Now, a bunch of black people who bought insurance from the other comapny are suing AG and six other companies for two reasons. 1: They were charged more than white people for equivalent insurance. Keep in mind that they signed a contract to this effect before it became illegal. 2: They have payed more into the insurance than they can get out of it.
Under any other circumstances, I'd just laugh at the ignorance of any asinine people who thought that they could get a easy few mil of a big corporation on such utterly ludicrous grounds as these, but only one of the companies is fighting (not AG)! Has the justice system actually become so inept that they just think that they could not win?
------------------
"This year will go down in history. For the first time, a civilized nation has full gun registration. Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future!"
-- Adolph Hitler, 1933
(Nice Sig, BTW. Sure the streets were safer. They killed all the damn Jews with the guns.)
------------------
"Ultra Magnus is Undeniably Fun!" David Stevens, New York Magazine.
"Total Complete excitement from start to finish!" -WPIX-TV, New York
"This isn't a thrill ride, it's a rocket..." -Richard Caves, Time Magazine.
If your race has lower life expectancy, then, unfortunately, you have to pay for a higher price, simply because there is a greater chance of you dying before reaching a certain expected age.
This probably have nothing to do with racism, it's just the statistics of making cold hard cash, I don't like it any more then you do, but as long as you're buying private insurance, the companies set priority, and in this case, money rules.
And that's why I'm in Canada, where government healthcare provide almost everything I need at an affordable cost...
CANADA RULES!
------------------
If a diamond is a woman's best friend, why does a man has to settle for a dog?
------------------
"Twentieth century go and sleep.
Really deep. We won't blink
Your eyes are burning holes through me.
I'm not scared I'm outta here.
I'm not scared. I'm outta here.
--
R.E.M.
****
Read chapter one of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! Please?
Sol:
I'd say that if an insurance company refused to sell you insurance without seeing your genetic code first, that's their call. But I'd also say that they probably would go out of business, so it would be a stupid idea. They can't force anyone to hand over such private information, and I don't think many people would.
------------------
"This year will go down in history. For the first time, a civilized nation has full gun registration. Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future!"
-- Adolph Hitler, 1933
I'm not saying its right. But it's how they stay in business. It's an easily identifiable characteristic (unless you're michael jackson), and the statistics are sound. If they could identify gays as easily, they might charge them higher rates for the perceived risk of death from AIDS. But the color of you skin is not a private matter, it's there for everybody to see. It's not fair, but what is?
------------------
"Nobody knows this, but I'm scared all the time... of what I might do, if I ever let go." -- Michael Garibaldi
------------------
It doesn't matter if you don't know what you're doing as long as you look good doing it.
------------------
"Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed; as they are in almost every kingdom in Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed." - Noah Webster, Author, An American Dictionary of the English Language
------------------
"Twentieth century go and sleep.
Really deep. We won't blink
Your eyes are burning holes through me.
I'm not scared I'm outta here.
I'm not scared. I'm outta here.
--
R.E.M.
****
Read chapter one of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! Please?
Isn't Noah Webster that bloke who was also arrested for smuggling a shipload of cocaine into the US?
Come on, seriously, you believe that your own people plan to enslave you, and that you'll have to go out shooting them all to protect your freedom. So if this is the case, tell me why the great land of the free is so great, or free?
*knock knock*
Oh shite, here come the gestapo, and look, DAMN I don't have a gun to defend myself! Yep there I go, into a gulag in this non-armed western nation for speaking my mind. I bet the same just happened to Liam.
See you in the gulag.
------------------
"Remeber, if there is a nuclear explosion, be sure to close your windows as the massive heat could cause objects within your home to catch fire".
Wise, wise words.
But, since you asked nicely...
"In 1929, the Soviet Union established gun control. From 1929 to 1953, about 20 million dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
"In 1911, Turkey established gun control. From 1915 to 1917, 1.5 million Armenians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
"Germany established gun control in 1938 and from 1939 to 1945, 13 million Jews and others who were unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
"China established gun control in 1935. From 1948 to 1952, 20 million political dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
"Guatemala established gun control in 1964. From 1964 to 1981, 100,000 Mayan Indians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
"Uganda established gun control in 1970. From 1971 to 1979, 300,000 Christians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
"Cambodia established gun control in 1956. From 1975 to 1977, one million 'educated' people, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated."
Defenseless people rounded up and exterminated in the 20th Century because of gun control: 56 million. The next time someone talks in favor of gun control, ask them "Who do YOU want to round up and exterminate?"
------------------
"Nobody knows this, but I'm scared all the time... of what I might do, if I ever let go." -- Michael Garibaldi
[This message has been edited by First of Two (edited June 17, 2000).]
Heh...that's actually pretty funny. Bladed wepaons moratoriums in, say, AD 165. Marcus Aurelius proclaiming that the populace can have pilum but not gladii....carts with signs that read (in Latin, of course), "Spiculums don't kill barbarians, barbarians kill barbarians!"
------------------
"Do you know how much YOU'RE worth??.....2.5 million Woolongs. THAT'S your bounty. I SAID you were small fry..." --Spike Spiegel
I'm still looking for a (that triangular punching knife whose name escapes me at the moment but which I think is Indian in origin) and one of those Russian Spetznaz spring-propelled shooting knives.
------------------
"Nobody knows this, but I'm scared all the time... of what I might do, if I ever let go." -- Michael Garibaldi
And you forgot Cuba...
Daryus:
"you believe that your own people plan to enslave you[?]"
I'd be a fool not to, and so would you. There are always people who want power over the lives of others. Just look at most liberals. To VOLUNTARILY give up your only means of defence against these people is quite stupid. To believe that these people don't exist at all is completely moronic.
