Flare Sci-Fi Forums: Peace In Our Time. Could it really happen?

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Posted by Gaseous Anomaly (Member # 114) on :

Just shot in to let all and sundry in on the fact that Articles 2 and 3 of our Constitution have been altered to acknowledge Northern Ireland's sovereignty and revoke our (99-21) 78-year claim on the Six Counties.

Power has been devolved to Stormont (the N.I. parliament building) since this morning, and I watched the changing of the Articles this morning on Sky News.

True, they have an ex-IRA terrorist as the new Minister for Education but I feel that with over 3,000 dead since the Troubles began 30 years ago, the people of the North are thoroughly sick of the neverending cycle of hate, bitterness and intolerance that they've had to endure for so long.
I know I am.
They know that it's time for a change. Not any change, and not change just for change's sake, but a genuine change for what will hopefully be the betterment of the Irish, Northern Irish and even the English peoples.

It may not lead to the rejoining of Ireland North and south -- to be honest, I don't think that will even happen in my lifetime -- but so what. Peace is the question here, not murderous nationalism.

This is not a "Peace at any Price" scheme cooked up by electioneers and the desperate.

This is the best chance for peace that we, from all over the British Isles have had since Terance O'Neill and Sean Lemass tried to rebuild some bridges in the 60's, but were stopped by the pig-headed bigotted Orangemen and their desire to keep the status quo and to keep Ulster's Catholics oppressed (this is cold hard fact, BTW, not my spin on what happened).

All that remains is for the IRA and indeed loyalist and other nationalist paramilitary organisations to commence disarmament.

I really hope things work out.
Not for my sake, as such.
But I will not tolerate my children growing up in a land that is still divided by blindness and ignorance.

Heaven help them.
And give them strength.

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Devil: Oh look at the time! I'm late for services.
Stone: Services?
Devil: A group of young teenagers that have been celebrating the Black Sabbath are planning on deep-sixing their gym teacher tonight. I'm gonna go and give them a little encouragement.

Brimstone. May it rest in syndication.

Posted by TerraZ on :

I looks a lot like the situation in STTUC... Some people want to keep the status quo at all cost... I supposed people really do hate peace, or otherwise we would already have it.

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-If you ask me, I think continuity is highly overrated...
*Brannon Braga*

-Where were you when the brains were handed out?
*Sonic the Hedgehog*

Posted by Montgomery (Member # 23) on :

Peace in our time?
We're getting there, we're getting there.

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"You see, unlike you I understand history!
My name will blaze across the stars long after your petty treachery has been for-gotten !!!"

Posted by Curry Monster (Member # 12) on :

Peace? Well I guess that is relative. If by peace you mean a veneer of non-military conflict, then it is possible but highly unlikely. (I'm the eternal pessimist).

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"Diplomacy is the art of Internationalising an issue to your advantage"

Field Marshal Military Project
http://fieldmarshal.virtualave.net

Posted by DT (Member # 80) on :

Peace will never happen as long as such petty ideas as nationalism exist. Until we embrace internationalism, peace is an impossiblity. Even in Ireland.

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"Look on the bright side is suicide" - Kurt Cobain
Milk It, Nirvana

Posted by Gaseous Anomaly (Member # 114) on :

Indeed, DT (welcome, BTW - haven't noticed you before).
Europe, more so than any other continent this century, has borne the full brunt of over-zealous nationalists, right up to today's continuing debacle in te former Yugoslavia.
Knowing all to well the worst consequences of nationalism's effects, we decline from singing our national anthem (a very stirring but nationalistic song) in primary schools. I know Yanks and Canadians do, but I doubt the English do. And perhaps for the same reason we don't either.

Brimstone. May it rest in syndication.

Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :

Damn. DT needs to phone in to Jim Quinn's radio show when he starts going on about "throwing our sovreignty away to the UN."

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Calvin: "No efficiency, no accountability... I tell you, Hobbes, it's a lousy way to run a Universe." -- Bill Watterson

Posted by TerraZ on :

What, we Canadians are supposed to sing the national anthem at school? Funny, I don't recall having done that in the last 20 years... Frankly, I've always hated the idea of patriotism... That's what makes fanatism so powerful...

Personaly, I'm all for internationalism. I think it's important to keep one's own culture but that doesn't mean shielding yourself from the world. And forgive me for what I'm about to say, but I'm really tired of the US trying to impose their "way of life" on everybody. I may be a bit biased but everyone will agree that the US has a tendancy to "export" itself.

On another note, I'm from Quebec and I'm sure you've all heard of the separation debate. Now THAT's a bunch of crap. You have a province in which 50% wnat to stay in Canada and 50% wnat to leave. Either way, half the people aren't happy. And why separate? Because we are a distinct nation? Because we are better than the rest of Canada? Without nationalism, there would be no territorial expansion, no racism, a unique and more stable economy. But people are too obssesed with themself to see that.

