Saturday 4/8/2000
I went to Dr. Neff's house tonight and felt that I was to prayed over there. Dr. Neff holds a prayer meeting in his basement every Saturday night during the school year. We prayed to start off as always and worshipped through song as always. Dr. Neff said God told him there was one there that needed to be prayed over who had a chronic illness. I raised my hand and said that earlier I felt I should be prayed over and I told everyone my three illnesses: Allergies, Asthma, and Cerebral Palsy. Everyone immediately agreed that it was me who should be prayed for. I stood up at this point and the entire crowd there prayed over and laid hands over me. Dr. Neff anointed me with a lot of oil and we began to pray. Dr. Neff shook immediately, many people were praying in tongues, and I felt the people on my right vibrating. I could feel a tingle over my entire body as people touched my voice box, my back, the back of my head, and my eyes and nose. They prayed over all this and more, even the nerves in my body and the Central Nervous System. We must have been praying for half an hour and I felt that same tingling in my body for a long time after we were done praying specifically for me. My hands now appear to be the same size and I actually feel taller! I feel taller because my right leg has always been shorter than my left and if God has healed that then I would be taller (I had a limp). My eyes no longer itch and I feel like I never have before.
My right foot is tingling but it is still crooked; yet, that is not a real problem in any way I can think of right now. Regardless of that, I physically feel better than I ever have. Of course, I will have to see a Doctor to see if any physical transformation has taken place. I tell you that my foot is still crooked to help you believe I am not lying to you. Whether any transformation has taken place or not is not the point. When I completely allowed God in my life a few years back He made me content with who I am and He told me that He will use me no matter what. My "life" verse is Exo. 4:12: God told Moses he would help him to speak and teach him what to say. I praise God I have never asked to have my own personal "Aaron" come to speak for me. Even if God has done nothing permanent tonight, just the sheer feeling of his presence and love is more than enough for me to write this and praise His name for�just being who He is!
When I was younger, I did not believe in this kind of healing, but I have seen so much of it this year at school that to doubt it exists is impossible. A lot of people don't believe in it either, but I pray that through this account of my evening all may come to believe in it. For anyone who does not believe in Jesus Christ, I pray this will make you reconsider His existence. He is out there, He is good and He can change your life. He knows what is best for you. I promise this to you, if He is allowed to enter your heart He will eventually make you content with all that you are and all that you have.
In His Love,
Michael J. Peters
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We have now sunk to a depth at which restatement of the
obvious is the first duty of intelligent men."
George Orwell
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"This ship will not survive the formation of the cosmos..."
-B'Elanna Torres, VOY: "Death Wish"
Having said that, you obviously want some sort of debate, else why post?
I truly and sincerely hope you find the miracle cure you're looking for. However, you've made a causal connection between prayer and feeling better without any evidence of that connection.
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"What did it mean to fly? A tremor in your soul. To resist the dull insistance of gravity."
--
Camper Van Beethoven
Criminetly, people.
Yeh, I hope you find your miracle cure too. But i'd not wager a penny on it.
You want to hear about MY weekend? Call this an 'antiwitnessing,' perhaps?
Friday my girlfriend's sister took her to the hospital. She'd been ill for a week, and had suddenly gotten worse.
Now, it should be noted that my girlfriend has a long history of illness, as she not only had to have major surgery to remove sideways cervical (no relation to cervix) ribs that were slowly killing her, but sufferes from constant excruciating migraines, interstitial cystitis (a disease so painful that 20% of its victims attempt suicide), and was severely abused as a child, leading to her needing to have a total hysterectomy, and having post-traumatic stress disorder and panic attacks.
She's also allergic to most forms of pain medication, the exceptions unfortunately being a few unpleasantly narcotic medicines (such as demerol), with reactions ranging from painful to life-threatening.
So anyway, the ER doctor gave her a spinal tap, which anyone whose had one can tel you is not at all pleasant, because he thought she might have meningitis (Uniontown doctors aren't known for their competence.) He categorically refused to treat her with medicine we knew would work. Instead, he gave her something untested, and promptly sent her home.
