In Episode 2, we see that Shmi's grave is right next to another grave a little ways from the Lars homstead. I've always assumed that this is the grave of Kleig's first wife, Owen's mother. Is their any EU stuff on who's grave it is?
Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
And where did the graves go by the time of ANH?
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Yah, I was kind of wondering that myself. I'm curious, though, if the angles from ANH are such that we might plausibly not see them. I suppose they could've been swept over by sand, but the area around the homestead seems fairly flat.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Also, why just two graves? Is the farm brand new? Or did Cleig follow corpse-disposal practices that differed from those of the previous farmer generations?
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
The absence of older graves in both episodes 2 and 4 would seem to imply that graves or gravemarkers tend to be removed after some time. It occurs to me that moisture farmers would likely make use of some equipment like the Fremen in Dune, to extract water from corpses.
"Okay, he's gone, now let's dig her back up and dessicate her..."
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Or then there's a market for gravestones, and far too many Jawas to waste ammo at.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
On the Star Wars site in the EU section under Cliegg Lars, it mentions that he moved off world to one of the core planets and married. His wife died and he moved back to Tatooine. So it's possible that Cliegg is the first owner of the homestead. It could also be his parents', who are also mentioned to have been moisture farmers.
The entry doesn't say whether his first wife was buried on Tatooine, though. It seems to imply that she died before they got back.
It's possible that the markers were removed after Luke was delivered in an attempt to erase any record of the past connected at all to Anakin. They probably wouldn't really want Luke asking who's buried there.
"Oh... that was my father's second wife... she and her son were slaves here until he went off and... became... a Jedi."
"A Jedi!! Oh boy!! What happened to him?"
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
Yes, because heaven forbid Luke should find out that his father had a mother, who would in fact be his grandmother.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Of course, the grave also could have been that of the family dog, or something.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Except if that was the case, there would be a "Lars Family Pet Ooglarooloo" action figure, along with a "Lars Family Pet Ooglarooloo with Saddle and Owen Lars in Riding Gear" variant.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lee: Yes, because heaven forbid Luke should find out that his father had a mother, who would in fact be his grandmother.
Well, it would bring up the notion that luke's dad was Jesus or whatever, so it was probably best to leave the kid in the dark. Not that uncle Owen would really know anything about Anakin's origins- Shimi probably did not speak much of that time she got knocked up by microbes.
As to graves- it's the desert- there are probably sand storms re-shaping things all the time. It's why they live below ground, dontcha know?
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Well, how would the lack of a grave raise any ominous questions? Surely "your grandfather isn't buried here" suffices to totally derail any.
Followed, if necessary by "how the hell should I know where he's buried?"
More worrisome is how Luke avoided space googling his last name and finding out he shared it with a famous Jedi who was Palpatine's best friend. How did the rise of Darth Vader get spun, anyway? I suppose the brave Skywalker may have been killed by his traitorous companions. But how exactly do you make Darth Vader out to be a worthy replacement? I mean, if the Jedi were in power for so long, shouldn't their take on the Sith be the mainstream one, and that connection be one the Emperor would want to downplay? I guess it depends on how well known Vader is.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
I think someone has asked the latter question in this very forum, but I forget who or when.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
The Jedi seem to have been fairly secretive about their own methods and members- it probably added to their influence if rumors about their power were the norm.
The Emperor coud have erased all public information on the Jedi...or just arrested anyone asking too many questions about them. Word would have gotten around pretty quick that wise people dont talk about the Jedi.
I doubt many people put Vader together with the Jedi at all....Vader would have been just another evil crony of Palpaltines by the time of ANH.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
Now that's strange, I was thinking about this thread in the shower this morning, and one of the questions I had was concerned with knowledge of Luke's origins - but not while still on Tatooine, after.
We know that a certain time period separates ANH and TESB. During this time Luke Skywalker's name and fame obviously spread quite far. He's one of the poster boys of the Rebellion. And there seems to be no doubt in Palpatine's and Vader's minds that this Skywalker is the son of that Skywalker. But never mind what the Imperial leadership know or guess, what about people in the Alliance?