------------------
"Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed; as they are in almost every kingdom in Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed." - Noah Webster, Author, An American Dictionary of the English Language
And in at least four of those examples First, the governments already planned doing the slaughter thing when it introduced gun-control. That's hardly a fair argument. They were introducing gun-control as a basis for legalising murder. We don't have gun control here because Tony wants to go and murder a load of protestants to use as raw food for his new baby. And France doesn't have gun control so that their President can round up all the ginger haired people and shoot them.
Tony and Cherie Blair recently had a baby y'know. There were pictures in the paper. He took time off to look after his kid. Everyone went "awww", and Tony probably got another load of votes. Our country is a relatively quiet one, where our leader doesn't declare war on other countries to hide the fact that he's getting blow-jobs at work from his secretary, and where pizza-delivery men can delivery a large Deap Pan Meat Feast perfectly well without having to "pack heat", and where pretty much the entire nation is happy with gun-control laws. Hell, we don't even have a constitution. Now, name me ONE unjust law we have. ONE. Come on, I'm sure you can do it.
------------------
"A fully functioning, cybernetic, technologically advanced team of superheroes... and NOBODY'S got a flashlight?"
- Polly Ester; Samurai Pizza Cats
------------------
"A fully functioning, cybernetic, technologically advanced team of superheroes... and NOBODY'S got a flashlight?"
- Polly Ester; Samurai Pizza Cats
To believe that there are not people out there that would take every right away from you if given the chance is ludicrous and imbecilic. Whether the Clintons are such people is irrelevant to this particular discussion. Such people have obtained power dozens of times in history. Only the foolish would believe that they are incapable of doing so again, and only the irresponsible would choose not to defend themselves against such an eventuality.
------------------
"To disarm the people [is] the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
- George Mason, American Statesman and Author of the Virginia Declaration of Rights (1776)
So, Omega....I'm guessing that you're not one for a strong United Nations?
And Liam? "Pretty peaceful nation?" What about the semi-daily bombings y'all had up to about, what? 5 months ago? 6?
Isn't it about time for Vermont to have another referendum on seceding from the union?
Will The Penguin actually trounce the Dynamic Duo?
Am I babbling?
------------------
"Do you know how much YOU'RE worth??.....2.5 million Woolongs. THAT'S your bounty. I SAID you were small fry..." --Spike Spiegel
All these gun control quotes are bothering me for some reason. I'll need to do some research, but...take Cambodia. Hardly a rich nation. Guns are expensive, complicated machines. How many were actually in the country to start with? Furthermore, how much help is having a gun when society is crumbling around your ears? By 1938, the fate of Jews in Germany was, at least to people in the country, quite clear. And yet we see no armed revolution before this.
I'm going to ask a serious question here. Has there ever been an instance where an armed minority has been able to stop a government? The only possibility that springs to mind is Vietnam, and to say that the U.S. lost to a group of untrained militia there is to completely misunderstand what really happened.
------------------
"Twentieth century go and sleep.
Really deep. We won't blink
Your eyes are burning holes through me.
I'm not scared I'm outta here.
I'm not scared. I'm outta here.
--
R.E.M.
****
Read chapter one of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! Please?
------------------
"To disarm the people [is] the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
- George Mason, American Statesman and Author of the Virginia Declaration of Rights (1776)
For that matter, any popular revolution in any country that did not have the support of the government or military would be a case in point.
------------------
"Nobody knows this, but I'm scared all the time... of what I might do, if I ever let go." -- Michael Garibaldi
Crazy idea here, but perhaps a better way to ensure a continued government you approve of is to, oh, I don't know, take an active role in the political process? Vote for candidates you like? Bizarre concept, I realize.
------------------
"Twentieth century go and sleep.
Really deep. We won't blink
Your eyes are burning holes through me.
I'm not scared I'm outta here.
I'm not scared. I'm outta here.
--
R.E.M.
****
Read chapter one of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! Please?
Wouldn't you actually try terrorism instead? Except it might be a bit harder, you being half-way accross the globe.
Oh, and Shik? "Semi-daily bombings"? Just how inaccurate IS the news service in the US? Besides, they (largely) ended WAY longer than 5-6 months ago. And there is a fairly okay-ish chance of the peace-process actually doing some good.
And to go back to Omega's argument: Are you suggesting that if England's citizens were armed like the US's are, then we would have had less of a problem with the IRA?
------------------
"A fully functioning, cybernetic, technologically advanced team of superheroes... and NOBODY'S got a flashlight?"
- Polly Ester; Samurai Pizza Cats
------------------
Oh, goody, the Sea Monkeys I ordered have arrived. Heh heh heh, look at them cavort and caper.
~C. Montgomery Burns
And be sure to visit The Field Marshal project http://fieldmarshal.virtualave.net/
"Are you suggesting that if England's citizens were armed like the US's are, then we would have had less of a problem with the IRA?"
Of course not. There's not much anyone can do about terrorist bombings. Why would you think that I suggested something like that? What I am suggesting (or rather, have already proven) is that not removing the people's right to own a gun lowers crime in general.
Sol:
"Crazy idea here, but perhaps a better way to ensure a continued government you approve of is to, oh, I don't know, take an active role in the political process?"
And if someone declares martial law and tries to forcefully remove all your God-given rights like in, say, Cuba?
------------------
"To disarm the people [is] the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
- George Mason, American Statesman and Author of the Virginia Declaration of Rights (1776)
Time for a rant.
