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"Omega is right."
-Jeff Karrde, March 18, 2001 08:47 PM
"Thou shalt not commit murder"
when combined with
"Go slaughter every human being in this entire city."
I don't care if they were heathens, I don't care if it was war, you CANNOT call the wholesale extermination of EVERY human life, young and old, ANYTHING but murder and genocide.
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The government that seems the most unwise, oft goodness to the people best supplies. That which is meddling, touching everything, will work but ill, and disappointment bring. - The Tao Te Ching
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"Omega is right."
-Jeff Karrde, March 18, 2001 08:47 PM
From a slightly more diplomatic viewpoint, consider this. As there is no proof of a god, no matter how religious you are, and no matter how strong your faith is, you can't be sure that there exists a god. So if someone slaughters people in the name of a god, there is, even from your viewpoint, a possibility that they doing so wrongfully, which is a travesty.
So let me put this to you. If there is an all-powerful god who wants a race destroyed, why doesn't he do it himself? If you have faith in your god, let it look after the punishment. You may reply with something like "But God doesn't actively control the world, he just sets the ball rolling" or something like that, to which I would reply:
1. Why?
2. If there is an afterlife, why doesn't God punish them then?
I'm sorry but there are just too many holes and contradictions in the Bible, (and every other aspect of the religion) to continue this without realizing that I am wasting my time.
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"If you can't beat your computer at chess, try kickboxing."
How, pray tell, does ordering the killing of an already-born child, but still a child, differ?
Not willing to justify infanticide?
Then either your position is wrong,
Or God sometimes tells people to do immoral things.
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The government that seems the most unwise, oft goodness to the people best supplies. That which is meddling, touching everything, will work but ill, and disappointment bring. - The Tao Te Ching
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Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 8.32 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux (with seven eps posted)
***
"Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!"
-Omega 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001
***
"I think this reason why girls don't do well on multiple choice tests goes all the way back to the Bible, all the way back to Genesis, Adam and Eve. God said, 'All right, Eve, multiple choice or multiple orgasms, what's it going to be?' We all know what was chosen" - Rush Limbaugh, Feb. 23, 1994.
Now to quote Inherit the Wind: The Bible is a book. A good book. But it is not the only book.
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"In a completely unrelated news story, I have a date tomorrow night."
- Omega, in trying to explain why pigs are now flying, why Microsoft products are now working perfectly, hell freezing over, and George W Bush giving a flawless speech. 04/06/01, 12:17AM
[This message has been edited by Tahna Los (edited April 27, 2001).]
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"Although, from what I understand, having travelled around the Mid-west quite a bit, apparently Jesus is coming, so I guess the choice now is we should decide whether we should spit or swallow."
-Maynard James Keenan
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Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 8.32 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux (with seven eps posted)
***
"Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!"
-Omega 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001
***
"I think this reason why girls don't do well on multiple choice tests goes all the way back to the Bible, all the way back to Genesis, Adam and Eve. God said, 'All right, Eve, multiple choice or multiple orgasms, what's it going to be?' We all know what was chosen" - Rush Limbaugh, Feb. 23, 1994.
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What is the difference between a terriorist and your girlfriend?
- With terrorist, there is a chance of negotiation.
Yahweh told Abraham to kill his son (Ishmael, not Isaac)
No, it was Isaac. Ishmael was gone by this point.
Rob:
How, pray tell, does ordering the killing of an already-born child, but still a child, differ?
Because God orders it, and it is therefore by definition moral. You can't know the possible futures. God, being omniscient, can.
So... any REAL contradictions in the Bible?
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"Omega is right."
-Jeff Karrde, March 18, 2001 08:47 PM
But then, the Angel of Death 'vass only followink orders, ya?'
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The government that seems the most unwise, oft goodness to the people best supplies. That which is meddling, touching everything, will work but ill, and disappointment bring. - The Tao Te Ching
OOH, but that's a very VERY slippery slope one opens up when one buys into THAT explanation...
Hey, what if God tells me (Or I THINK or CLAIM Got tells me) to take you out with a bazooka? That makes it moral?
Listen, just because some kook claims God is telling him something doesn't mean that God is. Just because the people who wrote the history or told the story CLAIMED God was on their side doesn't mean He was. More likely they were using God to justify anything they did.
In fact, I think there was some great dictator or mass murder who frequently said "God is on our side" but I can't remember who it was.
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The government that seems the most unwise, oft goodness to the people best supplies. That which is meddling, touching everything, will work but ill, and disappointment bring. - The Tao Te Ching
Well FUCK, man!! What the fuck am I payin' this goddamned lawyer for?!?
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"I'm beginning to think that there'll be NO forced mating at ALL!" --Professor Hubert T. Farnsworth
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Signatures are for losers
However, I do have one...
After Cain slew Able and was zapped by God and then sent into exile, he went to go live with the nomads of that area. He then married into that tribe and begat children from his wife(s).
Question: If Adam & Eve (And later on Cain & Able) were the only people on Earth at the time, where did the NOMADS come from?
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In this crazy world of lemons, baby...you're lemonade!
Says what verse? The Bible says nothign about nomads, as I recall. All we know is that he left. As for his kids, I'd bet he took a sister with him. Then there's the fact that he probably lived several centuries, what with no one being able to kill him. IIRC, he may very well not have had kids until he was six hundred years old, and thus could have married a twenty year old eighth-great-niece once the world was thoroughly populated.
As for the point of this excercize, it's for me to show that there are no contradictions in the Bible, as some of you you claim there to be. I'm waiting for one that's actually a problem to refute. Come on, Rob, you can do better than this.
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"Omega is right."
-Jeff Karrde, March 18, 2001 08:47 PM
*offcially boycotts this topic, advises others to do the same*
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In this crazy world of lemons, baby...you're lemonade!
Some elements of the passion occur in a different order in the various Gospels, too.
And there's the entire mess with the double creation story in Genesis 1 and 2 which some people consider contradictory.
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"I can be creative when I have a good idea. That just happens way too rarely."
-Omega, April 6
When even the most scatterbrained theory fails you, you fall back on metaphor (Oh, the Bible is literally true, except for the parts that don't make sense when they're taken literally, and those are metaphor, which is why when Jesus said that the end would come within his listener's lifetimes, and it didn't, he meant metaphorically) and expect the rational world to go along with that claptrap.
And when all else fails, you fall back on the 'concept' of Infallibility and Miracles, once again unverifiable, to explain away even the parts of the Bibble that violate established physics (The Sun can't hold still in the sky, but the Bibble says it did, so God musta performed a couple dozen miracles having to do with the Earth's rotation, centripetal force, and the gravitational constant of the universe that morning.)
If you cannot allow REASON to rule your arguments, you will never be more than an irritant.
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The government that seems the most unwise, oft goodness to the people best supplies. That which is meddling, touching everything, will work but ill, and disappointment bring. - The Tao Te Ching
You can't 'show' that there are no contradictions in the Bible.
This is true. Perhaps I should restate my aims. I intend to show that no one can demonstrate a contradiction in the Bible.
Jesus said that the end would come within his listener's lifetimes
That's not what he said. He said "the Kingdom" would come (IIRC; I don't have my Bible in front of me at this exact second).
I'm looking for INTERNAL contradictions, here, people. Contradictions with what you know of nature don't count, for obvious reasons.
Tom:
I think Tim brought up the differences in the geneologies of Jesus between Gospels a while ago.
And I beat the snot out of it. There are two genealogies because Jesus had two parents (at least, from the POV of the people Matthew was writing to).
Some elements of the passion occur in a different order in the various Gospels, too.
Yes, but none expressly contradictory. We went through that quite a while back, too.
And there's the entire mess with the double creation story in Genesis 1 and 2 which some people consider contradictory.
I'm not familiar with the specific problem to which you are refering. Please clarify.
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"Omega is right."
-Jeff Karrde, March 18, 2001 08:47 PM
Go read "Ishmael" by Daniel Quinn. You'll see the story for what it really is.
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"I'm beginning to think that there'll be NO forced mating at ALL!" --Professor Hubert T. Farnsworth
Obviously, because the Lord has decreed it so. Or Metaphored it so. Because the Jack van Impe said so. because 1 000 000 Huntley Street said so. Because the Bible said so. Because they tell us everything. Every answer. Every question, it makes no difference. As long as someone tells me. I need to be told.
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"Instructed by history and reflection, Julian was persuaded that, if the diseases of the body may sometimes be cured by salutary violence, neither steel nor fire can eradicate the erroneous opinions of the mind."
-Edward Gibbons, The Decline and Fall of The Roman Empire.
Who says there wasn't incest? As for genetic deterioration, I don't see why that would have to be a problem. Yeah, you'd start out with a guy marrying his sister, but then you'd have first cousins, then second cousins, and so forth. Only persistant inbreeding causes major problems.
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"Omega is right."
-Jeff Karrde, March 18, 2001 08:47 PM
That is NOT the case with the whole Adam and Eve thing. Therefore, by about the third or fourth generation, the population of the world would consist of mentally and physically handicapped people.
So, "How does the Bible not contradict itself?"
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Ace
"Objects in mirror are closer than they appear."
[This message has been edited by Ace (edited April 27, 2001).]
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"Omega is right."
-Jeff Karrde, March 18, 2001 08:47 PM
----------------------------------
Signatures are for losers
[This message has been edited by USS Vanguard (edited April 28, 2001).]
[This message has been edited by USS Vanguard (edited April 28, 2001).]
Well, I guess that's acutally two questions. Whatever.
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It doesn't matter if you don't know what you're doing as long as you look good doing it.
[This message has been edited by fructose1 (edited April 28, 2001).]
Omega: You realize you're a dumbshit, right? As has been mentioned, I pointed out previously the whole Jesus-pedigree problem. You want people to find contradictions, but, when someone says "This is contradictory", you just say "No it isn't", and that's supposed to be valid?
The Matthew and Luke gospels give two different genealogies. Both claim to be through Joseph. You can't just say "Well, they meant to say 'Mary' in this one". If that's the case, no matter what anyone points out, you'll just say "Well, what they really meant to say is this...".
How about if we point out that Revelations mentions things like the "one thousand years" deal, even though 1000 years are long up? You'll claim "Well, that's just symbolism". Couldn't we then say that, in the entire rest of the bible, Yahweh himself is nothing but symbolic?
How can you claim that one thing is meant literally and another is not? How can you claim that the word "Joseph" actually means the word "Mary"? You didn't write these things. You have no idea what the authors meant. You simply reinterpret it to suit your own purposes. That's called "self-delusion".
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"Although, from what I understand, having travelled around the Mid-west quite a bit, apparently Jesus is coming, so I guess the choice now is we should decide whether we should spit or swallow."
-Maynard James Keenan
God gave the Hebrews the commandments because they were the best way of keeping them safe. It's a matter of maturity. They were effectively two year olds. You know, "Don't lie, or daddy'll spank you."
Tim:
How about if we point out that Revelations mentions things like the "one thousand years" deal, even though 1000 years are long up?
1000 years FROM THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST. I'm pretty darned sure that he's not showed up, yet.
The Matthew and Luke gospels give two different genealogies. Both claim to be through Joseph.
They would. You have to understand the culture of the day. Matthew, writing to the Jews, would list the genealogy of Joseph, with a touch of Hebrew poetry thrown in. Luke, writing to the Greeks, and being a doctor, would list the genealogy of Mary. His writing style indicates that he'd do that: be as exact as possible. HOWEVER, he only lists males. Certainly there weren't only male biological relatives going up all the way to David. He listed HUSBANDS names as generations. Thus, he would have listed Joseph, not Mary.
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"How do you define fool?"
"I don't attempt it. I wait for demonstrations. They inevitably surpass my imagination."
- CJ Cherryh, Invader
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Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 8.32 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux (with seven eps posted)
***
"Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!"
-Omega 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001
***
"I think this reason why girls don't do well on multiple choice tests goes all the way back to the Bible, all the way back to Genesis, Adam and Eve. God said, 'All right, Eve, multiple choice or multiple orgasms, what's it going to be?' We all know what was chosen" - Rush Limbaugh, Feb. 23, 1994.
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"Well if it's gonna be that kind of a party, I'm putting my dick in the mashed potatoes!"
-Nimrod 16/4/2001
Excuse me, but before we start bandying about terms like 'moral killing' and so on, shouldn't we first define 'moral'? A statement containing an undefined term tells one precisely nothing.
Still waiting for an internal contradiction...
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"How do you define fool?"
"I don't attempt it. I wait for demonstrations. They inevitably surpass my imagination."
- CJ Cherryh, Invader
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Signatures are for losers
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Signatures are for losers
But, If I had a time machine, I would gladly use it to take out Hitler.
to quote Spock, "The needs of the many out-weight the needs of a few"...
and in this case, we're talking about the lifes of couple millions against the life of one!
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What is the difference between a terriorist and your girlfriend?
