This is topic This is just sick in forum The Flameboard at Flare Sci-Fi Forums.


To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://flare.solareclipse.net/ultimatebb.php/topic/11/554.html

Posted by Diane (Member # 53) on :
 
"Controlling China's Baby Boom"

OUR children are our future. And yet as the world population continues to boom, there is ever increasing competition for finite resources. Nowhere is this felt more intensely than in China. But is the policy used to address this problem putting China's future behind it? China is the world's most populous nation and its population has, on average, increased by over 25 people every minute, every day for the past 40 years. It now stands at over 1.2 thousand million people. Population numbers have reached such heights that the Chinese are even running out of room to bury the dead and people in urban areas are now being cremated, something which goes against 3,000 years of tradition.

Although Mao Zedong introduced birth control in 1954, he was not particularly concerned about China's population growth and was quoted as saying, 'Every stomach comes with two hands attached. On no account must we think we have too many people . In 1979, the new government, under Deng Xiaoping recognised that action needed to be taken. Without intervention, the population was predicted to rise to 1.4 thousand million by the year 2000, throwing the country into turmoil with a strong danger of widespread famine and poverty.

So, the One Child Policy was introduced aiming to level out the population at 1.2 thousand million by the year 2000, and then to bring it down to 700 million over the next century. Since no actual law exists governing the number of children a couple can have, a series of incentives and 'disincentives have been designed in order to give the policy at least some chance of success. Families with one child get preferential treatment including paid pregnancy leave for up to three years, a 5-10 per cent salary bonus, free health care and education and higher pensions upon retirement. Families with more than one child are excluded from these benefits and are subject to financial penalties. In Henan province, in central China, parents who have a second child have to pay 20 per cent of their annual income for seven years. The penalty for the third child is 30 per cent for fourteen years.

However, new flaws in the policy have arisen due to China's soaring economic growth. In the countryside, peasants and farmers, who constitute 80 per cent of the population, are becoming wealthy enough to afford the fines for the second and subsequent children while newly affluent city dwellers are able to bribe the poorly paid family planning officers. The other much harsher unofficial disincentives, forced abortions and sterilisations, have resulted in a number of alarming social problems in China. Since the introduction of the policy there have been local abortion gangs which, following the government policy, are intent on keeping the number of children born in their area within the officially allocated quota because they are afraid of being penalised for not meeting targets.

The abortion gangs often capture women who are pregnant for a second time and arrange for an immediate abortion. If the woman does not co-operate, the gangs have been known to cut off water and electricity from the living quarters until she consents to an abortion, and in extreme cases, houses have actually been burnt down. In other cases, husbands have been beaten, a stroke for each day of their wife's pregnancy until they agree to abort their second child. Abortion is allowed often as dangerously late as eight months. There have been horrific stories of piles of foetuses dumped in waste bins and women committing suicide after discovering that their aborted child was male. Peng Yu, the vice minister of the State Family Planning Commission denied his government would force women to abort a child. 'Whether or not a pregnant woman has a sterilisation or abortion depends totally on her own wish. If she refuses to do so, no coercive action will work , he said. However, he admitted that in some areas coercion may have occurred in the initial phases of family planning activities.

The policy has been gradually altered and refined since it was first introduced in 1979. In rural areas a second child may be allowed, on the basis of proper spacing to avoid peak years, if the first born was a girl. The Government also wants to be fair to minority groups (i.e. non-Han ethnic groups) with less than 10 million people which could otherwise be in danger of dying out. Fifty-six minority groups exist in China today including Tibetans, Yi, Pumi and Lisu and they are allowed to have two or more children per couple. The One Child Policy has had dramatic social implications since it was first enforced. Many of the disturbing problems that have been witnessed since the policy's introduction stem from the fact that women in Chinese society, although their status is changing, are still considered subordinate to men. This is epitomised by the Chinese saying, 'If a woman does not have a husband, her body does not have an owner .

Binding of a woman's feet at birth was an act which illustrates the inferior status of women -- it was introduced in China about a thousand years ago by the concubine of an emperor because men considered small feet erotic and there are still elderly women alive today in China who are suffering at the hands of this inhumane tradition. Mothers had to bind their daughters' toes under the sole of the foot and then break the arch using a rock. This crippled the daughter for life but it was vital if she was to have a worthy marriage. As soon as a woman was married, the bridegroom's family would examine her feet and if her feet were much over four inches long she was looked upon with disdain and contempt.

