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http://www.cnn.com/1999/WORLD/europe/12/07/dutch.shooting.04/

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Fool of a Took, throw yourself in next time!!
Gandalf

[This message has been edited by Kosh (edited December 08, 1999).]
 

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Calvin: "No efficiency, no accountability... I tell you, Hobbes, it's a lousy way to run a Universe." -- Bill Watterson

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*gasp* "The pictures...they're...coming...alive!"
-Abe Simpson, on the miracle of the moving image

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Jubes, holding dinner: "What will you give me for the food?"
Me: "My virginity..."
-- Actual quote
 

Ahem..

But seriously:
Where does it end??

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Life on Earth is expensive, but it does include a free annual trip around the sun!

=\V/=

 

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"I've never seen anything this beautiful in the entire galaxy. Alright, give me the bomb" -Ultra Magnus, Fight or Flee
 

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Fool of a Took, throw yourself in next time!!
Gandalf

"Outlaw guns and only outlaws will have them."
"Guns don't kill people, People kill people."

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Death before Dishonor!
However Dishonor has
quite a disputed defintion.

------------------
Mephistopheles's Repossessions and Furnace Works
C/O
Mephistopheles, Cain, Brutus, Medici, Torquemada, Richelieu,
Metternich, Tweed, Rasputin & Daley, Attorneys-at-Law
1 Perdition-on-the-Styx Plaza
Dis, The Nether Regions

"A Hell of a Law Firm"
 

Omega: Well, the percentage of gun-related deaths and injuries in the Netherlands is far less than at the United States (which is what? every day?). Remove gun control laws and we may as well wear bulls eyes with bright lettering saying "HIT US HERE!!!!"

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I can resist anything.......
Except Temptation

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Frank's Home Page
"Ou tou kratountos h� polis nomizetai" - Creon
 

I also agree with Tahna Los. This belongs on the Flameboard. Sol, if you would do the honors?

--Baloo

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"The difficult part in an argument is not to defend one's opinion, but rather to know it."
--Andre Maurois
http://members.tripod.com/~Bob_Baloo/index.htm

Besides, if friendly fire is a problem in even highly trained military forces, imagine how bad it would be if everybody had a gun and decided to hand out their own justice.

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No I'm Spartacus!
 

There was just another shooting in the states.. a 12? or 13 yr old? kid shoots another kid .. Like, what is with that??!!!

Up here in Canada, the native indian kids are killing themselves (hanging) .. I simply don't get it..
Is everyone on a death kick!!??

Ahhh... I get so upset when I hear this kinda thing, cuz I simply don't comprehend the wanting to take one's or another's life!! Sensless CRAP

This should be in flameboard shouldn't it!! hehehe
Good topic tho' !! This is a serious problem.. not only in the States or Canada.. but world wide.

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- Alshrim Dax
The Other Dax

[This message has been edited by Alshrim Dax (edited December 08, 1999).]
 

If you're sick and have a fever, the doctor may only prescribe aspirin. If the fever continues to climb, and the doctor just continues to prescribe more aspirin, you should probably seek another opinion, since aspirin doesn't seem to be doing the job.

Passing gun control laws in the wake of such tragedies allows people to feel like they have done something about the problem. They want to do something fast and forget about it. Hopefully it will go away while they have their eyes closed. Unfortunately, that approach is rather like the doctor who continues to prescribe more and more aspirin for a rising fever. Discover the nature of the disease first, then determine and execute a course of treatment.

--Baloo

PS: Sol, we're waiting... .

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"The difficult part in an argument is not to defend one's opinion, but rather to know it."
--Andre Maurois
http://members.tripod.com/~Bob_Baloo/index.htm

And the situation's pretty much the same in the UK, which also has strict gun control laws.

How often does it happen in the US? Eh?

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*gasp* "The pictures...they're...coming...alive!"
-Abe Simpson, on the miracle of the moving image

------------------
Jubes, holding dinner: "What will you give me for the food?"
Me: "My virginity..."
-- Actual quote
 

------------------
"I've never seen anything this beautiful in the entire galaxy. Alright, give me the bomb" -Ultra Magnus, Fight or Flee
 

------------------
Elim Garak: "Oh, it's just Garak. Plain, simple Garak. Now, good day to you, Doctor. I'm so glad to have made such an... interesting new friend today." (DS9: "Past Prologue")
 

*ahem*

Uh oh, pink elephants.