- With terrorist, there is a chance of negotiation.
------------------
Signatures are for losers
"And besides, the Excellency of Israel will not prove false, and He will NOT FEEL REGRETS, for He is not an earthling man so as to feel regrets" - 1 Samuel 15:29
"As for the Lord, he REGRETTED that he had made Saul king over Israel" - 1 Samuel 15:35
Sins of the Father?
"Fathers should not be put to death on account of children, and children should not be put to death on account of fathers. Each one should be put to death for his own sin" - Deuteronomy 24:16
"....because I the Lord your God am a God exacting exclusive devotion, bringing punishment for the error of father upon sons" - Exodus 20:5
Rightousness?
"Little children, let no one mislead you, he who carries on righteousness is righteous, just as that one is righteous." - 1 John 3:7
"Just as it is written: There is not one righteous man, not even one." - Romans 3:10
Calling on the name of Christ
"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" - Romans 10:13
"Not every one that say unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven" - Matthew 7:21
The Trinity
"I and my Father are one" - John 10:30
"I came from God and now I am here. I have not come on my own; but he has sent me" - John 8:42
You may be able to refute one, or many, but all? Please do try.
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"A mass of tears have been transformed to stones now, sharpened on suffering and woven into slings"
Zack de la Rocha
Rage Against the Machine
"Luke, writing to the Greeks, and being a doctor, would list the genealogy of Mary. His writing style indicates that he'd do that: be as exact as possible. HOWEVER, he only lists males. Certainly there weren't only male biological relatives going up all the way to David. He listed HUSBANDS names as generations."
Well, regardless of what the bible does, you certainly contradict yourself. How can he be exact as possible, while listing men's names where their wives names should be?
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"Although, from what I understand, having travelled around the Mid-west quite a bit, apparently Jesus is coming, so I guess the choice now is we should decide whether we should spit or swallow."
-Maynard James Keenan
------------------
What is the difference between a terriorist and your girlfriend?
- With terrorist, there is a chance of negotiation.
Archaelogical evidence "has wiped out the historical credibility of the conquest of Ai as reported in Joshue 7-8" - Biblical Archaeology Review, November/December 1988 p. 24
Daniel says that when Belshazzar was killed, Darius ascended the thrown. Yet, history shows us it was Cyrus the Great.
The Joshua account about the sun. How come no other record mentions this?
Deuteronomy 14:11-18 tells us bats are birds.
For more internal contradictions, how about the census in Ezra 2? Or in Nehemiah 7? As Thomas Paine once said about these verse "What certainty, then, can there be in the bible for anything?" Which is the problem with the Bible, you need PERFECT accuracy to say it is the Inspired Word of God.
Matthew 2:16 talks about Herod's order to kill all the male children in Bethlehem who were 2 and younger. Yet, no where else is this mentioned (not just in the Bible, even among ancient historians of Herod).
Pretty much all the miracles which occurred during the death of Christ are not reported ANYWHERE else in the world. A crowd of dead saints come to life and no one, not even Philo-Judaeus who lived in Jerusalem at the time, see fit to mention this? Or did god make sure they didn't mention it so that the Bible would seem more miraculous?
The New Testament itself was not cannonized until 405 CE! Books attributed to Mary Magdalene, Thomas, Paul, Andrew, Bart, Judas Iscariot, and Pilate are excluded. In the days of the early Church, many Church writers quoted these noncanonical books, yet now...?
No one even knows about the canonization of the Old Testament. Most are considered anonymous by scholars, for a reason. The Pentatauch is attributed to Moses, yet, it contains an account of his death and burial? What the hell?! Not to mention cities and regions that Moses supposedly mentions were not named until centuries after the death of Moses.
You, as a Protestant, don't accept many of the books that the Catholic Church does. The Greek Orthodox Church, for example, includes the Prayer of MAnasseh, Plasm 151 and 3 Macabees!
Mark 16:9-20 do not appear in any of the early copies of this gospel. These forged verses are the only post-resurrection appearances of Jesus in Mark.
1 John 5:7 (which I bet is in your Bible) did not appear in 1 John until the FOURTHEENTH CENTURY! It is missing from all early Greek manuscripts and from the fifth century Latin Vulgate translation.
The New Testament is in GREEK! Jesus spoke Aramaic. Thus, all his words are translated. Do you trust the translators?
We have no original documents. Most of the complete gospels we have are fourth century documents. Copies of copies.
Maybe I'd like to base my life on something other than a single book. Perhaps logic.
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"A mass of tears have been transformed to stones now, sharpened on suffering and woven into slings"
Zack de la Rocha
Rage Against the Machine
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Re: Russia in WWII
"Hey, we butchered Poles! Thats OK."
- DT.
If Hitler had been eliminated, many other things could've gone very, very wrong. Of course, we can speculate all we want...
As for faith, I don't know where I stand. I used to believe, but in the early teens I forgot it at some point.
But I don't want to pass judgement on either side. If I've done so earlier, I'm sorry.
The bible has many good things in it, but also other things that were tailored for the times they were written.
Why Omega wants to debate every single objection people can muster against the bible is beyond me. Nothing good comes out of that. If people "tick you off", as you put it, buy a sandbag. It'd do you a lot of good.
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Don't kill me, I'm charming!
I am curious, since you are the (self) proclaimed debater here, why you would take up this to debate, when some of you retorts have been, 'Because God said it was okay it was moral...'.
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"One's ethics are determined by what we do when no one is looking" Nugget
Star Trek: Gamma Quadrant
Star Trek: Legacy
Read them, rate them, got money, film them
"...and I remain on the far side of crazy, I remain the mortal enemy of man, no hundred dollar cure will save me..." WoV
Has something happened in the real worl that has shaken your belief system???
No, I just got ticked off with people making statements that they did not, and apparently CAN not, back up.
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"How do you define fool?"
"I don't attempt it. I wait for demonstrations. They inevitably surpass my imagination."
- CJ Cherryh, Invader
I can see them there. Can anyone else?
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You know, when Comedy Central asked us to do a Thanksgiving episode, the first thought that went through my mind was, "Boy, I'd like to have sex with Jennifer Aniston."
-Trey Parker, co-creator of South Park
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"Well if it's gonna be that kind of a party, I'm putting my dick in the mashed potatoes!"
-Nimrod 16/4/2001
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"A mass of tears have been transformed to stones now, sharpened on suffering and woven into slings"
Zack de la Rocha
Rage Against the Machine
------------------
"How do you define fool?"
"I don't attempt it. I wait for demonstrations. They inevitably surpass my imagination."
- CJ Cherryh, Invader
[This message has been edited by Omega (edited April 29, 2001).]
Let's start with the beginning: There are two version of the creation of humans. One in which Adam and Eve were created together and equally, the other in which Eve came from Adam's rib.
Oh, and I don't think God created bacteria or viruses. Where did those come from?
Here are some cool stuff I inferred from Anthropology class.
1.The Bible says that man and woman are supposed to be monogamous, but there is no biological evidence to support it. Naturally monogamous animals, such as some species of birds, do not have sexual dimorphism. That is, the male and female of those species have the same body size. This is not the case in sexually promiscuous species because of male competition and females choosing which males they like better (sexual selection), and so males that are bigger, has a longer tail, brighter feathers, etc, get selected over time. Gorillas are 50% dimorphic (females are 50% smaller than males), gibbons are 0%, chimpanzees, bonobos, and humans are 15% dimorphic.
2.Not only that, although chimp males are fiercely protective of their females, 10% of newborns in one community were sired by outside sources. Studies have also found that 10% of newborns in vastly different human cultures were not sired by the husband.
3. There are two body types for hominids so far: robust and gracile. Robust simply means thicker bones, very thick jaws, and a heavy-set body. Gracile are what humans are. Assuming Adam and Eve were gracile, humans cannot have robust characteristics. Yet it exists. There's something called a saggital crest, a bone formation which runs lengthwise down the skull in some robust species for the attachment of jaw muscles. My T.A. in the Anthro class had a very tall friend who has a small saggital crest. She says it is pretty obvious if you feel his head (she did), and this guy got a scholarship for having it. There was also another guy in my class who says he had a saggital crest.
4. Europeans and people from the rest of the world have differences in the skull. It is possible (and quite obvious if you read the above) that Neaderthals, who lived mostly in Europe, interbred with anatomically modern humans, since there was a long period when they existed together (ending at the appearance of art), although there is still no confirming fossil evidence for it.
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"There comes a time when the mind takes on a higher plane of knowledge but can never prove how it got there. All great discoveries have involved such a leap."
--Albert Einstein, on intuition.
No, there aren't. Chapter one of Genesis goes into no detail whatsoever on the creation of Adam and Eve. It simply says that they were created on the sixth day. Chapter two goes into the details. There can be no contradiction where there is no overlaping information.
As for the rest, pure opinion, having nothing to do with the Bible and any possible internal contradictions.
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"How do you define fool?"
"I don't attempt it. I wait for demonstrations. They inevitably surpass my imagination."
- CJ Cherryh, Invader
The premise of the Fall is that good can only be discerned with the knowledge of evil, hence the tree.
So it follows that obedience to God is good (then disobedience is bad);
and the punishment of disobedience is death;
and death is bad;
but Adam and Eve don't know death or evil;
so how can they understand WHY they shouldn't disobey God?
Imagine for a second that you don't know what evil means. God tells you, "don't eat from this tree or you will xyz." (xyz=death) So, since you only know good, how would you know disobedience wouldn't result in good?
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"There comes a time when the mind takes on a higher plane of knowledge but can never prove how it got there. All great discoveries have involved such a leap."
--Albert Einstein, on intuition.
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You know, when Comedy Central asked us to do a Thanksgiving episode, the first thought that went through my mind was, "Boy, I'd like to have sex with Jennifer Aniston."
-Trey Parker, co-creator of South Park
1) This is a flaw in the original writing. Thus, if the Bible can be wrong, it clearly is not inspired by god, for he is perfect.
2) This is a flaw in the copying from the original. Thus, if there can be one flaw, the entire Bible loses its credibility because there can be others.
3) The writers were idiots. Since the Bible is god's word, that means god is an idiot.
My first post, however, which Omega deemed irrelevant, is irrelevant for one reason: it shatters his faith. He asked for internal contradictions because his mommy and his daddy and his preacher taught him the Bible is perfect. I provided him those internal contradictions found through centuries of higher criticism by enlightened scholars. He cannot refute them. If he ignores them, he can maintain his faith in the Bible, faith in god, and thus his entire view of the world. If he acknowledges them, he must try to refute them, will either look EXTREMELY stupid (nothing new there) or have to accept that the Bible is a book. A very good book, but a book. Thus, he'll have to change his entire world view at 15 (which I did, but I'm strong). He will have to either lose his faith in Christianity or become an Enlightened Christian (a contradiction in terms, I'm sure) which means he'll have to accept basic scientific facts and base his belief around logic. It's possible, I assure you, but for someone as devout and yet unintelligent as Omega, it will be a difficult road to hoe. I pity him, I do, but, he asked for it.
Omega, if you feel you are in time of need, just call upon the name of the lord and he shall save you! Or shall he....?
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"A mass of tears have been transformed to stones now, sharpened on suffering and woven into slings"
Zack de la Rocha
Rage Against the Machine
Evolution?
Genetics?
A non geocentric model of the universe?
The fact that the Earth is 4.5 billion years old?
Entropy?
Omega, I'm stiiiill waiting ...
(Woohoo! 250th post! I get to edit my status line!)
[This message has been edited by Daniel (edited April 29, 2001).]
Everyone else:
1. Looky here, there is no such thing as a scientific fact, there are currently accepted theories, but there are no facts, these will always be redefined.
2. A person that blindly puts his faith in a book or anything else is blind(see the connection )
3. If Omega wants to be an unenlightened person that beleives everything he's been spoonfed by the supposed authorities on a specific theme, than I fail to see why we should pull him out of his self-made gutter.
4. Any religion that limits me, who I can be, what I can do and how I can feel is not a religion that I will obey.
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"Well if it's gonna be that kind of a party, I'm putting my dick in the mashed potatoes!"
-Nimrod 16/4/2001
Besides, Omega asked for this. DT posted a fair number of reasons. And, as soon as Omega finds his glasses and reads them, we can carry on.
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You know, when Comedy Central asked us to do a Thanksgiving episode, the first thought that went through my mind was, "Boy, I'd like to have sex with Jennifer Aniston."
-Trey Parker, co-creator of South Park
So, since you only know good, how would you know disobedience wouldn't result in good?
Good question. I would respond that there are multiple definitions of the word "know". "Knowing" as in "knowing good and evil" may not refer to intellectual knowledge, but to the knowledge of experience. As in "carnal knowledge". They could know OF evil without KNOWING evil.
Liam:
DT's post, dated April 29, 2001 12:57 AM, has a whole heap of internal contradictions
*looks*
Oh, my. Well, I'll be durned. I never saw that post, nor a couple others near it. How did I manage to scroll past without noticing? Ah, well, forgive me.
