Flare Sci-Fi Forums: Napster vs. Metallica

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Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :

What's your opinion about MP3/Napster?

Napster recently cut off 300000 members, because Metallica sued (SP!?!? I can pronounce the word, but I've never actually written it...) them. They say that MP3 poses a threat to the music industry

Limp Bizkit, The Offspring and Public Enemy are supporting Napster (YES!!) and PE actually has run a contest in wich yiu can write lyrics concerning MP3 for their new song!

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If you want to get your soul to heaven,
trust in me.
Don't judge or question.
You are broken now,
but faith can heal you.
Just do everything I tell you to do.
Deaf and blind and dumb and born to follow.
Let me lay my holy hand upon you.
-Tool, "Opiate"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Prakesh's Star Trek Site

Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :

Well, distributing MP3s encoded from CDs is pretty much illegal, and hurts the musicians. OTOH, it's not necessarily Napster to blame, and I think they did the right thing in cutting off those members.

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Frank's Home Page
John Flansburgh: "This song is so old that it's actually featured on our brand new record."
John Linnell: "It's one of those year 2000 problems."

Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :

I...

I...

*gack, choke*

I agree with Frank!

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"Nobody knows this, but I'm scared all the time... of what I might do, if I ever let go." -- Michael Garibaldi

Posted by Curry Monster (Member # 12) on :

Well, commercial nonsense aside, its possibly the best program I have ever come across. Losing something like it would be a blow to any kind of free underworld

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"Blind faith is the crutch of fools"

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

Yes, illegal trading of MP3's has so damaged the recording industry that CD sales were up 8% last year.

And some humor: An Open Letter From Metallica.

(And yes, the eight percent figure is just hearsay at the moment, until I can find it again.)

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"Oh, it's an anti-anti-WTO song. It's essentially a pro-Starbucks song. I saw this picture of a guy sticking his foot through a plate-glass window in a Starbucks in Seattle, and he was wearing a Nike. Man, couldn't you just change your shoes?"
--
M. Doughty

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

Look, real figures! Confusing, but anyway. As reported by the Recording Industry Association of America.

The amount of CD's produced increased by 10.8%, from 847 million to 939 million. Sales increased by 12.3%, from 11.4 billion dollars to 12.8 billion.

[This message has been edited by Sol System (edited May 12, 2000).]

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

While I'm at it, a few other resources.

The RIAA's Napster FAQ

Chuck D speaks his mind

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

As many people as were at Woodstock are trading their music, and all they can do is bitch. For some reason, the term "money-hungry morons" comes to mind...

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"The search and the arrest provided several hours of entertainment in the neighborhood."
-"Worm Suspect Arrested", Wired News

Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :

Well, you know, we do have laws. You can change the laws, but you can't break them.

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Frank's Home Page
John Flansburgh: "This song is so old that it's actually featured on our brand new record."
John Linnell: "It's one of those year 2000 problems."

Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :

More people need to copy and rip CDs, so salews will go up. Mp3 is a good thing

Posted by Curry Monster (Member # 12) on :

Well, just because its a law does not mean it is a just one. Now I know people can't go around breaking the law just because it inconveniences them, but as I see it, in cases like this, if companies were to make things more affordable / easier to access people would not bother to go for 'illegal' alternatives.

Either way, all corporations could do with a massive kick up the arse. The idea of the free market is for the consumer to have final control. And guess what, here we are exercising it.

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"Blind faith is the crutch of fools"

Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :

If it's not a just law, then have it changed. That's generally the only valid option.

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Frank's Home Page
John Flansburgh: "This song is so old that it's actually featured on our brand new record."
John Linnell: "It's one of those year 2000 problems."

Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :

I see nothing morally different between trading in music you copied without paying for it, and, say, copying and posting to your site somebody's self-created, long-sweated-over trek images without their permission.

Both are the perview of the people we generally refer to as 'scum.'

