The following are from the CIA's handbook, and are military spendings as of fiscal year 1997/98, 98/99 or just 1998 unless otherwise indicated
Afghanistan: NA
Albania: $60 million
Argentina: $4.6 billion
Australia: $6.9 billion
Bosnia: NA
Brazil: $14.7 billion
Canada: $7.1 billion
China: $12.68 billion (1999) a
Columbia: $4 billion b
Croatia: $950 million (1999)
Cuba: $692 million (1995) c
Egypt: $3.28 billion (FY 1995/96) d
Finland: $1.8 billion
France: $39.831 billion (1997)
Germany: $32.8 billion
Greece: $4.04 billion e
Grenada: NA f
India: $10.012 billion g
Indonesia: $959.7 million
Iran: $5.787 billion
Iraq: $NA h
Isreal: $8.7 billion i
Japan: $42.9 billion
N. Korea: $7 billion (1997) j
S. Korea: $9.9 billion
Kuwait: $2.7035 billion
Lebanon: $445 million (1997)
Libya: NA k
Mexico: $6 billion l
Nepal: $44 million m
Netherlands: $6.604 billion
Nicaragua: $26 million
Pakistan: $2.48 billion
Peru: $913 million n
Phillipines: $995 million
Russia: $NA o
Saudi Arabia:$18.1 billion (1997)
Serbia: $911 million
Sudan: $550 million
Syria: $1 billion p
Taiwan: $7.446 billion
Turkey: $6.737 billion q
UK: $36.7 billion
US: $267.2 billion
Venezuala: $1.1 billion
Vietnam: $650 million
a - China's is assumed to be higher, of course, their GDP is only 4.42 trillion, so they can't exactly be spending a lot.
b - Colombia recieves most of that from the United States.
c - This is an estimate, but their 1998 GDP was 17.3 billion, so they couldn't outspend Brazil without devoting almost everything to the military.
d - Much of this is from the United States.
e - This is an estimate.
f - Well, they may be a threat!!! That 340 million dollar GDP could all be going to the military!!
g - The world's most populous country barely outspends Canada. The US needs to worry about them.
h - Iraq's GDP is $52.3 billion.
i - US puppet state.
j - I took the higher estimate.
k - $38 billion GDP.
l - And they still can't beat the ELZN.
m - And they still can't beat the damn Maoists.
n - And they still can't beat the damn Shining Path.
o - Estimated to be about 6th of wait it was during USSR days.
p - Probably higher.
q - A lot coming from the US, glad to see it's my tax dollars going to murder the Kurds. Huzzah for holocausts!
That should make it a little easier.
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"Here is another word that rhymes with shame" - Kurt Cobain
Blew, Nirvana
"The #1 Military Power. The #18 Education System."
"No Wonder Our Bombs are Smarter than Our Kids."
"The First Row of These Nuclear Warheads Annihilates All Civilization. The Others Destroy Our Schools." (the U.S. has enough nukes to wipe out civilization tens times over)
etc.
"Business Leaders of Education" or something.
It's rather interesting. The U.S.'s funding for military hasn't diminished virtually at all since the Cold War ended. For every dollar of U.S. tax, fifty cents goes to the Pentagon. Six cents go towards education. Scary, huh?
In tests, U.S. students placed 18th in the world (maths and sciences at the right grade level); per capita, the U.S. is the 10th biggest spender on schools ($30 billion total per annum), number one on armed forces ($276 billion total per annum).
If you find these ads, I suggest you read them; they're very convincing and well-argued.
Edit: Typos... Why don't you notice them beforehand?
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Elim Garak: "Oh, it's just Garak. Plain, simple Garak. Now, good day to you, Doctor. I'm so glad to have made such an... interesting new friend today." (DS9: "Past Prologue")
[This message has been edited by Elim Garak (edited January 07, 2000).]
I think we have a rather good educational system. (Except Moose Jaw. We're pretty slow.)
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"I've never seen anything this beautiful in the entire galaxy. Alright, give me the bomb" -Ultra Magnus, Fight or Flee
In any case, I think the point stands that the U.S. is still arming itself for the Cold War, when it could better use the billions of dollars elsewhere.
I'm rather pleased the UK and France are so high on the military list; but notice the gap... Their education systems aren't suffering and they're still military powers, second only to their major ally, who is suffering on education fronts, and Japan (unless I missed anyone else on the list)...
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Elim Garak: "Oh, it's just Garak. Plain, simple Garak. Now, good day to you, Doctor. I'm so glad to have made such an... interesting new friend today." (DS9: "Past Prologue")
[This message has been edited by Elim Garak (edited January 07, 2000).]
Is that stat just the national government (which really shouldn't be spending anything at all on education, constitutionally), cause otherwise, I can't get some numbers to quite match up. In New Jersey, it's approaching $9,000 per student, every year! You're telling me that that's not enough money? You can go to a Catholic school for, what, a third of that? You'd probably get a better education, too. More money is not the answer. If two tylenol doesn't get rid of a headache, you don't take four more. There is one main thing that needs to happen to fix our classrooms.
Teachers need to be able to enforce rules and institute dicipline in classrooms. I know a man who teaches at a public school who touched a kid to get his attention. The kid then told his mother that the teacher hit him. The mother came to the school and physically attacked the teacher. The judge told them that they both commited asssault, and decided to "let" them both off. Getting someone's attention is considered assault! If you yell at a kid who's, say, playing a guitar in class, again, you can be sued for assault! Now tell me something isn't wrong there.
Out of curiosity, where is Japan falling in these educational rankings? I've heard that their students are quite similar to ours, and trying to deal with them can incur similar consequences.
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You are wise, witty, and wonderful, but you spend far too much time reading this sort of trash.
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"I've never seen anything this beautiful in the entire galaxy. Alright, give me the bomb" -Ultra Magnus, Fight or Flee
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Smithers, do you realize if I had died, there would be no one to carry on my legacy. Due to my hectic schedule and lethargic sperm, I never fathered an heir. Now I have no one to leave my enormous fortune to. No one.
~C. Montgomery Burns
[This message has been edited by Jay (edited January 08, 2000).]
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"Obesity. Adiposity. Corpulence. Whatever word you use, it represents one thing: being a big fatass."