(I will here remark that this same doctor "treated" my gf's other sister's two girls after they were in a car accident, and not only missed a broken bone and a shard of glass in one, but yelled at the 14-year old because she couldn't read an eye chart -- no wonder, with both eyes swollen nearly shut -- and yelled at the 10-year-old for 'getting off her back board' -- which she had been strapped to and couldn't possiblt have freed herself from without a paamedic.)
Needless to say, the 'treatment' was not effective, and she was back in the hospital 12 hours later... and then again, 8 hours after that. This third time, we ran into the same doctor. By now she was not only completely sick, vomiting and worse, but in the middle of a full-blown panic episode. Our young doctor 'friend' decided she was an addict in withdrawal (FYI, having known the woman for two-and a half years, I can unequivocally state that this is not the case.) And would not treat her with ANYTHING.
Luckily, our demands for another doctor were met, and we got her some treatment... but the damage was done.
Sunday she had an 'episode' which involved a near-regression to childhood, and a withdrawal from reality into somewhere she would be 'safe.' _I_ had to 'go in' and bring her out of this, something which required me to take myself to places of my own that I swore I'd never visit again... but I brought her out... with some fumbling help from her sisters.
And just when I thought we were past the darkness... her sister calls me at 10 last night and asks if I could please come over and help. So I did, being who I am. This caused unbelievable strife with my parents, who, not knowing the full situation nor really being willing to try, believe she's manipulating me with her illness. It also didn't help that I had to go to work this morning, and sitting up all night in a strange house on an uncomfortable fold-away bed wasn't going to help any... but I went.
And she (and I) finally realized I can't take care of her ALL the time. Which nearly caused its own meltdown all over again.
So here I am. Tired, beat, and through Hell in four short days. I could give tours.
And not a single word of encouragement from 'above.'
so *Thpbthbpthbpthbpth!* :P
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"Nobody knows this, but I'm scared all the time... of what I might do, if I ever let go." -- Michael Garibaldi
I would like to say at this point that if there was anyone who I could give a reincarnation pill to, to let them lead a normal, relatively stress and trouble free life, it would be First of Two. He's one of those rare people who says that he's lived through hell, and, amazingly, he actually has. If I were older, and richer, and had some balls, I'd invite him to come live with me for a year, in a non-gay way, so that we could talk and hang and drink and laugh and watch TV and have nothing depressing happen to us apart from maybe missing Buffy. (Don't worry, I'll be screaming at him again by next week).
Okay, next point: They were looking for someone who had a chronic illness. And allergies and asthma count as that do they? Not to be harsh, (and ignoring the fact that asthma is one of the biggest placebo diseases there is. Sure people do suffer from it, but about half the people who have a pumb have it because 1/ The doctor wanted a quite life, or 2/ Their parents are hypocondriacs, or 3/ They are hypocondiriacs, or 4/ They forgot their PE kit and didn't want to do the run in the rain.) but isn't asthma a kind of allergy? And what exactly do you mean by "allergy"? I have hay fever. It's not going to make me want to have strangers run their hands over me and shout gibberish at me.
The cerebral palsey is a bit more serious though. Still, I''ve known a couple of people who've got it. It's hardly in the same catagory as beign blind, or being complety confined to a wheelchair is it?
Also, if this happened to me, the FIRST thing I'd do is go and get some proof. Which maybe why I don't hang around dubious guys who like shouting gibberish at strangers, but anyway, how hard would it have been to check, eh? Five minutes with a tape measure.
But you say that the physical transformation is not the point. Well then, what is? If it's that you feel better, then bully for you. Still, it's not anything that a good psychiatrist, or ten minutes down the pub with your mates, or some good old fashioned opium couldn't have done.
I had more points, but having retyped this after a power-cut, I've reconsidered typing them. Still (and this is more out of curiosity than anything), I thought only God got the Him treatment. I thought Jesus got a small "h".
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"Sometimes I wish the planet would be scoured with cleansing fire. Other times I just wish Frank would be."
Sol System
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"Compared to you, every male on this ship is an expert on women!"
-Geordi LaForge to Wesley Crusher, TNG: "Sarek"
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"What did it mean to fly? A tremor in your soul. To resist the dull insistance of gravity."
