http://solareclipse.net/Forums/Forum4/HTML/000096.html
Load time on part I was getting a bit long...
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So where were we....
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�������������-The Breen at Internment Camp 371
We have so many guns that kill people! Think about it. That would make every gun owner, every hunter or such, a potential homicidal maniac. They have a gun, and since GUNS kill people, by that logic it makes them far more likely to kill someone. I say bull***t.
So, the argument that if you have a gun you are more likely to kill someone is bullshit? It makes sense to me.
And as I've said, the UK, France and Australia are pretty diverse countries too. And how many deaths a year are there from handguns in these countries?
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'Those are the headlines. Happy now?'
-Chris Morris.
How many deaths come from other weapons besides guns? I stand by my point that if it is not the guns, it'll be something else.
If guns were banned, you'd have a huge rise in violent deaths with other weapons. that is what I'm trying to say.
UK, France, Australia, they may be diverse,but not as much as we are. Plus, you also have to realize we have a far larger population.
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Jeff Raven - Having more fun than any human being should be allowed to have
True, if it's not guns, it'll be another weapon. Hopefully a less effecient, less lethal weapon with a shorter range that's harder to obtain. You may have a rise in violent deaths by other weapons. Hopefully though, the rise will be much smaler than the dropin the number of weapons caused by guns.
Do you know how much harder it is to kill someone with a knife? Psychologically, it is much harder to get into close-range with someone else and physically stab or beat them than it is to stand from a distance and pull a trigger.
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'Those are the headlines. Happy now?'
-Chris Morris.
There you go. Might not be as easy as a gun, but it could be more effective, and easily made.
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Jeff Raven - Having more fun than any human being should be allowed to have
Or have their overseas buddies send in a few hundred with the next coke shipment.
Or they might just use any of the myriad other weapons that are already illegal to use, like, say.. pipe bombs. It's easy to kill at a distance with a pipe bomb or other explosives. How about molotov cocktails? Easy to make, and you can get alcohol, kerosene, or gasoline just about anywhere. And they can kill a lot of people.
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*I only SEEM Normal*
Yeah, and if dog poop was gold, my new puppy Ceilidh would make me a rich man.
Your likelihood of achieving this goal, even with a total ban on civilian ownerships of guns, is precisely nil, for reasons stated above. Thusly, it's a waste of time speculating about it.
"There are no armies armed with only knives..."
There are no armies armed with only guns, either. Most, into combat, carry both. Plus things a lot worse.
Beyond that...
Consider the fact that it's become obvious that the killers were planning to blow up the school. They made a propane bomb to accomplish just this task. As well as at least 32 other bombs.
Supposing they had simply not shot anybody, but had instead blown up the bomb/s in the middle of the cafeteria during lunch hour.
That would have killed a lot more than 15 people.
And I'd be willing to bet that NOBODY who is currently calling for a gun ban would be here calling for greater restrictions on the purchase of propane.
Much in the same way that I don't see any of them clamoring for restrictions on the purchase of fertilizer and fuel oil (remember Oklahoma City?)
[This message was edited by First of Two on April 23, 1999.]
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*I only SEEM Normal*
Changing the U.S. Constitution would require a constitutional convention. Do you have any idea what sort of wacko ideas about the Constitution exist these days? Open it to change, and you have no idea what kind of garbage will be tossed in. How about that flag burning amendment, eh? And that fifth amendment...only someone guilty would use that, right? Or any other number of blatently unconstitutional things that people will try to push through? I have no desire to let the current political culture get its hands on the most important document in the United States.
Actually, I guess I'm already in the thread, so...why not embarrass myself further?
One thing I think we can all agree upon is that these children should not have had those guns. Whether you think the rest of the population should or not, we all can say that irrational people certainly shouldn't.
People do not exist in a vacuum. There were plenty of warning signs, as has been discussed on other threads. Steps need to be taken to ensure that these types of people do not have access to weapons. That doesn't involve taking weapons away from everyone.
Is that an option? Well, yes. It's one I personally find distasteful, but the truth is usually based on something other then my opinion. I do think that the guns themselves are merely a surface issue, though, and while part of the problem are not necessarily its source.
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"It was sweet, like lead paint's sweet, but the aftereffects left me paralyzed."
--
They Might Be Giants
Anyway, I just can't resist posting on this subject :-) I think guns should be allowed to anyone that is fit to own one...as in, innocent people who are not depressed or have mental illnesses and the like.
It's amazing how so many of the morals and such have declined in the US recently...I'm just 14 years old, but I can tell from history and the current News that things have radically changed. In a previous posting somewhere in this thread, someone mentioned that you didn't hear about things like the Colorado incident even as little as 20 years ago. But the mentality of the people has decreased to such a low level that people don't have support from anywhere...that could drive anyone mad, especially teenagers, who are going through many changes, esp. emotional ones, in the process of becomming adults. It seems that so many people just don't want to bother to even get to know anyone else, and talk negatively to poeple all the time. This DOES affect people, especially ones that are trying to 'grow up' emotionally...they recieve negative stuff all the time, and they don't learn any other way to act. No wonder they get depressed and go out shooting people...news reports say that the two shooters in Colorado hated Everybody, according to their classmates. And mainly for teasing, because they weren't wanted, and were thought of as 'weird.' I agree that they may have been, but considering how much they talked about guns, Hitler, and war games, that would seem to be enough to tip someone off that they needed help...maybe it did and the person just didn't CARE enough to do anything about it?