Geraldo Rivera
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Frank's Home Page
"I'm still amazed at how unintuitive the Windows world is and how it tries to mimic the Mac." - John de Lancie
And that just won't work, as we're a pacifistic country, of course.
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"I've never seen anything this beautiful in the entire galaxy. Alright, give me the bomb" -Ultra Magnus, Fight or Flee
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Frank's Home Page
"I'm still amazed at how unintuitive the Windows world is and how it tries to mimic the Mac." - John de Lancie
But the point is, the U.S. can still be "protector of the world" by cutting the Pentagon budget in, say, half or even more! Especially since the UK is next on the list -- their greatest military ally, followed by one of the U.S.'s greatest trade partners, followed by the U.S.'s longest-running military friend! And with a Pentagon budget of still over $120 billion, they'd be twice ahead of the nearest competition.
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Elim Garak: "Oh, it's just Garak. Plain, simple Garak. Now, good day to you, Doctor. I'm so glad to have made such an... interesting new friend today." (DS9: "Past Prologue")
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Calvin: "No efficiency, no accountability... I tell you, Hobbes, it's a lousy way to run a Universe." -- Bill Watterson
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Elim Garak: "Oh, it's just Garak. Plain, simple Garak. Now, good day to you, Doctor. I'm so glad to have made such an... interesting new friend today." (DS9: "Past Prologue")
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Calvin: "No efficiency, no accountability... I tell you, Hobbes, it's a lousy way to run a Universe." -- Bill Watterson
They reel ya in, and never let go.
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"I've never seen anything this beautiful in the entire galaxy. Alright, give me the bomb" -Ultra Magnus, Fight or Flee
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"That is the metaphorical equivalent of flopping your wedding tackle into a lions mouth and then flicking his love spuds with a wet towel".
- Rimmer
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Frank's Home Page
"I'm still amazed at how unintuitive the Windows world is and how it tries to mimic the Mac." - John de Lancie
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"20th Century, go to sleep."
--
R.E.M.
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Frank's Home Page
"I'm still amazed at how unintuitive the Windows world is and how it tries to mimic the Mac." - John de Lancie
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"Obesity. Adiposity. Corpulence. Whatever word you use, it represents one thing: being a big fatass."
Geraldo Rivera
I can explain why it's less to go to Catholic/private schools though. First, it doesn't have to accomodate EVERYBODY; my school (situated on a hill) is rather handicapped unfriendly (not that we lack one of those extra-large stalls). Second, it doesn't have to admit really really bad students, and you can get kicked out for fighting, no matter who started it.
Er, back to the subject. I know Omega's military-happy and all, but the U.S. alone can destroy the world 16 times over. Isn't that just a teeny bit OVERKILL?
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--Then, said Cranly, do you not intend to become a protestant?
--I said that I had lost the faith, Stephen answered, but not that I had lost self-respect. What kind of liberation would that be to forsake an absurdity which is logical and coherent and to embrace one which is illogical and incoherent?
James Joyce, A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man.
"Not at all. If you're enemies have been completely eliminated, they're not going to attack you again."
True, but Gul Dukat once said that victory does not lie in destroying one's enemies, but in convincing your enemies that they were wrong to oppose you in the first place.
And as for overthrowing the US government, wasn't that what DT was up to?
Ziyal:
"Second, it doesn't have to admit really really bad students, and you can get kicked out for fighting, no matter who started it."
I hope you're not saying those are BAD things. Keeping students that disrupt order does no one any good.
"...the U.S. alone can destroy the world 16 times over. Isn't that just a teeny bit OVERKILL?"
Yeah, just a little. I'd probably want to cut that by about 75%. Four times over is good enough. As long as it's spread out, so as to prevent China from destroying the entire arsenal in one stroke.
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You are wise, witty, and wonderful, but you spend far too much time reading this sort of trash.
Omega: "I hope you're not saying those are BAD things. Keeping students that disrupt order does no one any good."
Obviously. They have no hope of getting a decent education. They're just criminals. There's no point helping them when we can just wash our hands of them.
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"Obesity. Adiposity. Corpulence. Whatever word you use, it represents one thing: being a big fatass."
Geraldo Rivera
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Frank's Home Page
"I'm still amazed at how unintuitive the Windows world is and how it tries to mimic the Mac." - John de Lancie
I will be posting two lists shortly. That, and rankings.
I'm just here to inform, not comment (although will someone else please tackle this idea that Rush and the Repubiclicans have that China is this great power? they couldn't take Taiwan, let alone the US)
(also, will someone please educate the young republican camp as to how idiotic the concept of mutual assured deterence is and how the Cuban Missile Conflict REALLY began, not what we're taught in school and on the news)
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"Here is another word that rhymes with shame" - Kurt Cobain
Blew, Nirvana
DT - Education as you well know is taught in such a way as to support the national interest. Not hinder it. This is especially true of the American system, which is excellent in matters of science and maths, but dodgy as hell when it comes to history and politics.
The Cuban Missile crisis, that's a very complicated issue. You can hardly encompass it in one post. If you are referring to the actual missiles then the issue is totally hypocritical on the US end. America had missiles all along the Russia border in Turkey, all the Russians were doing was evening the score by putting missiles on the US border. Big whoop!
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Samaritan: "A good hot curry will help heal your wounds. That is, unless your religion forbids it".
Man: (Eyes growing wide) "No religion forbids a good hot curry".
-From some movie.
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Frank's Home Page
"I'm still amazed at how unintuitive the Windows world is and how it tries to mimic the Mac." - John de Lancie
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"I've never seen anything this beautiful in the entire galaxy. Alright, give me the bomb" -Ultra Magnus, Fight or Flee
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Samaritan: "A good hot curry will help heal your wounds. That is, unless your religion forbids it".
Man: (Eyes growing wide) "No religion forbids a good hot curry".
-From some movie.
What about those bazillion nuclear-tipped missiles (made with good-old US technology, a la Los Alamos) that they keep pointed our way?