--
Camper Van Beethoven
[This message has been edited by Sol System (edited April 12, 2000).]
Jesus talks to God in the Bible, and unless he's somehow related to Bruce Banner, I doubt it's a sign of MPD.
And in the bible, I'm pretty sure Jesus doesn't get a capital 'h'.
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"Sometimes I wish the planet would be scoured with cleansing fire. Other times I just wish Frank would be."
Sol System
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"Sometimes I wish the planet would be scoured with cleansing fire. Other times I just wish Frank would be."
Sol System
I'd also take a tape recorder to any 'speaking in tongues' sessions, then try and find a linguist who can analize it and describe the language.
Since most people have never HEARD any ancient tongues, convincing gibberish isn't hard to manufacture... Okrand did it for the Klingons, after all...
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"Nobody knows this, but I'm scared all the time... of what I might do, if I ever let go." -- Michael Garibaldi
Some speaking in tongues is intended to be translated by others. If you know for a fact that person A does not have a working knowledge of language B, yet you hear person A speak in language B (which you do know), this is evidence (though not necessarily proof) that something out of the ordinary is occurring.
I was also, for a time, a member of a Charismatic church. A Charismatic church is kind of like the Pentecostals (though I'm not precisely sure what the difference is) or like the holy rollers (without the rolling 
). One way tongues was used would be for one person to pray in tongues. Then another person would receive the translation. These were generally prophetic or instructional (generally the latter) exhortations, given by the holy spirit. It's been a while since I attended that church (over 20 years), so I can't recite any specific examples.
Another way tongues is expressed is in private prayer. What happens when I pray that way is that I just utter nonsense syllables (privately, of course -- I understand it would definitely give someone an inaccurate impression -- I'm weird, just not the way that this would imply ). I figure that God knows what my problems are and what I need -- let Him sort it out. When you were an infant (before you could speak) and had needs, you would cry out to your mother -- she probably had a pretty good idea what your problem was. That's pretty much how that form of tongues works.
As far as the rest of the above is concerned, bryce had something interesting and exciting happen to him, of a religious nature, and he wanted to share this experience with his friends. If he'd been a native American telling about his vision quest, you would have asked questions and listened respectfully, if not credulously, or possibbly ignored this thread. As it turns out, he practices a religion you perceive as being filled with charlatans and their idiot-child followers, so you heckle him and call him three kinds of idiot.
Infinite diversity in infinite combination? Well, maybe, but not if you're a Christian. Had he been telling you all how much better he was than the rest of you because of his experience, I'dve been in the front row throwing overripe tomatoes. As it stands, I'm a bit disgusted.
--Baloo
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"Just because you know you're right doesn't mean you are."
-- Me
http://www.geocities.com/cyrano_jones.geo/
[This message has been edited by Baloo (edited April 12, 2000).]
I assume First of Two's segment is nonsense, and it's too small a sample anyway, but it's fun to look at.
"Anooka weeka wa naga naga del der an tagad bo iuuto bosh! Toron go bosh!"
The use of "bosh" in both sentences would probably indicate that it's a noun/pronoun, or perhaps a verb. I'm guessing noun/pronoun because the sentences probably describe related action, being paired up, but that needn't be the case.
The repetition of "naga" might be for emphasis.
-a might be a case ending, because of the string of words ending in it. Maybe one of the words is a noun and the other are modifying adjectives. For example, "Anooka" could be the noun, with the adjectives following it, if "naga naga" indicates an adjective or adverb empasized (like "really really" etc.)
If I'm right about the pronoun thing and the case ending thing, the verb lies somewhere in "del der an tagad bo iuuto." Likewise, the verb of the second sentence could be in "toron go." There's a parallel here, with "tagad bo" and "toron go." The -o words might be tense particles, with the other words the verbs. Maybe the tagading happened in the past, and the toroning is happening now, or something like that.
That leaves "del der an" and "iuuto" in the first sentence. Those could be more adverbs, or a prepositional phrase, etc.