Results of a survey by the State Statistics Bureau indicate Chinese women have achieved dramatic progress, especially over the past decade with their status being improved both at home and in society. However, male babies are still considered more valuable than females. The most important reason for this is that the family line dies out if there is no boy. A boy will also bring prestige in a male dominated society and women in the countryside are often considered inferior if they cannot produce a son. They also have greater economic potential and are more likely to look after their parents in their old age because daughters are usually expected to live with their husband's family. Sons are particularly in need in the countryside where at least 80 million do not have enough to eat. Eighty per cent of the Chinese population earn their living from the land and the work is often heavy and demanding so those who have not had a son often go on to have two, three or more children until they do so. As a result, the policy has been more effective in the cities than in the countryside where the demands of agricultural work and stronger traditions have meant the rules are bent more readily.

Six million females in China are called Laidi, Zheodii or Yindi, all of which mean 'Bring a little brother . In rural areas, daughters are nick-named 'maggots in the rice bowl . Restricting a family to one child results in many couples going to any lengths to have a boy baby. Abortion after discovering an unborn child is female and infanticide are on no account isolated cases. When questions are asked of the whereabouts of the 1.7 million female babies that fail to show up in birth statistics each year there are disturbing explanations. The pre-revolutionary custom of killing female or handicapped infants has revived, especially in rural areas, since the introduction of the policy. The parents hope that their next pregnancy brings them a boy. In the eastern district of Hefei city, for example, over 50 baby girls were drowned within two months of the implementation of the policy.

China's booming economic growth results in easier access to ultrasound machines which can detect the sex of the foetus. Many women are now taking ultrasound tests to control the sex of their unborn child, aborting the female foetus after the examination. In 1991 it was made illegal for Chinese doctors to tell parents the sex of their unborn child but since doctors are so poorly paid, a lot of underhand dealings go on. The campaigns of Western 'pro-life groups, incited by reports like these, have resulted in the US government withholding �13 million a year from the United Nations Population Fund, a major source of finance for family planning projects in developing countries.

Hong Kong recently planned to ban trading in human foetuses which are being imported from China and used in traditional remedies and health foods. One Hong Kong man recently admitted that he brought back foetuses in a thermos flask for an asthma cure. With such high numbers of abortions carried out each year due to the One Child Policy, there are large numbers of aborted foetuses which can be sold for as little as �1 each. In Shenzhen, southern China, approximately 7,000 abortions are carried out each year, one doctor in the town said she ate 100 in six months to preserve her complexion. 'They are wasted if we do not eat them ... making soup is best .

The male to female ratio in China has been seriously unbalanced since the policy's introduction. In 1992, Chinese birth figures indicated the proportion of boys to girls was 118.5 to 100. The United Nations suggested international norm is 106 to 100. This equates to 36 million more males than females at present and a predicted surplus of 70 million single males by the end of the century as a result of the policy. This will inevitably enhance the success of the policy but it is already having injurious consequences. The abduction of women is now widespread, especially from rural areas such as Yunnan and Sichuan in the poor south-west, to the rich east coast. The trade is worth over �700 million a year and the problem is likely to escalate as men find it increasingly hard to find a wife. Although women are still considered inferior to men, they are now beginning to be considered more 'valuable .

Another course of action for desperate parents who give birth to a female baby is to abandon their child. The recent controversial documentary 'The Dying Rooms revealed the harrowing situation in many of China's state-run orphanages. The British television crew filmed secretly and found that thousands of unwanted toddlers were abandoned to die in the dark, soaked in their own urine. Many babies are also abandoned if they are handicapped. There are an estimated ten million handicapped babies in China today. Wang Rui Quiong, director of the municipally funded Shenzhen Society Welfare Centre in southern China says, 'Because Chinese law allows couples to have only one child, everyone wants a good one. Parents do not want to be burdened with a stupid child. .

The One Child Policy is rapidly changing the family system. In the space of two generations there will be no siblings, no cousins, no aunts, no uncles, just in-laws. This too has further knock-on effects. The authorities in China are worried about the implications for society of a generation of spoilt, egotistical children known as 'little emperors . 'The fear is that if a whole generation are brought up as selfish, self-centred, little emperors and empresses the whole socialist system will not survive , says Dr. David Wu, head of the department of anthropology at Hong Kong's Chinese University who has carried out extensive research in China comparing single children to those with siblings.

In the 1980s there was a huge expansion in the number of kindergartens, nurseries and child care centres in an attempt to counteract the indulgence of China's children. In major cities, approximately 90 per cent of three to five year olds now attend kindergarten. In a recent study by Doctor Wu, 31 per cent of Chinese interviewed said the most important thing for children to learn is concern for others, in sharp contrast to 4 per cent in the US and 5 per cent in Japan.