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Dane
"...and there was war in heaven..." The Bible, Revelation 12:7
If you are concerned about nuclear war, look no further than our old pals in Russia. The Chinese nuclear arsenal could barely take out the US major cities, if that. The Russian could destroy this world a few thousand times over. And it'd take less than a minute to re-aim them. The best thing that ever happened to you people was Chechnya. If it wasn't for the patriotic fervor whipped up there, the anti-west politicians - spurred on in popularity by the failure of capitalism and the brutal genocide enacted against Serbia - would've taken power in March. I'd love to see Genady Zyuganov with the ability to nuke this motherfucking planet. It'd be fun just for a laugh.
Anyway, I ask you this. What does all that money spent on the military do to combat the nuclear threat? This reminds me of the moronic idea that you stop terrorism against the US by bombing the Middle East. No, you stop (or at least curb greatly) terrorism by getting the hell out of Isreal.
Let's look at India. Why do they have nuclear weapons? Because China was becoming too much of a power. So they needed to settle it up. If the US gets larger, why wouldn't China want more nukes? If I'm the Chinese premier, I get those without hesitation.
So, please tell me why China is a threat?
If you'd like to refute my thesis that they are not a non-nuclear (conventional) threat, please do. I look forward to hearing your logic.
If you'd like to refute my thesis that they are not as much of a nuclear threat as Russia, please do. I look forward to hearing your logic.
If you'd like to refute my thesis that military spending does not curb a nuclear threat, please do. I am geniunely interested in hearing some opposing thoughts on that matter.
Keep in mind though, this is not a partisan debate. This cannot detiorate into Republicns vs Democrats, Republocrats vs Leftists, etc. This is a strinctly analytical debate. As such, I have Daryus on my side!!! We're unbeatable! :-)
I now leave it to Jay to provide the history lesson regarding the Cuban Missile Crisis.
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"Rape me, do it and do it again" - Kurt Cobain
Rape Me, Nirvana
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Smithers, do you realize if I had died, there would be no one to carry on my legacy. Due to my hectic schedule and lethargic sperm, I never fathered an heir. Now I have no one to leave my enormous fortune to. No one.
~C. Montgomery Burns
You are quite correct about Russia being the biggest threat to us right now. If they ever ask us for money again, we should agree to give it to them only if they dismantle a significant portion of their nuclear arsenal. We should have done that in the first place.
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You are wise, witty, and wonderful, but you spend far too much time reading this sort of trash.
Anyway what's wrong with China or any other nation that's fairly responsible (I'll say fairly because they haven't gone around kicking in any heads recently) having nukes. Hell they have as much of a right to them as America.
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Samaritan: "A good hot curry will help heal your wounds. That is, unless your religion forbids it".
Man: (Eyes growing wide) "No religion forbids a good hot curry".
-From some movie.
[This message has been edited by Daryus Aden (edited January 11, 2000).]
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"I've never seen anything this beautiful in the entire galaxy. Alright, give me the bomb" -Ultra Magnus, Fight or Flee
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Smithers, do you realize if I had died, there would be no one to carry on my legacy. Due to my hectic schedule and lethargic sperm, I never fathered an heir. Now I have no one to leave my enormous fortune to. No one.
~C. Montgomery Burns
Yet, you've brought up an interesting point. Let us examine the relative strengths of the PLAN and USN.
The United States Navy has 8 Nimitz class carriers. The USS Nimitz (CVN-68) is in RCOH right now, but aside from it and the USS Dwight D. Eisenhower (CVN-69), no ship is over 20 years old of this class. The USS Harry S Truman (CVN-75) and the USS John C. Stennis (CVN-74) are both less than 5 years old. The USS Ronald Reagan (CVN 76) is being built now and will be completed in 2002.
The USN has 1 Kennedy class carrier, USS John F. Kennedy (CV-67), which is the only non-nuclear carrier left.
The USN has 1 Enterprise class carrier, USS Enterprise (CVN-65), which is 39 years old, but was reconstructed 18 years ago and again 5 years ago.
The USN has 2 Kitty Hawk class carriers. However, the USS Kitty Hawk (CV-63), which is forwarded deployed to Yokosuka, will be decommissioned in 2008, and the USS Constellation (CV-64) will be decommissioned in 2003.
The USN has three more carriers in reserve.
The PLAN has control of the hulk of the Melbourne, an Australian light carrier.
(there was rumours of a Chinese carrier being started last year, but those have proven, by sheer scientific fact, to be just that, rumours)
The USN has 22 Ticonderoga class cruisers.
The USN has 5 Ticonderoga class cruisers not of the VLS Group.
The PLAN has no cruisers.
The USN has 3 Arleigh Burke class destroyers being fitted out which will be ready before next year is out. 6 more are being built, which will enter service between 2001 and 2003. Another 13 have been ordered, and 6 more planned.
The USN has 28 Arleigh Burke class destroyers (Flight I/II) and have all come into service in the 1990s.
The USN has 34 Spruance class destroyers.
The PLAN has 2 Russian Sovremennyy class destroyers, both of which are currently being fitted out.
The PLAN has 1 Shenzhen class destroyer. The Shenzhen was completed last year, and one, which will be completed in 2001, is currently being built. The Shenzhen, for those unfamiliar with it, is an enlarged version of the Luhu.
The PLAN has 2 Luha class destroyers. For those unfamiliar with the class, these are the pride of the Chinese fleet, and and extensively use western electronics. They are considered, by western standards, obsolete.
Shall I bother examining subs?
Sufficit to say, the PLA has a mediocre at best navy and is no match for the United States.
I will tackle Taiwan later tonight.
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"Rape me, do it and do it again" - Kurt Cobain
Rape Me, Nirvana
China already have 2 SSBN ("Sai" class), and 5 SSN ("Han" class)! And people, WE KNOW THIS FOR A FACT!!
And there is a fatal flaw with the "Carrier Battle Group", it's called the "Maximum Attack"(not exactly sure of the phrase, but what the heck). Russian theorized that if a great number of missles are fire all at the same time (we're talking 10s of missle here all at the same time), the group simply will be overwhelmed by it. The American have come up with a several ways to counter-act this (one of the more famous example would be the Mk-41 missle delivery system), however, Russian DO have high speed (Mech 3 or above), multi-to-sea cruise missle which can decrease the response time to 10-15 seconds, so good luck when 10 of these missles are heading your way.
