I have always believed it is the right of every person to defend themselves. According to some, you have no right to self-defense. In some places, even in your own home you are not permitted to defend yourself or your property.
So tell me. If you've made the grievous mistake of sleeping in your own bed and an armed stranger breaks into your house/apartment/hovel, do you deserve to die? Is it a crime to raise a finger in your own defense?
Tell me what you think?
~~Baloo
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Beer lovers take note:
Stroh's spelled backwards is "shorts."
http://www.geocities.com/cyrano_jones.geo/
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"Remeber, if there is a nuclear explosion, be sure to close your windows as the massive heat could cause objects within your home to catch fire".
Wise, wise words.
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"Do you want to be President?"
"Yes."
"Put you hand on the book and say 'I do'."
"I do."
"Good, done. Let's eat!"
- G'kar and Sheridan, Babylon 5.
I see that this article is supposed to support the conspiracy theory that the US Government is out to confiscate all firearms. I still don't see this happening yet, and at the same time, I don't believe total confiscation of all firearms is the answer.
"It started with the Pistols Act of 1903. This seemingly reasonable law forbade selling pistols to minors or felons and established that handgun sales were to be made only to those who had a license. The Firearms Act of 1920 expanded licensing to include not only handguns but all firearms except shotguns. Later laws passed in 1953 and 1967 outlawed the carrying of any weapon by private citizens and mandated the registration of all shotguns."
The UK has somewhat bent over backwards with this with total gun confiscation. The Firearms Act of 1920 perhaps the best and most adequate law to be passed in regards to gun-control, while respecting the rights of private gun-owners. As for the laws in 1953 and 1967, I'm not sure if it either outlawed a private citizen from owning a firearm, or from a private citizen carrying a firearm in public. If it was the latter, it made perfect sense (you didn't want to get shot by the man whose foot you accidently stepped on, and you didn't know he had a concealed weapon). If it was the former, then it didn't.
After the Hungerford mass shooting, the weapon that should have been banned was the Kalashnikov Rifle involved in the shootings. I've heard that these rifles are only designed to kill and one of the more malicious rifles on the gun market. Likewise, after the Dunblane shooting, the semis too should have been banned. I may be wrong but I remember something about the shooter using an Uzi and a Tek-9, weapons that are only designed to kill and should be banned.
A person in the United States shoots and kills a person who stumbled into the wrong house looking for a party. He gets off on all charges. A person in UK shoots to defend against actual criminals and gets life. Looking at the article, I would point a finger of the DA's in this case. Vengeful DA's who used the justice system to twist the entire case against a possibly innocent man who shouldn't have been convicted at the first place.
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"My Name is Elmer Fudd, Millionaire. I own a Mansion and a Yacht."
Psychiatrist: "Again."
[This message has been edited by Tahna Los (edited June 27, 2000).]
"One holds a weapon--it looks like a crowbar. When the intruder brandishes it as if to strike..."
A direct threat is certainly grounds to shoot someone. Do you think these two thugs would have been going around robbing people and beating them up if they'd thought there was a chance they'd run up against the business end of a gun? 'Course not.
You have a right to life, and to property. You have a right to defend your rights, by whatever means nesecary. Thus, you have a right to defend your life and property, by whatever means nesecary to do so. Guns should not be outlawed. They are a legitimate means of self-defence.
Now those assault weapons that couldn't possibly be used in self-defence, those I'd go for outlawing the sale of. It would not infringe on your right to keep and bear arms.
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"To disarm the people [is] the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
- George Mason, American Statesman and Author of the Virginia Declaration of Rights (1776)
And who said the Media was impartial, anyways?
Omega: Now those assault weapons that couldn't possibly be used in self-defence, those I'd go for outlawing the sale of. It would not infringe on your right to keep and bear arms.
Agreed. But I thought you were going to spout a large spiel on how gun-control is useless and requiring citizens to have a license and registration for guns is a very stupid thing. Does this mean we actually agree on something?
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"My Name is Elmer Fudd, Millionaire. I own a Mansion and a Yacht."
Psychiatrist: "Again."
[This message has been edited by Tahna Los (edited June 27, 2000).]
But requiring a licence and registration for all guns IS a bad idea. Background check, definitely good, but what the article says happened in GB is exactly why there shouldn't be a central registry. Whether it WILL happen or not doesn't matter. I don't want there to be the slightest possibility of someone confiscating my guns.