Yet another effect of the policy is the growth in aged population. China is currently faced with the 'echo effect from demographic developments that occurred over twenty years ago. Between 1958 and 1962, the Great Leap Forward occurred, a campaign which was aimed to boost the output of iron and steel. It focused entirely on industrial development at the expense of agricultural production and subsequently resulted in a massive famine in which as many as 30 million people died. The post-famine baby boom that ensued, produced some 90 million births over the following two years. At present only 5 per cent of China's population are over 65 years but the baby boom, coupled with the One Child Policy, could raise this figure to over 25 per cent by 2030, causing a huge retirement bulge.

Government expenditure on support for the elderly, in the form of retirement pensions and medical care, has increased rapidly each year in urban areas but the retirement bulge will cause intense pressures in future. In rural areas, where there is no established pension scheme and parents rely on their children for security, a one-child society will result in too many dependent old and too few working young to fulfil these social obligations.

The One Child Policy has been successful to a large extent. Although the population is not predicted to start falling until the 2030s, important advances have been made in reducing the fertility rate, growth rate and death rates. According to the State Family Planning Commission vice minister, Peng Yu, 25 babies per 1,000 were born in 1970, but the birthrate was reduced to 11 in 1993. In a survey in Peking, 80 per cent of people questioned said they would still prefer two or more children, even though they agreed with government policy. Many families, while not liking the policy, understand the need for it.

The generation of single children who will be coming to procreative age in the next few years will have a very different view from its parents. They have grown up considering single children as the norm. They will desire more than one child much less strongly than their parents and then the following generation, even less so. After a period of a few generations, most families will fully understand and support the One Child Policy.

Yes, there have been a great deal of adverse effects of the policy, but the majority of these stem from the poor status of women in China -- female infanticide and abortion of female foetuses which has subsequently resulted in a disproportion in male and female numbers which has led to a rise in the number of bachelors and in the abduction of women. It is hoped that China's economic progress will bring with it progress for women since a technology-orientated economy has less 'need for males. As views change, the policy will have fewer adverse effects resulting in it being more widely accepted and encountering less opposition. Should not the Chinese government be praised for having the initiative to actually act when confronted with such a population crisis and for having the courage to implement such a controversial but vital policy while other governments would have accepted over-crowding and resource shortages in order to retain popularity and power? Yes, the policy is very severe, but so is the problem.

(Lucinda Richards is a freelance writer. Since her visit to China in 1994 she has carried out extensive research into China's population issue.).

------------------
"The distinction between past, present, and future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion."
--Albert Eistein

 


Posted by Vacuum robot lady from Spaceballs (Member # 239) on :
 
Well, the concept of population control is a good idea, but the methods described above are indeed sickening.

[This message has been edited by Ultra Magnus (edited November 05, 2000).]
 


Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
 
Wow. I knew the problem was bad, but I didn't know it was *this* bad.

------------------
Gore/Lieberman 2000
***
"You still don't understand, do you MacLeod? I am the End of Time!" - Kronos

"You're history!" - MacLeod
***
"I think anybody who doesn't think I'm smart enough to handle the job is underestimating." - George "Dubya" Bush



 


Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
 
Ultra: It's not the methods that are sickening. It's the people's reaction to them. Trying to get people to only have one child per couple is perfectly fine. But when you have a country that's apparently full of sick fucks who kill their own children, or eat Aborted Fetus Stew to help their complexion, things get pretty messed up. It seems to me that this isn't the government's fault at all. It's all those freaks in the populous...

------------------
"Yeah...apparently Sizer is very hard to say, so they replace it with 'Is Mr. Caeser home?'
Sometimes I'll say that no, he has, in fact, passed away.
'My apologies.'
'Oh, that's ok, I'm over it. Brutus is still a wreck though.'
Then I hang up."
-Simon Sizer on telemarketers, 1-Nov-2000
 


Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
 
Its also the culture that says "boy good, girl bad" ... instead of, "baby good"

------------------
Gore/Lieberman 2000
***
"You still don't understand, do you MacLeod? I am the End of Time!" - Kronos

"You're history!" - MacLeod
***
"I think anybody who doesn't think I'm smart enough to handle the job is underestimating." - George "Dubya" Bush



 


Posted by Xentrick (Member # 64) on :
 
Racists! You're just trying to impose your Eurocentric morality on another culture.

 
Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :
 
*looks shiftily around*
*whispers*
I beat Omega to this one!

Yet ANOTHER reason we shouldn't have anything to do with China.

------------------
"Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ty Kwan Leap. Approach me, that you might see." -- The Master



 


Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
 
Oh, relax, we've usually got the same feelings when people kill their child because they want another child of the opposite sex.