What's my point you ask? Severl,
1. Chinese do have more than 3 times of U.S. conventional forces, and no matter what you say, it DOES mean a lot. (the more you have, the more you kill, the kill rate over time graph is a rising curve, as time passes, the one with more will have more surviver, therefore gaining the upper hand)
2. There are presently 25 Su-27 serving in Chinese air force, and people, when Chinese trade with the Russian, it's not only about the products, it's also about the "PRODUCTION TECHNOLOGY TRANSFER". Chinese official estimate that Su-27 will be in full production in year 2003, it is SURE that the Chinese air force are going for a one-on-one replacement with the current outdated fighters (guess how many Su-27 they're going to get in the future, and it is a hell of a lot cheaper then F-22 and is only a 10 to 15 years behind of F-22's technology).
And we will be seeing A LOT more of these high tech "production technology transfer" in the future, so the gap of technologies are not going to be as great as you think in the future.
2. Chinese army are well trained, and specialize in gorrila warfare, and we've all seen how the States measured up to that one in the Korean war and Vietname War.
3. Currently, there are not even a close to garranted way to intercept ICBM!! So Chinese ICBM are a treat to the world! (those video of Scud getting shot down by the Patriate are the "BODY" of the missle, usually not the war head)
4. By the way, did you guys check the newspaper about how the Chinese invent the way to detect steath airplane? Not really important, but just to show that technologies are not everything, if some simple settalie dishes can detect a 20 million steath bomber, what's not possible??
5. Taiwanese issue, of course Chinese are not going to lift a finger taking out Taiwan, they have thousands of short range missle that can do the job with a press of the botton (and to think the Taiwanese felt that they're safe by the U.S.S Independence carrier group)
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"20th Century, go to sleep."
--
R.E.M.
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Smithers, do you realize if I had died, there would be no one to carry on my legacy. Due to my hectic schedule and lethargic sperm, I never fathered an heir. Now I have no one to leave my enormous fortune to. No one.
~C. Montgomery Burns
The PLAN has 1 Xia class SSBN. It is undergoing refit at the current time. Some sources report it has a turbo-electric drive.
The PLAN has a new SSN project in the works now that should be launching after 2000.
The PLAN has 5 Han class SSNs. These vessels, if you're unfamiliar with them, are horribly noisy and considered primitive in terms of combat systems. Some sources report they have turbo-electric drives.
The PLAN has 2 improved Kilo class subs. Both are new.
The PLAN has 2 Kilo class subs. Both are currently being refitted in Russia because they became inoperable.
The PLAN has 2 Song class subs. They were originally being built at a rate of two per year, but that was cancelled in favor of the Kilos.
The PLAN has 13 Ming class subs. All are considered obsolete, but used for patrol nonetheless. Two are fitting out, and four are being built.
The PLAN has 65 Romeo class subs. 38 are nominally operational. They are all obsolete, but there is talk of overhauling them.
The PLAN has 1 Golf class SSBN. It is not combat capable.
The PLAN has 1 Wuhan sub. It can launch SSMs. It, however, needs to be above water to do that and has no over the horizon targeting. It is not combat capable.
The USN has 18 Ohio SSBNs. These make up the bulk of the US strategic forces. All other SSBNs have been discarded. Even with that, and if the PLAN can get both of their SSBNs combat ready, the USN would outnumber them 9-1 raw, and even more if you take into account the quality of the subs.
The USN has ordered 4 Virginia class SSNs. They will arrive steadily in 2004, and another 26 are planned.
The USN has 2 Seawolf SSNs. These are the cream of the world's naval crop. Both were completed within 3 years of writing this. The USS Jimmy Carter (SSN-23) is to be completed in 2003.
The USN has 50 Los Angeles class SSNs. They are constantly being upgraded, although the Virginias likely will replace them. Earlier ones have been decommissioned to avoid the cost of refueling.
The USN has 1 Sturgeon class SSN. It will be decommissioned in 2001, likewise all other SSNs have been discarded.
Would someone like to dispute that the US has the superior submarine fleet? By far? The US currently has more SSNs pending scrapping than China has in active service. Likewise with CVs.
Conservatives may try and convince you that the US is in grave danger from China, but navally, that is a staunch joke. The United States Navy has more ships and better ships. The same could likely be said about the crews.
How about in the skies? I'll tackle this within the night. And on land, well, let's just wait until I get some more free time.
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"No, I don't have a gun" - Kurt Cobain
Come As You Are, Nirvana
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Smithers, do you realize if I had died, there would be no one to carry on my legacy. Due to my hectic schedule and lethargic sperm, I never fathered an heir. Now I have no one to leave my enormous fortune to. No one.
~C. Montgomery Burns
Such as whether they have MIRV capability, or if they're still at 'one missile, one warhead' stage. And how many missiles. And how many warheads. and how many "Long March" ballistic rockets.
And whether you think that the ability to deal a punishing blow to the US resides entirely on being able to damage the Pacific fleet, or the ability to unleash carnage on the US's nominal allies/protectorates (Korea, Taiwan, Japan, etc).
In other words, would the US sacrifice Taiwan in order to protect, say, Tokyo, Seoul, and Jakarta?
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Calvin: "No efficiency, no accountability... I tell you, Hobbes, it's a lousy way to run a Universe." -- Bill Watterson
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"I see you have the ring. And that your Schwartz is as big as mine!
-Dark Helmet, Spaceballs
Frankly, their army and air force don't matter. I'll still post my analysis when I find my numbers, but it's academic. We are discussing the United States of America. The only non-naval threat it faces is from Mexico (Canada too, but Mexico is a legitimate threat to attack the US when their government collapses). If you can figure out how China would attack the US, please tell me. If you can figure out how the PLA would attack the US, please tell me how. (I'll tell you, the Korean border)
First makes some good points in regards to allies. I'd like to tackle those at another time. I'll however tackle the nuclear issue now.
Who cares? I don't. Why should you? If they fire on the US, the US fires on them. It's just that easy. We're all too dead afterwards to care. So what does it matter what China has? They'll never reach the levels of the US and Russia (and if they did, so what?). As my conservative pal pointed out, there is no way to shoot down ICBMs. So why worry? What we should be doing is working to disarm the US and these other countries. You don't do this by spending MORE! You do this on fostering cooperation. By spitting in the face of these old treaties with the Soviets, the US is ensuring the world becomes more dangerous.