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-If you ask me, I think continuity is highly overrated...
*Brannon Braga*

-Where were you when the brains were handed out?
*Sonic the Hedgehog*

Posted by Montgomery (Member # 23) on :

As Einstein said, nationalsim is the measles of the human character. And nasty it is.

The idea of the US losing its sovereignty to the UN is ludicrous. The UN is increasingly impotent and irrelevant to global affairs, which is bad as it encourages wild unilateral actions. And the US practically runs it anyway, despite refusing to may its membership fees.

DT is right in saying we need a new mindset of internationalism. The degree to which the nation state should/will survive in the next century will doubtless be of great interest to future historians. Just a shame we can't read their books...

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"You see, unlike you I understand history!
My name will blaze across the stars long after your petty treachery has been for-gotten !!!"

Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :

Without nationalism, people will not identify with or care about their nation, leading to internal conflict.

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Frank's Home Page
"Ou tou kratountos h� polis nomizetai" - Creon

Posted by DT (Member # 80) on :

I'm advocating the most extreme position but I'm not even the most hostile sounding on that side! What's happened?! :-)

For a discussion on nationalism, let us consider World War I. Why did it occur?

Well, the immediate cause involves nationalism. Serbian nationalism, supported by Russia due to Slavic nationalism. Austria and Germany collaborating due to a shared Germanic nationalism. The US was divided along the lines of those who wished to help their Anglo-Saxon brothers and those who opposed them due to being either Irish-American or German-American. And of course, the French were angry over their embarrassment during the Franco-Prussian War, a war which, incidentally, was fought for German nationalism.

Now, as I'm sure Jay will point out, there were more causes than nationalism. The dismemberment of the Ottoman Empire, the quest for Germany hegemony (of course, that was motivated out of nationalism) and colonialism (which was motivated, in part, out of the nationalistic principle of White Man's Burden). However, would the mass populace had fought so long if not for nationalism?

Let us stop to consider World War II. Nationalism run amuck, anyone? Germans, following their myth of the ubermenscht, conducted their wars to establish a German continent. The Russian workers fought not out of love for the brutal dictator Stalin, but for "the motherland" which had brutalized them for centuries. Italy wished to establish a new Roman Empire. Nationalism, anyone? Moreover, Japan was likewise motivated.

I remember a class project in my freshman semester, a Comp I class. The group I was in had to write a definition of patriotism. Despite my best efforts, we agreed on a three pronged plank: patriotism motivates people to serve in the military, partake in politics and become involved with helping those in their neighbourhood. As I stood on my chair and declared

"To serve in the military like Goering, to partake in politics like Hitler, and to help their neighbours like Goebbels."

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"Oh no, I know a dirty word" - Kurt Cobain
Smells Like Teen Spirit, Nirvana

Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :

I see a long list of examples of people fighting for their fellow countrymen.

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Frank's Home Page
"Ou tou kratountos h� polis nomizetai" - Creon

Posted by Curry Monster (Member # 12) on :

Actually, Australians would have to be about the least nationalistic people I know. Hell, we don't know who our first PM was, a shite load of us don't even know the national anthem - to the extent that we actually think it's called something else.

The key force that would drive nationalism down the gurgler is education - attacking the problem at its roots from childhood. Easier said than done, mind you.

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"Diplomacy is the art of Internationalising an issue to your advantage"

Field Marshal Military Project
http://fieldmarshal.virtualave.net

Posted by DT (Member # 80) on :

Okay Frank.

I'm American.

Why is a Japanese life worth less than mine?
Are they inferior?
Is it genetic?
Or are we God's Chosen People and must smite them?

Countryman is a relative term.

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"Oh no, I know a dirty word" - Kurt Cobain
Smells Like Teen Spirit, Nirvana

Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :

Nobody's life is worth any more than anyone else's. But if someone from some other country is trying to kill my next-door neighbor, I wouldn't just stand there and watch.

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Frank's Home Page
"Ou tou kratountos h� polis nomizetai" - Creon

Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :

And here are some other examples.

Someone in my nation is ill with a rare disease. Another nation has the cure, but refuses to relinquish it. I and my military will thus go into the other nation to get the cure. If they try to stop us via any sort of threat, we have no choice but to attack them until we get the cure. It would also be a good idea to destroy the military infrastructure of the other nation to insure this doesn't happen again.

Someone from my nation is being imprisoned by another nation. I and my military will thus go into the other nation to get him/her out. If they try to stop us via any sort of threat, we have no choice but to attack them until we get the other person back. If the other person is harmed or killed, the other nation's military infrastructure must be destroyed to insure this doesn't happen again.

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Frank's Home Page
"Ou tou kratountos h� polis nomizetai" - Creon