This sort of thinking, Omega, represents exactly what drives me away from the right wing. Namely, their consistant and overwhelming attempts to convince the American people of their own stupidity, namely by trying to sneak in their legislation under our radar. This is a problem the left simply doesn't have. (They're up front with their silly and/or downright stupid legislation.) Take the recent initiative here in Washington. According to the ads, the interviews, and the posters, it would lead to 30 dollar license tabs. Only 30 dollars! Everyone vote for this amazing money saver!
Of course, what was seldom mentioned was the rest of the initiative, which would remove the power of the state legislature to tax the citizenry without a direct vote. Now, regardless of whether you think this is a good idea or not, it's a clearly unconstitutional piece of legislation. Beyond that, it's a slap in the face of every voter in the state. The clear implication is that we're too stupid to vote for public officials, and so they need to bypass the entire system of representational government. There's your clear and blatent attempt by a tiny minority to trick the populace. The really evil part is that I liked paying thirty dollars instead of several hundred myself. Who wouldn't? But the larger issue, namely of completely gutting the state legislature, went unannounced.
And I have a solution! Not much of one. Probably pretty wacky. Still.
Vote. Vote for candidates who you like. Never, ever, ever vote for the lesser of two evils. Why vote for evil at all? If you're unsatisfied with Bush and Gore, then for Liam's sake, don't vote for either one! Find a candidate you can truly support. The only wasted vote is the one that for a candidate you can't support.
Of course, I can think of all sorts of reasons why this wouldn't work. Realpolitik works rather well, after all. Oh well.
------------------
It's not my birthday
It's not today
It's not my birthday so why do you lunge out at me?
--
They Might Be Giants
****
Read chapter one of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! I'll give you a cookie.
"Someone CAN'T declare martial law in a nation where the people refuse to allow it."
Of course they can. Just give them control of the military, and they can declare martial law. Whether they have any legitimate authority to do so or not makes no difference. 'Course, I think that if Clinton tried it, someone'd shoot him. Unless, of course, they weren't allowed to have guns...
"This sort of thinking, Omega, represents exactly what drives me away from the right wing. Namely, their consistant and overwhelming attempts to convince the American people of their own stupidity."
Oh, that's rich. You think CONSERVATIVES think the people are stupid, so you become a LIBERAL. Anyone else here think that's hilarious?
Do you not realize that the whole basis for liberalism is that people are supposedly to dumb to take care of themselves and their families, and thus need a government to do it for them?
"The clear implication is that we're too stupid to vote for public officials, and so they need to bypass the entire system of representational government."
Funny. I see the implication as that the legislators should not be trusted with such power, and the people themselves should. Odd, that anyone'd think that wanting to give people more direct power over their own lives implies that you think they're stupid.
------------------
"To disarm the people [is] the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
- George Mason, American Statesman and Author of the Virginia Declaration of Rights (1776)
The more helpless you are, the safer you are from criminals.
Criminals don't really want to kill people, and living witnesses don't bother them.
An intruder will be incapacitated by tear gas or oven spray, but if shot with a .44 Magnum will get angry and kill you.
That firearms in the hands of private citizens are the gravest threat to peace, and China, Pakistan, and Korea can be trusted with nuclear weapons.
That Charlton Heston as pres. of the NRA is a shill who should be ignored, but Michael Douglas as a representative of Handgun Control, Inc, is an ambassador entitled to an audience at a UN arms control summit.
That ordinary people, in the presence of guns, turn into slaughtering butchers, and revert to normal when the weapon is removed.
That the "right of the people peaceably to assemble," the "right of the people to be secure in their homes," "enumeration of certain rights shall not be construed to disparage others retained by the people" refer to individuals, but "the right of the people to keep and bear arms" refers to the states.
That the 2nd Amendment, ratified in 1787, allows the states to have a National Guard, created by act of Congress in 1917.
That the National Guard, paid by the federal government, occupying property leased to the federal government, using weapons owned by the federal government, punishing tresspassers under federal law, is a state agency.
That private citizens can't have handguns, because they serve no militia purpose, even though the military has hundreds of thousands of them, and private citizens can't have 'assault rifles,' because they are military weapons.
That minimum sentences violate civil rights, unless its for possessing a gun. That door-to-door searches for drugs are a gross violation of civil rights and a sign of fascism, but door-to-door searches for guns are a reasonable solution to the 'gun problem.'
That the Illinois law that allows and government official from Governor to dogcatcher to carry a gun is reasonable, and the law that prohibits any private citizen, even one with 50 death threats on file and a million dollar jewelry business, is reasonable. And it isn't a sign of statism.
That gun safety courses in school only encourage kids to committ violence, but sex education courses don't encourage kids to have sex.
That we must get rid of guns because a deranged lunatic may go on a shooting spree at any moment, but that anyone who owns a gun out of fear of such a lunatic is paranoid.
That statistics showing high murder rates justify gun control, and statistics that show increasing murder rates AFTER gun control are 'just statistics.'
That we don't need guns against an oppressive government because the Constitution has internal safeguards, and we should ban and sieze all guns, thereby violating the 2nd, 4th, and 5th Amendments of that Constitution, thereby becoming an oppressive government.
That guns are an inefective means of self defense for rational adults, but in the hands of an ignorant criminal become a threat to the fabric of society.
That banning guns works, which is why New York, DC, and Chicago cops need guns.
That Massachusetts is safer with band on guns, which is why Teddy Kennedy has machine-gun toting guards.
------------------
"Nobody knows this, but I'm scared all the time... of what I might do, if I ever let go." -- Michael Garibaldi
------------------
"Ultra Magnus is Undeniably Fun!" David Stevens, New York Magazine.
