Many of you know that I once used to go to the University of Toronto when I first started posting here. Others will see that at some point in time, I completed a college diploma.
What happened here? First I was in University, and now I have a college diploma? To make things blunt, I crashed and burned horribly, cracked under the pressure, etcetera. They say that it takes two U-of-T students to screw in a lightbulb, one to screw it in, and the other to crack under the pressure (that was me). After three or more years of toiling in classes without any benefit of learning (or without any beneficial grades), I decided to switch gears and obtain a diploma at a Technical College (which also wasn't easy). I haven't been taking University classes for about three years now.
Mind you, my grades aren't that bad, it's just that the requirements for a degree in Computer Science are quite high. Until recently, when I spoke to an Academic Counsellor.
It would appear that I almost have enough courses to satisfy requirements for a three-year degree in Computer Science and Mathematics. I have the requisite marks, and most of the course requirements have been met, save for a single Math course that I would be taking come September.
The general requirements for the Specialist, four-year degree in Computer Science has also changed (due to funding increases, grants, and a brand spanking new building). Most of the prerequisites have been relaxed, meaning that all I would have to do is to have a good final year in University to graduate with that degree.
There are several factors that are weighing in on my possible academic future: - During the past few months, my job picture was looking pretty bleak, which was when I had decided to go back to University. But now, in the last two weeks, I've had several job interviews, most of them favourable. - During said few months when I was deciding to go back to University, I applied for Financial Aid. Normally, I would have to take on a $10,000 debt (classes, living expenses, etc), but then I received a notice that I would be getting a $5000 grant. It would perhaps be a one time thing, something I'm not sure if I want to turn down. - I have other aspirations for my career such as taking certifications such as Oracle, MCSA, Java, etc. Finishing off with a three year degree would give me time and take the pressure off to pursue those avenues. - Double-Cohort. Due to restructuring of the Education System, the High School Curriculum has been reduced from 5 years to 4. That means that one year would see twice the amount of students going to their first year in University. That year is now. That being said, it may pump up the requirements for the 4-year Computer Science Degree up a significant amount, though I cannot say how much. The last thing I would want to see happen is to go back full-time, have a decent year in University, but due to demand, have the requirements increase once again beyond my reach (the possible "all-for-nothing" scenario). - Even if I have a three-year degree, I still have leave to "Upgrade" to a four-year later on. Theoretically, I could finish off the three-year, graduate, then still take part-time courses to upgrade to a four-year, but it also depends on how the requirements for the four-year degree change. - Obviously, Job prospects may be better for a four-year degree than a three, but that doesn't mean that it's THAT bad. - Finally, to be blunt: I hate taking University Classes and would prefer to work instead (or if any classes, practical classes such as the MCSA and the like, not more of the damned theory that they shove down our throats). And I'm also afraid of crashing and burning once again. Obviously, I only need once course to take for a three-year, so that's manageable.
I'm stuck in a bit of a bind, and are having a wee bit of trouble making up my mind. A little assistance would be appreciated. Thanks!!!
Posted by Cartmaniac (Member # 256) on :
Having a favorable interview and actually being hired are unfortunately far from analogous still.
My advice? Don't focus too much on any single direction. You can get those Oracle/Java/whatever certifications later, and you have a diploma to fall back on, so what's the rush? The Master Plan isn't going anywhere.
Look, you're almost a CS graduate. The requirements might change, they might not. You've got a scholarship that covers half the tuition fee NOW. Don't throw those things away yet. Yeah, the classes are theoretical and they suck, but it's only for one year, and you'll have more options available to you with that degree in your pocket. And if somehow you should drop out, you won't be off any worse, just older and maybe a little disillusioned. But you'd know where you stand in life.
Anyway, don't think of this as the be all & end all choice. It's not.
[ August 25, 2003, 05:49 PM: Message edited by: Cartmaniac ]
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
I'd strongly suggest going for the four-year degree. Even if things don't turn out as you want and the requirements are increased due to the demand you described, I think it would be well worth it.
You say you've got a couple of possible job prospects. That's not bad, especially considering the economy these days... but theoretically (as far as I know, anyway), having a four-year degree under your belt will be helpful even if you're not using what you learned in school. Basically, some employers require that because of the basic study/work skills and discipline that are acquired during that time. It's an achievement that may not mean anything concerning specific knowledge, but at least it's something you can point to on your r�sum�.
At the very least, I hope you go for completing the three-year requirements. I think that either way, it'd be a good thing.
I know very well what it's like to crash and burn... I did that myself about two and a half years ago. Now, I'm about to enter my final year at the University of Delaware to complete my B.A. in History.
Good luck! Posted by Grokca (Member # 722) on :
Great story to read just before I drop my daughter off at UoT. Better make sure she knows how to screw in a lightbulb before she goes.
