I wonder if anyone in the US has heard about the Terrorist attack on the resort island of Bali in the last 12 hours? 182 (many Australians) are possibly dead, 300 are at least injured. Two bombs went off outside night-clubs (both across the road from each other in Bali). I wonder if the American news stations have reported anything about that? I know when looking at Fox News - they were talking about Iraq or J-Lo - one of the two. CNN had Larry King interviewing the star of Battleground Earth. BBC World was reviewing the weeks events.
Posted by EdipisReks (Member # 510) on :
it's the main story on both CNN.com and MSNBC.com, so....what's your point?
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
Well, over here (UK) both BBC News and ITN have been covering it in quite some detail. The BBc refered to News 24 so I assume thy've got it on as well.
Posted by Veers (Member # 661) on :
The death toll is up to nearly 200 people now...when I went to bed it was 50. All I have to say is, it's either Abu Sayyaf or al Qaeda. And if it can happen in Indonesia, it can happen in America.
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
Well, it was almost certainly an Islamic group, bali is a predominantly Hindu island and thy targeted Westerners. I know there has been some speculation in the press that the recent messages from bin Laden and that othere guy whose name I forget on Al- Jazeera have been to activate terrorist attacks.
Have they worked out whether that French ship was the victim of an attck yet?
Posted by Nimpim (Member # 205) on :
At least one swedish person dead, many injured. All over news here too...
Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
Well, it has happened in America, if you will remember that the WTC was targeted twice....
And to think, it is only going to get worse....
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
British death toll 'may rise to six' according to teletext.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
There was a bombing in Finland not too long ago. Not the act of organized international terrorists, though, apparently.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
I saw on Sky News last night a graphic with flags...
Indonesians (of course) then next highest toll was Australians... at the moment 13 Australians have been confirmed dead.
Their graphic had flags for (off the top of my head)
Indonesia, Australia, UK, Hong Kong, Belgium, Germany, France, New Zealand at least.
Disgusting shits. I heard where one bomb went off infront of a night-club across the street from the Sari Club - then a huge bomb went off right infront of the Sari club... the blast was felt 2km away. There was a person who had arrived home to Perth this morning who said he and a group of friends were on the footpath outside the Sari Club - some of his friends were killed (I think) but him and another friend were thrown back by the blast and were covered in human bodies. They had to pick the body parts off them to get up!
Anyway - the first blast would have made people leave the night-clubs and enter onto the street - where that second bomb would have gone off - getting more people. Arseholes. How coldly calculated is that!?!
Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
As far as a plan goes, it seemed to have worked out quite nicely.
Posted by Veers (Member # 661) on :
Wraith--Yemeni, French, and American investigators all believe the French tanker explosion was a terrorist attack. Bits of fiberglass from a small boat were found in the wrecked ship, as well as traces of TNT. It's similar to the attack on the USS Cole. Only one person was killed.
Posted by newark (Member # 888) on :
The history of warfare is of humans improving ability to efficiently kill other humans. Over thousands of years, humans have progressed from rocks to smart bombs. Our methods of killing are more efficient and devasting than those of our ancestors.
I see a similiar pattern in the use of terrorism. In the first recorded instances of terrorism, the methods were crude and inefficient. For instance, in 1921, white extremists in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma dropped bombs at blacks from an airplane. Luckily, the bombs did minimal damage and no blacks were killed. Decades later, terrorists flew airplances into buildings and killed thousands.
The terrorists are improving in their attacks, and I fear we may see a city destroyed completely and utterly by an attack in our lifetime. We are in a war which will be exacerbated by an arrogant and brash administration.
Posted by Tahna Los (Member # 33) on :
Exacerbated?
Not necessarily. You have to remember that Bush has not spent that much time as President. How long have Mr. Atta and Mr. Al-Shehhi have planned for the WTC attacks? Something like that would have taken years to accomplish.
If anything, this only proves that targeting civilians is the soup-du-jour. Why not follow in the footsteps of their so-called "heroes" by blowing up a couple of hundred on your own?