For a long time the Senate continued to function despite the presence of a ruling Emperor. But in fact what wasn't public knowledge was that most of the Senate was under the control of the Emperor, probably by Sith mind-control means. The Rebel Alliance then become a kind of bunch of conspiracy theorists, as it were, but they're the poeple who know what's really going on. So wouldn't Anakin Skywalker's betrayal of the Jedi be reasonably common knowledge within the Alliance? And we also know he was called Lord/Darth Vader even before he got the biomechanical togs.
So these people would know those facts. They wouldn't know about the existence of a son (or daughter) since only three people (and one droid; Mrs. Organa needn't have known the origin of her foster-daughter; the medical droids could have had their memories wiped at the same time as C-3PO) knew Amidala lived long enough to give birth. But then along comes adult Luke with a princess and a bunch of plans, and becomes a hero. So we're expected to believe not one of those Rebels put two and two together, hearing of Luke being the son of the Great Jedi Pilot, Hero of the Clone Wars, Anakin S., and thought to themselves "But he's. . ." And then didn't mention it to their closest associates, their cell leaders, the Rebel leadership or Luke himself?
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
I'm not speaking so much to Luke's point of view when it comes to Darth Vader's public perception. As Episode III ends the new Empire needs to contend with the fact that yesterday the Jedi were heroes and today they're villains, while at the same time being saddled with a culture that doesn't yet realize it's living in a dictatorship.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Sounds vaguely like the 2000 election....
The newly-formed Empire could promote it's new secure status with parades of clonetroopers and yellow ribbons on every speeder.
Plus that whole "the war is OVER thing.
People would likely be happy with Palpy for his strong leadership and surviving a vile assination attempt- the holier-than-thou Jedis being gone would have probably been seen as a plus, not a negative.
They probably put a Galactic Wal-Mart on the site of the old Jedi Temple. Slaughtered Jedi kids mean low low prices, after all.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
The problem is that, with the war over, people are free to question why exactly they need Palpatine anymore. I'd think it would make more sense to leave some of the seperatists alone, after killing enough of them to ensure they can't actually win or seriously threaten the Empire.
On the other hand, looking for subtlety of any form in Star Wars is, perhaps, an unfruitful exercise.
Of course, without external enemies, I suppose a totalitarian state might rapidly start consuming its own, explaining how things degenerate from a polite democratic fiction to gleeful planetary destruction.
Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
quote:I was thinking about this thread in the shower this morning
Good man.
[quote]And we also know he was called Lord/Darth Vader even before he got the biomechanical togs.[quote]
Well the only ones who knew about Vader's name was the soon-to-be-living-out-their-short-ass-lives-in-agonizing-pain separatists, so I don't think Palpatine and Vader paraded his title and Sith status that much.
What bothers me, if anything, is the fact that Yoda, Kenobi and Senator Organa all knew about Palpatine being a Sith and the ultimate evil and the clones being hacked traitors by the end of Ep.III, yet nothing seems to have come out of it.
I suppose we should assume that all the justified grudges and knowledge they had with Palpatine was baked into the "manifesto" of the Rebel Alliance.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
Another thing I'd like to know about is the source of Owen Lars' antipathy towards Obi-Wan Kenobi. I mean, he doesn't know the guy, all he knows is that one day a Jedi Master turns up with Owen's stepbrother's baby son. Cut to 20 years later and "Ben" Kenobi is a "crazy old wizard" - Owen's true opinion, or just something to discourage Luke's interest?
How much do the Larses get told about what's been going on? When Owen fears that Luke has much of his father in him, is it the crazy wizarding powers, or the traitorous overthrowing of the Republic, or the wife-throttling, that he means, or just the danger of a genetic propensity towards Sandpeople-slaughtering?
Or did he just hand over the baby with nothing but a warning to keep his origins secret, and then start interfering in how the Larses raised the boy? Did he turn up at age five and announce it was time to "Start training the youngling?" Did Owen object? Did it end up in Anchorhead Family Court? I think we should be told.
Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sol System: I'm not speaking so much to Luke's point of view when it comes to Darth Vader's public perception. As Episode III ends the new Empire needs to contend with the fact that yesterday the Jedi were heroes and today they're villains, while at the same time being saddled with a culture that doesn't yet realize it's living in a dictatorship.