And "racism" isn't the term ... ethnocentric, I thinkm would be more correct? Which is more a predjudice applied from one culture to another, and not one race to another.

------------------
Gore/Lieberman 2000
***
"You still don't understand, do you MacLeod? I am the End of Time!" - Kronos

"You're history!" - MacLeod
***
"I think anybody who doesn't think I'm smart enough to handle the job is underestimating." - George "Dubya" Bush



 


Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
 
Oh, I wasn't saying anything about the Chinese as a race in general. Far from it. I mean, look at who posted the topic!

I'm not even trying to make generalizations about the people who are actually in the country of China. Obviously, they can't all be that way.

But, apparently, some (if not most) of them are. And they are the problem. Not the government.

Well, okay, the government is a problem, but not the problem in this particular case.

------------------
"Yeah...apparently Sizer is very hard to say, so they replace it with 'Is Mr. Caeser home?'
Sometimes I'll say that no, he has, in fact, passed away.
'My apologies.'
'Oh, that's ok, I'm over it. Brutus is still a wreck though.'
Then I hang up."
-Simon Sizer on telemarketers, 1-Nov-2000
 


Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
 
*quietly boots First in the head*

Yet another reason why we shouldn't have anything to do with China.

What? No, I'm not repeating anyone...

------------------
Francesca: He was born on the tundra, that's where he belongs. You'll kill him if you take him to Toronto.
Thatcher: That's a bit drastic, don't you think?
Francesca: Look, I've been to Toronto. Trust me, nothing can survive there. - "due South"
 


Posted by Diane (Member # 53) on :
 
Nothing grossed me out as bad as selling fetuses for food. I mean, okay, you can eat monkeys, tigers, dogs, cats, and endangered species, but human?! CANNIBALISM? Now I know the Chinese do eat EVERYTHING.

------------------
"The distinction between past, present, and future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion."
--Albert Eistein

 


Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
 
Well, as we've already had demonstrated in another thread, humans are made of meat. To some cultures, cannibalism is perfectly normal.

Now, the idea of killing someone in order to eat them I have a problem with. But cannibalism itself, while I'd never have the slightest inclination to practice it, isn't something I would call inherently reprehensible, or anything...

------------------
"Yeah...apparently Sizer is very hard to say, so they replace it with 'Is Mr. Caeser home?'
Sometimes I'll say that no, he has, in fact, passed away.
'My apologies.'
'Oh, that's ok, I'm over it. Brutus is still a wreck though.'
Then I hang up."
-Simon Sizer on telemarketers, 1-Nov-2000
 


Posted by Diane (Member # 53) on :
 
That's assuming abortion isn't killing.

You know, this fetus thing comes disturbingly close to the conditions in Jonathan Swift's "A Modest Proposal"...

------------------
"The distinction between past, present, and future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion."
--Albert Eistein

 


Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
 
It certainly is not. Abortion is killing. And I do have a problem w/ the situation presented here. I was only saying that cannibalism, as a concept, isn't really "wrong". Killing someone in order to practice it, though, is.

------------------
"What he did to that walrus gentle-man was inexcusable."
-T. Herman Zweibel on "Mr. Woodrow Wood-pecker", The Onion, 7-Nov-2000
 


Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
 
Well, finally (speaking, FYI, as someone who believes in the woman's right to choose) - something pro-Choicers and pro-Lifers alike can agree on - bomb China!

Seriously, though - this is a very interesting article. I'd often wondered how successful the One Child measures actually were, but I've never dreamed that all this other shit would be going on as a result. And it could get worse - I wonder, if some company came up with a guaranteed cheap way to control your baby's gender, it'd probably not be allowed in the Western world; but could we stop it being marketed in China? In fact, should we? I foresaw a long time ago that any such technology would lead to women becoming valuable - but as commodities, resulting in gender slavery.

Xentrick gets right to the point. We can't judge them for things that seem all right in their culture. If there are some moral/ethical values that transcend race or religion, what do you do when most of them are actually being broken by the Chinese? I mean, cannibalism? In this day and age?

One question the article raised - we know some of those non-Han ethnic groups are routinely (and semi-officially, if not wholeheartedly endorsed by the State) persecuted; how is the fact that they're exempt from one famil-one child rules affaecting that?

------------------
"I do prefer the arse, but you can't dismiss the leg. They're joined at the hip, so to speak."

- Liam Kavanagh

 


Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :
 
>"Xentrick gets right to the point. We can't judge them for things that seem all right in their culture."

Who says we can't?

Even the Federation only opens its doors to certain cultures.