Now, as for those conservative friends of mine...
Taiwan... well, as long as the US supports them, China won't nuke them. China nukes them, US nukes China, good night everyone. This ain't Commander and Conquer or whatever computer game it is you people play. No one is going to use nukes. Ever. Cause if you use them, everyone does. Thus, it's over. The Taiwanese can sleep safely.
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"Never met a wise man, if so it was a woman" - Kurt Cobain
Territorial Pissings, Nirvana
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I bet when Neanderthal kids would make a snowman, someone would
always end up saying "Don't forget the big heavy eyebrows." Then they would all get embarrassed because they remembered they had the big hunky eyebrows too, and then they would get mad and eat the snowman.
-Jack Handey
That's why they ordered the Su-27. That's why India ordered the T-90.
But China's procurement of those planes (or rather, their attempted procurement) doesn't bother the rational thinking man. They'd need to put all of those into air wings, which is not likely, as India will buy the same weapons from Russia. Now, unless India is going to join NATO, that's not a threat to America. Moreover, the F-22 is still a marginally superior plane, produced in higher quantities, and with better crews.
The key to everything I said there is "better crews." Anyone remember when that F-14 shot down a MiG-29 over Serbia? If we went straight on planes, that American motherfucker would've been dead (as he deserved for violating Serbian sovereignty). But he wasn't. Because a better trained pilot can beat the better plane. I reccomend you go back and read the tactical theories formulated by the German aces of WWI. They've held true for 80 years. China's pilots get less air time than, say, German pilots.
BTW, I was just perusing the DoD. Who do you think they said is more likely to be a peer? Russia or China?
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"Never met a wise man, if so it was a woman" - Kurt Cobain
Territorial Pissings, Nirvana
Well, the Sukhoi 27 is inferior to the F-15E and vastly inverior to the F-22. So, even if you believe in the falty notion that planes are more important than pilots, that pretty much ruins your theory about China. Hell, Vietnam has 14 of those, and about 24 more ordered. They're common. (incidentally, Vietnam is quickly become a modern military)
I suggest you double check and see if they're really Su-36s.
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"Never met a wise man, if so it was a woman" - Kurt Cobain
Territorial Pissings, Nirvana
Granted, the F-22 will be highly superior, if it ever gets off the ground. And once full scale production of the F-18E/F and the JSF[X-32/35] begin, noone will come close to having the air superiority the USAF will.
(DT, I'm really impressed with your research on this particular subject. There's no blatent, biased, uneducated opinons (Well, not many ), but you seem to know what you're talking about.)
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I bet when Neanderthal kids would make a snowman, someone would
always end up saying "Don't forget the big heavy eyebrows." Then they would all get embarrassed because they remembered they had the big hunky eyebrows too, and then they would get mad and eat the snowman.
-Jack Handey
(I know they'e both not really Fighter aircraft, but it was just an example.)
I would imagine, then, if you were to rate air forces by the skill level and the ability to use what they have, that China would be pretty low. So would Russia, due to the lack of training many of the pilots recieve. I think Israel or Britain might be near the top. (Oh, and Canada too! With our 79 F-18's! )
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I bet when Neanderthal kids would make a snowman, someone would
always end up saying "Don't forget the big heavy eyebrows." Then they would all get embarrassed because they remembered they had the big hunky eyebrows too, and then they would get mad and eat the snowman.
-Jack Handey
Ah, now THAT's the state's-rights, 'Sovreignty Uber Alles' DT I remember.
Careful, Omega might agree with you. Then you'll be screwed.
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Calvin: "No efficiency, no accountability... I tell you, Hobbes, it's a lousy way to run a Universe." -- Bill Watterson
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You are wise, witty, and wonderful, but you spend far too much time reading this sort of trash.
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"20th Century, go to sleep."
--
R.E.M.
First: States rights in the correct sense, not in the connotative. This goes to how one interperts the constitution. Since the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia is a sovereign state (as opposed to Alabama) it is granted rights that an American state should not have.
Omega: Nuremberg.
Ultra: Thank you. But I generally prefer making off-the-wall assessments :-)
Actually, (here you go Simon and Jay) the information was needed in the work I do for the Field Marshal Military Project!!!
http://fieldmarshal.virtualave.net
It's the place to be!
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"Never met a wise man, if so it was a woman" - Kurt Cobain
Territorial Pissings, Nirvana
Oh, and in case anyone doesn't know, Nuremburg was where the Nazi war criminals were tried after WW2. There were 22 of them, IIRC. A good number got the death sentance, but one managed to escape execution by getting his hands on some poison (his name escapes me). Their main defense was that they were only following orders. IMHO, IT deserves the title of "Trial of the Century", not that piddling O.J. trial or the impeachment, but considering that nine out of ten people on the street probably haven't even heard of it...
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You are wise, witty, and wonderful, but you spend far too much time reading this sort of trash.
However, you're drawing a distinction which shouldn't be. Violating airspace, yes. But this was in a war of agression. Under the Nuremberg decisions, that is the worst war crime of all, and supercedes the other crimes of war. Now, we can debate whether the war was just or not. But it was, legally, a war of agression. Thus, by engaging in it, even if only following orders, that pilot deserved to be disciplined through either life in prison or death by hanging.
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"She's just as bored as me." - Kurt Cobain
Polly, Nirvana
--Baloo
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"Politicians and diapers should be changed regularly, for the same reason."
--(Unknown)
Come Hither and Yawn...
You'll find it at: http://fieldmarshal.virtualave.net
And yeah, we're looking for volunteers!
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Samaritan: "A good hot curry will help heal your wounds. That is, unless your religion forbids it".
Man: (Eyes growing wide) "No religion forbids a good hot curry".
-From some movie.
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"20th Century, go to sleep."
--
R.E.M.
Keep in mind, this is all pretty basic stuff. I know there are more accurate and specific definitions somewhere. I don't know where, but I've seen them in the past. I suggest looking into the UN Charter too.
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"She's just as bored as me." - Kurt Cobain
Polly, Nirvana
As for Iraq, what exactly are you talking about? The Gulf War was ended by truce. Iraq violated that truce. In the most accurate sense, the Gulf War has never stopped. (Of course, one could also argue that using an international peacekeeping organization as a cover for spy activities might be a violation of such a truce as well, at least in spirit. At any rate, the war is still going.)