History is written by the victors. There are historical examples of groups and organizations that were in public favor for a time then fell out of it. The Nazi party and the Hitler Youth is one. At the time people were probably proud their kid was a member of the Hitler Youth. I bet no one brags about that membership now.
Star Wars history probably depicted the Jedi being good at one time but falling to corruption. After all, Luke knew what the Jedi were and seemed excited that Obi-Wan fought in the Clone Wars. He even wanted to be a Jedi like his father, so he must have known some stories of how the Jedi used to be.
Kenobi was pretty open about calling the current political regieme a "dark time." Perhaps the people in the Outer Rim had a more open view of current events as well as the past leading up to it.
quote:Another thing I'd like to know about is the source of Owen Lars' antipathy towards Obi-Wan Kenobi. I mean, he doesn't know the guy, all he knows is that one day a Jedi Master turns up with Owen's stepbrother's baby son. Cut to 20 years later and "Ben" Kenobi is a "crazy old wizard" - Owen's true opinion, or just something to discourage Luke's interest?
Some comments from Owen Lars and Kenobi:
When Beru says Luke's just like his father, Owen says "that's what I'm afraid of."
When Luke comments that his father was a navigator on a spice freighter, Kenobi replies; "That's your uncle talking. He didn't hold to your father's ideals." and later, when presented with the lightsaber "Your father wanted you to have this when you were old enough, but your uncle wouldn't allow it. He was afraid you'd follow old Obi-Wan off on some damn fool idealistic crusade like your father."
So, at some point previous to ANH Kenobi tried to give Luke the lightsaber.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
The EU documents Obi-Wan's early attempts to make contact with Luke. Owen basically ran him off.
I think Owen and Beru had to know at least part of the whole story. That Anakin, whom they had met before, had had children and become an agent of the Emperor. Over time, the Lars would have natural grown attached to the boy and would not have wanted him running off doing what Obi-Wan was wanting to groom him for. All of Owen's lies about Anakin's past, not even mentioning that he was a Jedi, seem to indicate that they were trying to erase all reference to the truth from Luke's consciousness.
As to how the Jedi are viewed, no doubt the new Empire ran story after story about the inquest into the Jedi's involvement in the war. Investigations were conducted and all the nasty "facts" came to light about how they set everything up. By this time, officers had been appointed over the armed forces and Vader was worked into system, though still under the command of others, such as Tarkin.
I doubt the word "Sith" is anything the Jedi revealed to the general public. I also doubt it's anything Palpatine talked about.
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
For that matter, even if the Sith were known to the public, there may not have been any connection between "Darth" and "Sith" in the public consciousness. The Sith were certainly never mentioned by name in the original trilogy.
Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
I remember my CO in "TIE Fighter" warned me not to give verbal commands to Vader's TIE, it was "not wise to try and give orders to a Dark Lord of the Sith".
"The Sith were certainly never mentioned by name in the original trilogy."
Well, neither were the Ewoks, but where's their conspiracy theory?
re Hitler Youth: At the risk of giving way more weight to an argument about Star Wars than it deserves, I don't see the parallel. The Nazis fell out of favor, to put it lightly, after everyone in Germany suffered horribly through years of war and their entire society was destroyed. And anyway I never said this was unprecedented. Just the opposite. But it requires heavy lifting from the propagandists and/or sweeping social change. I'm not even criticising the films for not playing up that angle, particularly. Just commenting on it.
This all comes back to the prequels suffering from the lack of a Han Solo, though, I think.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"And we also know he was called Lord/Darth Vader even before he got the biomechanical togs."
For what? A day or so?
Then again, Amidala's pregnancy seemed to last about a fortnight, so this may be just more of the same problem...
[ July 28, 2005, 09:11 PM: Message edited by: TSN ]
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sol System: The problem is that, with the war over, people are free to question why exactly they need Palpatine anymore. I'd think it would make more sense to leave some of the seperatists alone, after killing enough of them to ensure they can't actually win or seriously threaten the Empire.