Now to the debunking.
DT's old post:
Does god feel regret?
Multiple foreign words can be translated as the same English word, because the English word might have multiple uses. To use the example of the recent incident with China, we regretted that the incident occured, but we did not regret any of our actions. I'd need a Hebrew scholar to tell you further, but you can't have a direct, expliit contradiction when a word can have multiple meanings, either of which being equally valid in context.
Sins of the Father?
What God tells us to do and what God Himself sees fit to do are two seperate things. Now if God had told the Hebrews that THEY should do both things, then we might have a contradiction. But that's not what happened. God is by definition righteous. Man's judgement, however, is fallible. Thus, it would seem that God was protecting possibly innocent people from the fallible judgements of other humans, while punishing those who He knew needed to be punished. Omniscience is a wonderful thing.
Rightousness?
Just so you know, Paul was quoting Psalm 14, in that part of Romans 10. You have to read the rest of the chapter to understand the full meaning of his statement. You took it out of context. Read from verse 19. He was quoting the old law. Now he's explaining how it no longer applies.
"Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. Therefore no one will be declared righteous in His sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become consious of sin."
He's saying here that the point of the law wasn't to get us to Heaven. It was a training tool. The point was to teach us that we CAN'T get to Heaven. At least, not by our works.
"But now, a righteousness from God, apart from the law, has been made known, to which the Law and Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.
Calling on the name of Christ
In Romans 10:14 (the following verse), Paul says, "How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in?" This implies that the phrase "call on" as used here requires faith in the Entity being called upon. However, Jesus said in Matthew 7:21 that there was plainly a difference between saying "Lord, Lord" and actually following Christ. They're talking about two seperate things. Kinda obvious, if you think about it. Saying "Lord, Lord" is analogous to saying "Help me, God." If you don't believe it, it ain't doin' ya no good. However, Paul seems to be talking about actual, legitimate prayer, which no non-believer would do.
The Trinity
I fail to see how you find a contradiction here. What's wrong with Jesus being one with the Father and yet being sent from Him? He didn't say he WAS the Father. Imagine that God is an ocean. The body of water that stretches towards the horizon is the Father. The waves are the Son. The smell of the salt air is the Spirit. Can not the waves come from the ocean, and yet not still be part of it?
DT's newer post:
I provided him those internal contradictions found through centuries of higher criticism by enlightened scholars. He cannot refute them.
Really?
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"How do you define fool?"
"I don't attempt it. I wait for demonstrations. They inevitably surpass my imagination."
- CJ Cherryh, Invader
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"Although, from what I understand, having travelled around the Mid-west quite a bit, apparently Jesus is coming, so I guess the choice now is we should decide whether we should spit or swallow."
-Maynard James Keenan
Next issue....
"What God tells us to do and what God Himself sees fit to do are two seperate things."
Obviously, although as he frequently uses humans as his tools of "divine judgement" he brings us into the mix.
"Now if God had told the Hebrews that THEY should do both things, then we might have a contradiction. But that's not what happened."
Oh, but it is. Let us abandon Deuteronomy 24:16 for that specifically talks about the death penalty. Let us instead examine Ezekiel 18:20 which says "the son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity."
Now, let us examine Deuteronomy chapter 23, in which god lays down the law. Here he says, in verse 2, that no bastard may be allowed to enter into the assembly of the Lord. Why? What did the bastard do? Moreover, he is telling the Israelites to forbid not only the bastard, punish that man for his father's sin, but to punish the bastard's children! For ten generations no less.
"God is by definition righteous."
I'm tackling that in another thread, which I expect you to show up in (since this one is for internal contradictions only) as soon as I start it.
"Man's judgement, however, is fallible."
As is god's, we've proven that. He was wrong to make Saul king, a fact that he himself admits! He felt bad over that decision, he regretted it. Yet, he still did it.
"Thus, it would seem that God was protecting possibly innocent people from the fallible judgements of other humans, while punishing those who He knew needed to be punished."
Which brings up the much deeper philosophical arguement: why let them live at all. Apparently, god knows well in advance that generations will be wicked, so why not just smite the one man and end them all there? Is it because he is fallible, as we have proven he is (for instance, why did he just not have young Saul be killed by a bear or some such? And do not give me the free choice arguement, for we have proven that god has no problem with intervening in the lives of humans and if he is punishing people for sins he clearly feels they will commit, then....).
Of course, he isn't doing this over any need to punish those who he knew needed to be punish. In Exodus 20:4, 34:7, Numbers 14:18, Deuteronomy 5:9, and Isaiah 14:21 he says that he will punish children for the sins of their fathers. Not because he knows they will sin, but simply because one sins all his children must. And, in effect, is this not what he has done to us? Why is their sin and death? Because Adam cocked up. Why should we be punished?
"Omniscience is a wonderful thing."
No, it really isn't. And that's fine, because no one is or ever will know everything.
Onto righteousness....
"You have to read the rest of the chapter to understand the full meaning of his statement."
Don't insult me by saying I haven't read the Bible you little pissant. I've read that damn chapter more times than you can imagine, I've written fucking sermons on it. I will not stand for such insults from such an impudent and cowardly piece of garbage as yourself (and before you accuse me of being coarse, I encourage you to read the writings of your very own Martin Luther and then tell me I am coarser than he).
Nonetheless, if in the Jew bible no one was righteous....
"After that the Lord said to Noah: "Go, you and all your household, into the ark, because you are the one I have seen to be righteous before me among this generation" Genesis 7:1
The trinity itself is one of the most fantastical concepts ever invented. Three seperate beings, yet all as one, yet all seperate at the same time? They can apparently talk amongst themselves, seperate, join together.... it's really quite wierd. It's like it was taken out of Greek mythology.... :-)
Of course, you make no effort to attack the census because it is very difficult to refute. And the archaelogical evidence you ignore.... why? Simply because you feel that we cannot get off-topic in a thread at Flare? Have things changed that much since I left? Do you want me to repost those in another thread?
On the topic of contradictions...
"And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." - Genesis 32:30
"No man hath seen God at any time." - John 1:18
"for I am merciful, saith the Lord, and I will not keep anger forever." - Jeremiah 3:12
"Ye have kindled a fire in mine anger, which shall burn forever." - Jeremiah 17:4
"Blessed is the man that feareth the Lord... Wealth and riches shall be in his house..." - Psalms 112:1-3
"It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." - Matthew 19:24
Clearly, god is trying to keep those who fear him out of his kingdom.
"In righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbor." - Leviticus 19:15
"Judge not, that ye be not judged." - Matthew 7:
"Therefore Michal, the daughter of Saul, had no child unto the day of her death." - II Samuel 6:23
"The five sons of Michal, the daughter of Saul." - II Samuel 21:8
"Two and twenty years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign." - 2 Kings 8:26
"Fourty and two years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign."
- 2 Chronicles 22:2
"And Joab gave up the sum of the number of the people unto the king: and there were in Israel eight hundred thousand valiant men that drew the sword; and the men of Judah were five hundred thousand men"
- 2 Samuel 24:9
"And Joab gave the sum of the number of the people unto David. And all they of Israel were a thousand thousand and an hundred thousand men that drew sword: and Judah was four hundred threescore and ten thousand men that drew sword."
- 1 Chronicles 21:5
"Jehoiachin was eighteen years old when he began to reign, and he reigned in Jerusalem three months." - II Kings 24:8
"Jehoiachin was eight years old when he began to reign, and he reigned three months and ten days in Jerusalem" - II Chronicles 36:9
"They gave him vinegar to drink, mingled with gall." - Matthew 27:34
"And they gave him to drink, wine mingled with myrrh." - Mark 15:28
Him being Jesus on the cross.
"He that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness." - Mark 3:29
"And by him that believe are justified from all things." - Acts 13:39
Seems as if Paul wasn't familiar with Jesus' teachings.
Whosoever shall say Thou fool, shall be in danger of hellfire.
- Matthew 5:22
[Jesus said] Ye fools and blind.
- Matthew 23:17
Thus, Jesus burned in hell.
If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.
- John 5:31
I am one that bear witness of myself...
- John 8:18
Perhaps the Trinity again at fault?
"No man hath ascended up to Heaven, but he that came down from Heaven, even the Son of Man." -John 3:13
"And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into Heaven" -II Kings 2:11 "Also Enoch was taken bodily to Heaven at the age of 365." -Genesis 5:24
A personal fave...
I have more, but it is 6 AM. I will post them tommorow. Hopefully these shall keep you busy Omega.
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"A mass of tears have been transformed to stones now, sharpened on suffering and woven into slings"
Zack de la Rocha
Rage Against the Machine
Hell, I more or less wanted to stay out of this religiously flavoured 'debate', but I felt the need to say this.
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"Cry havoc and let's slip the dogs of Evil"
Then, a bible commision was formed (Bibel2000) that made an updated translation, directly from hebrew to swedish, with additions to the old testament like the apocryphal scripts, the Tora (swedish sp) scrolls and such.
There's a dictionary in the back as well, so people can do some interpreting of their own.
It cost us a fortune, but the result is remarkable.
It's much more readable now, and although I'm not much of a christian it's sometimes interesting to check out certain places and events in there.
What edition does the english-speaking world have?
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Don't kill me, I'm charming!
It also has a nice mini-encyclopedia thing, and a map at the back. How thoughtful
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You know, when Comedy Central asked us to do a Thanksgiving episode, the first thought that went through my mind was, "Boy, I'd like to have sex with Jennifer Aniston."
-Trey Parker, co-creator of South Park
As for the arrogant kid behind the curtain...
DT:
Thus, the Bible says that god cannot "nacham" and later in the same chapter he does "nacham" over the issue of Saul.
Actually, no, it doesn't. The Bible says that SAMUEL said that God does not "nacham". It's entirely possible that Samuel was wrong. The Bible just says that he said it, not that he was right.
And I still want the opinion of a Hebrew scholar before I discard the possibility of multiple meanings dependant on context.
Yet, he made Saul king and apparently feels regret (or repentance) over that.
Not necessarily. Again, I point out the China incident. He can regret the necessity of His actions to achieve His ends, without actually regretting taking those actions. Again, "regret" has many possible meanings, as does "nacham".
Nacham is here translated as changed mind, and would denote the same connotations as feeling bad about ever intending it in the first place
No, it wouldn't. I can change my mind for the benefit of a friend, and not feel bad that I ever intended to do otherwise.
the simple fact that his original judgement was WRONG is shocking
Who said the original judgement was wrong? God simply changed it. Probably, he wanted Moses to learn something.
Should not an omniscient god, as you claim him to be, capable of killing people for crimes no one knows they will commit, be able to know that people will repent and thus NOT punish them for crimes or even plan such punishment?
Capable, yes, but He would have the possible reason that their repentence was DEPENDENT upon their knowing that they might have been punished, but for the intercession of Moses, Jesus, etc. Missing death by a hair has an effect on people.
Theoretically, your god should never have to change his mind.
Unless he was doing so for the benefit of us lesser beings.
Let us instead examine Ezekiel 18:20 which says "the son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity."
Ah, but further, let us instead stop taking verses out of their context, and read Ezekiel 18:4. "The soul who sins is the one who will die." God's not talking about physical bodies, here. Thus, this passage is not related to Exodus 20:4 (which you also took out of context, BTW).
Now, let us examine Deuteronomy chapter 23, in which god lays down the law. Here he says, in verse 2, that no bastard may be allowed to enter into the assembly of the Lord. Why?
To teach the Israelites that there were severe consequences to their actions.
Apparently, god knows well in advance that generations will be wicked, so why not just smite the one man and end them all there?
Again, it's for the benefit of those who WILL be saved. If there had been no enemies for God to deliver them from, Israel would have quickly fallen into total idolatry and never returned.
why did he just not have young Saul be killed by a bear or some such?
Because then the people would never have learned what they needed to learn. David also learned many things from Saul's being king. Nor could David have been made king immediately, as he was probably not yet born at the time.
In Exodus 20:4, 34:7, Numbers 14:18, Deuteronomy 5:9, and Isaiah 14:21 he says that he will punish children for the sins of their fathers.
"For I, the Lord, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me.
Most of the rest quote this verse.
The exception is Isaiah 14:21. "Prepare a place to slaughter his sons for the sins of their forefathers;" According to verse 4, this is a reference to the king of Babylon. Again, you took it out of context. It's a prophecy of what the people will say when they're freed from Babylon. "On the day the Lord gives you relief from suffering and turmoil and cruel bondage, you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon:..." Meaning that the people, in CONTRADICTION to the law as stated, will want to kill the king's children for the king's sins. Whether they will succeed or not is left unanswered.
Why is their sin and death? Because Adam cocked up. Why should we be punished?
