Obviously, the Roman Empire was dealt a massive blow after the death of Marcus Aurelius in AD 180. The 12-year reign of Commodus & the 5? 6? emperors in the year following his death wasn't exactly a "happy time." Would you peg this as the beginnign of the end of the Empire? What other events might y'all point to? And yeah, Christianity's rise counts.
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"Deviance is not tailored suits or computer geeks/Pierced tongues or sex freaks/love for hire under dirty sheets/I have lived and breathed you...." --Vanessa Daou, "Deviate"
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And by the way, I faked all the orgasms.
Leslie Nielsen, in "Room With A View With A Staircase In A Pond"
This, in combination with the now powerful unified barbarian tribes like the Goths and Franks, not to mention the Huns, was the beginnings of a less than all-powerful Empire. Adrianople opened the floodgates allowing the other Goths and such to enter.
The Military was, I believe, the key component to the downfall. Religion & Crazy Emperors surely contributed, but those alone the Empire probably could've withstood.
I think.
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"...you know, Omega, there's a phrase you might want to look up. It goes something like "paranoid arrogant fuckwit who has more chance of ejaculating to the moon than he has of ever convincing a girl that he's a viable prospect for marriage." -PsyLiam, September 16, 2000 10:23 PM.
And I thought you were talking about Gladiator......
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"My Name is Elmer Fudd, Millionaire. I own a Mansion and a Yacht."
Psychiatrist: "Again."
To me Diocletian represents the last great Roman Emperor. Diocletian recognized that the empire was too large and complex to be ruled by only a single emperor and instituted the Tetrarchy, or Rule by Four. At the time of his abdication in 305 AD, he had basicly split the Empire when he selected Maximinus as Caesar in the east and Severus as Caesar in the west. A clear signal that Rome, while still mighty was in decline.
While Constantine represents the transformation to the Byzantine with his legalization and support of Christianity and his foundation of a new capital at Byzantium.
Either way, they represent the last impossible hopes of holding an already crumbling Empire together...the last gasps of the Augustinian Principate.
In a very real way, the death of Augustus signaled the beginning of the end of the Empire. Seriously. None of the other people who followed in the shadow of his purple robe had the skills or the ability to make the office what he intended it to be.
quote:
Furthermore, none of his cardinal powers were conferred for life but, rather, for fixed periods of five or (later) ten years. That these powers were never rescinded when they came up for renewal is entirely beside the point: there was the illusion of choice. That is what mattered. The vocabulary Augustus chose to express his power, too, was a model of tact: "leading citizen" (princeps) not dictator, "authoritative influence" (auctoritas) not "command" (imperium). Throw into the equation his modest lifestyle, affable approachability, routine consultation of the senate, and genuinely impressive work ethic, and we have in Augustus one of the greatest and most skillfully manipulative politicians of any nation in any age.
Titles like chief priest (pontifex maximus) and "Father of his Country" (pater patriae) were voted by the Senate...even though under the guise of real power.
And yet, all too soon after Augustus, what became a game of tact and influence bacame one of naked ambition, assassinations, and raw military power. Certainly not in keeping with the traditions of the Republic that Augustus had wanted.
He alone of the Emperors preserved the illusion that the Republic might still return. A very important tradition to a people who thrived on tradition. It might be argued that the further that Rome moved away from the ideals of the Republic the closer it came to it's eventual downfall.
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This is a place of business, not a peewee flopphouse!
~C. Montgomery Burns
[This message has been edited by Jay (edited October 01, 2000).]
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Don't forget, I faked all the orgasms.
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"Sweetness, sweetness I was only joking
When I said I'd like to smash every tooth
In your head"
Bigmouth Strikes Again- The Smiths
I ask this because I'm looking at writing an alternate history of the world...where Rome survives, thrives, & rules all. I'm also looking at writing stories based in the Renegade Legion timeline. That was a fun little RPG set in 6830...basically, "Rome in space."
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"Deviance is not tailored suits or computer geeks/Pierced tongues or sex freaks/love for hire under dirty sheets/I have lived and breathed you...." --Vanessa Daou, "Deviate"
And thanks for the info guys, I'll use it as best I can.
About Hannibal, when I first saw the promos for "Silence Of The Lambs II" I thought it was a "Gladiator"-movie but with Hannibal. Would've been cool...
Was it Sun Tsu or Confucius that said "Imperialism is the last stage of capitalism"? I've always linked that to the romans and Palpatine's Empire.
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And don't forget, I faked all the orgasms.
[This message has been edited by Nimrod (edited October 01, 2000).]
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"...you know, Omega, there's a phrase you might want to look up. It goes something like "paranoid arrogant fuckwit who has more chance of ejaculating to the moon than he has of ever convincing a girl that he's a viable prospect for marriage." -PsyLiam, September 16, 2000 10:23 PM.
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"If the rope is a quarter of a Zeuslength in size, then the Defiant shalt most naturally be seven times the thirty-second part of a Zeuslength?"
-Boris Skrbic, 27-Sep-2000
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"Life sucks, then you die"
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Jeff's Webcam
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From the dawn of toys we came, living secretly among your cherished treasures, moving through the toy chests, until the time of the Gathering, when those who remain will battle for the prize. In the end, there can be only one ... LEGOLANDER!