Anyway, this is just a small part of my opinions on the matter of gun control and the Second Amendment...if all the websites on the Internet talked about nothing but this issue, there would still be no discussion and no agreements about most things! It's good to know opinions though...although it is very hard to convince someone to change their opinion. Just look...there have been some great posts arguing both sides in this thread and in the first one on this subject here. Among the people that have posted multiple times, has ANY SINGLE ONE person changed their opinion? As of this post, there have been NONE. Zero. Zip. Naught. Nada. And this is a HUGE thread...hundreds of posts, coming from both sides, many of them long and thought out!
All I can do is give my opinion, and hope that everyone can become informed on both sides of the issues, since it's hard to do that through news bias or through any commercial source, since there is bias involved. All the opinions here seem to be truthful and sound, at least from the point of view of the beliefs of the poster.
I'll stop now since I've spent more time at this site than I have at any site in a LONG time...and I have other stuff to do! But I hope that I remember to come back, it's a great place!
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~David - [email protected]
STREK Network @ Network.STrek.com
Including: www.TrekSites.com - www.STrek.com - www.ufk.org
'About the Ox?'
'About everything damnit!'
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'Those are the headlines. Happy now?'
-Chris Morris.
One tidbit I heard is that it was especially easy for these teenagers to get guns. They only had to fill out the right paperwork. I don't know how easy that is compared to other places, but that sounds easy to me.
You have to wonder what goes on in those little towns out there, though. I haven't heard of large, organized gang shootings like that in Los Angeles or New York or other big cities. *knocks on wood*
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"I have come to the conclusion that one man is called a disgrace, that two are called a law firm, and that three on the law become a congress! And by God I have had this Congress!"
--John Adams, "1776"
I saw on the news today that one of the girls that was killed, was shoot because she wouldn't renounce god. A witness saw them tell her they wouldn't shoot her if she renounced god, she refused, they shoot her. If I understood corrcetly, she was a former member of their group.
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BRAVES FAN
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"I have come to the conclusion that one man is called a disgrace, that two are called a law firm, and that three on the law become a congress! And by God I have had this Congress!"
--John Adams, "1776"
It is a big-time felony to sell long guns (rifles, shotguns) to anyone under eighteen.
Where did these teens get the guns? Did an irresponsible dealer sell them to these kids? Did irresponsible parents give firearms to these (legal) children? Did these kids go out & buy them on the black market?
These guys were into a whole boatload of illegal stuff.If no-one noticed something was going on, they were deaf, dumb, and blind or in deep, dark denial.
--Baloo
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Dogged persistence is often a suitable substitute for raw intelligence.
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'Those are the headlines. Happy now?'
-Chris Morris.
And, as I stated elsewhere, only one of the weapons thay they used was even legal to own in the first place. The so-called "pistol" they used has been shown to be a "Tech-9", a weapon that was made illegal under the recent (and unenforced) "asault weapons" ban.
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*I only SEEM Normal*
Baloo--
Colorado curently has VERY lax gun laws, and it currently isn't illegal to sell a shotgun or rifle to someone as young as 16. I believe a lot of the hubub at the beginning was that the Colorado Senate (or house or whatever) was currently debating laws effecting the purchase of handguns. *wishes he'd pay more attention*
I've been repeatedly sickened on the garbage the media is playing on about this incident. I've seen so many things blamed, from Marylon Manson to DOOM. Obviously weapons laws are an easy target in a situation like this... But in the end I believe you find re-regulation of ANY kind will be fruitless. You can't regulate the way people think. And if a person is intent enough on exacting revenge on someone thats repeatedly mocked them for years, then there will be no stopping them. No matter how many of their toys you take away from them.
It occured to me that this was a hate crime. Most people think of hate crimes as crimes against a minority group of some kind, but that isn't true. Has anyone here ever hated someone REALLY intensly? By nature I'd never hurt anyone (well, in RL *lol*) but when I was in 7th grade this guy who would later go on to be captain of the wrestling team at our school was CONSTANTLY taunting me. One day it got too much to bear and I just exploded. Beat the living crap out of the guy. I've never been that pissed off at anyone, and never really have since. But the point of this story is, if you hate someone enough, you will do anything to them. These guys simply used guns because they were easy to obtain. If they didn't have those, they'd most likely have used bombs (someone actually said Grenades, which I know is bull) or anything else they could get their hands on. Even if they didn't have ANYTHING AT ALL, they'd just gang up eventually and use their bare hands and beat people to death. It would be a riot. But it would still happen.
And according to what I hear lately, they were planning on killing at least 500 people before crashing a hijacked plane into New York. Compared to that 15 people is nothing. We can easily get lost in the sorrow of such a painful situation, but with that kind of eyesight I guarantee you'll get lost pretty quick. I've looked long and hard into the face of death this past month, loosing a friend of mine, an old school teacher, and my aunt... I can tell you it isn't fun. It makes a person not want to get up in the morning.
Call me hard hearted if you want. Unfortunately in situations like these, its all you can do to survive.
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Just killing Mom till Time gets here!
http://thunderchild.simplenet.com
-- Total Eclipse Productions, Sonora CA
--- Currently shooting "Dark Days I: Ragnarok"
Go here.
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Mine is the sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament.
Here's the straight dope (with apologies to Cecil Adams...)
Marilyn Manson Kills Puppies (not).
--Baloo
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"The government has just completed work on a missile that turned out to be a bit of a boondoggle; nicknamed "Civil Servant", it won't work and they can't fire it."