We're not being punished. Death is not punishment. God simply can't be in the presence of sin, and there can be no life without God. If you go back to a previous thread, I go into more detail, but the idea is that God isn't damning us. We're already damned. "Come with me, if you want to live."
I encourage you to read the writings of your very own Martin Luther
My very own? You mean in the general sense that he was a protestant Christian?
Don't insult me by saying I haven't read the Bible you little pissant. I've read that damn chapter more times than you can imagine, I've written fucking sermons on it. I will not stand for such insults from such an impudent and cowardly piece of garbage as yourself
Well, since we've established that your interpretation was wrong, there are two possibilities. The first is that you don't know scripture as well as you claim, and thus could be excused for not seeing your error. The second, that you do, and were purposefully spreading false information. Which is it?
Nonetheless, if in the Jew bible no one was righteous....
"After that the Lord said to Noah: "Go, you and all your household, into the ark, because you are the one I have seen to be righteous before me among this generation" Genesis 7:1
You really should try the NIV some time. Much easier to read.
Under any circumstances, Noah wasn't perfect. "Because I have found you righteous in this generation" implies that he wasn't righteous in the absolute sense that David talks about in Psalms, or Paul in Romans, but that Noah was righteous in the sense that he at least tried to do good, unlike those around him. He also sinned after the flood, which means that even if he WAS righteous in the absolute sense at the time that God said 7:1, he certainly lost that status later.
And the archaelogical evidence you ignore.... why?
Do you want me to repost those in another thread?
YES! Don't you read? I said that quite a while back.
re: God's face
The Bible doesn't say that Jacob saw God's face. It says that JACOB said that he saw God's face. He could have been mistaken. In fact, it seems more likely that this was an angel. Not God's style.
re: God's anger
Again, you took the verses out of context. Do you do that on purpose, or do you just grab the verses out of a concordance, without looking them up and actually reading them?
God was talking to Israel in 3:12, saying that He would not be angry forever. He knew this, because He knew they'd return to Him. However, in 17:4, he's refering to Judah (the nation composed of Benjamin and Judah, so far as I can tell, not the individual tribe of Judah). He knew that THEY would not repent, and thus his anger towards them WOULD "burn forever".
re: riches
"Blessed is the man that feareth the Lord... Wealth and riches shall be in his house..." - Psalms 112:1-3
"It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." - Matthew 19:24
Clearly, god is trying to keep those who fear him out of his kingdom.
Again, taken out of context. Psalm 112:1. "Blessed is the man who fears the Lord, who finds great delight in his commands." Matthew 19:21. "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven." Following the commands REQUIRES that you not care about earthly wealth. The wealth and riches may not be here on Earth, but they're certainly where it matters.
"In righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbor." - Leviticus 19:15
"Judge not, that ye be not judged." - Matthew 7:1
Leviticus 19:15. "Do not pervery justice; do not show partiality to the poor or favoritism to the great, but judge your neighbor fairly." It's talking about legal trials, here. Judging actions, not judging character. Again, quote taken out of context.
"Therefore Michal, the daughter of Saul, had no child unto the day of her death." - II Samuel 6:23
"The five sons of Michal, the daughter of Saul." - II Samuel 21:8
Well, that's funny. In my Bible, II Samuel 21:8 says, "...together with the five sons of Saul's daughter Merab..." You must try the NIV some time. KJV is so out of date.
"Two and twenty years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign." - 2 Kings 8:26
"Fourty and two years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign."
- 2 Chronicles 22:2
Again, you must try NIV. II Chronicles 22:2, "Ahaziah was 22 years old when he became king..."
re: Joab and the census
Well, let's see. 470,000 in Judah is close enough to 500,000 so as not to cause a problem. So Judah's numbers are fine. In Samuel, it says that there were 800,000 fighters in Israel, outside of Judah. Chronicles says that there were a million, one hundred thousand, INCLUDING Judah, but NOT Benjamin or Levi. 200,000 is a decent estimate for those two tribes. The numbers may not match up, but there's enough uncertainty to allow for quite a range of possibilities. Again, no direct contradiction is possible unless you have all the details.
re: Jehoiachin
Again, my Bible says in Chronicles that he was eighteen when he assumed the throne.
re: Jesus' drink
Mark 15:28 is relegated to a footnote in my Bible, and even there, it says nothing about any drink being offered Him. It's something about a fulfillment of a specific prophecy from Isaiah about Him being counted among thieves.
re: unforgivable sin
Wow, you didn't take it out of context, and yet you STILL got it wrong. "Through Him, everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be justified from by the law of Moses." This is not contradictory with, "Whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven," because to blaspheme against the Spirit, you CAN'T be a believer in Him.
re: fire of hell
"IN DANGER OF". Not "Guarenteed".
re: self-witnessing
"If I testify about myself, my testimony is not valid." He's making a statement of Mosaic law. This is a true statement. In John 8:14, He's talking about how He trancends the Mosaic law. He is, in fact, using the difference to make a point. What's your problem?
re: ascent into Heaven
Well, the Enoch reference in modern translations says nothing about Heaven. As for the other two, care to enlighten us on the Hebrew connection, if any? "Heaven" can mean the literal place of God, or it can mean the sky. More information is required.
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"How do you define fool?"
"I don't attempt it. I wait for demonstrations. They inevitably surpass my imagination."
- CJ Cherryh, Invader
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"Well if it's gonna be that kind of a party, I'm putting my dick in the mashed potatoes!"
-Nimrod 16/4/2001
Omega: Your usual tactic of ignoring 90% of someone's post and making some facile retort was becoming very tiresome. Although I still utterly disagree with everything you have to say on this subject (nothing personal, it's the Bible) it's good to see you start to actually try and take someone on fairly for a change.
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"If you can't beat your computer at chess, try kickboxing."
Oh, and God is the root of all evil.
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"There comes a time when the mind takes on a higher plane of knowledge but can never prove how it got there. All great discoveries have involved such a leap."
--Albert Einstein, on intuition.
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Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 8.32 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux (with seven eps posted)
***
"Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!"
-Omega 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001
***
"I think this reason why girls don't do well on multiple choice tests goes all the way back to the Bible, all the way back to Genesis, Adam and Eve. God said, 'All right, Eve, multiple choice or multiple orgasms, what's it going to be?' We all know what was chosen" - Rush Limbaugh, Feb. 23, 1994.
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"A mass of tears have been transformed to stones now, sharpened on suffering and woven into slings"
Zack de la Rocha
Rage Against the Machine
That's because we haven't been proven wrong.
Ziyal:
If God can destroy whomever he wants and be justified about it, then he's pretty much the same as every other god from mythology.
But God has limitations on what he WILL do, unlike the mythological Gods.
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"How do you define fool?"
"I don't attempt it. I wait for demonstrations. They inevitably surpass my imagination."
- CJ Cherryh, Invader
That's like Adolf Hitler saying, "We haven't been beaten!" as Soviet troops storm Berlin from the east, and Allied troops storm it from the west.
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Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 8.32 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux (with seven eps posted)
***
"Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!"
-Omega 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001
***
"I think this reason why girls don't do well on multiple choice tests goes all the way back to the Bible, all the way back to Genesis, Adam and Eve. God said, 'All right, Eve, multiple choice or multiple orgasms, what's it going to be?' We all know what was chosen" - Rush Limbaugh, Feb. 23, 1994.
2 Timothy 3:16 - ALL scripture is inspired by god
You can't use this arguement. Your arguement is that the bible is the inspired word of god. Mine is that it is a collection of writings. If Samuel erred, but was inspired when he erred, there creates a problem. Clearly, biblical inspiration is not perfect. Moreover, if Samuel, a Bible writer (supposedly) can be wrong when describing god, who else is? Perhaps god is not love?
Moreover, if god can repent, then he is not perfect.
"Who said the original judgement was wrong? God simply changed it. Probably, he wanted Moses to learn something."
Learn what?
"To teach the Israelites that there were severe consequences to their actions."
So to do that, he does actions which later he changes his mind on? By this justification, incidentally, any evil is fine. Hitler is justified for he taught the Jews that they needed a homeland. If god is so great as to permit evil simply to teach lessons, your god is sick in the head. But to get back to the point about this, what is the purpose of punishing the bastard son? What sin did he commit that was worthy of punishing? This was not some law given to scare people, this was THE LAW! It's a penal code, like any other, and here it clearly shows that god is commanding his people to PUNISH children for the sins of their father whereas he also says that the sons CANNOT be punished for the sins of their father.
"Because then the people would never have learned what they needed to learn. David also learned many things from Saul's being king. Nor could David have been made king immediately, as he was probably not yet born at the time."
David did not need to be made king. Theoretically, god could've found someone to be king who he would not letter regret having made king. As it stands, you cannot simply wipe away all this on the issue of 'nacham' because I am not a Hebrew scholar. The Bible was translated by Hebrew scholars, the English translation clearly must be good enough. Or perhaps I should give it to you in German?
"We're not being punished. Death is not punishment. God simply can't be in the presence of sin, and there can be no life without God. If you go back to a previous thread, I go into more detail, but the idea is that God isn't damning us. We're already damned. "Come with me, if you want to live.""
I don't want to come with him, frankly. And why are we damned? Because of Adam. Was man originally created to die? No. Death came through sin. Read Romans 5:12.
"My very own? You mean in the general sense that he was a protestant Christian?"
Yes. Martin Luther is your own in no other way for he was an intellectual and not a bottom feeding drone like yourself. You really should read some Luther, it'd do you good.
"The Bible doesn't say that Jacob saw God's face. It says that JACOB said that he saw God's face. He could have been mistaken."
Again, go back to my earlier point. Jacob can't be wrong if this is inspired by god.
"Well, that's funny. In my Bible, II Samuel 21:8 says, "...together with the five sons of Saul's daughter Merab..." You must try the NIV some time. KJV is so out of date."
I'm not using the KJV to back up this point. The name Merab does NOT appear in the Masoretic texts. Now, will you tell the Jews they are wrong about their own Bible? Samuel, afterall, was a Jew writing in Hebrew in the Jewish half of the Bible. I am far more inclined to trust a Rabbi on what Samuel said than I will trust a Christian.
As it is, I find the phrase that the KJV to be out of date quite arrogant. Are you telling me that the millions of Christians who based their lives around the Bible, as interpreted by James Stuart, were basing their lives on a book that was wrong? According to you, the KJV is not accurate, so thus, they were wrong. What if, hundreds of years from now, someone tells you that about the NIV?
"Again, you must try NIV. II Chronicles 22:2, "Ahaziah was 22 years old when he became king...""
You should try the American Standard Version. Or the King James Version. Or the Third Millenium Bible. Or the New Revised Standard. Or the Revised Standard. Or the Douay. Or the Latin Vulgate. All of these translations contradict the NIV. This brings up another problem. If the translations are themselves contradictory, how can we know which one is true? We don't have the originals, thus we are dealing with copies of copies many times removed, including translations. Errors clearly can, and do, crop up. Thus, if we cannot even trust the Bible to be what was originally written....
"Again, my Bible says in Chronicles that he was eighteen when he assumed the throne."
Again... you can give me one translation, I give you seven others. As it is, this errs twice because it also differs on how long he ruled.
re: fire of hell
"IN DANGER OF". Not "Guarenteed".
Nevertheless, my main point is not that Jesus went to hell but that he contradicted himself. Again, this is easily explained. One of the writers had more of a dramatic flare than the other and did not check what the other was writing.
Why does god reward those with riches if they must give it all away for the Christ?
The Joab Census
You make no sense here. In Chronicles it says that Benjamin and Levi did not register. Chronicles has the HIGHER number. Now, since this is the same story, one of two things happened. In one of the books, the author guessed how many those two tribes would have (not a very accurate way to write the inspired word of god). Or, of course, someone was estimating, which again, this is the inspired word of god, is it not? Your refutation of this contradiction is lacking, and as you have to refute every single contradiction otherwise the Bible is wrong, I demand you try to refute it again but more logically (at the same time, tackle the other two censuses I mentioned). How can the exact same census show two completely different numbers? There is a LARGE difference between 800,000 and 1 million. 20 percent, to be exact. If our government was off that much, you'd be trying to string up the stupid liberals who conducted the census. Moreover, you've read the scripture wrong. Chronicles specifically gives TWO numbers, one for Israel, one for Judah. Samuel does the same. Both time they give numbers, they are off. What gives? Don't tell me that in one book they say they're giving numbers for Israel, include Judah, and then give the numers for Judah while the other they just give numbers for Israel and then numbers for Judah. Because, frankly, they don't add up. If Samuel says Israel has 800,000 men that drew the sword, and Chronicles says Israel has 100,000 men that drew the sword, there must be 700,000 unaccounted for me. Judah? Well, Judah has 10,000 men that drew the sword. Still too low. Omega, you have some fuzzy math.
Let's stick with numbers to get into the census of Ezra and Nehemiah. Let's just hit one particular section:
"and there were among them two hundred singing men and singing women."