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"To disarm the people [is] the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
- George Mason, American Statesman and Author of the Virginia Declaration of Rights (1776)
Essentially, as long as the perpetrator is in retreat and is therefore not presenting a definite and immediate threat to you or your family, you can't just blow him to He**. That's considered murder, although I can't for the life of me figure out why. The law seems to take the view that the preservation of human life as public policy takes precedent over your right to protect your private property. However, let's say the perp is actually threatening you or a loved one, or if you REASONABLY believe that he was, then by all means lock and load!
The key here is the word "reasonable." Would a reasonable person believe that the burglar was threatening you with bodily harm, and act accordingly? Here in conservative Orange County, California, we dont have too many debates on this topic. If a criminal enters your home and you terminate him, well, that's his problem. He needs to fix that sudden bleeding problem. However, I recall reading cases about residents killing burglars, after which the resident was tried for homicide.
The bottom line here is that we should contact local law enforcement or a local lawyer to learn what the law is in our specific jurisdiction to protect ourselves from breaking the law if some DA thinks we've acted unreasonably. By the way, I'm not a lawyer, so don't take the above as legal advice - its just what I remember off the top of my head. I got tired of the law (I thought it was too focused on winning and not on finding the truth) so I left.
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Everything in life I ever needed to know I learned from The Simpsons.
Someone entering your house while you are HOME is likely to kill you. Why? Because, since criminals don't like witnesses, he's probably already planned for that contingency, and it doesn't worry him. Why should it worry you?
And a crowbar is an effective murder weapon. Brandishing it when it is no longer needed is a clear sign that it's going to be used for a purpose other than prying the window open.
Shooting to wound is a clean and easy way to bankrupt yourself and your family, because a surviving criminal will no DOUBT sue you, even if it IS frivolous. This is even more likely in a country like the US, which does not have a 'loser pays' lawsuit system to help prevent such things.
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"Nobody knows this, but I'm scared all the time... of what I might do, if I ever let go." -- Michael Garibaldi
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Fool of a Took, throw yourself in next time!!
Gandalf
Luckily, the man was exonerated and the burglar was sent to jail.
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"The lies I told are not falsehoods according to my definition of truth." Bill Clinton
"All stupid people are liberals, because they don't know any better." Rob Rodehorst
"Don't underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups" - Dilbert, Scott Adams
Personally, I'm sick of this "let's all feel sorry for the criminal" crud. If someone enters my house without permission, armed, and with a clear intent to do mischief, then he's fair game. I'll draw the line at children who get lost and open the wrong door - hey, it happens. But if its three AM and some masked idiot breaks into my house, and he comes near me before the police can arrive, then look out - that's a clear threat to my person.
In law school the joke on this subject was that if you don't want the wounded burglar to sue you, well, you know what to do...
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Everything in life I ever needed to know I learned from The Simpsons.
Will they now outlaw "Self Defense Courses"? If they do I wonder if my Christian school will still teach a class. Yes, I know we are so evil! 
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If you don't believe in what I say or the God I speak of I guess you'll just have to meet me so the Lord and I can convert you.
Although not possessions...Family? sure...
To protect yourself?...you bet. Self defense is a basic human right.
But what else.
A person enters your house to rob you...has a gun...as you reach for your gun you have to know that if there is shooting there is a chance you might be shot or even killed.
So what are you thinking as that happens. Your CD collection is more important than your life? Or how dare this fellow enter MY house!? Or what? I am quite curious...
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Oh, goody, the Sea Monkeys I ordered have arrived. Heh heh heh, look at them cavort and caper.
~C. Montgomery Burns
And be sure to visit The Field Marshal project http://fieldmarshal.virtualave.net/
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June is National Accordion Awareness Month.
"I love being British. We don't have to do any real work, we sit around looking smug, pointing at the US and saying 'We used to be young like that once.' Then we drink tea." - Liam Ka--thingy
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But the dead only quickly decay. They don't go about being born and reborn and rising and falling like souffle. The dead only quickly decay.
--
Gothic Archies
****
Read chapter one of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! For the love of God, Montressor!
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"Remeber, if there is a nuclear explosion, be sure to close your windows as the massive heat could cause objects within your home to catch fire".
Wise, wise words.
What I am wondering is how much our possessions are worth.
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Oh, goody, the Sea Monkeys I ordered have arrived. Heh heh heh, look at them cavort and caper.