"Total Complete excitement from start to finish!" -WPIX-TV, New York
"This isn't a thrill ride, it's a rocket..." -Richard Caves, Time Magazine.
You think your more protected with them therefore as you gather you arsenal about you, you are. They give you a sence of power and security. Feelings of which are illusory.
Although I am reather opposed to the basement fortified gun emplacement with sandbags and .50 cal machine gun just waiting for the military to swoop down on you, I personally don't care if you have your .38 on the bedstand just iching for that robber to come in so you can teach him a lesson and splatter his brains all over the closet door. More power to ya! You are just as likely to be shot and killed as the robber is if he has a gun and is willing to use it.
Ya spins the wheel ya takes your chances. But at least you saved that lamp you found at the dump from falling in the wrong hands.
All I ask, gun wise, is that people who use the take great pains to keep them from misuse. I.e. if you are dead set on having guns around your family, teach them the proper use of it. If you are not around then take all precautions to keep that weapon from being used by a child while playing cops and robbers and killing Frank the neighbor boy by mistake.
~~~
quote:
Of course they can. Just give them control of the military
Knock Knock....
Who's there....
A Clue.
The military is made up of the very people that they are going to try and overthrow. That has been the whole basis for the foundation of the military in this country. Made up of the citizen soldier...the volunteer army. You know, Duty, Honor, Country?
I can see it now:
Clinton: General Smith, I want you to move you division into Denver and secure the area.
General Smith: Um sir, is there a reason for this order?
Clinton: Yes, I am declaring martial law.
General Smith: Why is that sir, there have been no outbrakes of violence or civil unrest?
Clinton: I know, I am just power hungry and want to impose my liberal views on the rest of the country via the military.
General Smith: You're a loony.
------------------
Oh, goody, the Sea Monkeys I ordered have arrived. Heh heh heh, look at them cavort and caper.
~C. Montgomery Burns
And be sure to visit The Field Marshal project http://fieldmarshal.virtualave.net/
Jay:
"[Guns] give you a sence of power and security. Feelings of which are illusory."
So you're saying that guns do not, in fact, make you safer? Oh, do explain that one.
"You are just as likely to be shot and killed as the robber is if he has a gun and is willing to use it."
I dispute this "statistic" greatly. And even if it were correct, that gives you around 50% chance of being the one to assume room temperature, whereas if you DIDN'T have the gun and the robber did, it'd be a LOT higher.
"But at least you saved that lamp you found at the dump from falling in the wrong hands."
Oh, yeah. I forgot. I don't deserve anything I have, so robbers have every right to take my posessions. And if they decide to injure me on the way out?
As for your little hypothetical military conversation, are you really willing to risk your freedom on the assumption that a person such as your General Smith would exist? The kidnapping of Elian Gonzales shows that Clinton can get away with violating people's rights without being questioned by anyone.
------------------
"To disarm the people [is] the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
- George Mason, American Statesman and Author of the Virginia Declaration of Rights (1776)
I'm certainly not willing to be shot over my CD collection as much as I love jazz. Are you possessed so much by what you own that you are willing to die for it? Is your butterfly collection such that you would take a bullet for it?
To quote from one of my favorite movies, "deserves got nuthin to do with it."
I think we have more to fear with the "us vs. them" attitude that seems to prevail in the far right today. The ideological emphasis of which seems to head toward individual armed camps all across the country. Certainly a regressive thought when one thinks about the extension of culture, civilization, and inclusion that we've worked for more than 200 years to achieve.
------------------
Oh, goody, the Sea Monkeys I ordered have arrived. Heh heh heh, look at them cavort and caper.
~C. Montgomery Burns
And be sure to visit The Field Marshal project http://fieldmarshal.virtualave.net/
------------------
It's not my birthday
It's not today
It's not my birthday so why do you lunge out at me?
--
They Might Be Giants
****
Read chapter one of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! I'll give you a cookie.
------------------
"Remeber, if there is a nuclear explosion, be sure to close your windows as the massive heat could cause objects within your home to catch fire".
Wise, wise words.
Th real reason your chances of being shot with your own firearm supposedly "go up compared to that of shooting a criminal" is that the likelihood of a criminal entering your home (especially if the fact you own weapons is obvious and/well-known) drops between 80 and 95% when you're armed.
So before weapon:
Likelihood of getting shot: ***
vs.
Likelihood of criminal entry :***************
but after:
Likelihood of getting shot: **
vs.
Likelihood of criminal entry :**
Your REAL odds stay roughly the same,(actually, they would dip in your favor, since the likelihood of a crook shooting you ALSO goes down when the playing field is even), but because of the false return given by the lesser likelihood of entry, it APPEARS as though they go up.
------------------
"Nobody knows this, but I'm scared all the time... of what I might do, if I ever let go." -- Michael Garibaldi
You're presuming that because one has a gun, one's abode has less of a chance to be burgled. But....wouldn't they need to KNOW you have a gun BEFORE they burgle? I'd think that most breakers & enterers wouldn't find out until they encounted you & your Dobie-O-Matic sittin' in the drawing room in wait.
------------------
"Do you know how much YOU'RE worth??.....2.5 million Woolongs. THAT'S your bounty. I SAID you were small fry..." --Spike Spiegel
You missed something, but it's an understandable mistake. The point is that if you _weren't_ allowed to have guns, the thieves would KNOW that you didn't have one, and thus EVERYONE's chances of being burglarized would be far higher.
Jay:
"I think we have more to fear with the "us vs. them" attitude that seems to prevail in the far right today."