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"I wish that everything went just as I wish everything would go."
--
John Linnell
 

It seems an evident fact that people from the US have been programmed so well by their culture that they are no longer capable of comprehending the logic of gun control. I find this baffling, as does pretty much the rest of the civilised world.

Sure, in the srictest controlled countries some people will still find a way to get a gun and use it... But at least they have to make the effort to hoodwink a gun supplier or contact the criminal underground; not just wander up to their bedroom and pick up the Uzi their dad gave them for their fifth birthday so they could "defend themselves"...

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"I cannot live out that life.
That man is bereft of passion... and imagination!
That is not who I am!"

The most disturbing thing is the gunman (gunboy?) was actually encouraged by his father to defend their family's honour. But machismo&vendetta cultures are antoher topic altogether.
 

Besides, look at the problem with illegal drugs in the US...laws haven't stopped them from being sold or obtained.

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Frank's Home Page
"Ou tou kratountos h� polis nomizetai" - Creon
 

Monty:

Wha? If anyone in the country is preprogrammed, it's the ones who DO want tougher gun control laws. They don't think about it, just go along with it. Like the asprin analogy. And another problem is that we don't enforce the laws that ARE on the books. There's a town in North Carolina where practically everyone owns a gun and displays it. Guess what. The murder rate is practically nil. The law-abiding citizins who have guns aren't the problem. The problem is people who obtain guns for the express purpose of breaking the law, and in their case, a law against having a gun wouldn't make any difference. A little known fact about criminals is that they tend to break the law.

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Mephistopheles's Repossessions and Furnace Works
C/O
Mephistopheles, Cain, Brutus, Medici, Torquemada, Richelieu,
Metternich, Tweed, Rasputin & Daley, Attorneys-at-Law
1 Perdition-on-the-Styx Plaza
Dis, The Nether Regions

"A Hell of a Law Firm"
 

OOOOOKKKKKKAAAAAAYYYYYYYY, how many of these school shootings have been done by professional criminals? You know, the sort that have underground contacts and can smuggle a gun around? *counts*

Okay, now how many have been done by someone who bought a gun whith his fags at the newsagents? *counts*

Ahhh, I see...

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"Obesity. Adiposity. Corpulence. Whatever word you use, it represents one thing: being a big fatass."

Geraldo Rivera
 

Answer #2. None.

You have no idea how much it irks me to be agreeing with Omega on this issue.

The thing I keep noticing about the people I encounter who are for gun control: They almost always tend to be Victims. Now, I don't mean victims of crime or victims of gun crime, as much as I mean people with a Victim mentality.. "Poor me, I could never possibly defend myself, so I'd better just give Mr. Criminal all my stuff and hope he just goes away." The problem with this mentality is that once you're a victim, you will be victimized over and over and over again. And you'll be too wrapped up in your victimhood to care about or even notice it. The criminal NEVER goes away. He knows an easy mark when he sees it.

Very often these are the same people who expect the government to step in and do everything for them.

BZZT!

A Supreme Court decision not so long ago even ruled that the police are not obligated to protect individual citizens. This is one of the reasons stalkers have a field day.. the police can't do anything about them until it's over.

As for this being Netherlands' first shooting, and therefore somehow being less... just you wait. See how/if your media plays it a lot. You think the US is the world's only powderkeg?

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Calvin: "No efficiency, no accountability... I tell you, Hobbes, it's a lousy way to run a Universe." -- Bill Watterson

2. Your theory is by training everyone to be all macho, heoric, and combat trained...we can eliminate all crime because the criminals will be too intimidated to commit a crime.

Newsflash!
By the same reasoning we could eliminate all war by giving every country well trained armies and the biggest nuclear weapons we can find. Maybe MAD (Mutual Assured Destruction) will end all war.

Hello....it didn't. How many wars have we had in the past few years despite the increasing precence of nuclear devices?
Did India and Pakistan stop fighting once they both had nukes? No..they continued and are now fighting with greater risks.

Its the same thing with people, people make up nations, nations act like people do. (And before you start wondering what is my Hoover Dam or what is France's equivalent of a spleen...don't take a metaphor/simile too far...)

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No I'm Spartacus!
 

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Frank's Home Page
"Ou tou kratountos h� polis nomizetai" - Creon
 

But it's likely to happen a long time after the next one in the US.

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"Obesity. Adiposity. Corpulence. Whatever word you use, it represents one thing: being a big fatass."