It might explain why Palpy allows the Rebel Alliance to get so powerful though- he's a mastermind in the prequels: I cant imagine he could not have crushed them if he'd wanted to badly enough.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
I don't know, that's stretching things a little too much for my personal enjoyment. Like, I mean, sure, it could be the case, but plots like that sort of try my patience. (I say, eyeing Battlestar Galactica nervously.)
Not that I haven't enjoyed such stories in the past.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
I don't think that the Rebel Alliance was any sort of threat as of the time of ANH. Everyone spoke as if the entire army that we saw in that film was the whole of the Rebel Alliance. Blowing them up would have utterly destroyed them. Palpatine probably watched them from a distance, saw that maybe, maybe they might grow to be a threat, got a bit more worried when they stole the plans to the Death Star, and then saw it as a perfect opportunity to kill two birds with one stone: Demonstrate the power of the Death Star and wipe out the Alliance.
It's when that plan failed (due to a fluke more than anything) that things changed. Suddenly the Rebels became famous. People flooded to join them. Their numbers grew massively. (One of my friends, watching TESB for the first time, said at the end "where'd they get those ships from" upon seeing the frigate. He was even more surprised when watcing ROTJ and seeing that the Alliance suddenly had a fairly big fleet.)
So I'd say that Palaptine wasn't masterminding things all the time. He was caught out by the first Death Star's destruction, and was then making damn sure that the Rebels would not escape a second time. Which also didn't work. Silly man.
quote:Originally posted by Nim: I remember my CO in "TIE Fighter" warned me not to give verbal commands to Vader's TIE, it was "not wise to try and give orders to a Dark Lord of the Sith".
I bet you tried though, didn't you.
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
quote: I remember my CO in "TIE Fighter" warned me not to give verbal commands to Vader's TIE, it was "not wise to try and give orders to a Dark Lord of the Sith".
Hmm...I remember that playing as Rogue Leader in the Star Wars: Rogue Squadron games, I was always receiving commands from my subordinates...
"Protect the Transports!"
"Destroy the Ties!"
"Don't fire on Civilians!"
"Use the Force!"
...Bastards
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by PsyLiam: So I'd say that Palaptine wasn't masterminding things all the time. He was caught out by the first Death Star's destruction, and was then making damn sure that the Rebels would not escape a second time. Which also didn't work. Silly man.
Well, letting the rebels have accurate blueprints was stupid- one little alteration could have had Lando and Wedge flying into a wall (or a well placed turbolaser).
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
And it sure would make all those dead Bothans feel silly.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Did they actually do the blueprint thing again in Return of the Jedi? I remember them just learning where it was, and that it wasn't finished yet.
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
And that the Emperor was overseeing the construction.
Never use yourself as bait for a trap. Evil overlord rule #238.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
No, that's #239. #238 is "Never park your giant starship in close orbit of your giant space station during a battle- Shit Happens".
Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
It's possible that the Rebels capturing the plans was an accident, and then they decided to use that as an opportunity to hunt down and wipe out the rebels.
I'd say that for ROTJ, the Rebels just used the plans they already had. Sure, it would be a bit different but it would almost certainly have a big power-core thing at the middle that would blow up real good like when shot at.
Pointless extra: The "Many Bothams" line always gets me. Exactly how many is "many"? Because if it's, say, 3, then I'm not exactly going to lie awake at night morning their deaths.
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
Well, knowing the Empire, the entire Bothan homeworld might have been reduced to slag.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I doubt it was that severe....it might have been aBothan "dirty dozen" (complete with an alien Lee Marvin) that sacrificed themselves or some such...
I doubt the Rebels could have used the same plans as the first DS- those plans would not have given locations on where the shield generator was or where all that construction equipment would be (and I just dont buy that Wedge and Lando are good enough pilots to fly through the maze of tunnels without some idea of where they were going besides "down").
Posted by B.J. (Member # 858) on :
The "Shadows of the Empire" novel goes into more detail about the Bothans and the captured plans, but it's been so long since I've read it.
B.J.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Heir to The Empire alludes that the Bothans might have been working for the Empire to set up the Rebels and -onece the rebellion prevailed- they took more credit than they were due and setablished themselves as players in the new senate.
but that could have been Thrawn yanking everyone's chain.
I never followed the books afer that trilogy though (as they got pretty dumb pretty fast).