------------------
"Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ty Kwan Leap. Approach me, that you might see." -- The Master



 


Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
 
Yeah, but if you're gonna base your morals on those of a pulp sci-fi American hack screenwriter's idea of a perfect society, after it's been filtered through 30 years of corporate censorship, then I'd say you need a refresher course in reality. Unless that was meant to be a joke. . . please tell me it was meant to be a joke?

------------------
"I do prefer the arse, but you can't dismiss the leg. They're joined at the hip, so to speak."

- Liam Kavanagh

 


Posted by Diane (Member # 53) on :
 
"We can't judge them for things that seem all right in their culture."

There are things in different cultures that we shouldn't judge, like eating bugs. But there's a LINE between cultural and universal ethics, and there is something definitely wrong when people are killed as a direct or indirect result of someone's actions. Do you really believe the abortion gangs are doing what's "all right" in Chinese culture? That it's okay to kill female infants because they're economically worthless? The men who force women to abort are COWARDS, you know, not cultural crusaders. They're too afraid to stand up to the government, so they pick on the easy prey, which happens to be women.

------------------
"The distinction between past, present, and future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion."
--Albert Eistein

 


Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :
 
Vogon: Go to your dictionary.
There? Okay, look up ANALOGY. Here's a hint, it ain't the study of your arse.

------------------
"Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ty Kwan Leap. Approach me, that you might see." -- The Master



 


Posted by Teelie (Member # 280) on :
 
I don't know if this is true, but I have heard that they do some abortions by sticking a hypodermic needle full of formaldehyde into the baby's brain as it's being born. Whether abortion is murder or not, I don't know, but doing that is!
If it's true, then China is real fucked up.

------------------
"The Web brings people together because no matter what kind of a twisted sexual mutant you happen to be, you've got millions of pals out there. Type in 'Find people that have sex with goats that are on fire' and the computer will ask, 'Specify type of goat.'"
 


Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
 
Bugger analogies.

Lighten up, Firsty. It's just that you were almost implying that China is evil because they wouldn't get admitted to the Federation. And then you're on to "humans are Americans, and Vulcans are Brits..." (although I DO wonder what us Aussies would be under that system)

Anyway, where were we? Evil chinese baby killers, right? Now, y'see, I don't know much about Chinese culture. Get on all right with the folks down at the local takeaway, but that's as far as it goes. All I wanted to do was head off judgment on things like the eating of bugs, as Tora said.

What I think is the problem over there is the devaluing of the individual. The State feels there should be less people, and they introduce all these measures that the rest of the world might one day need to have a crack at. But they don't give a monkeys how these measures affect the common man, it don't feature in their plans. The bosses in Beijing don't have to see orphanages full of abandoned babies. I doubt they have any probs getting women on demand. Its not like the changing family model is gonna lead to increased dissatisfaction which will cost them the nexy election because, whoops, they don't have 'em. All these things could happen anywhere, given a government with a certain amount of totalitarianism. Now you folks have elected that feller Bush, ya might find that out yourselves.

TLE: they could do that anywhere in the world. Prolly do, too. Start saying "oh, only the Chinese would do that" and your back to what Xentric said.

------------------
"I do prefer the arse, but you can't dismiss the leg. They're joined at the hip, so to speak."

- Liam Kavanagh

 


Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :
 
"All these things could happen anywhere, given a government with a certain amount of totalitarianism. Now you folks have elected that feller Bush, ya might find that out yourselves."

Bush, the guy for smaller government (and against abortion, for that matter)?

------------------
Frank's Home Page
"Gardening for Dummies is too intense." - Rick
 


Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :
 
"All these things could happen anywhere, given a government with a certain amount of totalitarianism. Now you folks have elected that feller Bush, ya might find that out yourselves."

Thy logic is in abeyance.

If anything, Gore is the totalitarianist, with his designs on social engineering and the great expansion of government and intrusion of government into all facets of life and so-called "targeted" (read: 'discriminatory') tax cuts.

------------------
"Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ty Kwan Leap. Approach me, that you might see." -- The Master



 


Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
 
Well, China does need fewer people. And if someone abandons their child, or kills it, or buys/sells women as a commodity, it's the fault of those individuals, and they should be punished, not the government.

Which isn't to say the government shouldn't be punished at all. They should. Just not on this particular principle.

------------------
"What he did to that walrus gentle-man was inexcusable."
-T. Herman Zweibel on "Mr. Woodrow Wood-pecker", The Onion, 7-Nov-2000
 


Posted by Diane (Member # 53) on :
 
It's the government's job to punish those individuals, but what do you do when the government turns a blind eye?