Geraldo Rivera
 

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Frank's Home Page
"Ou tou kratountos h� polis nomizetai" - Creon
 

We're talking about a country where it is the constitution RIGHT .. not a priveledge.. but a RIGHT to own and carry a gun dammit !! SO... you have pappa.. who has been cleared to own a gun.. he keeps the freakin' thing in his side desk drawer.. and you have his kid.. a nice kid, tho' a little mis-understood. Now .. I ask all of you.. what is preventing him from getting his hands on that gun????

As a kid, if I wanted to get my hands on some of my ol' man's playboys.. that were supposed to be hidden from my prying eyes.. Well. dammit, I had my buddies over and all we did was go into the closet and look at em.. Kids know where things are.. they snoop.. That's call "Child-like curiosity". It's not called that for nothing.

We can educate our kids.. sure.. Get a seriously mis-understood kid in a class like that.. and you're teaching him the potential destruction he can cause. The power he could invoke over others.. the type of power he wouldn't have unless he had his hands on his dad's gun! .. That is what those kids are doing in those school.. prooving they have that power..

Now.. HOW DO YOU PREVENT THAT??? Bring up your kids right??? NAW... REMOVE THE THREAT.. DON'T OWN A FREAKIN' GUN all together.. get it out of people's head that the even NEED one!!!

Sorry.. I get sooo worked up over this topic.. cuz I hate .. HATE.. sensless killing. It's pointless and a waste..

I've never held a gun in my hands.. EVER.. Never needed it up here in Canada.. (and don't get me wrong.. i'm not trying to slam americans.. more, I'm trying to slam the policies brought forth by their gov't.) anyways..

I know that the dutch have great gun control.. very strict.. I'm happy to hear that... I am.. and I applaud them for being as successful as they have been. I also realize that shootings only happen, what? , , maybe 9 or 10 incidents a year?? But let's have the body count of those shooting, and let's ask ourselve.. how many of these victims could have had productive, and fullfilled life??? That's what gets me so hot about this topic..

But again,, I love the fact that it was brought up here.. The more ideas we bring forth, the better..maybe some politician is a ST fan and comes here and will get an idea too!!

Thanx for putting up with my ranting!!

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- Alshrim Dax
The Other Dax

I once dated a woman who had a little girl. I grew so attached to the girl that I still keep in touch with her to this day. She's seventeen now, and in high school. I think of her often, and am scared for her. This is slowly changing my opinion on guns and gun control.

This last kid that went on a shooting spree didn't even seem to have a reason, told the cops he didn't know why he did it. I've been out of school twenty years, and I guess I'm out of touch with the way kids think these days. I just don't nderstand what makes them think that killing is the answer. We had fights, even gag fights, a lot of racial tension, drugs were easy to get, with few people getting caught. You could usually get by with just about anything if you used your head. With 700+ students to watch, they couldn't catch everthing, and for a large part, weren't smart enough to catch us in much.

So where did this come from. I don't buy the movie/Television idea. People have been using that one since movies first began here in the US in the late 1800's. personally, I think it is the way kids are being raised here these days. If I did something wrong, I knew Dad was going to be on my butt the instant he found out about it. Today, parents are afraid to punish kids the way we used to, fearing leaving permanent scars on the soul. My sister lets her kids get by to the point that I started avoiding contact with her family, because the kids drove me up the wall. I was at their house with my parents one evening, when the youngest started acting so badly, that Dad decided to leave, and made no secret why he was leaveing. My sister and her husband laughed about it. I just don't get it.

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Fool of a Took, throw yourself in next time!!
Gandalf

I still never shot anyone!! (knock wood - jokes)

Up here in Canada, they are about to pass a bill that will take section 43 out of the criminal code... Section 43 states that parents are ALLOWED to use reasonable force when disciplining their kids. Without Section43 in there... it will become a CRIMINAL OFFENSE to spank your child.

and people wonder why kid are going to sh*t in a handbasket!! or they're becoming squeegee kids, washing car windsheilds for a dollar.

People aren't disciplining their kids enough ... so they become mouthy, uncontrollable discontents that go out a blow people away.

But let's not forget.. it's not only kids killing people, there are some adults out there that are just as dangerous. I know that there are some poeple who frequent these threads that are in their teens. And most of you are probly really good people ... You put your energy into a hobby like Star Trek and it will keep you outta trouble.. my parents always thought that 20 years ago!! So I'm not picking on the youth of today. But these kids that go and kill others... Don't represent you good kids very well.

Society has a bad habit of lumping the whole lot of you in one big, bad package.

So.. count yourselves exempted from these comments.

(man I should be a politician)
VOTE FOR ALSHRIM DAX FOR PRESIDENT OF THE WORLD..
come on pinky.. we have to TAKE OVER THE WORLD..

