I'm an old fart and saw all the original trilogy movies when they first came out. Star Wars completely amazed me and is still one of my top 5 favorite movies of all time. However, "The Empire Strikes Back" left we sort of cold. Most people, however, seem to think it's the best Star Wars movie. Why?
I find the humor forced (no pun intended); in particular the droids get really annoying. I don't like how the action is split up and diluted among different locations, only coming together at the end (sort of why I don't like B plots in Trek). I hate spectral Jedi. I don't believe the Han/Leia love story. Cloud City looked terrible.Luke's face is all messed up. Too much soap opera. Lacks a bit space battle at the end. (It's got some good stuff too, of course.)
I'd like to hear your thoughts!
Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
I liked it because the bad guys won. Not that I want evil to trumph, but Empire showed struggle. Everyone was lucky to get out with their lives.
Hoth was a defeat. Solo was frozen and taken away. Luke learns who his father is.
There's just a lot of tragedy. Makes our heroes struggles all that more believable.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
I can think of lots of things to say that are secret ways of putting down Star Wars fans, but I will attempt to restrain myself.
I think a lot of it has to do with Han Solo, and him being a more compelling character than Luke. I mean, Luke has magic powers and guardian angels to help him out of tight spots, but Han just has his wits and his friends; Empire gives him half the film, whereas he's more of a supporting character (albeit a major one) in the other two.
Many people think that it's better written and directed as well, but those are fairly subjective things, and as I haven't watched any of the originals in a long time, I wouldn't really feel comfortable in insisting that to be the case, even though I sort of feel like it is, or that I thought it was the last time I watched it. Basically, I've never seen the first three films as an adult.
Curiously, none of the prequels feature a climactic battle in space.
Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
Empire is better written and better directed than either of the films that bookend it. As to the script, yes, it's the middle chapter which doesn;t resolve anything, but the quality of the writign and dialogue is better than the tin eared dialogue of the other films. Directorially it's better, too. Kershner was able to get decent performances out of the actors, and make even clumsy dialogue sound mostly natural (Yoda aside). The cinematography in the film is better than the others, too, in terms of shot choice and lighting.
Posted by Masao (Member # 232) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sol System: Curiously, none of the prequels feature a climactic battle in space.
Episode 1 did! Little Anakin flies into the Donut ship and blows it up by accident.
Posted by Masao (Member # 232) on :
Damn!
Posted by Masao (Member # 232) on :
Damn! screwed up the post. Deleted.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 24) on :
Well, Return of the Jedi has Ewoks which for a lot of people is an immediate deathblow. Star Wars was very successful and iconic, which oddly enough causes many people to shy away from it by default as being their public favorite.
Of course these people tend to be the most vocal which is why I have a feeling the perception of "most" in the original post is distorted. I bet that if you ask "Star Wars fans" which is the best you'll get Empire but if you ask the general population which is the best science fiction film you'll get Star Wars before any of the other three. e.g. http://imdb.com/chart/top
You know, sort of the, oh [insert massively popular and money-making venture here] was ok for the plebes but [more obscure but more "cool" thing] was better because of X, where X is a unquantifiable property to the plebes.
e.g. TNG was ok, but DS9 was more dark and thought-provoking. The LOTR movies were good, but I preferred the books because they had the Scouring. The X-Files in the later seasons were ok, but I preferred the first season before it got popular...etc.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mucus: Well, Return of the Jedi has Ewoks which for a lot of people is an immediate deathblow.
Amen. I saw a nice re-edit of RTOJ (at a Trek con many years ago) that pieced all the ewok stuff together (ending with Han and Leia watching the Death Star explode), then showing all the Luke/Vader battle.
It was pretty cool as I recall, though I cant remember if the music was just looped for each segment or what.
Posted by Masao (Member # 232) on :
Good points. Star Wars recently appeared on Time Magazine's 100 top movies list (compiled by two of their critics) and was also in the top 10 of the American Film Institute's favorites list. I have no shame in publicly stating that Star Wars is by far my favorite, even if some people say I like it for the wrong reasons! (I also liked Matrix 3 better than Matrix 2). A poll right now at Trek Today, however, has Empire (1st place) outpolling the original (third place) by 2 to 1.