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Frank's Home Page
"It's easy to learn to drive a golf cart, but it's hard to express yourself in one." - Larry Wall
[This message has been edited by The Shadow (edited April 12, 2000).]
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"Compared to you, every male on this ship is an expert on women!"
-Geordi LaForge to Wesley Crusher, TNG: "Sarek"
Same goes for NDE's, Alien-got-me stories, other 'faith healing' instances, et cetera. Until some old guy with a scraggly beard grabs my hand and restores my left middle finger to 100% working order, I will treat these things as I would any other non-credible flight of fancy.
Of course, my totem animal (according to my N.Am. religion-following friend) IS Coyote, so I could just be messing with your minds.
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"Nobody knows this, but I'm scared all the time... of what I might do, if I ever let go." -- Michael Garibaldi
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"Just because you know you're right doesn't mean you are."
-- Me
http://www.geocities.com/cyrano_jones.geo/
I find this to be very interesting, especially in the fact that you seem to think "miracle" healings happen in only one culture or one religion and are some sort of isolated event.
Well they're not.
As a matter of fact, it is proven that if you THINK YOU ARE GOING TO BE HEALED, YOU WILL BE. Why is this?.. the power of believing is the thing that specifies the "truth" as we know it. So there you have it. You went in, believed you were feeling things, believed you were being healed, and then you were.
This is not necessarily attributed to any sort of power of a higher being, namely your Christian God. As a matter of fact, i can quote many passages in the bible that state that God no longer has dealings with the body of man in that sort of context..... though miracles can sometimes occur it is more likely that your "miracle" can be summed up to the simple healing power of the mind.
As a matter of fact, this his how shamans and pagans have been healing people successfully for years.
so :-P
That's all i have to say about that.
Adios,
your Resident Witch
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"You say don't fear your dreams, it's easier than it seems.
You say you'd never let me fall, from hopes so high.
But never is a promise, and you can't afford to lie." - Fiona Apple
Now, before I get condemn'd to th'fiery depths of Hell, I'd like to let everyone know that up until 5 years ago(I was 16), I was an extremely devout Catholic with a strong faith, due to my upbringing, in Dog, beg your pardon, in God. Science saved me from a lifetime of superstition, taboo, and religion. It pains me to see people like bryce led to believe in such nonsense.
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Try not.
Do.
Or Do not.
There is no try.
[This message has been edited by Gurgeh (edited April 15, 2000).]
Saying "God Does Not Exist" in an argument about religion carries the same weight as this guy's "Testimony". It's not going to enlighten people one bit, and you come off as an agressive, opinionated ass-head (No offense) who is no less stubborn than Jack Van Impish and other religious zealots.
Religion is a personal choice. We all make the decision in what to believe in ourselves, based on what we need, what we desire, and evidence placed before us.
Trying to combat an argument about the existance of Miracles by saying Religion is brainwashing and that miracles are bullshit, well, you are entitled to your opinion, but try to actually argue the points next time.
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"I have never let my schooling interfere with my education."
-Mark Twain
I mean really, people who argue without any basis in data and logic, just chiming in, are fine, except that they'll never get taken seriously. And they make the rest of us honest skeptics look bad.
Now, the fact that you're coming to us in this manner, having come out of Catholicism isn't entirely surprising to me, as most of the people I know who were raised Cath. and then left it remain very angry at the church. Apparently, they weren't always treated in a civilized manner. Never having been a Catholic, I can't really comment in detail on the lifestyle.
I myself, was baptized a Methodist, mostly to please my grandmother, and I went to church, though the more I think on it the more I understand that my upbringing leaned toward the agnostic side, and my "faith" was never really indoctrinated. It was much easier for me to leave, when the time finally came. I don't hold much ill will towards my old church, except about the petty politicking and the harshness of a few stupid old people.
Now if you want to go after the validity of "faith healing," really the first thing to do would be to challenge someone to have it done in a clinical setting, with a full battery of tests before and after each session, to show any results. (Amazingly, *wink* no faith healer I know of has ever done this.)