The reason we HAVE that attitude is that we know that YOUR beliefs are far more dangerous. Which is more dangerous: decrying an enemy as such and fighting them tooth and nail, or simply allowing that enemy to do as they please?
"Is your butterfly collection such that you would take a bullet for it?"
Oh, so if someone's burglarizing my house, I should just let them, instead of trying to stop them? Of course, you neglect the fact that the intruder could also have it in mind to harm you, but I guess I should just let them do that, too, because it's so dangerous to try and stop them.
------------------
"To disarm the people [is] the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
- George Mason, American Statesman and Author of the Virginia Declaration of Rights (1776)
[This message has been edited by Omega (edited June 20, 2000).]
------------------
"Remeber, if there is a nuclear explosion, be sure to close your windows as the massive heat could cause objects within your home to catch fire".
Wise, wise words.
------------------
"A fully functioning, cybernetic, technologically advanced team of superheroes... and NOBODY'S got a flashlight?"
- Polly Ester; Samurai Pizza Cats
------------------
"Remeber, if there is a nuclear explosion, be sure to close your windows as the massive heat could cause objects within your home to catch fire".
Wise, wise words.
------------------
"A fully functioning, cybernetic, technologically advanced team of superheroes... and NOBODY'S got a flashlight?"
- Polly Ester; Samurai Pizza Cats
------------------
"Remeber, if there is a nuclear explosion, be sure to close your windows as the massive heat could cause objects within your home to catch fire".
Wise, wise words.
"how much chance do you think a bunch of gung-ho civilians would have against the US armed forces?"
That would depend on how many people constitute a bunch. It really seems like you're suggesting that we wouldn't have a chance, so we may as well not try. Ain't optimism wonderful, guys?
"So what if they can't run up a flight of stairs without having to sit down?"
Who edits your news, anyway? We're not THAT out of shape.
------------------
"To disarm the people [is] the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
- George Mason, American Statesman and Author of the Virginia Declaration of Rights (1776)
As for the formerly mentioned hypothetical conversation, you forget that the President's next response can always be: "All right, you're relieved. I'll find someone who WILL."
Remember Sherman?
------------------
"Nobody knows this, but I'm scared all the time... of what I might do, if I ever let go." -- Michael Garibaldi
As opposed, say, to the gated, high-security, armed-guard-patrolled hollywood liberal elite suburbs?
>"I'd think that most breakers & enterers wouldn't find out until they encounted you & your Dobie-O-Matic sittin' in the drawing room in wait."
There are many ways around this. My personal favorite is to display a used target silouette. an NRA sticker under your security alarm label is effective, nd given that the majority of home crimes are committed by people known to the victim, just letting it be known that you squeeze off a few rounds now and then can help. When I was in high school, everybody knew my father was a gun collector. Kids asked me all the time if it was true he sometimes wandered the property at night armed to the teeth (it wasn't). But during a rash of burglaries in the country (where your neighbors aren't close enough to know you're being robbed), houses surrounding us were robbed, but ours remained untouched.
>"So what if they can't run up a flight of stairs without having to sit down?"
That's biased, prejudicial, and downright rude. And it ain't true, neither. Myself, I took high-end training when I was younger, in a Scout troop run by a couple of ex-Marines, one of whom fought in 'Nam. I learned just about everything one would need to know if, say, one survived a air crash in an isolated part of the world. I've lived in the woods for weeks at a time, hiked 50 miles in a day, climbed a mountain, built snares, caught, killed, cooked, and eaten wild animals. I'm fairly good at tracking and stalking human beings in a wilderness situation (think advanced 'capture the flag'.) I may not be able to do a hundred pushups, but.. so? In a defnesive position, that's not generally a going concern.
------------------
"Nobody knows this, but I'm scared all the time... of what I might do, if I ever let go." -- Michael Garibaldi
[This message has been edited by First of Two (edited June 20, 2000).]
That being said, I can safely say that whether or not a person has owned a firearm has never once stopped me from performing a punitive expedition into another person's house. I know I can react quicker, better, & have a lot more warning than any occupant with a firearm...especially since I have night vision so damn good, it's almost infravision.
I don't own a firearm. I never WILL own a firearm. I think they're clumsy, I think they're too easy to use, & I think they lack class. This does not mean that I feel they should be banned; if you want one, great, have at it. YES, there should be restrictions: no sales to repeat offenders, no sales to persons with questionable mental capacity (as diagnosed by a physician)...& I feel that there should be no sales to ANYone until they can show proof of completion of a "firearm philosophy" course.
"But Shik, how is that different than gun safety/waiting periods/etc?" Simple. Firearm safety is one thing; it's easy to learn in about 15 minutes: don't shoot yourself. Keep ammunition & firearm in separate locked locations. Clean the weapon to prevent accidents. That kind of stuff. What's needed is a "firearm philosophy," where you're taught how NOT to use the weapon. I'm a student of Japanese swordsmanship; when I learned, I was required by the sensei to study various mental, physical, & even "spiritual" (for lack of a better term) philosophies for many months before I was even ALLOWED near even a kendo stick.
I don't see anything like that for firearms. It's "I've got a gun, lemme blast your frikkin' head off." This is not to say there are no responsible firearm owners out there; I grew up with many (which is where I learned to shoot) & many are good friends of mine. They, too, agree that there is no one teaching potential buyers & owners how to refrain from abusing the overwhelming sense of power one receives when owning a firearm. People draw guns over petty things these days--slow drivers, a lemon in their Coke, no sauce with my McNuggets; in the 8 years I've owned my katana, I've drawn it in anger ONCE, & that was only because my housemate's asshole boyfriend decided to make a mistake & attack me in a drunken rage. I've been TEMPTED to use it...in a perfect universe, I'd be ABLE to use it with no consequences...but I don't. why? Because of the training that was instilled in me.