~C. Montgomery Burns
And be sure to visit The Field Marshal project http://fieldmarshal.virtualave.net/
Jay, you seem to be laboring under some odd misapprehension that YOUR life is somehow in greater danger when you confront a criminal while you are armed, rather than defenseless.
This may have something to do with the frequent depiction in the entertainment media of people who draw their guns, and then are 'brow-beat' by the crook into dropping their guard, whereupon the criminal disarms and kills them.
This is one of the more glaring differences between TV and real life.
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"Nobody knows this, but I'm scared all the time... of what I might do, if I ever let go." -- Michael Garibaldi
My father is an ex-Marine (well, once a Marine always a Marine) who had, as I remember, at least 2 weapons in our house. Probably still does, but I don't live there anymore.
I do know something about guns and I know what guns can do to the human body. I own 3 rifles and 2 pistols.
Rifles: Model 1855 Enfiled Rifled Musket, .577 caliber.
Late 1890's early 1900's Springfield Trapdoor Rifle.
WWII era M1 Garand.
Pistols: .44 caliber Remington Army cap and ball pistol.
.36 caliber Colt Navy cap and ball pistol.
These generaly come from a period when I re-enacted the American Civil War and are black powder, from my Grandfather (the Springfiled), or from a time when I thought about re-enacting WWII. They are of historical significance to things that I have studied, and I do not have any amunition for these weapons.
I also own a set of steak knives.
I'm simply asking a question of people who say they would defend their property...at what point do you draw the gun? At what cost do you defend your DVD player?
Condider this if you will. Your saftey is not in question when you are at home alone. You can waddle out in your bunny slippers for a galss of milk and be ok...but when that evil bad guy makes the decision to break the law and enter your home for the purpose of taking your possessions that you worked hard for.
That in and of itself is wrong, wrong, wrong. Bad even. Please make no mistake, the criminal is the one who causes this situation in the first place...not you...that is not the issue. This person broke in...no longer are you snug in your bed, but there is someone in your house!
Is he armed? Does he just want the TV and will leave once stolen? Do I call the cops and let them handle the situation?
The criminal broke the law and should be punished. But what I am asking is how can any thinking person not understand that when you as a homeowner make the decision to confront a robber, whether you or the robber is armed or not, that the danger level has ratcheted up a considerable level?
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Oh, goody, the Sea Monkeys I ordered have arrived. Heh heh heh, look at them cavort and caper.
~C. Montgomery Burns
And be sure to visit The Field Marshal project http://fieldmarshal.virtualave.net/
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Cigar Girl- "Would you like to check my figures?"
James Bond- "I'm sure that they are very well rounded..."
The World is Not Enough
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"Ultra Magnus is Undeniably Fun!" David Stevens, New York Magazine.
"Total Complete excitement from start to finish!" -WPIX-TV, New York
"This isn't a thrill ride, it's a rocket..." -Richard Caves, Time Magazine.
If someone breaks into your home, you have no way of knowing what their intent is, apart from it being hostile intent. They didn't knock, they didn't send a postcard saying:
Don't be alarmed, but on Saturday, the 1st of July, around 2:00 a.m., I'll be breaking into your home. Don't worry. I just want the T.V. and silverware.~~Your friendly neighborhood burglar
P.S.: I'm bringing a gun, but don't worry, it isn't for you. I'll need the protection when I go back to my own neighborhood.
If anyone breaks into my home, I will, if given the opportunity, call the police and hold the breaker at gunpoint until the cops can come collect him. If at any time during this process I feel that I, or someone else, is in immediate danger of serious injury or death from this person, I will shoot. If he lives, I will let the police know that an ambulance will be required also (hey, I dialed 911, right? They're still on the line). If the perp is definitely rendered unable to resist further, I will possibly render first aid, but only if I can do so without putting myself at risk.
I will not shoot to wound. That's foolish. A shot that's intended to wound has a very high probability of passing through the victim's body, retaining enough kinetic energy to be a lethal danger to anyone behind that person. Another consideration the "shoot-to-wound" crowd fails to consider is that bullets have LOTS of kinetic energy and do very serious damage when they strike bones, muscle, nerves and arteries. Even shooting someone in the leg (provided you don't miss such a difficult-to-hit target in the heat of the moment) you risk severing an artery, shattering bone, destroying muscle, damaging nerves, etc. You can do lethal, inhumanly painful damage to a person even if you hit a limb. If the victim does not die before paramedics can stabilize him, he stands a very good chance of being crippled for life.