Or compare it to Voodoo. It's been demonstrated that if someone BELIEVES in Voodoo strongly enough, and then is 'cursed' they'll get sick, perhaps even die. As Jubes said, the human brain is a remarkable machine, and it's capable of a lot more control over the body than it's given credit for. Ask some of those Yoga types who can stuff themselves into body, or attain such mastery of control over pain that they can stick sharp objects in themselves without significant harm.
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"Nobody knows this, but I'm scared all the time... of what I might do, if I ever let go." -- Michael Garibaldi
My grandmother (dad's mom) was a very religious woman, sanctimonious without wanting to seem so -- she was a really nice lady in serious denial. She had been a dyed-in-the-wool Southern Baptist all her life, and believed very fervently that all non-Baptists were going straight to hell on greased rails (and she wasn't too sure about those other, non-Southern Baptists, either ).
When I was in my late teens, Grandma contracted a serious, untreatable abdominal difficulty involving tumors, loads of immobilizing pain, and probable death within a year. I think it was much more serious, but my folks were trying to shield me -- and that was what they thought was okay to tell me.
One of her "lost" (nondenominational) friends invited her to go to church with her. Grandma went with her because she liked her friend (she used to make a point about mentioning that she hoped her friend -- already a Christian -- would get "saved. I presume she meant her friend would see the error of her ways and become a Baptist, preferably Southern ). She was sitting in the back of the church, not paying particular attention to the sermon, when she felt a warm sensation -- almost like sitting in a warm shaft of sunlight. As the warmth seeped into her body, she felt the pain dissolving from her abdomen. By the end of the sermon, the pain was completely gone.
Grandma, skeptic that she was, did not tell anyone until she could get checked out by her doctor. He was amazed -- she had no sign of disease. Mind you, she was still diabetic and had to watch what she ate, but whatever had prompted the doctors to advise her to get her affairs in order right away was gone. More importantly, this formerly holier-than-thou, worry-wartish, judgemental woman we loved just because she was grandma (and not because she was particularly like Mary Poppins) became a warm, caring, accepting person. That transformation was more dramatic than her improvement in health, and if any miracle had occurred, it was the greater one.
Of course, the doctors could have simply misdiagnosed a non-lethal, temporary condition, but the change in her whole outlook on life and the way she dealt with other people was quite a different story.
Grandma attributed her healing to God giving her a second chance. I can provide no evidence to contradict her conclusion, and any attempt to provide a "rational" explaination for what happened would only be rationalization.
--Baloo
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"Just because you know you're right doesn't mean you are."
-- Me
http://www.geocities.com/cyrano_jones.geo/
The other thing is that most people seem to think that religion is a free choice, as long as you choose theirs. Even in a country as big on religious freedom as the US, there are numerous official references to a Mr. "God". "In God we trust", "one nation under God", etc. Just try to tell me this isn't an establishment of religion. "Oh, sure, you can believe in whatever religion you want, as long as you believe in our god."
Maybe if religion really were a matter of personal choice, and if everyone could accept that, we wouldn't have all these problems...
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"Compared to you, every male on this ship is an expert on women!"
-Geordi LaForge to Wesley Crusher, TNG: "Sarek"
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Frank's Home Page
"It's easy to learn to drive a golf cart, but it's hard to express yourself in one." - Larry Wall
(Just a sidenote, but an important one: Don't take this move as a judgement on the quality of the arguments inside. I'm merely moving the thread to a more appropriate venue.)
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"What did it mean to fly? A tremor in your soul. To resist the dull insistance of gravity."
--
Camper Van Beethoven
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Star Trek: Leeds
Creator, Producer, Only Writer
As for the discussion, I know Miracles are real, I see them on that 'Miracles' show on Space every once in a while. Plus, that milk-drinking Elephant, I mean, who can doubt that?
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"I have never let my schooling interfere with my education."
-Mark Twain
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"Just because you know you're right doesn't mean you are."
-- Me
http://www.geocities.com/cyrano_jones.geo/
Learn from that people.
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"Blind faith is the crutch of fools"
Now, what holds the ~76cm of mercury up? Back in the middle ages, "theories" were proposed which stated that the mercury was held up by angels from heaven using invisible strings. Is there anyone here who does not believe this theory which I am perfectly entitled to have? If so, try to disprove it. Maybe Ultra would like to try.