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"Nobody knows this, but I'm scared all the time... of what I might do, if I ever let go." -- Michael Garibaldi

Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :

So would now be a good time to admit that I copied Windows 98 off of a friend?

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*Amusing quote not available, please call back later*

Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :

And, thanks to you, software prices are twice what they could be.

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Frank's Home Page
John Flansburgh: "This song is so old that it's actually featured on our brand new record."
John Linnell: "It's one of those year 2000 problems."

Posted by Vacuum robot lady from Spaceballs (Member # 239) on :

Not for him.

Huh huh.

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"Hello and welcome to 'Whose Line Is It Anyway?' The show where everything's made up and the points don't matter - just like a condom to a Trekkie." - Drew Carey, Whose Line Is It Anyway?

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

All of which would be true, if the equation music=software was valid.

However, the RIAA has so far failed to show any qualitative difference between MP3's and cassette tapes. (Ignoring for a moment my apparent inability to remember how to spell cassette...) And cassettes were heralded as the death of music when they were new, with many of the same arguments.

Personally, I disagree with the RIAA that its main goal is to ensure the copyright of the artist. From my point of view, their sole interest is to preserve the Radio/Wal-Mart monolith. When music is distributed outside the traditional corporate structure, it isn't the artists who are hurt, it's the suits.

Now don't get me wrong. I'm free market all the way, baby. I don't even think that the aforementioned "suits" are evil. But they are currently engaged in a business model that is strangling American music. Ultimately, I'd like to see the whole system die a screaming death. But I don't think MP3's or Napster will lead to this, just as cassettes haven't. I'm willing to bet, barring recession or wholesale economic crash, that album sales will continue to rise this year, even with all those mean folks stealing music.

Posted by Curry Monster (Member # 12) on :

lmao. You think they would drop prices if we stopped? Anyway ol chap, that's the whole point. Refuse to pay ludicrous prices. Take the generally used office software. Over here you are looking at $500 for the lot. Bugger me if I A) have that kind of money B) am going to pay for it.

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"Blind faith is the crutch of fools"

Posted by HMS White Star (Member # 174) on :

Well you know it's nice that the RIAA doesn't like folks who break the laws, perhaps they should check there own members first, well because they been bad little boys http://www.rapidcontent.com/radiofreecash/articles.phtml?a=391cab75.4d13.27&c=rollingstone.music_news.ft&d=20000512

Well, Well maybe if the Record companies act using legal pratices maybe I would care a bit more about Napster (btw I was one of the 350,000 people banned from the use of Napster)

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Somehow you were linked to this page, which doesn't really exist. Well, this one does, but the one you were trying to get to doesn't. Actually, that's not really true either, because it probably does, but either you mistyped it or our webmaster is asleep at the wheel. If the later is the case (you were linked here from a page within **********.net) then please let us know.

If you were linked here from an external site, which is most often the case, it would be nice of you to let them know.

Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :

Daryus: Theft is theft.

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Frank's Home Page
John Flansburgh: "This song is so old that it's actually featured on our brand new record."
John Linnell: "It's one of those year 2000 problems."

Posted by Vacuum robot lady from Spaceballs (Member # 239) on :

You should watch Les Miserables, Frank.

Some of us need to burn Windows 98 to feed our starving family as well.

Posted by Curry Monster (Member # 12) on :

Tell me something Frank, if a loaf of bread is overpriced, and a man takes it, would you crucify him? The oh so great market is not forcing the companies to come to an acceptable equilibrium price. Thus the industrious are pivoting within the existing system to achieve their goals. Its nothing new.

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"Blind faith is the crutch of fools"

Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :

Again, breaking the law destroys societies. If you don't like a law, get it changed.

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Frank's Home Page
John Flansburgh: "This song is so old that it's actually featured on our brand new record."
John Linnell: "It's one of those year 2000 problems."