I absolutely hated Jedi when I first saw it and have only seen it twice in the last 20 years. In addition to those fucking Ewoks it's got burping jokes, that vagina with teeth (Sarlac), dopey slapstick deaths (of Boba Fett, etc), some really dodgy matte work (Luke running in front of Rancor), action even more divided among different locals, story-stopping visits to Dagobah, more spectral Jedis, too many rubbery aliens, a disappoint revelation of Anakin's face, even more soap opera and convoluted explanations, and the same ending as Star Wars.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
quote:Originally posted by Masao:
quote:Originally posted by Sol System: Curiously, none of the prequels feature a climactic battle in space.
Episode 1 did! Little Anakin flies into the Donut ship and blows it up by accident.
Curiously, none of the prequels feature a climactic battle in space.
(Bam!)
But, like, we see a little background action, and then Anakin is on the virtual ground inside the ship skidding around blowing things up. Sure, it ends up saving the day for some reason, but the film doesn't particularly focus on it, and all the important action is on the ground.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Incidentally, I always find myself thrown out of the film when, in Clerks, Randal appears to suggest that the fan consensus has Return of the Jedi being superior to Empire.
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
In my experience ROTJ is the most popular among people I know.
Posted by Nim' (Member # 205) on :
I believe that one of the main reasons people like TESB is because it's not the establishing movie and it's not the wrapping-up movie. When watching it, it's like you're in the middle of all the goodies, you've seen some and you have some left.
It's the same in computer games, to me. In the beginning I'm still learning and, in the case of RPGs, the equipment slightly sucks, while in the end-part I feel the ante has been upped, the levels get emptier while serving up the big finale and I know I won't have time to grow that much more before it's over. Maybe I've also collected far more equipment and money than I can spend or use. Shops close, dialogue choices dry up.
In the middle of the game, though, you can walk on a long straight road without seeing the finish-line and just feel comfortably at rest in the universe the game has created, wondering what's going to happen next.
Posted by Zefram (Member # 1568) on :
Those I know who like ESB more than the others like it because ESB is where Darth Vader is at his most evil. In ANH he plays second string to Tarkin and in RotJ he's having second thoughts. However, in ESB he throttles Admirals at the drop of a hat, tortures Han Solo for very little reason, and tries to goad Luke into joining the Dark Side. Finally, he smashes Luke up with flying objects, cuts off his hand, and reveals that he's his father. Given that Darth Vader is probably the most popular character in Star Wars and that ESB lets him be truly evil, it's no surprise that ESB is the most popular among fans.
Posted by Balaam Xumucane (Member # 419) on :
Masao, when I was a kid, I remember Empire left me cold as well. I distinctly recall explaining to my mother that Darth Vader was not Luke's father, could not be. That's probably because I was seven. And because at the end of ANH you have a farm-boy from butt-fuck nowhere flying his four-winged space-fighter in and destroying a planet-killing super-weapon the size of a moon thereby thwarting the plans of the evilest guy you've ever seen and winning a big medal on his chest from the princess. (What's not to like?) In ESB the princess kisses the wrong guy, some silly green puppet talks backwards, and the same ex-farm-boy cries a lot while barely escaping with his life (if not both his hands) and some confusing thing where the baddest guy evar is his dad.
And to that end, I still prefer ANH. It's just bigger, and for me, yes, bigger is better. But as someone who has studied film and who makes films, I would also argue that the dialogue and performances in Empire is the best of the Holy Trilogy. There are some terrific detail points about the characters, we learn more about the force, the effects look better than they did in ANH, and the human stories are far richer and more complex. Plus Han Solo's not such a bad guy when you get to be a little older. A lot of my friends (many of them also film-makers) prefer ESB. I expect it's a matter of taste.
Except Ewoks. Ewoks are dumb.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
While I like ESB best, nothing in any of the movies compares to when Luke first activates his green sabre and starts kicking ass wholesale.
That's why I remain a fan.
Posted by Nim' (Member # 205) on :
He sure went to town. Pity they showed no limbs or blood, maybe he had lowered the voltage knob from "scalpel" to "Tazering sting".
In retrospect, Bobba Fett must've gotten a mild anxiety attack from suddenly standing face to face with a lightsaber-wielder again, after 20 years of distancing himself from what happened to his pa.
One of the things I like with "Empire..." is the increase in image crispiness and the polished shine and hi-tech splendor of the sets in the movie. From Vader's helmet to Cloud City, it really is like seeing another galaxy.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Imagine Boba having to see old clonetroopers- it'd be like a vision of his own mortality wherever he went (unless they have some sort of incept-date that just kills them before the Empire goes broke from vetran's benifits).