But yes, the present U.S. administration had better watch their attacks. It is better to do this with cooperation rather than the "go-it-alone" approach which could cause a lot of problems on a global scale.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
The recent Finnish bombing of a mall was another of those "lone loonie builds bomb at garage and wants to test" things, apparently. The bastard got killed in the blast himself. Five other dead, one a young girl. About thirty seriously wounded. No political or other exterior motivation to the deed has been uncovered so far.
Another blast, a car bomb, was given more international coverage because it happened near a synagoga in our capital. What the international press failed to realize was that in our capital, no matter where exactly something takes place, it's *always* near the synagoga, or the parliament building, or the presidential palace, or the US embassy. Helsinki just isn't that big a city.
That car bomb was an organized crime revenge. The first of its kind in Finland, although some motorcycle gangs have played with hand grenades before, and there have been disgruntled citizens placing TNT in front of police stations or the local equivalent of IRS headquarters.
Like in the mall bombing, the car bomber nailed himself as well - he had a remote detonation system which lacked in range, so he had to drive past his victim, and the blast threw his own car onto the sidewalk. Can you really call that sort of crime "organized"?
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
I'm kind of surprised the Russian mafia is not more heavily engaged in Finland. Timo, I insist on an essay on this topic! Posted by Daryus Aden (Member # 12) on :
Just out of curiosity, have Al Queda and their other terrorist pals many any formal declaration of what it will take to stop the bombings?
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Ahem, lessee...
Too fresh a market, too swift a move-in. No room for expansion, so no incentive to fight for that room, either.
Up till the late eighties, we had virtually zero street prositution. The few big brothels were secretly run by state bigwigs, not by profit-making illegal organizations. Then the former Soviet borders opened up. Now the prostitutes come mainly from or through Estonia, and the organizations that run the business reside there, and car-bomb each other there. Finland is just where the actual beds are, so there's nothing worth bombing on this end.
Drugs aren't worth fighting over, either. Finland is not a big enough market, and what goes through here in one direction or another is peanuts compared with eastern Europe. And there's lots of extra expenses in attempting to corrupt the Finnish police - which, unlike the colleagues farther south, isn't short of money by any standard. I think Nordic cops are among the cleanest in Europe. And Finland is the least corrupted country in the world, according to Transparency Int'l.
Motorcycle gangs make noise and sometimes kill each other. But they aren't organized beyond their silly banners. Nor is there the sort of commercial terrorism that plagues some parts of Europe, like the "Dagobert" ("Scrooge McDuck") poisoner of Germany. Business extortion is small-scale and not very serious because it can't be easily kept hidden - the silence of the shopkeeper will guarantee nothing in an open enough society. So payments will be one-off at most and then the gig is up.
About the only area where the Russian mafia actively operates is car theft. And even though our border is very long and very lightly guarded, it's damn difficult to get the cars across - there aren't any side roads to use (at least not if you want the cars to arrive semi-intact), and the checkpoints on the main roads are finally getting their act together now. It's much easier to take the cars through central and eastern Europe.
Timo Saloniemi
[ October 14, 2002, 05:40: Message edited by: Timo ]
Posted by EdipisReks (Member # 510) on :
sounds like a pretty nice place to live, Timo.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Unfortunately, it's no Bali. &
And I doubt being a small market or an insignificant corner will protect us for long. What matters is whether a connection, however slight, can be made between your desired target and the nearest available punching bag. Ya know, a friend of a friend of mine returned from China just after the bombings of the Belgrad embassy. She'd been accosted by a local mob that didn't settle for the "no" she gave to the question of whether she was American. The mob leader actually rolled out a list of NATO countries and checked whether Finland was on that list...
(And politely bowed and left when it wasn't. I just hope mobs everywhere were that organized!)
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
At least 18 Australians identified confirmed dead, at least 1 Kiwi and at least 10 "Britons" - it had on Sky News - that's English or UK people?
At least 188 or something confirmed dead, 200 missing... 300 injured.
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
Now up to 33 Brits dead possibly, of which 18 confirmed. Indonesian defense minister has said it was al- Qeada but no real evidence yet (apparently). Aussie police and FBI already over there and a team from Scotland Yard is flyinf out.
Posted by newark (Member # 888) on :
I chose the word "exacerberated" carefully.