- Ezra 2:65
"and they had two hundred forty and five singing men and singing women. " - Nehemiah 7:67
Apparently, god forgot fortyfive singers!!!
On the issue of blasphemy I encourage you to read verse 38. "Let it therefore be known to YOU, brothers, that through this One a forgiveness of sins is being published to YOU." If blasphemy is unforgivable, what of those who then repent and find the Lord? Are they, like Paul, welcomed to the fold or are they refused admittance?
"Then there passed by Midianites merchantmen; and they drew and lifted up Joseph out of the pit, and sold Joseph to the Ishmeelites for twenty pieces of silver: and they brought Joseph into Egypt." - Genesis 37:28
"And the Midianites sold him into Egypt unto Potiphar, an officer of Pharaoh's, and captain of the guard." - Genesis 37:36
These verses are so close, but why does one say he was sold from the Midianities to the Ishmeelites and then brought into Egypt and the other says he was just sold right into Egypt? Different authors. The first verse was written by a Yahwist source and the second by an Elohist source.
The last words of Jesus are reported different in three different gospels. Inspired word of god or a story? Of course, it is also interesting that in one of those versions he asks himself why he forsook himself and in another he commends his spirit to himself.
In Matthew, Judas gives the ransom price back to the chief priests and hangs himself.
In Acts, Judas buys a field with it and then "falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out."
Matthew 16 says that, after his saying that "there be some standing here which shall not taste death" it was six days until the transfiguration. Luke 9 takes the exact same saying and makes it eight days.
In Mark, Simon bears the cross for Jesus. In John, it clearly states Jesus bore the cross.
Luke includes a second Judas as an apostle, Matthew gives a Lebbaeus Thaddaeus.
In John, following his baptism, Jesus goes to Galilee with Philip and two days later is at the wedding feast in Cana. In Mark, following his baptism, Jesus is in the wilderness forty days and tempted by Satan (which is remarkably similiar to a story written about the Buddha a few centuries before Jesus was born).
"While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him, saying, My daughter is even now dead: but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live."
- Matthew 9:18
"And besought him greatly, saying, My little daughter lieth at the point of death: I pray thee, come and lay thy hands on her, that she may be healed; and she shall live."
- Mark 5:23
"Jesus answered him, Wilt thou lay down thy life for my sake? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, The cock shall not crow, till thou hast denied me thrice."
- John 13:38
"And Jesus saith unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this day, even in this night, before the cock crow twice, thou shalt deny me thrice."
- Mark 14:30
The inscription on the top of the cross is different in FOUR DIFFERENT GOSPELS. And don't blame that on translations, I have the original Greek on my lap right now and it's different. Only slightly, yes, but still different and it should not be if this is the inspired account of god.
Acts 9 says the men with Paul heard a voice but saw no man and Acts 22 says the men with Paul (in the same story) saw a light but heard no voice.
"He reigned three years in Jerusalem. His mother's name also was Michaiah the daughter of Uriel of Gibeah. And there was war between Abijah and Jeroboam."
- II Chronicles 13:2
"And after her he took Maachah the daughter of Absalom; which bare him Abijah, and Attai, and Ziza, and Shelomith."
- II Chronicles 11:20
Matthew 1 attempts to give a geneology of of Jesus. In so doing, he lists 16 generations from the time they were brought into Babylon. Then, in verse 17 he says that from the carrying away into Babylon until Christ there were 14 generations. More fuzzy math.
Unfortunately, I must now go as some friends of mine and I shall be carousing and trying to break as much of god's law as possible. I will return tommorow with more.
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"A mass of tears have been transformed to stones now, sharpened on suffering and woven into slings"
Zack de la Rocha
Rage Against the Machine
BTW, is there an "official" (Enlgish) translation of the bible, authorized by the pope? The pope is supposedly infallible in making church-related decisions. Therefore, any translation he authorizes must be correct. And I don't doubt that in such translation, Moses' right-hand-man is called "Joshua", while the main character in the gospels is called "Jesus". How can this be, when they both had the same Hebrew name ("Yeshua'")?
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"Although, from what I understand, having travelled around the Mid-west quite a bit, apparently Jesus is coming, so I guess the choice now is we should decide whether we should spit or swallow."
-Maynard James Keenan
Moses' right-hand-man is called "Joshua", while the main character in the gospels is called "Jesus". How can this be, when they both had the same Hebrew name
Probably something to do with the fact that Jesus spoke Aramaic, and was written about in Greek.
I'd respond to DT, but I don't have a spare hour. Got a concert. Be back later.
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"How do you define fool?"
"I don't attempt it. I wait for demonstrations. They inevitably surpass my imagination."
- CJ Cherryh, Invader
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Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 8.32 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux (with seven eps posted)
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"Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!"
-Omega 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001
***
"I think this reason why girls don't do well on multiple choice tests goes all the way back to the Bible, all the way back to Genesis, Adam and Eve. God said, 'All right, Eve, multiple choice or multiple orgasms, what's it going to be?' We all know what was chosen" - Rush Limbaugh, Feb. 23, 1994.
Heck, someday we might show that 1+1 really isn't 2. I konw the theory of evolution will change, as will that of relativity.
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"A celibate clergy is an especially good idea because it tends to suppress any hereditary propensity toward fanaticism."
-Eleanor Arroway, "Contact" by Carl Sagan
And Jeff, can I be the Red Army?! Both because I've got a red flag, am Russian, and want not just victory but retribution on my enemy for personal reasons :-)
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"A mass of tears have been transformed to stones now, sharpened on suffering and woven into slings"
Zack de la Rocha
Rage Against the Machine
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Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 8.32 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux (with seven eps posted)
***
"Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!"
-Omega 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001
***
"I think this reason why girls don't do well on multiple choice tests goes all the way back to the Bible, all the way back to Genesis, Adam and Eve. God said, 'All right, Eve, multiple choice or multiple orgasms, what's it going to be?' We all know what was chosen" - Rush Limbaugh, Feb. 23, 1994.
[This message has been edited by JeffKardde (edited April 30, 2001).]
So, why not be consistent? Either call the OT guy "Jesus", or call the Nazarean "Joshua". Here's a comparison... Take the name "William". We'll replace Hebrew w/ German and Greek w/ French. Some guy called "Wilhelm" helps lead his people out of exile and is written about in German. Later English texts call him "William". Twelve-hundred years later, another Wilhelm founds a religion. But he gets written about in French, and called "Guillaume". After a few more translations, it comes out in English as "Gilligan". Imagine a guy named "Wilhelm", being worshipped under the name "Gilligan". Silly, isn't it? So's the name "Jesus".
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"Although, from what I understand, having travelled around the Mid-west quite a bit, apparently Jesus is coming, so I guess the choice now is we should decide whether we should spit or swallow."
-Maynard James Keenan
[This message has been edited by TSN (edited May 01, 2001).]
1 + 1 does not always equal to 2, Tt is defined so in some fields of mathmatic.
why? too many explaining to do, I'll just leave it at that.
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What is the difference between a terriorist and your girlfriend?
- With terrorist, there is a chance of negotiation.
Since the Reformation a variety of attitudes towards Biblical contradiction have appeared in various Protestant churches, ranging from a shrug or two in Anglican churches combined with a migration back towards the more Catholic emphasis on teachings and sermon rather than "the word" to Omega's brand of fundie "my translation is better than your translation" syntactical olympics.
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"I can be creative when I have a good idea. That just happens way too rarely."
-Omega, April 6
Interestingly enough, those of us who believe it's all a load of horse manure haven't been proven wrong, either.
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The government that seems the most unwise, oft goodness to the people best supplies. That which is meddling, touching everything, will work but ill, and disappointment bring. - The Tao Te Ching
No, we have defined the number '2' to be the sum of '1' with itself. I've used quotes to emphasize that the number '2' is merely a label (in fact, for the set of all things with the attribute of 'twoness'). The pedantic will then go on to show that 2 is greater than 1. The inspired will take the idea further and generate the natural numbers by saying every number n has a successor (n+1). There's no experimentalism involved in it anywhere AT ALL!
Omega:
Don't suppose you could post us the first few verses of Genesis in your version of the Bible, could you? Cheers.
Sorry if any of you guys think mathematics should stay out of this debate, but in IMHO the only way to approach it is with logical rigour, which no other discipline (except perhaps philosophy) provides.
Yes, but that's not mathematics. That's semantics, an otherwise unrelated field.
Or to put it another way...
"Don't play lawyer-ball, boy!" -- Hank Hill
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The government that seems the most unwise, oft goodness to the people best supplies. That which is meddling, touching everything, will work but ill, and disappointment bring. - The Tao Te Ching
Interestingly enough, those of us who believe it's all a load of horse manure haven't been proven wrong, either.
Ah, but I never said that that was my intention, did I?
Tim:
A rose, by any other name, would smell as sweet. Insert corny "Rose of Sharon" reference here.
Eclipse:
Don't suppose you could post us the first few verses of Genesis in your version of the Bible, could you?
Which ones do you want?
DT:
Your arguement is that the bible is the inspired word of god. Mine is that it is a collection of writings. If Samuel erred, but was inspired when he erred, there creates a problem.
No, no, he was inspired while WRITING, not for every second of his life. If he was writing about his own actions in the past, he would HAVE to write down his mistake. Otherwise, it'd be a false writing.
if god can repent, then he is not perfect
Only by certain definitions of "repent".
"Who said the original judgement was wrong? God simply changed it. Probably, he wanted Moses to learn something."
Learn what?
That, "Hey! I really do care about these annoying people." Nothing like forcing someone to say something out loud to cement the idea in their mind.
Theoretically, god could've found someone to be king who he would not letter regret having made king.
But then the Israelites wouldn't have learned what they did about the folly of kings from Saul. David had to be king. It was part of the overall plan (Jesus, and such). The only way to get the people to accept David as a king might have been to give them a really crappy king in the interrim, so they'd appreciate him more. David also learned much about kingship from Saul, and from his son Jonathan. Effectively, David was to become king, and all other things worked toward that end.
The Bible was translated by Hebrew scholars, the English translation clearly must be good enough.
Yes, and it says "regret", which can have several different meanings in this context.
And why are we damned? Because of Adam. Was man originally created to die? No. Death came through sin.
As I said. We sinned, and were thus seperated from God. Thus we die.
Jacob can't be wrong if this is inspired by god.
But Jacob wrote no part of the Bible, to the best of my considerable knowledge, and it is therefore not required that he have been inspired.
The name Merab does NOT appear in the Masoretic texts.
But it DOES appear in some Hebrew manuscripts, Septuagint and Syriac. Some may say otherwise, but if you have two distinct sources for a piece of information, and one of those sources gives two possibilities, then you accept the one that doesn't lead to a contradiction. Unless, of course, you're TRYING to create contradictions where they aren't necessary, which wouldn't be very scientific of you. The same applies to Ahaziah.
re: "you're a fool"
my main point is not that Jesus went to hell but that he contradicted himself
No, he didn't. He said that someone who called his brother a fool was in danger of the fires of Hell. That passage was talking about how you treat your brother. First, that would hardly apply to Jesus relationship to the hypocrites to whom he was later speaking. Second, some manuscripts qualify the entire passage by saying "without cause". Jesus was well justified in being angry. Again, don't try to create contradictions where they aren't necessary.
Why does god reward those with riches if they must give it all away for the Christ?
A) Heavenly riches don't have to be given away.
B) Even the earthly ones, when given away, can do good. You're the communist. Would you rather see $1,000,000,000 in the hands of a Christian philanthropist, or in the hands of an athiest who doesn't give a darn?
re: census
Let me quote the appropriate scriptures, so those not following along will know what I'm talking about.
II Samuel 24:9
"Joab reported the number of the fighting men to the king. In Israel there were eight hundred thousand able-bodied men who could handle a sword, and in Judah five hundred thousand."
I Chronicles 21:5-6
"Joab reported the number of the fighting men to David: in all Israel there were one million one hundred thousand men who could handle a sword, including four hundred and seventy thousand in Judah. But Joab did not include Levi and Benjamin in the numbering, because the king's command was repulsive to him."
Now Samuel says that Joab reported that there were 1.3 million fighting people in Israel. Chronicles says that Joab reported that there were 1.1 million. However, Joab didn't include Levi and Benjamin in that 1.1 million. Is it not possible that a slightly later census obtained numbers for those two tribes, and those were the numbers used by Samuel, because they were complete? It would also explain the difference in Judah's numbers. Alternatively, perhaps Chronicles lists a sort of preliminary report, or even an attempt by Joab to come quit before his job was finished. If the attempt was disallowed, Joab would have finished the census by going to Levi and Benjamin, and later reported the greater number including Benjamin and Levi, which were then used in Samuel.