I figure Luke's sabre just cauterizes the wounds it makes and there's only blood spilled when a limb (or torso!) is completely severed.
I'd love to see Luke as a Jedi Master fight with all the force powers Obi Wan and the old gang used.
I wonder if Luke is chock full o' Midiclorians or if he's just adverage Jedi material.
Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :
In the EU, he was chock-full of it alright, even moreso than Windu or Yoda ever were. B)
[ May 30, 2005, 08:29 AM: Message edited by: Cartman ]
Posted by David Sands (Member # 132) on :
Nim: I'm with you on the look of TESB. While ANH certainly had a look that was unique to SciFi at the time, the movie just looked cleaner than the others, where ANH felt grainier and ROTJ felt cartoonish. (The camoflage smocks I thought were pathetic even as a 6-year-old.)
And I think part of the reason I like it better has something to do with what Jason just said: we see a competent force user in TESB. Now, that user is evil, but I always found it refreshing to see competence (almost) win the day and not a magic-Jedi-proton-torpedo taking out a planetoid.
As for a chock-full-of-midichlorians-Luke, I would say that that isn't impossible to write well, it's just much harder. And it requires a good grasp for making something metaphysical understandable and inspiring. To quote a reviewer of ROTS, Lucas plays with archetypes the way normal people push checkers across a board. It's fun to do because it's your movie, but it doesn't paint a coherent picture. I'll leaven that statement with one little feature from AOTC I thought was masterful: the way Qui-Gon used the force to "legally" get Anakin off Tatooine. That's the kind of subtlety you have to employ in conjunction with well-orchestrated and busy fight scenes.
There is one movie (haven't read the book yet) that I thought got much closer to doing a young-protagonist-chock-full-of-expertise battle of wills better. The Count of Monte Cristo. I always watched that movie thinking Jim Caviezal acted not too far off of how I would have liked Luke to have acted post "Dark Empire": balanced perspective and willing to use the force for something more aggressive than deflecting laser bolts.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Among other things, Empire is great because it's the one with Yoda. Sure, he was technically in Jedi, also, but only long enough to die.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by David Sands: And I think part of the reason I like it better has something to do with what Jason just said: we see a competent force user in TESB. Now, that user is evil, but I always found it refreshing to see competence (almost) win the day and not a magic-Jedi-proton-torpedo taking out a planetoid.
I think that's whay the first half of Jedi works so well- we know what Vader can do, we saw Luke get his ass kicked with it and, finally we get to see Luke come into his own.
I recall delight at seeing Luke force choke the guards at Jabba's palace and his using the ol' Jedi Mind Trick on Jabba's henchman.
Posted by David Sands (Member # 132) on :
Jason: I had completely forgotten about that choke. That's exactly what I'm talking about.
Posted by Bones McCoy (Member # 1480) on :
Why was 'Empire' better?
Billy. Dee.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
I don't think you can underestimate the cliff hanger ending. When I got my mates who had never seen the films to watch them over a couple of weeks a few years ago, they were all surprised when Empire actually finished. One declared that it was "fucking cheeky" and that if he'd have had to wait another 3 years, he'd have gone and kicked Lucus in the neck.
Empire may be the film with a "middle, middle and middle", but Jedi is the one that goes "end, middle, end". It suffers from the fact that the first 30 minutes is basically "rescue Han", and then the film stops and starts again with "attack the Empire". Vadar and co don't even pop up again until after Jabba is disposed of (apart from the opening 2 minutes, obviously). I think it suffers the most there...after the tension of Empire it's just a bit too silly.
On the other hand, once Luke arrives on the Death Star things pick up tremendously. There's real tension and excitement there. For one of my friends, that part is the only bit in any film where he actually likes Luke.
(And finally, it's obvious to point out but..."I love you", "I know" is brilliant beyond words.)
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
I'm sure Harrison Ford is proud of himself for it. Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
But not so proud as when he says "May the Force be with you" in ANH and can barely keep from smiling at the camera.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by Omega: I'm sure Harrison Ford is proud of himself for it.
Considering that he'd apparently said just about every other phrase in the English language just prior, he shouldn't be too smug.
Posted by Bones McCoy (Member # 1480) on :
BILLY! DEE!
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
If only they could have product-placed some smooth, refreshing Colt 45 malt liquor.
Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
...er....Jusus likes Colt .45?
I'd have pegged him as a Pabst Blue Ribbon kind of guy- a peasant's beer, if you will.
Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
I have come here to tell you that you are too far removed from reality.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