Posted by Saltah'na (Member # 33) on :
Cartman: I'm not sure if you've taken into account the Three-year Degree and the option to upgrade to a Four.
I've been disillusioned before, and believe me, it is not nice. It would hurt me pretty badly (but not surprisingly) if this would add to my string of shortcomings and failures in life. Which is why I do not want to pin too much hope on it right now, grant or no grant. This fact is also giving me pause to wonder if I am really ready to go back to school full-time, and believe me, I'm not sure if I am. The engine is not fully tuned, and rather having it blow in the sky, sometimes prudence may be the better option.
There is one thing to clarify about that grant (NOT a scholarship, I don't have much say on where the money goes): Part of this grant comes from the Ontario Student Opportunities fund, the other from the Canadian Millenium Bursary. While the Canadian Bursary is strictly for tuition, the Ontario Student Opportunities Fund can either be used to fund upcoming tuition, or to pay off an existing loan, which I have from the Technical College. Even if I do not go back to school, I can still walk away with at $2000 towards my present debt. Either way, I do not touch the money, you could say it is solely for debt relief.
So far, I've signed up for that single Math course, that would qualify me for that 3-year degree. I can add more later, then send the paperwork to the Financial Aid office. The Academic Counsellor I spoke to believes that it is in my better interest to simply take the three year degree. I really don't have to go into specifics of that degree other than the fact that it is simply a Bachelor of Science, and that only the high level companies would ask if it was four years, and the marks I have received. She also mentioned that having both a degree and a diploma, along with some certifications I already have under my belt, constitute a great deal of ammunition towards the job front. Add to that the fact that the door to a 4-year degree is not closed entirely means that I may still have a chance later on.
As for the job front, I received a call after I posted my initial message which mentioned that I have been offered a contract position at the head office at a Major bank. Two month contract, with the possibility of going full time. Of course, my experience with Contract Positions is also less than favourable (the full time portion never seems to work out). Oy, these decisions are giving me a royal pain in the noggin.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Any chance you could hedge your bets, then? Would your schedule let you take the Math class *and* the job offer? (I'm guessing no, but many of the bigger universities offer nighttime classes.)
When I went back to school after taking a year and a half off, I started out slow, too. I took just one or two classes in the evenings in the winter, spring, and summer semesters, and then moved in full-time last fall. I think it worked out pretty well that way.
Posted by Saltah'na (Member # 33) on :
If I gave up the prospect of taking full time classes, yes, the class IS nighttime. But then, I'd have to give up the rest of the grant.
Keep in mind, I'm still working at Staples, and I was to receive more hours since an associate has just quit. I think I should have mentioned this before, sorry bout that....
Posted by Warped1701 (Member # 40) on :
I would personally go for the degree, whether you decide on the three or four year is up to you. I know that college can be tough, as I had my own pitfalls and roller-coaster semesters. There were days where all I wanted to do was just forget the whole deal, but I didn't. A BA, or in your case, a BS may just be a piece of paper in a fancy cover, but when you have it you know that you paid your dues for it.
No one else did the work, put in the time, and busted their ass for years (in my case 5) for my diploma. I can look at it and know that I did it, and no one can take that away from me. Though I swore to myself I wouldn't have one of those stupid grins on my face after I recieved my diploma and went walking down the aisle, I knew I did anyway. While I looked at my high school diploma and could only think "I wasted four years for this?" I look at my BA with pride. Of course, YMMV.
Posted by Saltah'na (Member # 33) on :
That was the whole point. The only question is, should I just try for the single course and finish it off now while I am still working, or should I drop everything and go full tilt on the full year?
The job opportunities mentioned earlier would pay me about minimum $25,000/year, Canadian, of course. I only get $8/hr at Staples, which of course isn't much. Which is why I was planning to scale back my hours, get a big loan, and go back to University. Then I have the above situation mentioned.
Posted by Balaam Xumucane (Member # 419) on :
It comes down to which accomplishment will mean more ultimately: working a few more hours stocking shelves and hawking paperclips at Staples or having a very useful degree in your field of interest (which tends to be fiercely competitive and generally does not require one to wear that ridiculous red apron)?
Posted by Saltah'na (Member # 33) on :
Er, not really. It's more like whether or not if I should risk another year for better opportunities despite the fact that I have some decent ones right now.
They both mean something, one may have more payoff, but is it worth the risk? Given my previous situations, it's a crapshoot at best.
Posted by Cartmaniac (Member # 256) on :
I can't speak for you or for anyone else here, but from my perspective, education is ALWAYS worth the risk. Don't fixate on what MIGHT happen.
"Always his mind on the future, this one. Never his mind on where he is. What he is doing."