There are possibilities. Thus, there is no explicit contradiction.
re: Ezra and Nehemiah singers
Ezra was a list of all the people that came the first trip back to Israel from captivity. Nehemiah said that he was reading from the geneological records that he'd found quite some time later. It's possible that the geneological records were wrong without leading to a contradiction, because an inspired writer didn't write them, to the best of our knowledge. All Nehemiah said was that that was what was written, not that it was what was true.
On the issue of blasphemy I encourage you to read verse 38. "Let it therefore be known to YOU, brothers, that through this One a forgiveness of sins is being published to YOU." If blasphemy is unforgivable, what of those who then repent and find the Lord?
Blasphemy and the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit are apparently two seperate things. The only explaination I've found is that once you've commited the unforgivable sin, you won't ASK for forgiveness, and thus of course won't receive it.
These verses are so close, but why does one say he was sold from the Midianities to the Ishmeelites and then brought into Egypt and the other says he was just sold right into Egypt?
Thing is, verse 28 doesn't make all that much sense, even on its own, at first glance.
"So when the Midianite convoy came by, his brothers pulled Joseph up out of the cistern and sold him for twenty shekels of silver to the Ishmaelites, who took him to Egypt."
Now if it was a Midianite convoy that came by, then why did Joseph's brothers sell him to the ISHMAELITES? One possibility: A number of manuscripts say "Medanites". Are these an identified group? If not, it's quite possible that the Medanites are simply a sub-group of the Ishmaelites, and thus we have consistancy, both within verse 28, and between it and v.36. Another possibility is that the [Midianite/Medanite] convoy for some reason included Ishmaelites, and they, after originally buying Joseph, sold him to the [Midianites/Medanites] of the convoy, who then sold him in Egypt.
The last words of Jesus are reported different in three different gospels. Inspired word of god or a story?
Matthew 27:46-50
"About the ninth hour, Jesus cried out in a loud voice, 'Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani'-- which means, 'My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?' When some of those standing there heard this, they said, 'He's calling Elijah.' Immediately, one of them ran and got a sponge. He filled it with wine vinegar, put it on a stick, and offered it to Jesus to drink. The rest said, 'Now leave him alone. Let's see if Elijah comes to save him.' And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit."
Mark 15:34-37
"And at the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, 'Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani'-- which means, 'My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?' When some of those standing near heard this, they said, 'Listen, he's calling Elijah.' One man ran, filled a sponge with wine vinegar, and offered it to Jesus to drink. 'Now leave him alone. Let's see if Elijah comes to take him down,' they said. With a loud cry, Jesus breathed his last."
Luke 23:46
"Jesus called out with a loud voice, 'Father, into your hands I commit my spirit.' When he had said this, he breathed his last."
John 19:28
"Later, knowing that all was now completed, and so that the Scripture would be fulfilled, Jesus said, "I am thirsty." A jar of wine vinegar was there, so they soaked a sponge in it, but the sponge on a stalk of the hyssop plant, and lifted it to Jesus' lips. When He had received the dring, Jesus said, "It is finished." With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit."
Don't feel bad that you're going to get beaten on this one, Dan. I've argued this here before, during your self-imposed and all to brief sabbatical.
I fail to see the contradiction. Jesus cries out in a loud voice, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit," then very quietly, where none but those standing nearby (like John) can hear him, says "It is finished." It's actually a nice little bit of continuity, that John would be the only one to hear it. He was the only writer near by. Unless, of course, you count the Gospel of Mary as "canon".
In Matthew, Judas gives the ransom price back to the chief priests and hangs himself.
In Acts, Judas buys a field with it and then "falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out."
Matthew 27:3
"When Judas, who had betrayed him, saw that Jesus was condemned, he was seized with remorse, and returned the thirty silver coins to the shief priests and the elders. "I have sinned," he said, "for I have betrayed innocent blood." "What is that to us?" they replied. "That's your responsibility." So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself. The chief priests picked up the coins and said, "It's against the law to put this into the treasury, since it's blood money." So they decided to use it to buy the potter's field as a burial place for foreigners."
Acts 1:18
"With the reward he got for his wickedness, Judas bought a field; there he fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out."
Well, two apparent contradictions. First is, who bought the field with the money? Second is, how did Judas die?
The death can be reconciled. I'd guess (as only one possibility) that after he hanged himself, they started to bury him in the field. It was intended as a burial ground for foreigners. Perhaps Judas would qualify. We don't know that much about him. It's also possible that, since it was his money that bought it, they decided to bury him there. Not knowing Jewish funeral traditions of the day I can't give details, but either way, it's possible that when the body was being transported or buried, it was dropped, and THEN his intestines spilled out. Notice that Acts doesn't say that he died when his body burst open. He could easily have already been dead.
As for who bought the field, I know something about Greek, and "With the reward he got for his wickedness, Judas bought a field;" smacks of being an ambiguous sentence. I'll have to look it up at that site Tim refered me to later.
Darn, this is taking a long time...
Matthew 16 says that, after his saying that "there be some standing here which shall not taste death" it was six days until the transfiguration. Luke 9 takes the exact same saying and makes it eight days.
Ah, Luke says "ABOUT eight days after Jesus had said this..." Not exactly eight days. Six is close enough for me.
In Mark, Simon bears the cross for Jesus. In John, it clearly states Jesus bore the cross.
Matthew 27:32
"As they were going out, they met a man from Cyrene, named Simon, and they forced him to carry the cross."
Mark 15:21
"A certain man from Cyrene, Simon, the father of Alexander and Rufus, was passing by on his was in from the country, and they forced him to carry the cross."
Luke 23:36
"As they led him away, they seized Simon from Cyrene, who was on his way in from the country, and put the cross on him and made him carry it behind Jesus."
John 19:17
"Carrying his own cross, he went out to the place of the Skull (which in Aramaic is called Golgotha)."
Crosses came in two parts, you know. Then there's the whole Catholic myth about Jesus falling beneath the load, and THEN Simon carrying the cross. It's not supported by scripture, and was probably created to cover just this problem, but it's at least feasable. Then there's the possibility that they were BOTH carrying the cross. It was a rather long device, after all.
Luke includes a second Judas as an apostle, Matthew gives a Lebbaeus Thaddaeus.
Matthew 10:2-4
"These are the names of the twelve apostles: first, Simon (who is called Peter) and his brother Andrew; James son of Zebedee, and his brother John; Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James son of Alphaeus, and Thaddeus; Simon the Zealot and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed Him."
Luke 6:14-16
"Simon (whom He named Peter), his brother Andrew, James, John, Philip, Bartholomew, Matthew, Thoman, James son of Alphaeus, Simon who was called the Zealot, Judas son of James, and Judas Iscariot, who became a trator."
I won't quote the rest of the scriptures that give the entire list. Mark 3:16-19 lists Thaddeus, whereas Acts 1:13 lists Judas son of James. You know as well as I do that people could have multiple names back then. Simon/Peter, for an example. This is reaching, even for you.
In John, following his baptism, Jesus goes to Galilee with Philip and two days later is at the wedding feast in Cana. In Mark, following his baptism, Jesus is in the wilderness forty days and tempted by Satan
No, no, NO! Would you actually READ the scripure before you start talking about it? It'd sure save me the time wasted responding to useless things like this.
The story of Christ's baptism in John is only told because John tells about John the Baptist telling others about it LONG AFTER IT HAS HAPPENED. It was two days after JohnB TOLD about His baptism that Jesus left for Galilee, not two days after the baptism itself.
re: the ruler's daughter
Don't forget Luke 8:41-56. I'll have to look up the Greek on this one, too. It's quite possible that the present and past tenses of "dying" could be confused, or even are the same.
I'll get to the last in a bit. I need a break.
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"How do you define fool?"
"I don't attempt it. I wait for demonstrations. They inevitably surpass my imagination."
- CJ Cherryh, Invader
[This message has been edited by Omega (edited May 01, 2001).]
"Would you rather see $1,000,000,000 in the hands of a Christian philanthropist, or in the hands of an athiest who doesn't give a darn?"
Why must we automatically assume thet the atheist can't be a philanthropist? PREJUDICE! PREJUDICE!
In fact, by the definition of 'philanthropist' : philo = lover of + anthro = mankind, one might easily reason that the money would be better spent in the atheist's hands, because he'd be more concerned with aiding the problems of THIS life than worrying about the next. After all, it does the people considerably less temporal good if the Christian philanthropist pays for a cathedral than if the Atheist buys them all fishing poles and nets...
Re: the last words of Jesus:
Then which gospel is inspired? If we follow the reasoning that a man couldn't write a falsehood if he was inspired, then how could a man write an inaccuracy if he was inspired? Surely GOD heard all the last words, and communicated that fact through His 'inspiration.'
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The government that seems the most unwise, oft goodness to the people best supplies. That which is meddling, touching everything, will work but ill, and disappointment bring. - The Tao Te Ching
It is a good book. It was written by people who were trying to do some good. And it is trying to spread a message of love that many religious organizations completely ignore. They get lost in exactly what you people are discussing. Things that are secondary to the actual message.
If anyone actually believes that the people and committees who wrote, edited, selected, compiled, and produced the Bible over THOUSANDS OF YEARS were ALL inspired by God, (to put down the right words, edit the right sentences, reorder the appropriate sections, delete the correct paragraphs [most of which were due to INNACURACIES IN THE ORIGINAL TEXT, yet "inspired" innacuracies]), then you are blindly following a mass of spoonfed nonsense, as many have said.
Why do people care about these sorts of things? Why do you care about the age of so and so when he took over so and so's kingdom? Is this going to shatter your belief in God and the universe if there are minor contradictions? Will you fall down and die in shock if there is *gasp* an error in the Bible? YOU SHOULDN'T CARE ABOUT THESE THINGS! THEY AREN'T IMPORTANT!
DISCLAIMER: The above beliefs are mine. If you have any problems with them or my attitude, please post submissions in the "Apology for snottiness" thread under my name in the Officer's Lounge. Thank you, and have a nice day.
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"A celibate clergy is an especially good idea because it tends to suppress any hereditary propensity toward fanaticism."
-Eleanor Arroway, "Contact" by Carl Sagan
And you're wrong about the writers. The writers of the New Testament were, in fact, trying to spread the teachings of Isho', which were mostly about love, kindness, &c. But the Old Testament was written partially as a history, and partly to keep a record of the Hebrew laws as attributed to Yahweh, who, at the time, wasn't a very nice guy. The historical parts were partially old myths (Creation, Flood, Exodus, &c.), and partially a record of the "prophets", since the Jews believed their prophecies would eventually be fulfilled. However, the OT, comprising the majority of the bible, was not about "love" and such. It was just about religion.
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"Although, from what I understand, having travelled around the Mid-west quite a bit, apparently Jesus is coming, so I guess the choice now is we should decide whether we should spit or swallow."
-Maynard James Keenan
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"Well if it's gonna be that kind of a party, I'm putting my dick in the mashed potatoes!"
-Nimrod 16/4/2001
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"A celibate clergy is an especially good idea because it tends to suppress any hereditary propensity toward fanaticism."
-Eleanor Arroway, "Contact" by Carl Sagan
And another thing. Parts of the Hebrew Scriptures, Genesis perhaps, may have been passed through oral tradition at one time. In oral tradition, the point is not to memorize the exact words of every story (which you're gonna mix up eventually anyway), but to remember the spirit of the story and how it makes sense to YOU. Thus everyone would have a slightly different story, as the four gospels do, but it doesn't matter because the idea is the same. There is no wisdom in how many people were here at this time. There is no wisdom in which inscription on Jesus's cross was the right one. You talk about giving up earthly things, yet you hang on to numbers and semantics for dear life. If you went to heaven and Jesus said to you, "I died at 34, not 33" or even "The Creation story was a parable"--What would you do? Break down and beg for forgiveness? Do you really think Jesus would care about THAT? You "get" religion, but you can't really grasp Spirituality, can you?
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"I was as dead as a lesbian black chick at a republican fundraiser."
--Burns Flipper, The Longest Journey
[This message has been edited by Tora Ziyal (edited May 02, 2001).]
Also, while we're waiting for the Pope's callback, what about the Eastern Orthodox folks? Or the Coptics? Or heaven forbid, the Gnostics. Though they'll likely just point us toward VALIS.
(See how clever I am? See! VALIS!)
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OH NO< THE OLD MAN WALKS HIS GREEN DOG THAT SHOTS PINBALLS!~!!!
--
Jeff K
****
Read three (three!) chapters of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet" and nothing at all will happen.
" the definition of 'philanthropist' : philo = lover of + anthro = mankind, "
Now who's messing with semantics and definitions, hmm?
I'm the first to admit that an unhealthy obsession with definitions and the like is just that: unhealthy and counterproductive. But there's a time for it, too. Many of the problems in this thread seem to stem from the fact that different posters have different ideas about what the various words mean. Just flicking through, I see disagreements on the meaning of assorted Hebrew words, what 'the Bible' is, and what constitues a contradiction. There is an old saying: "You cannot argue with someone who denies the first principles."