The point I am trying to make is, without trivialising peoples beliefs too much, is that belief in a God is an inherently unscientific practice, and therefore can not be disproved by scientific, logical, or factual means.
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Try not.
Do.
Or Do not.
There is no try.
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"Keep on Trekking"
-D. Kelly
[This message has been edited by Fabrux (edited April 17, 2000).]
Myself, although I don't follow a certain religion, I have chosen my beliefs. Whether or not they pertain to a religion or not doesn't matter. These ideas weren't forced on me. I chose Him.
People get the wrong idea about God. He wants us to choose him, and in the end it is ultimately our choice. That is why I think many religions have it wrong nowadays. Too many of them are all about forcing their views onto each other, when they should be letting people choose instead.
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"No children have ever meddled with the Republican Party and have lived to tell about it." Sideshow Bob
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"A gathering of Angels appeared above my head. They sang to me this song of hope, and this is what they said..." -Styx
Aban's Illustration www.thespeakeasy.com/alanfore
Since that we're all suppose to be God's children, if a relatively nice person needs help, does he(she) has to "pray" for it? What happens if he(she) is not a Christian? Does he(she) still recieve the help from above?
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Okey, okey, here's my question:
If you are an immortal, do you "rot" simply because of the
nuclear decay of the Carbon-14 particles inside your body?
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"Compared to you, every male on this ship is an expert on women!"
-Geordi LaForge to Wesley Crusher, TNG: "Sarek"
Sorry, I just had to get that out of the way.
Oh yes, the religion thing. Good point by TSN. By ignoring, or at least skimming over the finitenes of the church's history, the church has aimed to enhance people's perception of it as a long-standing, infallible institution, and, I suppose, have partially succeeded in this.
Blue Electron, I think that you may find the knowledge you seek in my first post in this thread.
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Try not.
Do.
Or Do not.
There is no try.
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"No children have ever meddled with the Republican Party and have lived to tell about it." Sideshow Bob
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"A gathering of Angels appeared above my head. They sang to me this song of hope, and this is what they said..." -Styx
Aban's Illustration www.thespeakeasy.com/alanfore
Oh, yeah, the Book of Judges. That's the one where the Jews practice human sacrifice. (Well, Jepthah, Judge of Israel, does, but it's mainly because he made a rash promise to God that if God helped him win this battle he was going to fight, he'd sacrifice the first thing he saw when he got home as a burnt offering. Well, to make a long story short, he won, and the first thing he saw when he got home was his own dear daughter.)
"Thanks, Dad!"
Of course, taking what is written in Judges etc. as factual history, is again dubious. It wasn't written then, after all, but much later. And is in the same tone that the Fundie Loons use to blame hurricanes and earthquakes on the US's 'turning away from God, booga-booga.'
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"Nobody knows this, but I'm scared all the time... of what I might do, if I ever let go." -- Michael Garibaldi
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Frank's Home Page
"Frank, sometimes you are frightening on a scale that boggles the human imagination." - Krenim
And I believe that any attempt to use the book of Judges to say that God now causes earthquakes and what not is pure craziness. God had a covanent relationship with the nation of Isreal which they were blatently violating. No such relationship has ever existed with any other physical nation nor does any such relationship currently exist.
00000 Addendum after rereading the Account 00000
My bad. Jephtha does in fact use the term burnt offering. My reason for saying that he didn't intend to actually burn someone alive are these:
1. Child sacrifice was explicitly and specifically condemned by Jewish law in Deuteronomy. Such a vow would never have been acceptable.
2. Jephtha's daughter apparently lived for many years after this account because people would visit her every year to give encouragement. This even thought his daughter went along with the vow and the vow was fulfilled.
The temple service conclusion is not arbitrary. There are other examples (Samuel I think) where parents had the right to devote their children to God's exclusive service in the Temple. This would also account for the fact that she never got married or had sex. This may be viewed by some as another example of "convenient metaphor" but I guess it all comes down to whether you view the Bible as consistant or inconsistant.