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- Alshrim Dax
The Other Dax

[This message has been edited by Alshrim Dax (edited December 10, 1999).]
 

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Fool of a Took, throw yourself in next time!!
Gandalf

I realise that ownership of guns is enshrined in your constitution, but when are people going to realise that this fascination with guns is killing innocent people. The free ownership of guns is a problem and the sooner people realise that and do something about it, the better it'll be for everyone.

This killing in the Netherlands is most likely a copycat killing since it's the first school shooting they've ever had. How many more people are going to have to die before people realise that guns are a problem? God forbid, would it really have to take a member of your own family to be gunned down before you wise up?

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The line must be drawn here, this far, no further. Picard, First Contact

The line has to be drawn here, this far and no further. Quark, Dogs of War

Bud, you only ever hear about the couple of gun tragedies, because the 2 MILLION times that guns are used in personal defense to STOP a crime each year isn't considered "newsworthy" by the people who control what you see and hear.

I'll let you in on a secret, though... the people who are making discipline and spanking a criminal act.. are the SAME people who are pushing for gun control the hardest. These people want to insure that whatever you do, there are NO consequences. So they create a generation of uncontrollable kids, and when the kids go berserk, they insure that nobody will be able to do anything about it.

And yes, my Dictatorial plans are still there.

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Calvin: "No efficiency, no accountability... I tell you, Hobbes, it's a lousy way to run a Universe." -- Bill Watterson

The US on the other hand is a completly different situation. Gun control wouldn't work now, becaue people have been brought up to believe that owning a gun is their right, but also because the country is saturated with them. They almost do need guns just to protect themselves from other people with guns. The only way gun control would work would be if they managed to remove over 90% of the guns in the country, and that would be impossible. They're in a mess that they can't fix, which is why no other countries should get rid of their gun control, because it will just start them on the same road to every family having two cars and a shotgun under the bed.

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"Obesity. Adiposity. Corpulence. Whatever word you use, it represents one thing: being a big fatass."

Geraldo Rivera
 

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Frank's Home Page
"Ou tou kratountos h� polis nomizetai" - Creon
 

Even if all of our guns are in the hands of criminals, the numbers don't even come close to the shootings you have. At least the innocent aren't being harmed here as much as across the water.

It is a lot safer to live here, and I intend to stay. You're free to throw all the parties you want at this news - I don't care!

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The line must be drawn here, this far, no further. Picard, First Contact

The line has to be drawn here, this far and no further. Quark, Dogs of War

Anyway, I agree...if you don't want to be around guns, stay where you are.

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Frank's Home Page
"Ou tou kratountos h� polis nomizetai" - Creon
 

Jokin'

Well, only a little.

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"Obesity. Adiposity. Corpulence. Whatever word you use, it represents one thing: being a big fatass."

Geraldo Rivera
 

And something recently occured to me about something that someone (I think it was 1/2, but I'm not sure) said a while back about Conservatives changing their positions over the years, whereas liberals remain constant. This isn't true. Extreme leftists of 1899 would be called moderates today. Maybe. Today's liberal leaders are socialists, plain and simple, ala Hilary. But that's just the leaders. Most liberals don't even think about it. They just do what their told, ala Bill. Conservatism is always the same. The smallest government possible.

------------------
Mephistopheles's Repossessions and Furnace Works
C/O
Mephistopheles, Cain, Brutus, Medici, Torquemada, Richelieu,
Metternich, Tweed, Rasputin & Daley, Attorneys-at-Law
1 Perdition-on-the-Styx Plaza
Dis, The Nether Regions

"A Hell of a Law Firm"
 

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Fool of a Took, throw yourself in next time!!
Gandalf

------------------
Mephistopheles's Repossessions and Furnace Works
C/O
Mephistopheles, Cain, Brutus, Medici, Torquemada, Richelieu,
Metternich, Tweed, Rasputin & Daley, Attorneys-at-Law
1 Perdition-on-the-Styx Plaza
Dis, The Nether Regions

"A Hell of a Law Firm"
 

Ah, well. If the streets of N.O. were safer because they locked up all the crooks, who would vote Democratic?