Omega:
Sorry, should have made my request a little more specific. From 1.1 up to the end of Day 1 should be fine, thanks. For no apparent reason, my University library doesn't seem to have a copy of the Bible (or if it does, it's damn well hidden).
TSN:
About "shattering Omega's (blind) faith" as the objective: be careful. Very careful. While you might enjoy "enlightening" him, and could "shatter his faith", you'd likley leave what I've heard referred to as a "God-shaped" gap in his belief system. You wouldn't enlighten him, just make him unhappy. This isn't meant to be a sermon, just a warning that debates like this are playing with things dear to people's hearts.
I know this is going back a bit, but OMega said that Catholics probably wouldn't have an "official" version of the bible, because they tend to do everything in Latin.
Er, you do know that Catholic masses are in English, don't you Omega? Sooooooo, they probably do have an "official" version of the Bible. Or is the priest just suppossed to go to his local market and pick up "Honest Sam's Modern Bible for Dudes" and teach from that?
In fact, if I could be arsed, I'd probably try and find out which one it is. I'd guess it might be the Good News version, but I'm not sure (that seemed to be the one I encountered most at school).
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You know, when Comedy Central asked us to do a Thanksgiving episode, the first thought that went through my mind was, "Boy, I'd like to have sex with Jennifer Aniston."
-Trey Parker, co-creator of South Park
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"A celibate clergy is an especially good idea because it tends to suppress any hereditary propensity toward fanaticism."
-Eleanor Arroway, "Contact" by Carl Sagan
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"Well if it's gonna be that kind of a party, I'm putting my dick in the mashed potatoes!"
-Nimrod 16/4/2001
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"And as it is, it is cheaper than drinking."
-DT on arguing with Omega, April 30
------------------
Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 8.32 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux (with seven eps posted)
***
"Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!"
-Omega 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001
***
Card-Carrying Member of the Flare APAO
***
"I think this reason why girls don't do well on multiple choice tests goes all the way back to the Bible, all the way back to Genesis, Adam and Eve. God said, 'All right, Eve, multiple choice or multiple orgasms, what's it going to be?' We all know what was chosen" - Rush Limbaugh, Feb. 23, 1994.
------------------
"Well if it's gonna be that kind of a party, I'm putting my dick in the mashed potatoes!"
-Nimrod 16/4/2001
quote:
Author Topic: How does the Bible contradict itself?
Omega
Shrapnel Addressed to "Occupant"
Posted April 27, 2001 10:17 AM from 216.80.152.*--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well?
------------------
"Omega is right."
-Jeff Karrde, March 18, 2001 08:47 PM
------------------
"Well if it's gonna be that kind of a party, I'm putting my dick in the mashed potatoes!"
-Nimrod 16/4/2001
------------------
Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 8.32 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux (with seven eps posted)
***
"Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!"
-Omega 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001
***
Card-Carrying Member of the Flare APAO
***
"I think this reason why girls don't do well on multiple choice tests goes all the way back to the Bible, all the way back to Genesis, Adam and Eve. God said, 'All right, Eve, multiple choice or multiple orgasms, what's it going to be?' We all know what was chosen" - Rush Limbaugh, Feb. 23, 1994.
I apologize for the tardiness of my return to this thread. I've been unusually busy for the last couple days. I'd hoped to have time to continue my response to DT tonight, but I had to spend two hours helping my dad install some new web software. Oh, well. Maybe tomorrow, if all goes well. And if anyone's still interested. It looks like DT may have left again, and if no one else wants to hear what I have to say, I may as well not waste my time.
------------------
"How do you define fool?"
"I don't attempt it. I wait for demonstrations. They inevitably surpass my imagination."
- CJ Cherryh, Invader
------------------
Don't kill me, I'm charming!
------------------
"How do you define fool?"
"I don't attempt it. I wait for demonstrations. They inevitably surpass my imagination."
- CJ Cherryh, Invader
I said Omega wasn't right.
------------------
Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 8.32 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux (with seven eps posted)
***
"Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!"
-Omega 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001
***
Card-Carrying Member of the Flare APAO
***
"I think this reason why girls don't do well on multiple choice tests goes all the way back to the Bible, all the way back to Genesis, Adam and Eve. God said, 'All right, Eve, multiple choice or multiple orgasms, what's it going to be?' We all know what was chosen" - Rush Limbaugh, Feb. 23, 1994.
------------------
Don't kill me, I'm charming!
------------------
Don't kill me, I'm charming!
So, just because you still think you're right, it doesn't mean you've won. Everyone else thinks you're wrong.
------------------
"Although, from what I understand, having travelled around the Mid-west quite a bit, apparently Jesus is coming, so I guess the choice now is we should decide whether we should spit or swallow."
-Maynard James Keenan
------------------
"Well if it's gonna be that kind of a party, I'm putting my dick in the mashed potatoes!"
-Nimrod 16/4/2001
------------------
OH NO< THE OLD MAN WALKS HIS GREEN DOG THAT SHOTS PINBALLS!~!!!
--
Jeff K
****
Read three (three!) chapters of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet" and nothing at all will happen.
------------------
You know, when Comedy Central asked us to do a Thanksgiving episode, the first thought that went through my mind was, "Boy, I'd like to have sex with Jennifer Aniston."
-Trey Parker, co-creator of South Park
------------------
"One's ethics are determined by what we do when no one is looking" Nugget
Star Trek: Gamma Quadrant
Star Trek: Legacy
Read them, rate them, got money, film them
"...and I remain on the far side of crazy, I remain the mortal enemy of man, no hundred dollar cure will save me..." WoV
------------------
"How do you define fool?"
"I don't attempt it. I wait for demonstrations. They inevitably surpass my imagination."
- CJ Cherryh, Invader
------------------
Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 8.32 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux (with seven eps posted)
***
"Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!"
-Omega 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001
***
Card-Carrying Member of the Flare APAO
***
"I think this reason why girls don't do well on multiple choice tests goes all the way back to the Bible, all the way back to Genesis, Adam and Eve. God said, 'All right, Eve, multiple choice or multiple orgasms, what's it going to be?' We all know what was chosen" - Rush Limbaugh, Feb. 23, 1994.
Also, this little piece of irony is worth mentioning:
In the (translated to Dutch) version I've got here it says 'And he saw it was good' (in Dutch, of course) in the Genesis creation, except after He creates mankind...
------------------
"We have a good arrangement. He supplies the weapons, I use them."
- Blade
------------------
"Although, from what I understand, having travelled around the Mid-west quite a bit, apparently Jesus is coming, so I guess the choice now is we should decide whether we should spit or swallow."
-Maynard James Keenan
------------------
"How do you define fool?"
"I don't attempt it. I wait for demonstrations. They inevitably surpass my imagination."
- CJ Cherryh, Invader
[This message has been edited by Omega (edited May 05, 2001).]
------------------
"Although, from what I understand, having travelled around the Mid-west quite a bit, apparently Jesus is coming, so I guess the choice now is we should decide whether we should spit or swallow."
-Maynard James Keenan
------------------
"A celibate clergy is an especially good idea because it tends to suppress any hereditary propensity toward fanaticism."
-Eleanor Arroway, "Contact" by Carl Sagan
------------------
"Although, from what I understand, having travelled around the Mid-west quite a bit, apparently Jesus is coming, so I guess the choice now is we should decide whether we should spit or swallow."
-Maynard James Keenan
They sentenced God to death.
------------------
Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 8.32 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux (with seven eps posted)
***
"Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!"
-Omega 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001
***
Card-Carrying Member of the Flare APAO
***
"I think this reason why girls don't do well on multiple choice tests goes all the way back to the Bible, all the way back to Genesis, Adam and Eve. God said, 'All right, Eve, multiple choice or multiple orgasms, what's it going to be?' We all know what was chosen" - Rush Limbaugh, Feb. 23, 1994.
------------------
"Well if it's gonna be that kind of a party, I'm putting my dick in the mashed potatoes!"
-Nimrod 16/4/2001
::shrug::
------------------
Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 8.32 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux (with seven eps posted)
***
"Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!"
-Omega 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001
***
Card-Carrying Member of the Flare APAO
***
"I think this reason why girls don't do well on multiple choice tests goes all the way back to the Bible, all the way back to Genesis, Adam and Eve. God said, 'All right, Eve, multiple choice or multiple orgasms, what's it going to be?' We all know what was chosen" - Rush Limbaugh, Feb. 23, 1994.
Er ... for some reason, that don't quite fly with me.
------------------
Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 8.32 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux (with seven eps posted)
***
"Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!"
-Omega 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001
***
Card-Carrying Member of the Flare APAO
***
"I think this reason why girls don't do well on multiple choice tests goes all the way back to the Bible, all the way back to Genesis, Adam and Eve. God said, 'All right, Eve, multiple choice or multiple orgasms, what's it going to be?' We all know what was chosen" - Rush Limbaugh, Feb. 23, 1994.
------------------
The government that seems the most unwise, oft goodness to the people best supplies. That which is meddling, touching everything, will work but ill, and disappointment bring. - The Tao Te Ching
While God is sitting in his lovely Omnipotent Gardenhouse, 11 million people (and very religious people) are murdered!
Even for an omnipotent being, "They'll learn from it" is a very, very lame excuse.
That is one hell of a learning experience.....
------------------
"One's ethics are determined by what we do when no one is looking" Nugget
Star Trek: Gamma Quadrant
Star Trek: Legacy
Read them, rate them, got money, film them
"...and I remain on the far side of crazy, I remain the mortal enemy of man, no hundred dollar cure will save me..." WoV
But disease, birth defect, and death by natural disaster, THOSE are the "Acts of God" for which only a deity can be held responsible.
You'd stand a better chance of conviction on those.
Like the time when a kid's choir was singing in a church in Kansas and a tornado hit the church and killed a six-year-old girl.
------------------
The government that seems the most unwise, oft goodness to the people best supplies. That which is meddling, touching everything, will work but ill, and disappointment bring. - The Tao Te Ching
------------------
Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 8.32 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux (with seven eps posted)
***
"Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!"
-Omega 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001
***
Card-Carrying Member of the Flare APAO
***
"I think this reason why girls don't do well on multiple choice tests goes all the way back to the Bible, all the way back to Genesis, Adam and Eve. God said, 'All right, Eve, multiple choice or multiple orgasms, what's it going to be?' We all know what was chosen" - Rush Limbaugh, Feb. 23, 1994.
------------------
Lister: "Cat, what are you doing?"
Cat: "I'm courting."
Lister: "Courting who?"
Cat: "Whoever shows up!"
-Red Dwarf, "Me�"
------------------
"One's ethics are determined by what we do when no one is looking" Nugget
Star Trek: Gamma Quadrant
Star Trek: Legacy
Read them, rate them, got money, film them
"...and I remain on the far side of crazy, I remain the mortal enemy of man, no hundred dollar cure will save me..." WoV
------------------
"Well if it's gonna be that kind of a party, I'm putting my dick in the mashed potatoes!"
-Nimrod 16/4/2001
Oh, I see where you're going. Yeah, good analogy. That would make Revelations the advent of God's Planet Killer.
------------------
The government that seems the most unwise, oft goodness to the people best supplies. That which is meddling, touching everything, will work but ill, and disappointment bring. - The Tao Te Ching
This is why people of the faith both impress and frighten me. On the one hand, they can make themselves believe that black is white, because they believe God tells them so. On the other hand, they let themselves believe that black is white, because they think God tells them so.
I'm surprised that no one has brought up Lilith yet. You know, Adam's first wife, the one omitted from the Bible?
------------------
"God's in his heaven. All's right with the world."
[This message has been edited by David Templar (edited May 09, 2001).]
------------------
Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 8.32 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux (with seven eps posted)
***
"Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!"
-Omega 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001
***
Card-Carrying Member of the Flare APAO
***
"I think this reason why girls don't do well on multiple choice tests goes all the way back to the Bible, all the way back to Genesis, Adam and Eve. God said, 'All right, Eve, multiple choice or multiple orgasms, what's it going to be?' We all know what was chosen" - Rush Limbaugh, Feb. 23, 1994.
That was the time of Omega's last post in this thread. Shall this be taken to mean he has given up on defending the Bible against its detractors ... ?
------------------
Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 8.32 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux (with seven eps posted)
***
"Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!"
-Omega 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001
***
Card-Carrying Member of the Flare APAO
***
"I think this reason why girls don't do well on multiple choice tests goes all the way back to the Bible, all the way back to Genesis, Adam and Eve. God said, 'All right, Eve, multiple choice or multiple orgasms, what's it going to be?' We all know what was chosen" - Rush Limbaugh, Feb. 23, 1994.
[This message has been edited by JeffKardde (edited May 09, 2001).]
------------------
"How do you define fool?"
"I don't attempt it. I wait for demonstrations. They inevitably surpass my imagination."