Your efforts to be "kind" have resulted in a tragedy some consider worse than death. Be sure that if the victim (or his family) sues, you will be described in terms that will leave the jury in little doubt that you are a sadistic, evil bastard, delighting in the damage you inflicted upon this "poor, tortured soul". If you shoot to wound, you are gambling that your bullets will not strike innocents, and (secondarily) you risk cruelly wounding your target. You don't pull the wings off a bee to keep it from stinging you, do you?
If you are going to use or threaten lethal force, then use it as intended. Don't play with it -- you're a danger to yourself and everyone around you otherwise.
Shoot yourself. It's less trouble. Then maybe if the cops catch the guy it will be your family suing for wrongful death. Me? The cops' job would be much easier if we didn't just stand back and let the criminals alone. I'm not suggesting that we all buy guns and play vigilante, but that we be aware of our surroundings, and be wise enough to take appropriate action when the circumstances warrant, from dialing 911 to confronting a violent person (if you are capable) and stopping them from doing further harm.
~~Baloo
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Beer lovers take note:
Stroh's spelled backwards is "shorts."
http://www.geocities.com/cyrano_jones.geo/
[This message has been edited by Baloo (edited June 29, 2000).]
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Cigar Girl- "Would you like to check my figures?"
James Bond- "I'm sure that they are very well rounded..."
The World is Not Enough
Good. Let him suffer from his own actions. He does deserve it, doesn't he?
Now, I understand your arguments in the "shoot to wound" category. I agree that you may very well be right on this matter. Though I will admit that using choice force will depend on the possible danger that the criminal presents (and the situation too). A crowbar can't do anything if he's on the floor, writhing in pain. A pistol, any pistol, is much worse, and by all means, blow the fucker's head to hell. Same goes to the fucker who attacks a loved one of mine (Mother specifically excluded from this list).
Jay is right. I'm not going to kill anyone over a TV set.
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"My Name is Elmer Fudd, Millionaire. I own a Mansion and a Yacht."
Psychiatrist: "Again."
"Does he just want the TV and will leave once stolen?"
Are you willing to risk your life and the life of your family on that possibility?
"how can any thinking person not understand that when you as a homeowner make the decision to confront a robber, whether you or the robber is armed or not, that the danger level has ratcheted up a considerable level?"
Are you reading Fo2's posts? Exactly what he's saying is that the danger level is NOT higher if you confront the criminal. When you've got a gun pointed at someone from across a room, they usually pose a significantly lower threat to you than they do wandering around your house unhindered.
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"To disarm the people [is] the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
- George Mason, American Statesman and Author of the Virginia Declaration of Rights (1776)
In any case, a unencumbred criminal will generally wander through all the rooms of a house, anyway, so your chances of an encounter/confrontation if you are home are quite high in any case... even if you hide under your bed... and far more advantageous to you if you're armed.
So as I said before... you're not risking your life if you defend your house or property, as much as you are if you don't.
It says so on my front door: "Nothing here is worth your life." So it's not as if they weren't warned. You breaks your houses, you takes your chances, to paraphrase an old saying.
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"Nobody knows this, but I'm scared all the time... of what I might do, if I ever let go." -- Michael Garibaldi
The reasoning behind this? Local prosecutors argued that instead of confronting the burglar, they should have gone out the window.
As for the lethality of non-firearms, just read a book by a guy named Maple (I think) called "Dead Men Do Tell Tales." The guy is a forensic expert, seen it all. Early on he lists the various makeshift weapons he's seen used with lethal effect, including crutches and a prosthetic leg.
In the pictures section is a photograph of a murder victim's skull--- and the indentation left by a crow bar.
quote:
Local prosecutors argued that instead of confronting the burglar, they should have gone out the window.
And by that logic, they declare (though not expressly) that you do not have the right to be safe anywhere. If you can't be safe in your own home, how are you safer crawling out the window? Perhaps you'd better live in the park, where you can run no matter what direction someone approaches you. Perhaps you'd better break into other peoples' homes. No-one can shoot you for threatening them there, and if they do, it is they who will suffer the vengeance of the law.
The burglar is secure in his right to invade your home and threaten your safety, but you are not secure in your right to be secure in your own house.
This is justice?
~~Baloo
------------------
Beer lovers take note:
Stroh's spelled backwards is "shorts."
http://www.geocities.com/cyrano_jones.geo/
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Personal Ad # 74913
-I'm an 18 year old Filipino student in the Los Angeles area looking for a steady boyfriend to compensate for very healthy sexual appetite. Must be white, blond, and have blue eyes.