------------------
"The distinction between past, present, and future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion."
--Albert Eistein

 


Posted by USS Vanguard (Member # 130) on :
 
Well what will happen in a few hundred years in Europe or America, won't the population growth there cause pretty much the same problem (unless of course we're living on the moon). If anything, what's happening in China may be a frightining loook into our future (remeber Soylent Green?)

------------------
"Life sucks, then you die"


 


Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
 
Diane: Ah... There's a point. If the government isn't doing anything to punish these people, then, yes, that is the gov't's fault...

------------------
"What he did to that walrus gentle-man was inexcusable."
-T. Herman Zweibel on "Mr. Woodrow Wood-pecker", The Onion, 7-Nov-2000
 


Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
 
The population in Europe is on the verge of declining, with some nations already sitting near zero population growth, and a few already in negative percentages. Because I have shockingly little to do with my time, I made a little list, which we shall now see, assuming it isn't mutilated beyond recognition. (Edit: Which, of course, it was. Bah and double bah! One more time then, now with new and improved HTMLizing from our very own TSN. Let's give him a hand, folks.)

NationGrowth rate
(in percentages)
Bosnia & Herzegovina3.1
San Marino1.49
Luxembourg1.27
Andorra1.22
Ireland1.16
Vatican City1.15
Liechtenstein1.02
Croatia.93
Serbia.739
Iceland.57
Netherlands.57
Norway.5
Monaco.48
France.38
Denmark.31
Switzerland.3
Germany.29
Albania.26
Austria.25
United Kingdom.25
Greece.21
Belgium.18
Portugal.18
Finland.17
Slovakia .12
Slovenia.12
Spain .11
Italy.09
Sweden.02
Moldova0
Poland-.04
Czech Republic-.08
Belarus-.17
Romania-.21
Lithuania-.29
Hungary-.33
Estonia-.59
Ukraine-.83
Bulgaria-1.16
Montenegro-12.22

A quick and dirty bit of averaging gives an overall growth rate for Europe of 1.519% or so. Far from the rate necessary for bringing Charleton Heston in to clean things up.

------------------
love's function is to fabricate unknownnness
--
E. E. Cummings
****
Read chapter one of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! And party everyday.


[This message has been edited by Sol System (edited November 10, 2000).]

[ Okay, so I screwed up the table. How was I to know it wouldn't accept unclosed TH and TD tags?! ]

[ addendum the second: I don't know why there's a huge gap there. I guess we know how to make spoiler space, now. Just use a table! *rolls eyes* ]

[ Number Three: Okay, the infinitely wise Guru Capps has informed me of the proper way to do a table in a post (here's a hint: don't hit "enter" unless you really mean it), so it ought to be better now. I hope... ]

[This message has been edited by Charles Capps (edited November 10, 2000).]

[ Fourth and final appendix: The UBB has a weird, er... thing about it that was still screwing up ever so slightly. But CC's fixed it. And Sol feels special. That is all. ]

[This message has been edited by TSN (edited November 10, 2000).]
 


Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
 
I surrender.

------------------
love's function is to fabricate unknownnness
--
E. E. Cummings
****
Read chapter one of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! And party everyday.

 


Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
 
Wow. I'm totally blinded with science there.

But am I the only one intrigued by the fact that the VATICAN has the sixth-highest population growth?

------------------
"I do prefer the arse, but you can't dismiss the leg. They're joined at the hip, so to speak."

- Liam Kavanagh

 


Posted by USS Vanguard (Member # 130) on :
 
Sol, I stand corrected. But wouldn't it be nice if Heston DID come and save us.

"ITS PEOPLE!!"

------------------
"Life sucks, then you die"


 


Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
 
What's the population growth of the US and Canada, just out of interest?

ANd I vaguely remember hearing a statistic that by the year, er, 2020 (or something), 1% of US citizens will be retired. That's a lot of people barging you out of the way at the post office...

------------------
"If every vampire who said he was at the Crucifixion was actually there it would've been like Woodstock. I was at Woodstock. I fed off a flower person and I spent six hours watching my hand move." - Spike, BtVS
 


Posted by Vacuum robot lady from Spaceballs (Member # 239) on :
 
I Imagine ours is quite high. It gets quite cold here, and we are the manufacturers of the finest beers in the world, so in combination, the drunken horny inuit would bring our growth rate up quite a bit.

------------------
Communism. The most socialist of all the 'ism's. It's in you to vote.

Please vote for the Communist Party of Canada This November 27th.
 


Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
 
"we [Canada] are the manufacturers of the finest beers in the world"

BWAHAHAHAHA!

Oh, that was priceless. The only less believable and true thing you could have said was that Omega is going to be the centrefold in January's Playboy.