BOTH sides are right. PEOPLE kill people AND guns kill people. The proliferation of firearms only makes it EASIER to kill a person; anyone who really WANTS to kill someone will still manage to do so. Look at the fact that 98% of all premeditated murders are committed either by hand, by poison, or by a bladed weapon. Firearm deaths are more "spur of the moment" or rage-induced. The exception to that is the drive-by, where they're too fucking lazy to even get out of the goddamned CAR.
Fifty years ago, this shit didn't happen. I blame 2 groups: the "do what makes you happy & deal with yourself first" idiots who espoused that shit to my generation's parents, thus screwing us mentally (& in other ways) for our entire lives & the Bible-thumping ultra-"moral" "God is going to send you to hell" jackasses that really think that because I play AD&D & watch anime, I'm a Satanist. There are the extremist,s yes...but the extremists are heard far too much these days.
I want a return to COMMON SENSE. I want someone to go over the federal budget & say, "What is this shit? $12.6 billion in cost overruns on the A-12??" I'm a defense geek--I love the military, but come ON! When you go over budget, Lockheed, pay for the rest out of your own damned POCKET. Maybe that'll help you get thing done on time.
I want someone to stand up to the fucking "Christian right" (who, in the words of Lizz Winstead, "are neither Christian NOR right") & say, "LOOK....I don't CARE if you think abortion is a fucking sin or NOT. Other people want that option, so we're letting them have it. No one is making you GET one...although maybe YOU should've BEEN one." If anyone is that concerned about "the babies," let them go to Pakistan or Burundi or some OTHER desert hellhole & preach THERE.
I want someone to look at campaigns & say, "HOLY SHIT!! You spent $800,000 on a TV ad & took $300,000 from a Chinese dummy corporation? Doesn't that seem a little WRONG to you??" I've been in politics. I KNOW that the urge to get big money is there...but come ON. THINK. And for that matter, what ever happened to the concept of "representative government?" This is yet another reason why I could never be in politics--I would actually go to my constituents & ask them, "What do YOU want ME to do?" The majority rules. I don't care HOW I feel. I'm not THERE to represent ME, I'm there to represent THEM.
And to get back on target, I want someone to look around at all the weapons groups--both pro & con-- & SMACK them. Tell the NRA to get off its fucking high horse & take off there goddamned blinders. Tell Cease Fire & the rest of the ultra-leftists to stop dropping acid, take a hit off the crack pipe, & see that in The Real World, they're partly to blame for the problems they want to solve with a quick fix.
It's 8000 years of human nature. Nothing's getting changed until someone actually stops playing the sides & works for TRUTH.
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"Do you know how much YOU'RE worth??.....2.5 million Woolongs. THAT'S your bounty. I SAID you were small fry..." --Spike Spiegel
But Shik... just what are you doing breaking into people's houses? Just curious.
I'd have to agree with you on guns and their lack of style. I've always liked stuff like kendo and bo-jitsu.
Don't like the "firearm philosophy" course idea, at least not as a law. "Shall not be abridged." Period. Now if you could get all the people who sell guns to do this voluntarily, it might be OK, but then you'd have the same problem as you have with waiting periods. Namely that there are times in which you need to buy a gun immediately (when someone has threatened to kill you, for example).
"Nothing's getting changed until someone actually stops playing the sides & works for TRUTH."
Problem here is that people on both sides actually think they ARE working for what is right. I certainly believe I am.
And a side note on abortion, you make a distinction between abortion and murder. There is none. Give me one good reason why an unborn child should not be considered a living human being. One. And "because it isn't born yet" does not constitute a good reason.
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"To disarm the people [is] the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
- George Mason, American Statesman and Author of the Virginia Declaration of Rights (1776)
I'll tell you what, I'll post something about evolution, and then maybe we can go another 90 posts with people shouting at each other convinced that they are right and that everyone else is wrong.
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"A fully functioning, cybernetic, technologically advanced team of superheroes... and NOBODY'S got a flashlight?"
- Polly Ester; Samurai Pizza Cats
The problem with it NOT being made a law would be that it wouldn't have the point get across. All laws can be repealed, & in many instances, have term limits. I'd be more than willing to concede a referendum after 10 years to determine whether the law could (or SHOULD) be repealed. This goes to the "people are too fucking lazy to think for themselves" train of thought. Apparently, America needs a nice boot camp mentality where they need to be told exactly what to do & how to act. Seen some of the legislations since the early 80s? Phoof!
As for abortion, my stand on it is this: I'm pro-choice. This does not mean "abortions for all." This means I feel the option should be left open for consideration if the person chooses. Five years ago, my mother told me that had she not had an abortion in 1970, I'd've had an older half-sibling. Wow. I had a girlfriend who was raised Southern Baptist, who personally did not believe in abortion, but was pro-choice because she recognized that her beliefs were no better or worse than another's. As a man, I don't really think what I feel matters. I just know I want that option to be available to my wife/girlfriend/daughter/sister so that SHE can make the choice about HER own body.
My primary line is that people should be free to make their own decisions & have all the options open to them, as long as they are fully aware of the consequences. With abortion, that means that some people are going to see you as a murderer, while others will see you as a "champion of freedom" or some such bullshit like that. With guns, it means that everyone should be free to purchase one, but you have to learn how NOT you use, & if you use it in anger, you lose the right to ever own one again. Notice no one talks about how the prison population is denied voting rights after a year & a day of incarceration; this is because we all agree they've lost the right to participate in that form of society.