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"To disarm the people [is] the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
- George Mason, American Statesman and Author of the Virginia Declaration of Rights (1776)
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If a diamond is a woman's best friend, why does a man has to settle for a dog?
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"To disarm the people [is] the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
- George Mason, American Statesman and Author of the Virginia Declaration of Rights (1776)
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Frank's Home Page
"Canadian bacon is called that because it's made from Canadians. And while I'm on the subject, could you people cut back on the fish and rodents and eat more fruits and berries? It would vastly improve your flavor, in my opinion." - Simon Sizer
Sorry, but that made me spit out my coke.
Trully, out of all the problems society currently has, the Middle Class are suffering the most. Some of them can only afford two cars. And they can't even get all the cable channels. And poor little Cynthia is having pony-lessons at an inferior stable. How can these poor put upon people afford food, let alone lawyers?
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"I can't believe we're actually gonna meet Guru Lou. Everyone says he's the wisest man in the universe. He's sensitive, creative, has a great sense of humour, and he's a really smooth dancer. *giggles*"
"You're confused Polly. We're not meeting Paul Newman."
- Polly & Speedy; Samurai Pizza Cats
That and $500 screwdrivers, spending $1 million to 'protect' an area of wetlands the size of a ping-pong table, and inflated prices for subsidized foods. Oh, and OPEC.
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"Nobody knows this, but I'm scared all the time... of what I might do, if I ever let go." -- Michael Garibaldi
On second thought, blame OPEC. They're doing what Clinton asked.
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"To disarm the people [is] the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
- George Mason, American Statesman and Author of the Virginia Declaration of Rights (1776)
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"Remeber, if there is a nuclear explosion, be sure to close your windows as the massive heat could cause objects within your home to catch fire".
Wise, wise words.
Smithers, have the Austrian killed.
"But sir..."
Do as I say!
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But the dead only quickly decay. They don't go about being born and reborn and rising and falling like souffle. The dead only quickly decay.
--
Gothic Archies
****
Read chapter one of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! For the love of God, Montressor!
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"Nobody knows this, but I'm scared all the time... of what I might do, if I ever let go." -- Michael Garibaldi
Oh, wait...
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"I can't believe we're actually gonna meet Guru Lou. Everyone says he's the wisest man in the universe. He's sensitive, creative, has a great sense of humour, and he's a really smooth dancer. *giggles*"
"You're confused Polly. We're not meeting Paul Newman."
- Polly & Speedy; Samurai Pizza Cats
*tongue-in-cheek statements follow*
Military? Who needs a military when the other guys can't spare the gas for the tanks?
(Not that the other guys are always smart enough to realize that they can't spare it...if they were, we wouldn't keep having these stupid little brush wars all the time -- Hey! You in the dune! Feeding your family is more important than ownership of 20 sq km of SAND!!!)
I suppose the case could be made that we deserve to keep our reserves of gas because we're the most likely folks to come up with a way to get along without the gas, once things start getting tight. I mean, who ELSE could build an orbiting solar power station... Belgium?? Pakistan??
On the other hand... it was when the fossil fuels started getting depleted that the big wars always started when I played Sim Earth...
On the gripping hand, I ended a lot of those wars by dropping meteors on the aggressors... we could do that, too.
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"Nobody knows this, but I'm scared all the time... of what I might do, if I ever let go." -- Michael Garibaldi
Darn. Pressed the wrong buttons again.
Sorry about the city... we'll build you a new one. Again.
[This message has been edited by First of Two (edited July 07, 2000).]
Anyways, our esteemed Perpetrator Bill Clinton has made several policies to make the US dependant on foreign oil... Like, for instance, not allowing off-shore drilling, exploring Alaska for oil, putting land that contains oil and coal under federal protection...etc.
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"The lies I told are not falsehoods according to my definition of truth." Bill Clinton
"All stupid people are liberals, because they don't know any better." Rob Rodehorst
"Don't underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups" - Dilbert, Scott Adams
At the time of Desert Storm, the US imported only 15% of its oil...Today, I'm sure it is much higher.
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"The lies I told are not falsehoods according to my definition of truth." Bill Clinton
"All stupid people are liberals, because they don't know any better." Rob Rodehorst
"Don't underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups" - Dilbert, Scott Adams
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"Nobody knows this, but I'm scared all the time... of what I might do, if I ever let go." -- Michael Garibaldi