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"20th Century, go to sleep."
--
R.E.M.
(For those of you who missed it, that was sarcasm).
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Samaritan: "A good hot curry will help heal your wounds. That is, unless your religion forbids it".
Man: (Eyes growing wide) "No religion forbids a good hot curry".
-From some movie.
Incidentally, the Serbian/Chechnyan link is stronger than many would think. The Russian response to the NATO war of agression (ie, not helping the Serbians except in small units and the brilliant move at the end of the war which confounded that idiot Clark) was calculated so as to be able to pull-off the war against the Chechens. (sidepoint on Chechnya: Why was the Baltic states recognized as independent yet Chechnya not? lollipop to the first person who can answer correctly!)
Moreover, even if the Kosovans had declared for independence, ala Croatia, (which was recognized instantly by the Germans, any surprise there?) the Serbians still would have had the right to invade. I cite for you the American Civil War. We've all agreed that Lincoln had every right to preserve the Union. Likewise, Milosevic had every right to preserve the Union of Yugoslavia. The United States and Germany (again, any surprise there?) prevented him from doing that the first time. The analogy I give you is if Great Britain had given the Confederacy the support they seeked and they won the Civil War. If Michigan then seceded, would Lincoln not have had the right to invade?
Keep in mind Simon, you don't want to argue Serbia with me. I'd wager I've spent more time researching that than any of you. Shit, I just say the word "Krajina" and I can preempt about ten of your arguements. Which reminds me, Krajina.
Daryus: Yeah, but they ain't white. Fuck em.
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"She's just as bored as me." - Kurt Cobain
Polly, Nirvana
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"20th Century, go to sleep."
--
R.E.M.
In a previous "life" (ie. career), I spent many hours aboard coalition aircraft over the southern no-fly zone, and when you get "painted" by an Iraqi SAM radar before even leaving friendly airspace, the line between "aggressor" and "defender" blurs very quickly.
Sure, I question our motives in the establishment the northern and southern no-fly/no-drive zones... but remember that Iraq was and is a defeated aggressor state. They forfeited a certain part of their sovereignty when they lost the Gulf War (for example, the right to manufacture weapons of mass destruction and the means to deliver them, or the right to move military vehicles/weapon systems in certain parts of their territory). I'm certainly no historian, but weren't the same types of restrictions placed on Germany and Japan after they capitulated in 1945? I believe it is the intent of the United Nations to restore to Iraq her full sovereignty when she proves she can handle it responsibly. (I don't necessarily think this is the intent of the United States, but that's another story...)
And Daryus... "Economic sanctions aren't an act of war. Especially when they have killed a mere 1 million children under the age of 5." Didn't UNICEF determine last year that the root cause of these deaths (their number was far less than one million) was the mis-allocation of funds by the Iraqi government, in other words, their funneling of funds into military projects that they've supposedly agreed by truce to abandon?
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Dane
"...and there was war in heaven..." The Bible, Revelation 12:7
[This message has been edited by Dane Simri (edited January 18, 2000).]
Dane: No. But I'll address the embargo soon.
First, let's discuss Saddam Hussein. His war was a war of agression. One not at all opposed by the US. I point you to the comments by American ambassador April Glaspie who said, and I quote, "We have no opinion on the Arab-Arab conflicts, like your border disagreement with Kuwait." Or perhaps I should point you to the comments of then assistant Secretary of State John Kelly, made to a congressional committee just two days before Iraq occupied Kuwait, that the US had no obligation to defend Kuwait against an Iraqi invasion. If such a conflict were to erupt, he said, it would be viewed by the United States as "a private matter" between the countries involved.
Incidentally, it seems Iraq was not committing an act of agression until the US wanted it to be an act of agression (of course, American definition of that term is very fluid, I assure you).
Anyway, regarding the sanctions, allow me to quote UNICEF.
quote:
"Even if not all suffering in Iraq can be imputed to external factors, especially sanctions, the Iraqi people would not be undergoing such deprivations in the absence of the prolonged measures imposed by the Security Council and the effects of the war."
Another thing we should keep in mind is the state of Iraq. Outside of Baghdad, there are no telephones. There are no refrigerated trucks ANYWHERE. Many places don't have electricity. That definitely makes distribution VERY difficult. Incidentally, who created those conditions?
And I point you to this. The sanctions extend far beyond the military. They are an attempt at cultural and literal genocide. Or have "we" vetoed giving the children toys, bicycles, film, ping pong balls, paper, textbooks, storybooks because they can be used as weapons? (well, they can, against Isreal and the US because if those Iraqi children are educated then when they grow up, the ragheads will know their history, and knowing history is dangerous to those who have committed the crimes)
Gawd, all this reading about Basra is making me feel wierd. It's almost surreal. I need to go lie down.
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"I'd rather be dead than cool" - Kurt Cobain
Stay Away, Nirvana
Should have pushed into Bagdad back during the whole Desert Storm thing, slagged Hussein, and found some nice old Western-Educated former medical doctor or something to replace him.
Sure, it'd have gotten us screamed at in Arabic by our allies... but people'd be a lot less hungry.
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Calvin: "No efficiency, no accountability... I tell you, Hobbes, it's a lousy way to run a Universe." -- Bill Watterson
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"20th Century, go to sleep."
--
R.E.M.
I think the best equation with Iraq is the US circa the Mexican War. America, a very young nation, recklessly invades another country, one they have no right to invade, but it works out for economic reasons. They easily conquer them, since the other country is pretty much defenceless. Now, let's say Prussia, who was greatly superior, came running over with England, France, and Austria all in tow. They proceed to beat the shit out the US. Then, they completely cut the US off from the rest of the world (except for the tobbacco and cotton which they themselves take in exchange for small amounts of food). They regularly destroy American fortifications, even after they're rebuilt. They then restrict the American's ability to develop rifles, ships or smoothbore cannons (which, as for the latter two, everyone else already has). Whenever they choose, Prussia and Austria destroy the US armories and pursue a scorched earth policy, decimating whatever meager military the US builds.
Who here would've liked that? Well, see, we're Americans (white Europeans, at that) so it better not happen to us!