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Calvin: "No efficiency, no accountability... I tell you, Hobbes, it's a lousy way to run a Universe." -- Bill Watterson

------------------
Mephistopheles's Repossessions and Furnace Works
C/O
Mephistopheles, Cain, Brutus, Medici, Torquemada, Richelieu,
Metternich, Tweed, Rasputin & Daley, Attorneys-at-Law
1 Perdition-on-the-Styx Plaza
Dis, The Nether Regions

"A Hell of a Law Firm"
 

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"I wish that everything went just as I wish everything would go."
--
John Linnell
 

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Fool of a Took, throw yourself in next time!!
Gandalf

[This message has been edited by Kosh (edited December 15, 1999).]
 

If you want an example, take that fire in which six firemen died trying to save homeless people that weren't even there. Those two people had a choice about being homeless. The man's mother offered to let them live in her house until they got on their feet, and they refused. She'd also been trying to get him to get treatment for a mental condition he had, and he still refused. The liberals put these people on the street by kicking them out of hospitals, and now they're attacking Juliani(I know that's spelled wrong, but...) for not putting them in the very hospitals they made illegal.

Sol:

You're not under any obligation to believe anything you read. The only thing you could possibly find painful about it is if you're a liberal, you actually listen to what he says, and you find out that everything you've believed all your life is wrong. If you can find one thing in those books that isn't true or is misleading (except that single-term prediction for Clinton; he was wrong there, unfortunately), let me know.

------------------
Mephistopheles's Repossessions and Furnace Works
C/O
Mephistopheles, Cain, Brutus, Medici, Torquemada, Richelieu,
Metternich, Tweed, Rasputin & Daley, Attorneys-at-Law
1 Perdition-on-the-Styx Plaza
Dis, The Nether Regions

"A Hell of a Law Firm"
 

Most of the homeless in this area seem to be homeless by choise. Most of the ones I've been in contact with are drunks, rather then mentally ill. My aunt worked in a church that feed people who were both homeless, or just poor.

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Fool of a Took, throw yourself in next time!!
Gandalf

"Oh sorry I shot your son. I know now that he was innocent, but he could have been an intruder."

Fat lot of good that's gonna do to his family now.

Frank: The vast majority of gun crimes in this country are gang/drug related and the poeple that are killed are the scum who use and supply hard drugs to others. Good riddance to them all. However in the US, it's the innocent like that student who get killed for absolutely no reason. This is why gun control is needed because the lives of the innocent cannot continue to be thrown away like they are.

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The line must be drawn here, this far, no further. Picard, First Contact

The line has to be drawn here, this far and no further. Quark, Dogs of War

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Frank's Home Page
"Ou tou kratountos h� polis nomizetai" - Creon
 

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Elim Garak: "Oh, it's just Garak. Plain, simple Garak. Now, good day to you, Doctor. I'm so glad to have made such an... interesting new friend today." (DS9: "Past Prologue")
 

Look, the kid shouldn't have gotten shot, but taking away the man's gun isn't the solution. What if the kid HAD been trying to break in? Then would you say that he shouldn't have a gun so he can defend himself? If that were the case, he could easily have been hurt or killed. The solution is to ELIMINATE CRIME! That way, the man wouldn't have been afraid for his life, and THEN the kid wouldn't have gotten hurt at all!

Another thing that comes to mind is the story of a liberal journalist (from DC, I believe) who always wrote scathing articles about the NRA, and how guns should be confiscated. One night, he was attacked, and he pulled out a gun and shot the guy. An unregistered gun at that. He then couldn't understand why people thought he was a hypocrite.

------------------
Mephistopheles's Repossessions and Furnace Works
C/O
Mephistopheles, Cain, Brutus, Medici, Torquemada, Richelieu,
Metternich, Tweed, Rasputin & Daley, Attorneys-at-Law
1 Perdition-on-the-Styx Plaza
Dis, The Nether Regions

"A Hell of a Law Firm"
 

How about I shoot a close relative of yours for no godamn reason, and see if you still think I was justified because he/she may have been a possible intruder sometime down the line?

Saying that he could have been an intruder is like justifying the murder of the Jews in World War II, because they could have been a threat to the Germans, and killed some of them.

And sorry if this makes no sense. I just had my wisdom teeth removed, and I'm still a little loopy.

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"I've never seen anything this beautiful in the entire galaxy. Alright, give me the bomb" -Ultra Magnus, Fight or Flee
 

Now wait just a...

*reads last line*

Oh, that explains it...

Look, I don't mean that one kid in particular, but I'd bet you three bars of latinum that more criminals with violent intent are shot by guns than people who are shot in misunderstandings. If we took away guns from law-abiding citizins, they would have no defence against the violent criminals. The excess number of people that would be harmed by violent criminals would be far greater than those harmed by law-abiding citizins due to misunderstandings, accidents, and shooting sprees combined.