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Gore/Lieberman 2000
I read the first book of the WWII-thing with alien interference, "World War: In The Balance" I think. Pretty good, maybe I'll continue.
Loved the detailed info about the German/Russian/Alien Tank-battles.
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Don't forget, I faked all the orgasms.
I share the sentiments Cicero, among other men and great orators at the end of the Republic. A despot, no matter how great or tactful, is still inferior to a republic. Furthermore, with every Caesar comes a Caligula.
It took until who, Mr. Jefferson, for someone to realize this again?
{Salutes his former state flag, which proudly bears "Sic Sempter Tyrannus"}
quote:
romans keep supressing Christianity and promoting Jupiter&Co?
{Cough, cough!} That's a bunch of hooey propaganda. The Romans alowed free practice of Religion, as long as one pleged allegaince to the Emperor. Any other stories you heard were myth (the infamous Nero fables) or exagerated (many Biblical stories).
Heck, the Romans were about to industrialize when at their peak. Most people don't know they had a crude steam engine device, used as a toy, though.
In other words, it took till the 19th century for civilization to get back to where Rome once was; fully.
Lastly, Magnus, I lvoe the quote. Where did that happen? I haven't been able to get around the boards as much lately.
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-Small Computer Systems Interface "Scuzzy" Emperor
Operator of the Goulag Hotel, maintainer of the workhouses.
Operator of Cargill Conglomerate Publications, http://www.cargillconglomerate.com
"Woman is deprived of rights from lack of education, and the lack of education results from the absence of rights. We must not forget that the subjection of women is so complete, and dates from such distant ages, that we are often unwilling to recognize the gulf that separates them from us."
Tolstoy, on a more objective note.
[This message has been edited by SCSImperium (edited October 01, 2000).]
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Intelligence, Integrity, Responsibility.
Vote Bush/Cheney 2000
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"...you know, Omega, there's a phrase you might want to look up. It goes something like "paranoid arrogant fuckwit who has more chance of ejaculating to the moon than he has of ever convincing a girl that he's a viable prospect for marriage." -PsyLiam, September 16, 2000 10:23 PM.
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Don't forget, I faked all the orgasms.
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"Deviance is not tailored suits or computer geeks/Pierced tongues or sex freaks/love for hire under dirty sheets/I have lived and breathed you...." --Vanessa Daou, "Deviate"
[This message has been edited by Shik (edited October 02, 2000).]
Since I feel that the Roman Question has been adequately dealt with above, I shall endeavour to answer the secondary question, where my expertise truly lies: Books on Alternate Histories.
(A concept of which I am a great fan)
All of these I have read, and recommend:
"How Few Remain" -- Harry Turtledove's story of the SECOND War between the states. ("Guns of the South") was not really a prequel to this, and is more of a fantasy/time-travel story. I don't generally include these.
"The Great War: American Front"
"The Great War: Walk in Hell"
"The Great War: Breakthroughs" -- the first three novels in Turtledove's 4-novel Alternate WWI, based on the events of "How Few Remain." US-Germany vs. CSA-UK-France, with a Black communist rebellion in the CSA thrown in for good measure.
"Moon of Ice" -- Brad Lineweaver,s novel of nazi victory in WWII.
"Hitler Victorious" -- A collection of Nazi victory tales, some more fantasy than others. The "Captain America" one is the most fun, I think.
"What If?" described above.
"What If" -- A drier, more historical look by military historians as to how different decisions and outcomes during WWII might have changed the course of the war... or not.
"What Might Have Been, Vol. I-IV, -- edited by Gregory Benford and Bob Greenberg, a voluminous collection of alternaty stories from dozen of authors.
"Alternate Presidents"
"Alternate Outlaws"
"Alternate Warriors"
"Alternate Kennedys"
"Alternate Tyrants" -- ed. Mike Resnik. More collections of stories by various authors.
Number of the Beast" & "Job: A Comedy of Justice" -- Robert Heinlein. Although not truly 'Alternate Universe' stories in their entirety, each visits several interesting 'Alternate' worlds, and "Job" is worth reading as satire and for its religious discussion alone.
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"Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ty Kwan Leap. Approach me, that you might see." -- The Master
quote:
"Alternate Kennedys"
LOL, if it weren't for Mayor Daley stuffing the vote box in the 1960 election, the Kennedys would be little known nobodies. Or maybe that's what the book deals with ...
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-Small Computer Systems Interface "Scuzzy" Emperor
Operator of Cargill Conglomerate Publications, http://www.cargillconglomerate.com
"Socialists? They are industrious, commercial people; �the happiness of all� is their case. No, life is only given to me once and I shall never have it again; I don�t want to wait for �the happiness of all.� I want to live myself, or else better not live at all. I simply couldn�t pass by my mother starving, keeping my rouble in my pocket while I waited for the �happiness of all.� I am putting my little brick into the happiness of all and so my heart is at peace.
-Dostoevsky
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"Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ty Kwan Leap. Approach me, that you might see." -- The Master