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"I'd rather be dead than cool" - Kurt Cobain
Stay Away, Nirvana
Back in late June, Isreali war planes struck two power stations near Beirut, blew up a telephone communications facility and destroyed two bridges linking Beirut with the south, as well as bombing a four story building in Baalbeck during their 8 hour bombardment of Lebanon. At least 9 people died, while over 60 were wounded. The damage to the electrical and communications plants alone is estimated to be over $50 million dollars.
The air attacks were launched in retaliation for rocket attacks on settlements in Northern Isreal by Hezbollah.
Major General Dan Halutz, assistant chief of operations, said future attacks would target "all sources of power in Lebanon, not just Hezbollah, to convey a message that no one is imune to an Isreali retaliation."
Did the United States engage in a bombing campaign against Isreal? Let us look at the statements of US State Department spokesman James Rubin for the answer.
"This situation escalated dramatically as a result of Hezbollah firing barrages of Katyushas into northern Isreal. Isreal retaliated with strikes against civilian infrastructures in Lebanon."
Interesting.
Oh, on another note, I'm glad we stopped Slobodan Milosevic's brutal strikes on Kosovo.
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"I'd rather be dead than cool" - Kurt Cobain
Stay Away, Nirvana
Of course, since no such global outlook existed at the time (indeed, only the U.S. really pushed the global view, and then not until after WWI), the analogy is rather moot.
Yes, yes, we all know the initial Serbian attacks on Kosovo Albanians were "in response to actions by KLA terrorists..."
Of course, the Nazis claimed they were responding to earlier Jewish attacks during Kristallnacht, too.
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Calvin: "No efficiency, no accountability... I tell you, Hobbes, it's a lousy way to run a Universe." -- Bill Watterson
Moreover, let's just say your little fantasy trip there is correct. That can apply to anywhere. The Isrealis claim that Hezbollah fired those rockets. I'm going to pretend I'm First now.
"Yeah, Hezbollah did it. And the Jews were responsible for the Nazi Holocaust. Why aren't we bombing the Isrealis into the stone ages?"
Oh, wait, that's not right. I left out one little bit. That naivity, that absolute trust in everything CNN tells you. That undying patriotism. Let's try it again.
"So? It was obviously Hezbollah. Even if it wasn't, we need to support Isreal. Afterall, we're Americans. We have a natural connection to any country founded on driving someone off of their land and then exterminating them."
See, that's the problem with Americans. They don't seem to understand that even if Belgrade was worthy of bombing, so is Jerusalem and Ankara and Lima and Mexico City and Jakarta and Moscow and Beijing and Madrid.
So, where are the bombs?
None of you people will ever understand anything about this war until you understand the true reasons for it. I dare anyone of you to tell me what General Jackson was known for before commanding KFOR. If you can reconcile that, then I will truly believe you. Until one of you give me a good explanation over Jackson, you're all just brainwashed CNN viewers.
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"I'd rather be dead than cool" - Kurt Cobain
Stay Away, Nirvana
You're straying back into ad hominem arguments again, the same thing that got you ridiculed last time.
Well, let's see, I know Hezbollah did it. I know Israel overreacted. Israel didn't invade again, despite having been invaded twice in recent memory, and certainly having the capability to carry it out.
I know the best way to deal with a terrorist organization is to quietly hunt down and silently eliminate that organization's members (something, apparently, nobody but the Russians and Israelis ever knew how to do, and they've forgotten), rather to invade an entire country. Of course, the USSR's plan for dealing with a terrorist attack was to have tanks outside Tehran the next morning, (which is why, despite the ayatollah's identifying BOTH the US and the USSR as 'great satans,' they never seemed to attack the Reds much) but nobody'll say that out loud.
Personally, I think Hezbollah is a much larger threat to Israel's security than the KLA ever was to Serbias, but you're welcome to argue otherwise. I could be wrong. Who's blown up more buses?
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Calvin: "No efficiency, no accountability... I tell you, Hobbes, it's a lousy way to run a Universe." -- Bill Watterson
Yet, you have no problem supporting Isreal. Yet you applaud the bombing of Serbia.
You've yet to address that. You've yet to address why the US is not bombing all those other countries I've mentioned. You've yet to tell me how Michael Jackson is involved. You've yet to tell me why the US was really in there.
Work on those, then I'll get back to you.
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"I can't let you smother me. I'd like to but it wouldn't work." - Kurt Cobain
Lounge Act, Nirvana
Perhaps this is not what you were referring to, so I will check further.
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Calvin: "No efficiency, no accountability... I tell you, Hobbes, it's a lousy way to run a Universe." -- Bill Watterson
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"I can't let you smother me. I'd like to but it wouldn't work." - Kurt Cobain
Lounge Act, Nirvana
When the UN carried out its investigations into human rights, Israel refused to let the UN into the Occupied Territories.
Let's bomb Israel!
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"I can't let you smother me. I'd like to but it wouldn't work." - Kurt Cobain
Lounge Act, Nirvana
but Baloo, I think I have more on the war of agression. This isn't technically in that vein, but it does have to do with what a legal war is.
Per the UN Charter (which is the Supreme law of the land, whether anti-UN nuts want to admit it or not) the use or threat of force against other nations except in self defence to an armed attack is only allowed if it is authorized by the Security Council. Now, I'm not a big fan of the Security Council, but it can often work to a positive goal. As many reservations as I have about the Gulf War, it was legal. The current bombings, however, are not. And the war against Serbia was likewise illegal.
Now, for those who are sure of the might of NATO, I point you to Article 53 which states that "no enforcement action shall be taken under regional arrangements or by regional agencies without the authorization of the Security Council."
There ya go then.
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"I can't let you smother me. I'd like to but it wouldn't work." - Kurt Cobain
Lounge Act, Nirvana
Since the Russians aren't in NATO, I somehow doubt it.
*Checks Encyclopedia*
NATO has its own Council. It doesn't report to the UN.
Someone has been playing with definitions?
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Calvin: "No efficiency, no accountability... I tell you, Hobbes, it's a lousy way to run a Universe." -- Bill Watterson
When I refer to the Security Council, I mean the UN Security Council. Russia, China, US, Britain, France. Since two of those are not in NATO... I think that's pretty obvious.