All you really need is to pass (AND enforce) a law that simply said that no one who had been convicted of a violent crime can own or buy a firearm, and that no one under, say, 21 can do the same. Oh, and one that says that you have to do a background check before selling someone a gun. That would eliminate well over 90% of crime involving guns, according to 1/2's stats. And my soon-to-be running mate said, guns are used to prevent crimes 2,000,000 times every year. Thus if law-abiding citizins were not allowed to have guns, it follows that 2,000,000 extra crimes would be commited every year. Why is this so hard to understand? (And I mean that seriously. What problem do you actually have with the logic here? I think it's quite clear, but again, I'm judging my own rationality.)

------------------
Mephistopheles's Repossessions and Furnace Works
C/O
Mephistopheles, Cain, Brutus, Medici, Torquemada, Richelieu,
Metternich, Tweed, Rasputin & Daley, Attorneys-at-Law
1 Perdition-on-the-Styx Plaza
Dis, The Nether Regions

"A Hell of a Law Firm"
 

------------------
Mephistopheles's Repossessions and Furnace Works
C/O
Mephistopheles, Cain, Brutus, Medici, Torquemada, Richelieu,
Metternich, Tweed, Rasputin & Daley, Attorneys-at-Law
1 Perdition-on-the-Styx Plaza
Dis, The Nether Regions

"A Hell of a Law Firm"
 

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"I wish that everything went just as I wish everything would go."
--
John Linnell
 

Ultra Magnus: BINGO!!!! I agree with you all the way.

And now, *ahem* Omega...... boy oh boy oh boy.......

Look, the kid shouldn't have gotten shot, but taking away the man's gun isn't the solution. What if the kid HAD been trying to break in? Then would you say that he shouldn't have a gun so he can defend himself? If that were the case, he could easily have been hurt or killed. The solution is to ELIMINATE CRIME! That way, the man wouldn't have been afraid for his life, and THEN the kid wouldn't have gotten hurt at all!

Point number 1: That is a VERY offensive remark to say that the kid COULD have been trying to break in. YES the gun should have been taken away. By saying that he should still have his right to keep his gun after committing a crime could legally mean that anyone convicted of an offense with a registered gun could legally get off the hook. You know damn well how these lawyers work.

Point number 2: Eliminate Crime? The best way to do that is to eliminate principal weapons USED in the crime. That means guns. So much for that point.

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I can resist anything.......
Except Temptation
 

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Frank's Home Page
"Ou tou kratountos h� polis nomizetai" - Creon
 

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"I've never seen anything this beautiful in the entire galaxy. Alright, give me the bomb" -Ultra Magnus, Fight or Flee
 

------------------
"Obesity. Adiposity. Corpulence. Whatever word you use, it represents one thing: being a big fatass."

Geraldo Rivera
 

Common Misperception, Kosh. Most homeless here are homeless due to unfortunate circumstances, factory closes, abuse, house burned down, etc. Here in Toronto, the Conservative government is trying to make the homeless and the less fortunate our worst enemy, they are the REAL causes of Ontario's problems..... etc....... no wonder why the Conservatives are making life WAY more difficult for them.

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I can resist anything.......
Except Temptation
 

He tells me the story of when he was riding with a friend of his who owns a landscaping company, and passed a man panhandling. The friend, who was short on labor, actually pulled over and offered the guy a job making quite a bit more than minimum wage.

The guy turned him down flat.

??

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Calvin: "No efficiency, no accountability... I tell you, Hobbes, it's a lousy way to run a Universe." -- Bill Watterson

Woha, sorry. Didn't mean to offend you. So what is it, you just don't like the way he presents his facts?

And I don't get my opinions from talk radio. I get my opinions from logical, rational thought. I simply get the facts from talk radio that you can't get elsewhere.
For instance, when was the last time any of you heard about "Spotted" Al Gore (as one of our local hosts affectionately calls him) claims to have invented the internet, discovered the love canal problem, been the subject of the book and movie "Love Story", and invented the earned income tax credit (which was actually passed a full year before he was even elected to the House)? Or that ABC themselves came up with the idea for this meeting between McCain and Bradley on campaign finanace reform? OR that Algore had a private working dinner with the entire Washington Press Corps (minus their two or three conservatives, of course) off the record?

Tahna:

Problem here is that he wasn't convicted of anything, so no, you can't take the gun. But I shouldn't have said "taking away HIS gun". I meant guns in general.