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

Perhaps this is our way of getting it changed. Think about it: MP3 as a form of civil disobedience. *grin*

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"The search and the arrest provided several hours of entertainment in the neighborhood."
-"Worm Suspect Arrested", Wired News

Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :

Uh, that's not how you change laws...you're supposed to call up the members of Congress and complain loudly.

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Frank's Home Page
"We can't really say we feel comfortable in Los Angeles, because we don't." - John Flansburgh

Posted by Curry Monster (Member # 12) on :

Yeah, go through the beaureaucrats. That really works. Nope, if you want it to change you have to do something to make them take notice. Not spend your time holding the line. By the way, you can go ring a congressman, what impact will that have on me over here?

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"Blind faith is the crutch of fools"

Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :

Plus, who am I actually taking money off of? You think that I can afford �300 to but Office 2000? Bugger me if I can.

I, personally, don't think that computer games are overpriced. Look, TIE Fighter cost �40 when it was released. The average price of PC games today is �30-�35. At the start of the 90s, it was �30 for an Amiga game, which had far less manpower behind it. So I'm perfectly willing to pay for PC and Playstation games.

However, don't you think it's strange that the unpiratable cart based systems, such as the N64, have games costing almost twice as much? If no-one's copying them ,how comes they don't cost �20?

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*Amusing quote not available, please call back later*

Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :

"Nope, if you want it to change you have to do something to make them take notice."

Like replace the government.

"Plus, who am I actually taking money off of?"

The people who pay full price for the software.

Computer games don't cost much because their target market is consumers, not businesses.

People do copy N64 games to use for ROM emulators.

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Frank's Home Page
"We can't really say we feel comfortable in Los Angeles, because we don't." - John Flansburgh

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

"'Plus, who am I actually taking money off of?'
The people who pay full price for the software."

Well, sometimes it's costly to follow your morals. I guess you'll just have to consider it a victory in principle...

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"The search and the arrest provided several hours of entertainment in the neighborhood."
-"Worm Suspect Arrested", Wired News

Posted by Curry Monster (Member # 12) on :

Here's an idea. Since you're so set on paying, have a monimal fee. Say $10. For business charge, for personal use....don't.

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"Blind faith is the crutch of fools"

Posted by Saiyanman Benjita (Member # 122) on :

Sorry buddies, but I'm gonna have to side with Frank on this one. The whole reason we have these laws is to protect everybody. That includes the consumers. The theft of copyrighted material hurts the Company and the Dealer (who have to sell 50 units for each unit stolen to break even), It hurts the consumer (Paying $800-$1000 for Office 2000, when it could cost only $200-$300), and it hurts the Economy.

And... Did you ever notice... Most people who are caught stealing, aren't stealing things they need? You don't necessarily need to download the latest Metallica song (mostly because Metallica sux), You don't really need Office 2000 (It would be nice, but you don't need it.). Theft of copyrighted material causes prices to skyrocket.

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Well I'm a Bada$$ cowboy living in a cowboy day wicky-wicky-wak yo yo bang bang
me and Artemus Clydefrog go save Selma Hayek from the big metal spider
Wicky-wicky-wak wicky-wicky-wicky-wak
Bada$$ cowboy from the West Si-yiide

Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :

That's because in this day and age, virtually no one NEEDS to steal anything to survive, at least not in our enlightened western capitalistic cultures (where some people make more in a day BEGGING than I do working). The culture that bred events like those depicted in "Les Miserables" is no longer prevalent, nobody NEEDS to steal a loaf of bread anymore.

It's a simple matter of greed, and the rationalizations I've heard in this thread trying to cover that are intensely amusing.

"I'm not willing to pay that much for this!"
"Then do without it."
"But... I WAAAAAAAAAAAAAANT it!"

Crybabies.