I would LOVE to banish all SORTS of shit & people...to set into motion my own genetic "weeding" plans....to make this world my own personal utopia. But it ain't gonna happen. The best I can do is, "Sorry if my shit pisses you off, but it's mine. Your shit pisses me off, TOO, & I think you're a JACKASS, so why don't YOU go over THERE & I'LL stay over HERE & we'll just not talk & things will be bitchin', OK?" YES, we have a responsibility for all sorts of shit on this world. But it starts at home, man. No matter how screwed up my parents made me, they taught me 1 important thing: when you state your opinion, make sure you say as much. This is why I usually end things with lines like, "But I'm a lazy-ass Jew...the hell do I know?"
And now for the full-circle "tie-up:" This is what Trek's about, man. You really think the Tellarites & the Vulcans get along? EVERYONE pisses off the Zaldans & then there's the Argelians & Halkans, who won't even piss on a fire to put it out even if it'd burn down an entire planet because "violence & repression are not our ways." Yet they all manage to work with each other with that common goal in sight. THAT is what we need to do. Blame rock & rap music for kids killing each other? No, let's try looking at what they're TAUGHT--or rather, NOT taught--first. The nation is losing sight of its "Christian morality?" I got NEWS for ya: it never HAD any. Half the Founding Fathers refused to accept organized religion & realized its inherent problems; that's why there's no "official" state religion OR language. YES, I hate that Paco & Jorge can't be bothered to learn English anymore & yammer away at me in Spanish or Portuguese or that Phoung cooked my dog in some sort of Laotian voodoo ritual. But man, that's their RIGHT in this nation, just as it's my right to bitch about it & everything else on the wwweb.
Everyone's just gotta calm the fuck DOWN. Put on some jazz, grab a pint of ice cream, flop on the couch, & watch some kids play. Do it for 20 minutes a day every day; you'll feel a WHOLE lot better & it'll put everything into perspective.
As for my being in other people's houses....I had some dealings with the shadier side of the law in my youth. No arrests, charges, or convictions....mainly silly kid stuff, but it was enough.
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"Do you know how much YOU'RE worth??.....2.5 million Woolongs. THAT'S your bounty. I SAID you were small fry..." --Spike Spiegel
Guns aren't elegant, honorable, or manly. That much is true. I myself, would disdain their use... if there weren't so many inelegant, dishonorable, less-than-a-man people out there carrying them already. Putting yourself at a distinct disadvantage is not a survival instinct. Ask all the people who think Federation ships should have cloaking devices.
Of course, you'll notice, if you pay close enough attention, that many of the same people who favor gun control also scoff at such "antiquated" notions of personal honor. They also tend to have strange notions of property rights, as though you don't deserve what you work to earn.
There's a pattern there...
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"Nobody knows this, but I'm scared all the time... of what I might do, if I ever let go." -- Michael Garibaldi
So forgive me, and the NRA, if we defend the Bill of rights as WRITTEN. The ACLU does the same, and I don't see them taking such heat from that side.
Other than that, I pretty much agree with Shik.
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"Nobody knows this, but I'm scared all the time... of what I might do, if I ever let go." -- Michael Garibaldi
Don't get me wrong. I dig the idea behind the militia, that the common man can take up arms against invaders. But when that was written, that was a major necessity. Today....we've the ability to helo in 2 squads of special forces teams to pick off the enemy forces from a mile away one by one. Look at the 12th Amendment: back in 1804, the Electoral College was a damn happenin' & necessary idea. Today, it's not much needed thanks to instantaneous (or nearly so) communication. I'm fairly sure that if the Bill of Rights were written today, they'd be a lot different in some areas. Searches would be easier, double jeopardy would probably be out the door, the 11th Amendment would never fly, & "eminent domain" would be laughed out of the convention.
You are right, though...the ACLU DOES get a little overzealous at times, especially where prisoner's rights are concerned.
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"Do you know how much YOU'RE worth??.....2.5 million Woolongs. THAT'S your bounty. I SAID you were small fry..." --Spike Spiegel
quote:
As opposed, say, to the gated, high-security, armed-guard-patrolled hollywood liberal elite suburbs?
You come on out here my friend...we'll cruise Hollywood and other areas. I think what you will find that most of the gated communities are either north or south of Los Angeles and represent the 'white flight' that L.A. has expereinced over the years. Nor do I think you will find them particularly "liberal".
I've got one or two things to say to Omega in reply, but I have some work to do first.
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Oh, goody, the Sea Monkeys I ordered have arrived. Heh heh heh, look at them cavort and caper.
~C. Montgomery Burns
And be sure to visit The Field Marshal project http://fieldmarshal.virtualave.net/
Gotta agree with that. This has gone through, what, three subjects now?
"does anyone really feel that the threat of having the army billet a bunch of guys in there house is a problem? No, of course not."
I don't, either, but I still want a guarentee that they won't do it. It's one of those private property things.
"That's '...shall not be INFRINGED.'"
Oops. I did say "abridged", didn't I? Where did that come from, I wonder. Thanks.
"the 2nd Amendment prohibits only the national government from limiting the populace's right to own firearms"
If that were the case, it would follow that the first ammendment only applies to the fed, too. By that logic, any state could disallow anyone from practicing any given religion, or from speaking or printing whatever they please. This is obviously not the intent of the constitution. Your point is invalid.
I eagerly await Jay's new points to slaughter.
J/K
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"To disarm the people [is] the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
- George Mason, American Statesman and Author of the Virginia Declaration of Rights (1776)
[This message has been edited by Omega (edited June 21, 2000).]