I think the problem is that you only see two alternatives (something I've been accused of myself). You either think that everyone can have guns, or no one can have guns. But if you keep guns out of the hands of people with records of previous violent crimes (and kids, of course), and let the rest of the people carry guns, you could eliminate 80-90% of crime involving guns according to 1/2's stats, without a corresponding increase due to a reduction in the number of crimes prevented by people with guns. Sounds like the best executable solution.

The key to remember with gun control is this: you will never be able to keep guns completely out of the hands of criminals. It's just not possible. In theory, yes, but in theory Communism works, and we all know how that turns out in the real world. So in the absence of that solution, the next best alternative is to keep as many guns out of the hands of criminals (again, and kids) and as many guns IN the hands of law-abiding citizins as possible. The laws I've suggested would do just that.

Yes, you'd still have criminals with guns, but they'd be much harder for them to get. And yes, you'd still have people snapping and going on a spree occasionally, but that can't be avoided by laws. This incident in the Netherlands prooves that. To use a phrase coined by Barry Goldwater and of late twisted out of its original meaning by liberals, "You can't legislate morality." What that originally meant was that no matter how many laws you pass, you can't change people's hearts and minds.

Boy, what Canada calls conservatives must be really screwed up.

1/2:

You're right. Some of these people simply refuse to work. I've heard of proposals for homeless shelters where you can only get shelter if you work (maybe it was fixing up the shelter or something, maybe it was simple jot that didn't pay enough to live off of; not sure, but whatever it was, they were being productive), and the tennants complained.

*lazySpeak*

How dare you try and make us work for a living!

*/speak*

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Mephistopheles's Repossessions and Furnace Works
C/O
Mephistopheles, Cain, Brutus, Medici, Torquemada, Richelieu,
Metternich, Tweed, Rasputin & Daley, Attorneys-at-Law
1 Perdition-on-the-Styx Plaza
Dis, The Nether Regions

"A Hell of a Law Firm"

[This message has been edited by Omega (edited December 16, 1999).]
 

Except for Art Bell, of course.

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"I wish that everything went just as I wish everything would go."
--
John Linnell
 

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Fool of a Took, throw yourself in next time!!
Gandalf

Back up a second.

If we didn't let the mentally ill out of institutions, we'd have 70-80% fewer homeless people?

You're implying about three quarters of the people who are homeless are mentally ill?

Yeah, and three quarters of the population of Canada is Blonde, Jewish, Bisexual, Diabetic and suffers from Gallstones.

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"Is this real life? Is this just fantasy?"
-Queen, Bohemian Rhapsody

 

I'm all for reducing gun use to only over 21s, but how are they going to enforce it? You need a government that's got the balls to stand up to the gun lobby and tell them what to go and do with themselves - but I think that's not going to happen, especially with the (I suspect) large donations that they make to party funds. It is a good idea, and it'll take time but it also has to be combined with education for young children about what harm guns can do. Once the image of guns has changed from a symbol of power to a symbol of death, it will be easier to change attitudes.

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The line must be drawn here, this far, no further. Picard, First Contact

The line has to be drawn here, this far and no further. Quark, Dogs of War

But you CAN eliminate repeat offenses.

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Calvin: "No efficiency, no accountability... I tell you, Hobbes, it's a lousy way to run a Universe." -- Bill Watterson

I came by this piece of information from a fairly reliable source... perhaps some of our Australian friends can confirm or deny it for me.

*Blinks*

Erm, I forget if we actually have any Ozzie's here, but.. whatever.

My soure stated that Australia recently had a major nationwide gun confiscation effort, which netted 640,000 weapons, which they melted down.

My source then went on to say that immediately afterwards, the number of homicides, assaults, and armed robberies in that country went UP, rather than down.

Further, that homicides with firearms went up 300 percent in Victoria, and nationwide armed robberies climbed 44 percent.

If true, I would like to use this as an example of the main folly of gun-control positions, the belief that when decent, law-abiding people (as most Australians certainly are) are deprived of their ability to self-defend, and criminals, being bad guys, hold onto theirs, only good things can come of it.

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Calvin: "No efficiency, no accountability... I tell you, Hobbes, it's a lousy way to run a Universe." -- Bill Watterson

I don't know about Australia, but I can talk about the UK. There are gun crimes here, but the number of poeple actually killed with them is tiny. If someone here gets shot, it makes the news. In the US, I'd be surprised if it made the obituary column. From a young age, we learn that guns are dangerous weapons of destruction and murder. Yes there are crimes that occur because of guns, but if we didn't have this anti-gun feeling and if guns were widely available, the number of gun related crimes would soar.