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"A gathering of Angels appeared above my head. They sang to me this song of hope, and this is what they said..." -Styx
Aban's Illustration www.thespeakeasy.com/alanfore
[This message has been edited by Aban Rune (edited April 18, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by Aban Rune (edited April 19, 2000).]
The Catholic Church, in some instances, is also liberal on social issues and Bible interpretations compared to the rest of the Christian denominations (although that is not to say that there aren't conservative Catholics), and that, I know for a fact, annoys the heaven out of Protestants. The Catholic Church believes that Creation is "just a story" (words of my religion teacher), and they believe in a non-literal interpretation of the Bible. Gurgeh's theory on Catholics and abortion are rather maliciously incriminating, since all Christians should be against abortion if they believe in the Ten Commandments ("Thou shall not kill"?). In the opinion toward homosexuals, the official message is this: they are not approved of and cannot get married within a Catholic setting because they cannot procreate. On the other hand, some churches have support groups for homosexuals, and that is far more tolerant than you can say for Protestants (another factor that annoys them).
Today's Clarification on Catholicism is brought to you by an agnostic from Ramona Convent Secondary School, a very liberal Catholic all-girls school.
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"One more day before the storm
At the barricades of freedom!
When our ranks begin to form
Will you take your place with me?"
--Enjolras, "One Day More," Les Miserables
[This message has been edited by Tora Ziyal (edited April 18, 2000).]
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"Keep on Trekking"
-D. Kelly
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"Blind faith is the crutch of fools"
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"Compared to you, every male on this ship is an expert on women!"
-Geordi LaForge to Wesley Crusher, TNG: "Sarek"
[This message has been edited by TSN (edited April 21, 2000).]
And I'll be the first to admit that there are things I am ignorant of. But when I have questions, I ask. When I don't understand something, I do research. I simply can't understand why discussions like this must always include insults as well as an exchange of ideas. I have yet to call someone else's beliefs stupid. I totally understand how difficult it is believe in ANYTHING these days.
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"A gathering of Angels appeared above my head. They sang to me this song of hope, and this is what they said..." -Styx
Aban's Illustration www.thespeakeasy.com/alanfore
A couple of points:
1. Jepthah DID promise a burnt offering, as you admit to above.
2. It also states that when his daughter returned from bewailing her virginity, Jepthah kept his promise.
3. It does NOT say that people went and visited HER later, rather that they went out and bewailed her fate. You ASSUMED she was in the temple, based on your previous erroneous interpretation of Jepthah's promise.
So, either he actually did cook her, or the Bible is inaccurate.
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"Nobody knows this, but I'm scared all the time... of what I might do, if I ever let go." -- Michael Garibaldi
1. As I stated above, Jewish law expressly forbade "making children pass through the fire" or offering human sacrifice.
2. The Judges, including Jephthah were selected by God to deliver or serve as Judge for the Jews. This would necessitate that person being "righteous" or following God's law.
3. The account also says that God's spirit came over Jeptha when he made the vow. This would preclude the vow being unjust.
4. The only other example I can think of where human sacrifice was involved in a test of faith was when Abraham was told to sacrifice Isaac. When it came down to it, God didn't let that happen. He didn't require the actual murder of a child to prove faithfulness. And this was before the Law.
5. Burnt offerings symbolized whole devotion to God and accompanied many ceremonies likely including the presentation of a child for temple service. Jephthah may have been using the term "burnt offering" to denote the wholeness of the dedication he would make of whoever met him.
6. My translation says that the "daughters of Isreal would go to give commendation to the daughter of Jephtah." This to me suggests that she was still alive at this point.
7. In addition to the term "burnt offering", Jeptha also says that this person who meets him "must also become Jehovah's". Become Jehovah's could easily mean being dedicated to his service.
Again, I admit there is no direct evidence in the passage to back this up. I still believe though that the fact that the daughter did not bewail her impending death, but rather her virginity suggests she was not going to be roasted. I'm also taking the Bible as a whole and using some reasoning. And it comes down to a belief in the consistancy of the Bible based on a study of the rest of it.