In the history of US-World relations, our government has formented lingering resentments. Our US government has by political necessity committed acts which were brutal and oppressive in the name of democratic principles. The consequences of these acts, in the long term, have often resulted in assaults on Americans.
Our government at this time is implementing a new strategy in the name of democratic principles-the Bush Doctrine of pre-emption. This doctrine, due for testing in Iraq this winter, will help support the claims of the despotic governments, which our government supports, that the US is determined in its will to spread Western principles on an unwilling and captive population. The populace of these nations, being largely illiterate and living in deplorable conditions, will have one more thing added to the list of 'crimes' done in the name of America and democracy. Fueled by anger and frustration, the more radical individuals will brew more terrifying attacks in their small circles and will strike us.
(Our war in Afghanistan is a failure. Reports are appearing now in the press which suggest very strongly that thousands of Al Queda and Taliban had escaped from Tora Bora. Apparently, the administration afraid of negarive publicity arising from dead Americans planned attacks with the least involvement possible from the soldiers and air crews fighting in this Asian country. Expectations were the Afghans would do the work of the Americans-the killing and the dying. This didn't happen.
If the Wolfiwitzs and the Rumsfields and the Cheneys of this administration desire a Pax Americana, they have got to realize a very important fact. The great empires of the past, the British and the Roman, employed for the majority of cases their own troops in battle. If you are going to build an empire, then you must be willing to accept losses in lives and property.)
Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :
Bleh.
The US invaded and occupied Japan, and deposed their Emperor, overturning their culture overnight, and you can see how much they hate us now, and how angry they are and in what deplorable social and economic conditions they live.
The most recent UN reports suggest that the one great improver in the condition of the world in the past two decades has been increased freedoms. In countries whioch have become more democratic, the standard of living has increased dramatically. In countries which have stayes authoritarian or become moreso (Sub-saharan Africa, for a few examples) the standard of living has remained stagnant or even decreased.
When the US destroys and replaces the government of Iraq with a more democratic regime, the standard of living in Iraq will rise. This will destabilize the authoritarian countries nearby, resulting in a trend towards further creation of more democratic regimes... with or without help.
"Stability" in the region is only good if it benefits the many, not the few. Positive change rarely comes about in a stable environment.
Posted by Tahna Los (Member # 33) on :
Some Japs still hate the Americans, First.
We have several instances where a U.S. Marine Truck hit and killed a Japanese teenager, a rape commited by U.S. Military men, and possibly others. In these and similar instances, there were major protests against the American Government. The point is that there are still some unstable elements inside Japan who would love to start a lot of Anti-American sentiment and turn Japan against the U.S.
It would be improper to justify the invasion of a country by saying that it has benefited a nation. Palestine has never benefited from what it calls the unjustified takeover of its nation.
Hell, you should invade Canada by saying that Canada would benefit under American Rule. After all, most Americans are jealous of Canadians, this would provide you with the opportunity to crush your hated neighbours to the north.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"...and at least 10 "Britons" - it had on Sky News - that's English or UK people?"
A Briton, astoundingly enough, is a person from Britain. "Britain" being a shortened form of "Great Britain", that being a large island on which are located England, Scotland, and Wales.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Thank you Timo, that was very interesting. Post-Soviet issues are fascinating. Bruce Sterling wrote a story called "The Littlest Jackal" about certain Russian mafia types engaged in various affairs in Finland, which was sort of on my mind at the time I asked.
Anyway, I suggest this be kept a bit more civil, eh? Does every terrible act in the world have to be immediately twisted into a debate about some ideology, or can we spare a few moments for some kindness?
Posted by Free ThoughtCrime America (Member # 480) on :
quote: After all, most Americans are jealous of Canadians
This is news to me.
Posted by EdipisReks (Member # 510) on :
news to me too. i can't feel envious of any country that produces labatt blue.
Posted by O Captain Mike Captain (Member # 709) on :
i think Canada's making a lot of progress ok so i just didnt get to show this image off enough when i first made it.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tahna Los: Some Japs still hate the Americans, First.
You are never again allowed to make fun of Bush using the term "Pakis".
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by TSN: A Briton, astoundingly enough, is a person from Britain. "Britain" being a shortened form of "Great Britain", that being a large island on which are located England, Scotland, and Wales.