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"Remeber, if there is a nuclear explosion, be sure to close your windows as the massive heat could cause objects within your home to catch fire".
Wise, wise words.
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"Do you know how much YOU'RE worth??.....2.5 million Woolongs. THAT'S your bounty. I SAID you were small fry..." --Spike Spiegel
And Omega, in the spirit of friendly debate, I will simply say that your choice of "slaughter" to rebut any points I bring to the table was poor at best. Do grow up.
Later, like I said earlier, I believe I will have some ideas that you can argue for or against.
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Oh, goody, the Sea Monkeys I ordered have arrived. Heh heh heh, look at them cavort and caper.
~C. Montgomery Burns
And be sure to visit The Field Marshal project http://fieldmarshal.virtualave.net/
*finds edit button*
There, that's better. I keep forgetting that you can't carry inflections over text. Didn't mean anything serious by it. Sorry for the confusion. My sense of humor can be a little strange(r) that late.
Shik:
"Fortunately, it's not my point, but the point of constitutional historians."
It doesn't really matter whose point it is. By my logic, it's invalid. Besides, I could find you geologists that support the strangest ideas, but that hardly means that they're valid. Even what the majority thinks isn't nesecary valid.
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"To disarm the people [is] the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
- George Mason, American Statesman and Author of the Virginia Declaration of Rights (1776)
My reference to Sherman was towards his willingness to utterly destroy Atlanta and the other Southern towns he marched through in order to complete his objective.
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"Nobody knows this, but I'm scared all the time... of what I might do, if I ever let go." -- Michael Garibaldi
Just wondering Omega, are you a part of any local militias or similar organisations?
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"Remeber, if there is a nuclear explosion, be sure to close your windows as the massive heat could cause objects within your home to catch fire".
Wise, wise words.
I'd like a lifetime membership with the NRA, though. Anyone want to lend me $550?
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"To disarm the people [is] the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
- George Mason, American Statesman and Author of the Virginia Declaration of Rights (1776)
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"Do you know how much YOU'RE worth??.....2.5 million Woolongs. THAT'S your bounty. I SAID you were small fry..." --Spike Spiegel
I'm not this way because of any people or any things. I believe what I believe because that is what comes naturally with rational thought. I follow in no one's footsteps, nor do I rebel. I let no one else define me. If you happen to agree with me, well, good for you. If not, I'll try and change your mind.
That's why I get into these arguments. I try to convince you guys that I'm right. Failing that, I try to convince anyone that's undecided who reads them that I'm right. Failing that, I prop up my own ego.
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"To disarm the people [is] the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
- George Mason, American Statesman and Author of the Virginia Declaration of Rights (1776)
Regarding Hitler: in HS, I took a course called Mass Communications. Basically, it was an intro to advertising. Very cool. One day, I pissed off the teacher (again) & he assigned me a specialty assignment: I was to write up a political campaign for someone in history; political ads are the hardest kind to do. I had a week t'do it. So..a week later, I walk in....he has me stand in front of the class. I leaned against the desk & said the following:
"There's a man. He's a war veteran. He's a patriot & loves his country. He loves little dogs, he loves small children. He sees that his nation is going through some very trying times, that his people are being torn apart at the seams. He's realized that there are some very dangerous forces at work here contributing to the problems at hand & his greatest wish is to alert his countrymen to these problems & forces, to unite them against the cause of their misery, & to create a new joyous age for them."
The teacher then asked for a raise of hands on whether or not they would vote for the person; they all raised their hands. I smiled & said, "CONGRATULATIONS!! You've just elected Adolf Hitler!!"
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"Do you know how much YOU'RE worth??.....2.5 million Woolongs. THAT'S your bounty. I SAID you were small fry..." --Spike Spiegel
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"Ultra Magnus is Undeniably Fun!" David Stevens, New York Magazine.
"Total Complete excitement from start to finish!" -WPIX-TV, New York
"This isn't a thrill ride, it's a rocket..." -Richard Caves, Time Magazine.
My mother is a Sunday Methodist, registered Republican retired kindergarten teacher who voted for Perot last time, rather crabby outside of class, demanding, grouchy, and hard to get along with. She tends to have rather Victorian ideas on morality and propriety. OR, outgoing, personable, and fun, if you're on her good side. She's the family "Klingon."
My father is a registered Democrat, but he thinks, so he hardly ever votes that way. He's a lifetime NRA member, and was once on the fast track to becoming a Baptist minister, before he saw how his church really worked, and got disillusioned. He taught chemistry and human behaviour for 35 years, and just retired. Fairly calm and placid, he's the family "Vulcan." (Plus, back when he had his old goatee and a full head of hair, he looked very much like Mirror Spock)
_I_ am what you get when these two opposing forces collide, and create offspring. Scary, huh? If you ask them, they will tell you that I resemble each of them, but am smarter, strong-willed and harder to control, even harder to convince, and considerably more well-read than most humans. I, too, came to my thoughts and ideas after long and careful study, because they are the only ones that work.
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"Nobody knows this, but I'm scared all the time... of what I might do, if I ever let go." -- Michael Garibaldi
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"To disarm the people [is] the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
- George Mason, American Statesman and Author of the Virginia Declaration of Rights (1776)
Who's the cutie on the righthand side of the banner on the top of that site, eh?
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"Do you know how much YOU'RE worth??.....2.5 million Woolongs. THAT'S your bounty. I SAID you were small fry..." --Spike Spiegel
I live near Quinn, and generally agree with him, except for the whole church and state thing, and the gay thing.
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"Nobody knows this, but I'm scared all the time... of what I might do, if I ever let go." -- Michael Garibaldi