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"I can't let you smother me. I'd like to but it wouldn't work." - Kurt Cobain
Lounge Act, Nirvana
Now, if NATO were to be assimilated into the UN, that would be something else entirely.
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Calvin: "No efficiency, no accountability... I tell you, Hobbes, it's a lousy way to run a Universe." -- Bill Watterson
The UN _IS_ the _SUPREME_ law for the NATO members. I do not believe a single NATO member is not likewise a United Nations member. Therefor, NATO is subject to UN law. The only way that is not the case is if the individual members of NATO withdraw from the United Nations.
Now, as I've said in the past, the US is a rogue state, so it doesn't matter.
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"Don't have a mind" - Kurt Cobain
Breed, Nirvana
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Samaritan: "A good hot curry will help heal your wounds. That is, unless your religion forbids it".
Man: (Eyes growing wide) "No religion forbids a good hot curry".
-From some movie.
Ah.. so sovreignty IS unimportant.
P.S. Helms is either an idiot or a fanatic. Possibly both.
BTW, how long does it take to go from a States-Rights-st to a Marxist? 2 or 3 PoliSci professors? Just wondering, no insult intended.
I only ever had one PoliSci prof, and I knew more than he did (he said the Soviet Union would NEVER break up, and that NATO would not expand beyond its 1989 members).
I had a sociology prof for two years, but he knew even less (but being a liberal minister can have that effect, I'm told).
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Calvin: "No efficiency, no accountability... I tell you, Hobbes, it's a lousy way to run a Universe." -- Bill Watterson
I took a nap after work today, and I dreamed that someone had announced that they had applied chaos theory (of human behaviour) to socialism.
I've either just come up with the best idea ever had, or I've been thinking about all this too much.
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Calvin: "No efficiency, no accountability... I tell you, Hobbes, it's a lousy way to run a Universe." -- Bill Watterson
I think that the current level of Spending is nessecary considering how many enemies the USA has. And one must take into consideration, that the list only shows public spending in the millitary it does not show how much countries have invested in thier black projects and such.
And i think that we should just assinate the SOB Sadam, and Milosovich.
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I am not responsible for the stupidity of other people.
And the US creates its own enemies. Moreover, as I have shown in many cases, some of these countries don't have the GNP to come close to competing with the US. Until someone makes more of an arguement than you, I'm going to stay with my opinion.
First: My PolySci professor campaigned for Nixon/Agnew! I had to enlighten him in regards to the left on many occassions.
My "conversion" to Trotskyism was actually a very drawn out process. I've drifted through many camps since I was 15. Democrats, Populists, Libertarians, Republicans, Maoists, Trotskyists... really, it's long been the same underlying thread, just an inability to express it. My understanding of socialism came only when I turned my attention deeper into economic and social issues. Whereas this is not incompatible with state's rights, my theories on states rights came more from a misunderstanding of the constitution.
As for the UN, it is the supreme law. That is not a matter of surrendering sovereignty, it is a matter of entering into a treaty in which you agree to give up a certain level of it. To what extent? You have to abide by international law. That's pretty simple. If the US doesn't like it, they can withdraw from the United Nations. I do not understand this amazing hesitation Americans have to accepting international law. Particularly in the case of causes of war.
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"Don't have a mind" - Kurt Cobain
Breed, Nirvana
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Samaritan: "A good hot curry will help heal your wounds. That is, unless your religion forbids it".
Man: (Eyes growing wide) "No religion forbids a good hot curry".
-From some movie.
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I am not responsible for the stupidity of other people.
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"Don't have a mind" - Kurt Cobain
Breed, Nirvana
"Oi! Let's build a powderkeg of smouldering ethnic resentment, what!"
"Oui, sounds like a good idea to moi."
"Ja, vateffer."
I've decided that we should have kept out of it, let the Euros clean up their own messes. Really.
What? They were appallingly ineffective at it the last couple of times? Oh, well. You can't make an omelette...
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Calvin: "No efficiency, no accountability... I tell you, Hobbes, it's a lousy way to run a Universe." -- Bill Watterson
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Frank's Home Page
John Linnell: "This song is called...it's called..."
Audience: "Louisiana! Montana!"
John Linnell: Don't tell me what it's called..."
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Calvin: "No efficiency, no accountability... I tell you, Hobbes, it's a lousy way to run a Universe." -- Bill Watterson
It sounds kind of like the concept of prisons. If the people inside are not kept under some sort of effective supervision, the ones to suffer most tend to be the ones they hate on the inside, followed by the ones they hate on the outside.
--Baloo
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"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts."
--Bertrand Russell (1872-1970)
Come Hither and Yawn...
It reminds me of the old adage. The people in Poland suffered under "communist" rule. The people in Bolivia suffered under "democratic" rule. But no American cared about the Bolivians.
Anyway, the FMMP Forums are back up, so I don't need to continue this conversation any longer :-)
Adios
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"Don't have a mind" - Kurt Cobain
Breed, Nirvana
Anyone have any other sites which are of military intrest?
Could someone post any they know of.
WOuld love to know of more.
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I did'nt do it.
Complete with forums too
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"Don't have a mind" - Kurt Cobain
Breed, Nirvana
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"20th Century, go to sleep."
--
R.E.M.
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Samaritan: "A good hot curry will help heal your wounds. That is, unless your religion forbids it".
Man: (Eyes growing wide) "No religion forbids a good hot curry".
-From some movie.
Michael Jackson, commander of KFOR (the occupational army in Kosovo) was second in command at Bloody Sunday.
You may speculate on the irony at will
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"Don't have a mind" - Kurt Cobain
Breed, Nirvana
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Samaritan: "A good hot curry will help heal your wounds. That is, unless your religion forbids it".
Man: (Eyes growing wide) "No religion forbids a good hot curry".
-From some movie.
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"Don't have a mind" - Kurt Cobain
Breed, Nirvana
Explain to me why the Jews deserved to be exterminated, why they didn't deserve rights extended to other human beings.
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Frank's Home Page
John Linnell: "This song is called...it's called..."
Audience: "Louisiana! Montana!"
John Linnell: Don't tell me what it's called..."
Anyway, the point I'm making here is might is not right. If it was, the Jews deserved extermination. But it's not.
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"Don't have a mind" - Kurt Cobain
Breed, Nirvana