[ August 26, 2003, 05:57 AM: Message edited by: Cartmaniac ]
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Agreed. Go for the four-year degree. Posted by Balaam Xumucane (Member # 419) on :
quote:Originally posted by Saltah'na: They both mean something, one may have more payoff, but is it worth the risk? Given my previous situations, it's a crapshoot at best.
Actually no, one doesn't mean much other than subsistence. What do you want to tell people at the end of the year: I wore an apron or I finished my degree? One of these is moving your life forward and that's something you will never regret. A CS degree is not a basketweaving degree or a liberal-arts degree. If you want to be earning big cash working IT at some point, having that degree in your pocket is going to go a LOT further than a few more months at Staples
If it's short-term money that's an issue, see about working as a computer lab monitor at the school. My exgf did that and spent most of her time working on homework while earning a little do-re-mi.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 24) on :
Man... Everyone picks on the basketweavers. When will they finally get the respect they deserve? Posted by Saltah'na (Member # 33) on :
Problems....
I talked to the CS academic counsellor today and he mentioned several things:
1) Some of the courses that I have under my belt no longer qualify for graduation in their 4-year program, but can still stick to the three year degree. I would need more than one year back at school just to satisfy the modified requirements. As he says, the field of Computer Science is continually changing. 2) The requirements will surely change this year, "substantially" to quote the counsellor, due to the double-cohort. Specifically, the CGPA will probably rise to a point where I would need to pull of Straight A's in order to qualify. He says this on the basis of my marks (which I won't reveal). This year may not be a good year to go back to school, but the year after next might.
He does mention a special "upgrade program" for students who graduated with a three-year degree where they offer modified courses to bring previous students up to speed. So far, every academic official I've spoken to has recommended I take the three year degree and upgrade later, perhaps when the double cohort has finished their second year of classes.
It seems the academics are recommending I go for the three year degree while everyone else says I should risk a full time year. And Royal Bank is asking for a reply on their offer. Oh boy.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
I'd go with the academics. They have experience and knowledge of the specifics involved, for the course in general, and the special requirements for this year. That makes them much more qualified to offer an opinion.
quote:Originally posted by Saltah'na: Specifically, the CGPA will probably rise to a point where I would need to pull of Straight A's in order to qualify. He says this on the basis of my marks (which I won't reveal).
I think we managed to fight through the web of complexity and work out that you haven't got straight-As, so again, I'd say go with what they suggest.
Posted by Ultra Magnus (Member # 239) on :
At least there is a market for Computer Science students.
Someday soon, I will be envious of the Squeegee kids on Younge street.
Posted by Cartmaniac (Member # 256) on :
I'm obviously no academic. But I have had my share of dealings with counsellors. They're not infallible. I'm not saying you shouldn't weigh their recommendations carefully, but placing blind faith in them might not be the best idea, either.
I don't know the details of the course reqs, but I can't believe they'd be yanked up so much that the fourth year would be seven billion times harder than the previous three. I'd ask some hard questions re: the substantial part.
Posted by Tora Regina (Member # 53) on :
I say you should take the bank job, take the one class for the 3-year degree and worry about the rest later. A year in school is a long time for someone who doesn't want to be there, as I can tell you. And as I've heard from more people than I can count, you'll learn more on the job, actually doing the work, than you will in an artificial school setting. Plus you will find out if you actually need that 4-year degree or not, and you can always go back and get it if you do. Add to it the fact that most people change careers at least 3 times in their lifetime; you may be doing something entirely different ten years from now and not need that degree anymore. Lastly (but perhaps it should be first), ask yourself how you feel about going back to school full-time and how you feel about staying in the workplace. If you feel an untraceable dread (as in you can't figure out where it's coming from), that road is probably not a good idea.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
That's dependant upon what one is studying, though. I mean, I imagine one could learn more about hotel management or stock trading or even networking by doing it. Just as much, maybe, at least. And the idea that a degree means a job is, of course, iffy at best.
I'm not so sure that that's the real value of such an education. I mean, sure, if I wanted to get some sort of technical certification, that would be a different story. But it seems to me that one of the values, and I think the primary one, of a college or university education (These are seperate things in Canada? It's like a foreign country to me.) isn't a specific set of knowledge to be plugged into some future job. It's a skill set, a framework that makes the further assimilation of knowledge much easier. And this is not something I think can be easily found anywhere else.
However, this is an opinion based completely on my own experience, interest, and aptitudes, and I don't know how useful it is to anyone else.
Posted by Saltah'na (Member # 33) on :
And so drives the final nail in the coffin.
I've just received a phone call from a company offering me a job doing technical support. $26,000/year including benefits. I guess my decision is made then.
But thanks for your opinions anyways. I was considering full time if I still hadn't obtained a steady job, but I guess that is moot then.
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