Although technically right, "Briton" does usually include someone from Northern Ireland as well. Yes, I know that technically the name is "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland", but in 99% of cases, Great Britain and the UK are interchangable terms.
This doesn't stop you from being a bit silly for not being able to figure the term out Andy-boy. I want an essay on sillyness on my desk first thing tomorrow. And one on postscript writing too.
Posted by O Captain Mike Captain (Member # 709) on :
funny, where i grew up 'Paki' is what we called the liquor store.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
quote:Originally posted by TSN:
"...and at least 10 "Britons" - it had on Sky News - that's English or UK people?"
A Briton, astoundingly enough, is a person from Britain. "Britain" being a shortened form of "Great Britain", that being a large island on which are located England, Scotland, and Wales.
Yeah thanks for that pound of sarcasm TSN. Sheesh. I fucking knew you're patronising definition. Traditionally Britons were a Celtic people living in roughly the area now known as England. Of course they didn't mean them - but I though they could have still ment solely 'English' and not necessarily any others from Wales, Scotland, Isle of Man, Jersy, Guernsey etc. etc.
Andrew
Posted by Daryus Aden (Member # 12) on :
FO2, I suggest you do some research and look at the living standards of Iraqi's before America began its glorious & righteous war. They were actually quite good. Though I'm sure you'll find some source or the other that says otherwise.
Posted by EdipisReks (Member # 510) on :
yeah, poisonous gas falling from the sky is freaking great living condition.
Posted by E. Cartman (Member # 256) on :
And an arguably better one than clouds of radioactive dust falling from said sky.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by O Captain Mike Captain: funny, where i grew up 'Paki' is what we called the liquor store.
Out of a sense of curiousity and dread, were they mainly staffed by people of Indian or Pakistani decent?
Posted by O Captain Mike Captain (Member # 709) on :
nope. none of them in the woods. 'packy' was short for 'package store'
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Gotcha.
Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :
quote:FO2, I suggest you do some research and look at the living standards of Iraqi's before America began its glorious & righteous war. They were actually quite good. Though I'm sure you'll find some source or the other that says otherwise.
Since you're the expert on Iraqi living conditions, why don't you post the information you so obviously have that the rest of us don't?
Oh, and that info you have wouldn't happen to be before Iraq's glorious and righteous war against Iran, or it's glorious and righteous invasion of Kuwait, would it?
And then please tell it to the gassed Kurds and the gassed Shiites. I'd like to see the survivors' reactions.
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
quote: gassed Shiites
Hehehe Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
I'll bring up the Iraqi woman that I met in Marysville. She said life sucked, because for the decade prior to Bush the First the Iranians had been attacking. I will ask her, or her kids, one of which was eight and may remember the Post-Bush the First era, to post here....
Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :
The IRANIANS had been attacking?
Flaw right there. Every history of the Iran-Iraq War I can find has Iraq invading first, on Sept. 22, 1980.
Maybe she means after 1982, and up to 1987, when the Iranians drove out the Iraqis and started to invade Iraqi terrotory.
Well, since she was getting bombed I would also think that it was the later part of the war....
Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :
Still, in the interests of accuracy, Iraq started the war. Her getting bombed is thusly a result of Saddam Hussein's "leadership."
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
On the subject of Iraqi living conditions; they must be quite good as no one in the entire country was ill on election day. Or had died between voter registration and election day. Amazing; they must have a fantastic health care system.
Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
Well, yes, but I don't think that she had said anything nice about SH.... Regarding my earlier post...
I am going to ask her to give me more info, or post here herself, on the living conditions, which was the topic of the moment at the time, I do believe. She's doesn't like SH, or Bush the Second, and having lived under both styles of leadership, I will not both her about why and all that...
As I was relaying, the civilian lifestyle did suck before Bush the First, the Coalition, and the UN instituted it embargo resolutions.
Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on :
It occurred to me, that perhaps now the rest of the world won't be seen by thousands of Aussie backpackers as their personal vacation spot. . .
"G'Day, mAYte! Let's gAOW! KAHbul got liberAYted FOIVE minutes agAOW! There's BAHND ta be an AHtback BAHr thEYAH by nAOW!"
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
& 
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)