtroopers all be clones, and yet the Death Star gunners, AT-ST drivers, Imperial scanning crews, etc. all be regular Joes? Sure, I could maybe buy officers as being individuals trained at the Academy, (even if in AOTC all the officers were clones as well ) but all these other grunts too?
We've all been partially right here. The Stormtroopers DID start out as clones. But they didn't STAY that way.
-MMoM Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
"even if you move when you're an adult, you'll slowly lose your original accent, and begin picking up on the new one. "
It varies quite a bit actually. Probably to do with pride about wher you come from, a desire to fit in, and other silly psychological issues. Some people seem to change accents instantly, while some hold on to them like a security blanket.
Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :
I can speak to that. I lost my Irish accent within 18 months of moving to Canada as a precocious five-year old so that today it's apparently almost completely unnoticeable when I'm talking to most people. But, and this is where I'm a weird mutant, I apparently switch back to a somewhat more Irishy sound (probably making me sound like Tom Cruise in "Far and Away," unfortunately) when I'm talk to my parents and others with an accent. I certainly don't notice it, but my friends generally piss themselves laughing when they're with me at school when I'm talking to my mother on the phone. And that's why I'm an emotional wreck.
[ June 16, 2002, 22:13: Message edited by: The_Tom ]
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
I can understand t'be shure.
Posted by Snay (Member # 411) on :
I have a bit of an odd accent, and I can't figure out where it comes from (even my parents look at me like I'm insane).
For example, I pronounce "color" as "keller" ... so maybe it's just some fucked up DC/Baltimore varient that no one else has.
I feel identity crisis. People from the south say I have a northern accent, people from the north say I have a southern accent. Woe is me.
Posted by Ultra Magnus (Member # 239) on :
"I feel identity crisis."
I'm not so sure Steve would enjoy that.
Posted by Snay (Member # 411) on :
I'm just worried about what Billy will do when he finds out. Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Erm... Who's Billy?
Posted by Nim Pim (Member # 205) on :
About the clones, it felt scary and sad when the obedient clones charged into the fire, in the last battle of the movie, outside the arena when they charged a complex or something. There was a huge dustcloud and they just ran in there, blasting and dying. Because the producers had made an effort in portraying J&B Fett as pseudo-good, what with the conversation with Obi-Wan, when Jango felt threatened and Boba scared, and when in the space-chase Jango says "Boy this guy can't take a hint!". So the docile little clones just charge and die like they are ordered to, I felt sad for them.
Posted by Nim Pim (Member # 205) on :
On another note, TSN: "If you were born in Liverpool, but taken away the moment you were born and raised for twenty years in Alabama, you'd sound like Foghorn Leghorn, not the Beatles."
*CloneTrooper getting blasted hard in the chest-armor*OUCH!!! My suit! For- Ah say fortunately I always carry a spare set of armor!
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