------------------
"If every vampire who said he was at the Crucifixion was actually there it would've been like Woodstock. I was at Woodstock. I fed off a flower person and I spent six hours watching my hand move." - Spike, BtVS
 


Posted by Vacuum robot lady from Spaceballs (Member # 239) on :
 
Well, I actually wouldn't know. But I'm going by our commericals, and man, I'll tell ya, those guys are having a lot of fun.

Especially drinkers of Ex. With all their Sex and all.

------------------
Communism. Who wouldn't like their neighbour thrown into a goulag?

Please vote for the Communist Party of Canada This November 27th.

 


Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
 
"The only less believable and true thing you could have said was that Omega is going to be the centrefold in January's Playboy."

Now I may not know much about porn, but I'm pretty sure that you wouldn't make the cut for being a playmate, either...

------------------
Francesca: He was born on the tundra, that's where he belongs. You'll kill him if you take him to Toronto.
Thatcher: That's a bit drastic, don't you think?
Francesca: Look, I've been to Toronto. Trust me, nothing can survive there. - "due South"

 


Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
 
::pictures Omega and Ultra in Playboy::

::runs screaming away from computer::

"WHERE ALL DA NAKED GIRLS AT?!?!?!?!"

------------------
Gore/Lieberman 2000
***
"You still don't understand, do you MacLeod? I am the End of Time!" - Kronos

"You're history!" - MacLeod
***
"I think anybody who doesn't think I'm smart enough to handle the job is underestimating." - George "Dubya" Bush


 


Posted by Vacuum robot lady from Spaceballs (Member # 239) on :
 
Why are you picturing ME?

I do believe you made a Freudian slip there, m'boy.

Not that it's a problem. Really.

------------------
Communism. Who wouldn't like their neighbour thrown into a goulag?

Please vote for the Communist Party of Canada This November 27th.

 


Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
 
*tries picturing a centrefold of a giant blue and red car carrier*

Nope, can't do it.

(BTW, shouldn't you have upgraded to God Magnus by now? He's cool, he's Japanese, he has ridiculously long legs. He's a perfect match for you, UM )

------------------
"If every vampire who said he was at the Crucifixion was actually there it would've been like Woodstock. I was at Woodstock. I fed off a flower person and I spent six hours watching my hand move." - Spike, BtVS

[This message has been edited by PsyLiam (edited November 11, 2000).]
 


Posted by Vacuum robot lady from Spaceballs (Member # 239) on :
 
Holy fuck does that rock.

I need to move me to Japan.

What's 4980 JPY in a real currency?

------------------
Communism. Who wouldn't like their neighbour thrown into a goulag?

Please vote for the Communist Party of Canada This November 27th.

 


Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
 
At today's rates, $USD 46.3730.

------------------
"Omigod. Singing meat. This is altogether too much."

 


Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
 
I usually get my stuff from BigBadToys, but that's because they deliever to the UK, and because someone recommended them. You live closer to the US, so you'll probably be able to get one cheaper. They charge about $70.

You should pick up Fire Convoy too, so you can do the funky combining thing, and have a Transformer so cool, attractive and nubile girls will want to have sex with you pretty much every day for the rest of your life. I've already got Fire Convoy, but it's not enough. They keep saying "soon Liam, soon. When you've got a toy that can scream out 'CH� KYODAI-GATTAI, GOD FIRE CONVOY!' is a Japanese accent, then I'll show you my hidden forest of pleasure. But not before."

------------------
"If every vampire who said he was at the Crucifixion was actually there it would've been like Woodstock. I was at Woodstock. I fed off a flower person and I spent six hours watching my hand move." - Spike, BtVS

[This message has been edited by PsyLiam (edited November 14, 2000).]
 


Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
 
No tables this time.

For Canada: 1.02%
For the United States of America: .91%
And while we're doing North America,
For the United Mexican States: 1.53%

------------------
love's function is to fabricate unknownnness
--
E. E. Cummings
****
Read chapter one of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! And party everyday.

 


Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
 
Out of ten active threads in the Flameboard currently, this is the only one not about the US presidential election... :-)

------------------
"What he did to that walrus gentle-man was inexcusable."
-T. Herman Zweibel on "Mr. Woodrow Wood-pecker", The Onion, 7-Nov-2000
 


Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
 
Well, I wanted to keep the pornography one going...

I could always start a thread on who's the most dashing moderator. But I'd win that, so there would be little point. Howsabout a thread entirely devoted to women's breasts?