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"Nobody knows this, but I'm scared all the time... of what I might do, if I ever let go." -- Michael Garibaldi

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

Yes, well... If the people we're hurting are those who pay full price for the stuff, and those people don't need the things they're paying full price for, we're not really hurting them. Sounds like any moral dilemma there was just went right out the window... :-)

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"The search and the arrest provided several hours of entertainment in the neighborhood."
-"Worm Suspect Arrested", Wired News

Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :

TSN, that made no sense. First of Two is entirely correct, IMNSHO. You want stuff that you can't afford, or don't want to pay for, and are trying to pretend that you're different from any other thief.

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Frank's Home Page
"We can't really say we feel comfortable in Los Angeles, because we don't." - John Flansburgh

Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :

Need I remind everyone that getting something without having to pay for it was one of the prime motivators behind the creation of the "I Love You" virus?

Not to mention Insurance Fraud (which only costs the rest of us about 50% of what we pay in insurance, because big companies pass losses, even PROJECTED, HYPOTHETICAL losses, on to the other consumers).

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"Nobody knows this, but I'm scared all the time... of what I might do, if I ever let go." -- Michael Garibaldi

[This message has been edited by First of Two (edited May 16, 2000).]

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

Frank: What I'm pointing out is this... According to what was said here, the companies aren't "hurting" people by raising prices, because the software/music in question isn't a necessity of life. If someone doesn't like the price, they're free to do without. By that same principle, if pirating software/music causes prices to go up, the piraters aren't hurting anyone any more than the companies. So where is the moral obligation to not pirate?

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"The search and the arrest provided several hours of entertainment in the neighborhood."
-"Worm Suspect Arrested", Wired News

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

Erm, I just want to say that while I'm all for burning down the offices of record executives, my devotion to the cause is related to the very specific nature of the music business, and as such my views don't carry over to whatever issue X you'd like to raise.

Just so that when Gates' private detachment of Swiss Guard comes looking for TSN, they'll leave me alone.

Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :

TSN: It's still against the law. If people don't obey the law, society collapses.

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Frank's Home Page
"We can't really say we feel comfortable in Los Angeles, because we don't." - John Flansburgh

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

Like I said, civil disobedience. :-)

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"The search and the arrest provided several hours of entertainment in the neighborhood."
-"Worm Suspect Arrested", Wired News

Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :

That's just a euphemism for "breaking the law."

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Frank's Home Page
"We can't really say we feel comfortable in Los Angeles, because we don't." - John Flansburgh

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

Oh, well. M.L. King and M.K. Gandhi were criminals, then, but what are you going to do about it? :-)

And, yes, I know that's not the same thing. Don't anyone go exploding over the comparison between civil rights and software piracy. And I know someone out there is thinking about it. So don't. :-�

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"The search and the arrest provided several hours of entertainment in the neighborhood."
-"Worm Suspect Arrested", Wired News

Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :

Both Gandhi and King spent time in jail, too, IIRC.

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Frank's Home Page
"We can't really say we feel comfortable in Los Angeles, because we don't." - John Flansburgh

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

Yes, but does that mean they should have?

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"The search and the arrest provided several hours of entertainment in the neighborhood."
-"Worm Suspect Arrested", Wired News

Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :

Why shouldn't they?

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Frank's Home Page
"We can't really say we feel comfortable in Los Angeles, because we don't." - John Flansburgh

Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :

"In no sense do I advocate evading or defying the law...that would lead to anarchy. One who breaks an unjust law must do so openly, lovingly, and with a willingness to accept the penalty." - Dr. Martin Luther King, writing from Birmingham prison in April, 1967.

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Frank's Home Page
"We can't really say we feel comfortable in Los Angeles, because we don't." - John Flansburgh

Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :

And those Jews who were breaking the law in Nazi Germany? Eh?

(Normally, I object to the old "Oh yeah? you want to bring back Hitler, you do" argument, but I'm nothing if not a hypocrite)

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*Amusing quote not available, please call back later*

Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :

Well, this all assumes you want to live in whatever country we're discussing.

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Frank's Home Page
"We can't really say we feel comfortable in Los Angeles, because we don't." - John Flansburgh