We will never be able to get the gun crimes down to zero, but the point is that we have to keep the figures down. That is precisely what gun control does and it also provides a safer place to live, much safer than if guns were freely available.

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The line must be drawn here, this far, no further. Picard, First Contact

The line has to be drawn here, this far and no further. Quark, Dogs of War

And OS is right. Un;ess you want to put down the far fewer number of deaths in Britian to something other than handgun ownership. Like maybe the fact that we're too busy playing cricket, and wouldd consider it terribly unfair to shoot someone. It's not in the Queensbury rules y'know.

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"Obesity. Adiposity. Corpulence. Whatever word you use, it represents one thing: being a big fatass."

Geraldo Rivera

[This message has been edited by PsyLiam (edited December 21, 1999).]
 

Yes, we won't be able to keep guns away from criminals. So are you suggesting by giving every citizen a gun, then the number of gun-related crimes will go down to zero? No, don't believe it. And if you think it will, then forgive me for telling you that you belong in a mental institution. Yes, I agree that it is just not possible for perfect gun control, but I'd take any gun control law which will at least make the statistics drop. I'd take any law which at least helps us feel more secure in our lives. I know that we can't be 100% secure, but with proper gun control, I'd be happy with 99% security.

First of two: I don't believe even one bit of what you're trying to say. I'd dismiss this as more of horribly bad luck then a direct cause of people giving in their guns. And yes, I will agree with OS that it was a pro-gun person who said that. Omega, what do you have to say to that statistic?

My point being is simple: Even with the proliferation of guns is NOT going to make the crime rate go down. Rather it will go up as the proliferation of guns increases the chances of murder each day. You'd have to be out of your mind to think that more guns equals less crime.

Kosh: That's homeless down in the USA. Homeless here means people trying to make ends meet only to find out that the damned government has made rents shoot sky high to unaffordable levels so that they are FORCED to live on the street.

I maintain my view that no person ever chose the street. As for those guys who never showed up for the work day, they were probably to depressed and embarrassed to. Homelessness does that to you.

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I can resist anything.......
Except Temptation
 

No, I'm suggesting that allowing every citizin to have a gun (except those convicted of violent crimes, of course; them and kids) will reduce gun crime. There's no way to completely eliminate violence, no matter what you do.

"...I'd take any gun control law which will at least make the statistics drop"

Which is exactly what the laws I suggest will do. The best possible scenario is that in which no criminals have guns. Then law-abiding citizins would see no need to have them, and give them up on their own (well, unless they need to overthrow a tyrranical government, but that's another discussion). But that situation can not exist. It's like communism. It sees things as being far simpler than they really are. Barring that, the best possible scenario is to keep guns out of the hands of as many criminals as possible (and kids, of course), and still allow law-abiding citizins to carry them, so as to defend themselves from those few criminals that could still obtain guns. Exactly what I propose.

------------------
Mephistopheles's Repossessions and Furnace Works
C/O
Mephistopheles, Cain, Brutus, Medici, Torquemada, Richelieu,
Metternich, Tweed, Rasputin & Daley, Attorneys-at-Law
1 Perdition-on-the-Styx Plaza
Dis, The Nether Regions

"A Hell of a Law Firm"
 

How unfortunate for you it must be, then, to see the statistics of the crime rate in cities and states where gun ownership is encouraged always drop, while those in totally gun-free (legally, in any sense) cities such as Washington D.C. continue to rise.

>"First of two: I don't believe even one bit of what you're trying to say. I'd dismiss this as more of horribly bad luck then a direct cause of people giving in their guns. And yes, I will agree with OS that it was a pro-gun person who said that."

Of course you'd dismiss it. That's what I expected. No anti-gun person would EVER say such a thing, whether it were true or not, they'd hang themselves first. To be honest, I don't recall exactly where I saw it or who wrote it, except that it was in an article in a wildlife conservation magazine (and we ALL know how far right-wing those conservationists are... *snicker*)

I was simply hoping some Ausralian would be kind enough to actually check the facts of the case before dismissing it entirely.

*makes 'bawk-bawk' chicken noises*

Funny, the gun-grabbers all say guns are directly responsible for crime... except when the statistics show otherwise, when they always start saying "fluke" or "bad luck." There IS no such thing as "luck."

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Calvin: "No efficiency, no accountability... I tell you, Hobbes, it's a lousy way to run a Universe." -- Bill Watterson

[This message has been edited by First of Two (edited December 23, 1999).]