- CJ Cherryh, Invader
------------------
Lister: "Cat, what are you doing?"
Cat: "I'm courting."
Lister: "Courting who?"
Cat: "Whoever shows up!"
-Red Dwarf, "Me�"
------------------
Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 8.32 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux (with seven eps posted)
***
"Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!"
-Omega 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001
***
Card-Carrying Member of the Flare APAO
***
"I think this reason why girls don't do well on multiple choice tests goes all the way back to the Bible, all the way back to Genesis, Adam and Eve. God said, 'All right, Eve, multiple choice or multiple orgasms, what's it going to be?' We all know what was chosen" - Rush Limbaugh, Feb. 23, 1994.
------------------
"Fuck L Ron Hubbard and fuck all his clones.
Fuck all those gun-toting
hip gangster wannabes."
-Tool, Ænima
---
Titan Fleet Yards - Harry Doddema's Star Trek Site
------------------
The government that seems the most unwise, oft goodness to the people best supplies. That which is meddling, touching everything, will work but ill, and disappointment bring. - The Tao Te Ching
------------------
Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 8.32 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux (with seven eps posted)
***
"Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!"
-Omega 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001
***
Card-Carrying Member of the Flare APAO
***
"I think this reason why girls don't do well on multiple choice tests goes all the way back to the Bible, all the way back to Genesis, Adam and Eve. God said, 'All right, Eve, multiple choice or multiple orgasms, what's it going to be?' We all know what was chosen" - Rush Limbaugh, Feb. 23, 1994.
------------------
Don't kill me, I'm charming!
But trying to and then isn't gonna do much for ya...
[This message has been edited by Nimrod (edited May 11, 2001).]
We live for the one, we die for the one, in Jebus's name... >=)
------------------
"God's in his heaven. All's right with the world."
------------------
"Well if it's gonna be that kind of a party, I'm putting my dick in the mashed potatoes!"
-Nimrod 16/4/2001
------------------
"Well if it's gonna be that kind of a party, I'm putting my dick in the mashed potatoes!"
-Nimrod 16/4/2001
------------------
The government that seems the most unwise, oft goodness to the people best supplies. That which is meddling, touching everything, will work but ill, and disappointment bring. - The Tao Te Ching
------------------
Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 8.32 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux (with seven eps posted)
***
"Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!"
-Omega 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001
***
Card-Carrying Member of the Flare APAO
***
"I think this reason why girls don't do well on multiple choice tests goes all the way back to the Bible, all the way back to Genesis, Adam and Eve. God said, 'All right, Eve, multiple choice or multiple orgasms, what's it going to be?' We all know what was chosen" - Rush Limbaugh, Feb. 23, 1994.
------------------
Don't kill me, I'm charming!
Or are ya' calling it quits on this issue? Guess Rob and the others managed to prove their point ... ?
------------------
Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 8.32 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux (with seven eps posted)
***
"Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!"
-Omega 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001
***
Card-Carrying Member of the Flare APAO
***
"I think this reason why girls don't do well on multiple choice tests goes all the way back to the Bible, all the way back to Genesis, Adam and Eve. God said, 'All right, Eve, multiple choice or multiple orgasms, what's it going to be?' We all know what was chosen" - Rush Limbaugh, Feb. 23, 1994.
------------------
"How do you define fool?"
"I don't attempt it. I wait for demonstrations. They inevitably surpass my imagination."
- CJ Cherryh, Invader
I'll be glad to crush your skull 2 times over again. Or 3. Or 4. Or 5. Or 6...........
------------------
"Intelligence People. You guys are unbelievable. You dump a mess like this (that you created) on my lap, and then you come to me whining "Where is our funding"? Well I'll tell you where your funding is. Can you say Health-Care"
- The President of the United States of America, The Long Kiss Goodnight
Where did you get that sig? I don't mean the source (I see you gave a reference) - what does it mean to you?
I'm a hardcore agnostic myself - baptised earlier in life - so I guess I'm apostate. These days, all religions look equally loony to me (Heinlein). But that quote gets me - I laugh every time I see it.
------------------
Faster than light - no left or right.
------------------
It never stops, when my mama ask me will I change
I tell her yeah, but it's clear I'll always be the same
Until the end of time
- Tupac Shakur, Untill the End of Time
I know some people hate when entire songs are posted, but I'm going to do it anyway. *L*
"Ænema", from the Tool album Ænima:
Some say the end is near
Some say we'll see Armageddon soon
Certainly hope we will
I sure could use a vacation from this
Bullshit three-ring circus sideshow of
Freaks here in this
Hopeless fucking
Hole we call L.A.
The only way to
Fix it is to
Flush it all away
Any fucking time
Any fucking day
Learn to swim
See you down in
Arizona Bay
Fret for your figure
And fret for your latte
And fret for your lawsuit
And fret for your hairpiece
And fret for your Prozac
And fret for your pilot
And fret for your contract
And fret for your car, it's a
Bullshit three-ring circus sideshow of
Freaks here in this
Hopeless fucking
Hole we call L.A.
The only way to
Fix it is to
Flush it all away
Any fucking time
Any fucking day
Learn to swim
See you down in
Arizona Bay
Some say a comet will fall from the sky
Followed by meteor showers and tidal waves
Followed by fault lines that cannot sit still
Followed by millions of dumbfounded dipshits
And some say the end is near
Some say we'll see Armageddon soon
Certainly hope we will
I sure could use a vacation from this
Stupid shit
Silly shit
Stupid shit
One great big festering neon distraction
I've a suggestion to keep you all occupied
Learn to swim
Learn to swim
Learn to swim
Mom's gonna fix it all soon
Mom's coming 'round to put it back the way it oughta be
Learn to swim
Fuck L. Ron Hubbard and fuck all his clones
Fuck all these gun-toting hip gangster wanna-bes
Learn to swim
Fuck retro-anything, fuck your tattoos
Fuck all you junkies and fuck your short memory
Learn to swim
Fuck smiley glad-hands with hidden agendas
Fuck these dysfunctional, insecure actresses
Learn to swim
'Cause I'm praying for rain
I'm praying for tidal waves
I wanna see the ground give way
I wanna watch it all go down
Mom, please flush it all away
I wanna see it go right in and down
I wanna watch it go right in
Watch you flush it all away
Time to bring it down again
Don't just call me a pessimist
Try and read between the lines
I can't imagine why you wouldn't
Welcome any change, my friend
I wanna see it come down
Bring it down
Suck it down
Flush it down
------------------
"Even the colors are pompous!"
-a friend of mine, looking at a Lexus brochure
The inscription on the top of the cross is different in FOUR DIFFERENT GOSPELS.
There are no quotation marks in ancient Greek, as I recall. It was not necessarily intended as an exact quote, as it has been translated, but insted to convey what the sign indicated.
re: cock crowing
A number of manuscripts of Mark don't say "twice".
"He reigned three years in Jerusalem. His mother's name also was Michaiah the daughter of Uriel of Gibeah. And there was war between Abijah and Jeroboam."
- II Chronicles 13:2
"And after her he took Maachah the daughter of Absalom; which bare him Abijah, and Attai, and Ziza, and Shelomith."
- II Chronicles 11:20
Well, two apparent contradictions. Abijah is listed as the son of Maacah in chapter 11, and is listed as the son of Michaiah in chapter 13. However, a number of manuscripts, in fact, say, Maacah in chapter 13. It's also possible that this is a reference to BOTH his parents.
Then that leads to another apparent contradiction. Maacah, daughter of Absalom, or Maacah, daughter of Uriel? But the word translated as "daughter" in chapter 13 can also be translated as "granddaughter". Or again, two parents.
Thus, no contradiction.
Matthew 1 attempts to give a geneology of of Jesus. In so doing, he lists 16 generations from the time they were brought into Babylon. Then, in verse 17 he says that from the carrying away into Babylon until Christ there were 14 generations. More fuzzy math.
I only get 14. You're the one using fuzzy math.
1 Jeconiah
2 Shealtiel
3 Zerubbabel
4 Abiud
5 Eliakim
6 Azor
7 Zadok
8 Akim
9 Eliud
10 Eleazar
11 Matthan
12 Jacob
13 Joseph
14 Christ
So did I miss any contradictions already claimed? Any further objections?
(transliterating the Greek names):
1. Dauid
2. Solomon
3. Rhoboam
4. Abia
5. Asaph
6. Iosaphat
7. Ioram
8. Ozias
9. Ioatham
10. Akhax
11. Hezekias
12. Manasses
13. Amos
14. Iosias
15. Iekhonias
That's fifteen, even though he says it should only be fourteen.
quote:
It was not necessarily intended as an exact quote
Then how can the Bible be the exact and literal truth...?
Pardon? It IS the literal truth. Just not the DETAILED literal truth at times. It doesn't tell us what KIND of fish Peter caught when Jesus was around, does it? Yet no one objects.
Tim:
OK, the groups.
1 Abraham
2 Isaac
3 Jacob
4 Judah
5 Perez
6 Hezron
7 Ram
8 Amminadab
9 Nahshon
10 Salmon
11 Boaz
12 Obed
13 Jesse
14 David
1 Solomon
2 Rehoboam
3 Abijah
4 Asa
5 Jehoshaphat
6 Jehoram
7 Uzziah
8 Jotham
9 Ahaz
10 Hezekiah
11 Manasseh
12 Amon
13 Josiah
14 Jeconiah
And since Jeconiah lived through the dividing line (whereas previously, David WAS the dividing line), he counts in both groups.
1 Jeconiah
2 Shealtiel
3 Zerubbabel
4 Abiud
5 Eliakim
6 Azor
7 Zadok
8 Akim
9 Eliud
10 Eleazar
11 Matthan
12 Jacob
13 Joseph
14 Christ
You ALWAYS fall back on metaphor, simile, and supposition in these instances, which is the diametric OPPOSITE of literal truth.
You've talked yourself into an untenable position.
You've talked yourself into an untenable position.
Single statements can be metaphoric. Entire stories aren't. The BIBLE isn't metaphoric, as Eclipse implied, but certain sections of it are: parables, bits of Revelation, et al. I point this out every time, Rob, and you never seem to remember.
A bat is not a bird.
Who said it was?
The Sun doesn't hang still in the sky
As a general rule, no, but major atmospheric distortion can do amazing things to your perception of astronomical objects. Not to mention the possibility of localized temporal distortion. Omnipotence is nifty.
The end didn't come in JC's followers' lifetimes, despite his promise.
He made no such promise.
quote:
It IS the literal truth. Just not the DETAILED literal truth at times.
A statement that is not sufficiently detailed to be unambiguous is simply wrong.
A good test for whether a statment is well-formed (short of going through all the logical rigmarole) is to try and write it as a computer program. Trust me, the C++ version of Genesis is utter nonsense - it does not make sense.
10 If $Scripture = Utterly Accurate Statements + Detail
20 Then Bibble = Omnipotence + Inspiration
30 Else Hogwash GOTO Trash
If bits of Revelations are metaphorical, why aren't bits of Genesis?
Because Revelation is a story of a vision being told by John. "And I saw..." Genesis isn't. It's intended as a historical record. Now if it was Moses saying, "And God showed me a vision of the beginning, and I saw that the earh was formless and void..." I'd certainly go along with the possibility of metaphor.
Tim:
It points out this coincidence of fourteen generations between all these important events. But, if you change the method of counting, the coincidence doesn't exist.
There was no such coincidence. There were more generations in there (except for the first group, where it says "in all"). It's a Hebrew poetical thing, and doesn't translate well. Matthew primarily wrote to the Jews, and they apparently liked this sort of thing. This isn't intended to be every single generation, but the 14 most important in the three time periods.
Eclipse:
A statement that is not sufficiently detailed to be unambiguous is simply wrong.
I disagree. Rob, you're the english major, you set him straight.
quote:
Genesis isn't. It's intended as a historical record.
Can't be. Nobody was around to write about it at the time, and there are HARDLY and primary sources available. Adam didn't keep a journal. "History of the First Seven Days, by YHWH" isn't lying around in big granite tablets anywhere. The oldest records aren't even a significant FRACTION of the age of the world, even when measured by the ludicrous Creationist timetable.
Genesis isn't any more of an historical record than Kipling's "Just So" stories or the Epic of Gilgamesh, or any other of the thousand or so Creation myths.
quote:
A statement that is not sufficiently detailed to be unambiguous is simply wrong
Not necessarily. However, from a historical or scientific point of view, it is worthless as a source of information.
quote:
Originally posted by First of Two:Not necessarily. However, from a historical or scientific point of view, it [an insufficiently detailed statement] is worthless as a source of information.
:: raises hands ::
All right, I admit the desire to try to get in a vehement one-liner got the better of me there. You are, of course, quite right in saying that it is merely useless, rather than wrong (though it might well be wrong, too). If I'd taken another 30 seconds to post I'd have said as much.
This, of course, raises the thorny issue of whether a true statement is true before it is proven....