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"A gathering of Angels appeared above my head. They sang to me this song of hope, and this is what they said..." -Styx
Aban's Illustration www.thespeakeasy.com/alanfore
[This message has been edited by Aban Rune (edited April 20, 2000).]
The exact translations vary, of course, from Bible to Bible (no wonder there are so many fights about what it says, nobody can TELL!), so it is really impossible to know for sure what happened here, although in both of the annotated Bibles I looked at, the annotators seem to hold my opinion that Jepthah did in fact kill his daughter (who was not really a child, but probably an adult), although one took the annual lamentations to mean that this had been a BAD thing to have done -- rather as a lesson on making rash promises to God.
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"Nobody knows this, but I'm scared all the time... of what I might do, if I ever let go." -- Michael Garibaldi
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"No children have ever meddled with the Republican Party and have lived to tell about it." Sideshow Bob
Of course, there are many similarities among the 'dying and reborn gods' mythological customs, too... Like Osiris, Dionysus, Orpheus, The Green Man, Apollonius of Tyria, etc.
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"Nobody knows this, but I'm scared all the time... of what I might do, if I ever let go." -- Michael Garibaldi
BTW, since the whole thing w/ Jephtah almost certainly never happened, maybe they couldn't decide whether or not to have him kill the girl, or just ruin her life, so the authors left it ambiguous... :-)
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"Compared to you, every male on this ship is an expert on women!"
-Geordi LaForge to Wesley Crusher, TNG: "Sarek"
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"Oh, it's an anti-anti-WTO song. It's essentially a pro-Starbucks song. I saw this picture of a guy sticking his foot through a plate-glass window in a Starbucks in Seattle, and he was wearing a Nike. Man, couldn't you just change your shoes?"
--
M. Doughty
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"Try not.
Do.
Or Do not.
There is no try."
-Yoda, Jedi Master.
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"Nobody knows this, but I'm scared all the time... of what I might do, if I ever let go." -- Michael Garibaldi
Sol: Erm... I don't know. I'm not really all that familiar w/ the internal workings of Buddhism. The point I was going for is how a group can see something in one group while totally ignoring the sae quality in themselves. Christians can see that ol' Siddhartha Gautama was a normal guy who was elevated to the level of a god by his followers, but most of them would never even consider the possibility that the same thing could have happened to Mr. Jesus from Nazareth, Judea.
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"Compared to you, every male on this ship is an expert on women!"
-Geordi LaForge to Wesley Crusher, TNG: "Sarek"
Though both do involve improbable metaphysical leaps.
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"Oh, it's an anti-anti-WTO song. It's essentially a pro-Starbucks song. I saw this picture of a guy sticking his foot through a plate-glass window in a Starbucks in Seattle, and he was wearing a Nike. Man, couldn't you just change your shoes?"
--
M. Doughty
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Harold: "You're missing the point!"
Red: "Well, I don't like points."
-The Red Green Show
This may help bring you up to speed, it shows the regions ruled by Persian (Zorastrian) Emperors and Kings. If you want more, take a trip to a major library.
http://solareclipse.net/fmmp/persia.jpg
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"Blind faith is the crutch of fools"
[This message has been edited by Daryus Aden (edited April 24, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by Daryus Aden (edited April 24, 2000).]
My problem isn't with Zorastrians in particular, I just don't see the point in sifting through old history books whose contents are thousands of years old and have probably been expanded far beyond what actually may have occurred. Just as TSN said, theology is inherently illogical, this is my gripe with this thread.
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"Try not.
Do.
Or Do not.
There is no try."
-Yoda, Jedi Master.
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"Nobody knows this, but I'm scared all the time... of what I might do, if I ever let go." -- Michael Garibaldi
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"Blind faith is the crutch of fools"
THREE SIXES?!?!?!?!
It's a SIGN!!!
I KNEW it! I KNEW this thread was the work of the Dev-ile!
*Dumps a gallon of blessed gatorade on his terminal*
.
.
See how easy it is to misinterpret coincidence?
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"Nobody knows this, but I'm scared all the time... of what I might do, if I ever let go." -- Michael Garibaldi
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"Blind faith is the crutch of fools"