------------------
"If every vampire who said he was at the Crucifixion was actually there it would've been like Woodstock. I was at Woodstock. I fed off a flower person and I spent six hours watching my hand move." - Spike, BtVS
 


Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
 
So, what would that be? Basically just a log of most of the male population's thoughts all day? *L*

------------------
"What he did to that walrus gentle-man was inexcusable."
-T. Herman Zweibel on "Mr. Woodrow Wood-pecker", The Onion, 7-Nov-2000
 


Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :
 
Not mine. My thoughts only give cursory notice to the breasts. There's other bits that are FAR more important. ASK them.

------------------
"Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ty Kwan Leap. Approach me, that you might see." -- The Master



 


Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
 
Go BASS ALE!

Go BASS ALE!

Go CiderJack!

Go CiderJack!

Go Milwaukee's Best! Er, wait, EWWWWW!!!!

------------------
Star Trek Gamma Quadrant

Continuing to boldly go ...



 


Posted by Diane (Member # 53) on :
 
Hey, I know about population stuff, too! Environmental Studies comes in handy sometimes! (Not to mention I came across this article while researching for a paper in that class)

Population growth is not that important, believe it or not. It's total fertility rate (how many children a woman has in her reproductive lifetime) that counts. And that number is on the decline worldwide--people around the world are having fewer kids regardless of economic situation. What's causing the population "explosion" is the low death rate resulting from advanced medical technology, but in fact, most developed countries have birth rates at below replacement. The population trend goes like this: high birth/high death-->high birth/low death (which we're going through)-->low birth/low death. It is projected that we may reach the low birth/low death equilibrium in about 50 years. I'll post some fertility rate figures when I get home.

------------------
"The distinction between past, present, and future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion."
--Albert Eistein

 


Posted by Diane (Member # 53) on :
 
2000 population statistics brought to you by the Population Reference Bureau:

I've got stuff like total population, births per 1000, deaths per 1000, natural increase, doubling time, projected population, infant mortality rate, total fertility rate, life expectancy, percent in urban area, percent with aids, percent of married women using contraception, GNP per capita, and other good stuff. I'll just post a couple here.

The first number is natural increase (annual, %) and the second number is total fertility rate (2.1 is zero growth).

World: 1.4%, 2.9
More developed: 0.1%, 1.5
Less developed: 1.7%, 3.2
Less dev.(excl. China): 1.9%, 3.7
Africa: 2.4%, 5.3
North America: 0.6%, 2.0
Canada: 0.4%, 1.5
United States: 0.6%, 2.1
Latin America: 2.1%, 3.1
Oceania: 1.1%, 2.4
Australia: 0.6%, 1.7
Asia: 1.4%, 2.8
Asia(excl. China): 1.7%, 3.3
China: 0.9%, 1.8
Europe: -0.1%, 1.4
United Kingdom: 0.1%, 1.7
France: 0.3%, 1.8
Italy: -0.1%, 1.2

One interesting note, the percentage of women using contraception in Italy is 91% for all methods and 56% for modern methods.

I can post more countries if anyone wants to see.

------------------
"The distinction between past, present, and future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion."
--Albert Eistein

 


Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
 
Wait ... hold on ...

Since when is North America a country?

------------------
Star Trek Gamma Quadrant

Continuing to boldly go ...


 


Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
 
"My thoughts only give cursory notice to the breasts. There's other bits that are FAR more important. ASK them."

We're suppossed to talk to the bottom? I can't imagine that'll get much of a response.

------------------
"If every vampire who said he was at the Crucifixion was actually there it would've been like Woodstock. I was at Woodstock. I fed off a flower person and I spent six hours watching my hand move." - Spike, BtVS
 


Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :
 
*smacks Liam* Ask the WOMEN.

------------------
"Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ty Kwan Leap. Approach me, that you might see." -- The Master



 


Posted by Diane (Member # 53) on :
 
JK: Nobody said it was. Notice I posted figures for all the continents and the world.

------------------
"The distinction between past, present, and future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion."
--Albert Eistein


 


Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
 
Why would I talk to the woman? She'd only talk back.

------------------
"If every vampire who said he was at the Crucifixion was actually there it would've been like Woodstock. I was at Woodstock. I fed off a flower person and I spent six hours watching my hand move." - Spike, BtVS
 


Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
 
What? Asia's not a country? Since when? Argh, neither is Africa? Oh - my - god!

LOL. You're right, Ziyal, my bad =(

------------------
The Dominion has been defeated, but the hardest job will be building the peace ...

Join Cpt. Connor H. Macy and the crew of the USS Tokyo as they attempt to forge the bonds of trust ...

Star Trek Gamma Quadrant


 




© 1999-2024 Charles Capps

Powered by UBB.classic™ 6.7.3