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Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on :
 
They're trying to make Saddam laugh his head off!

http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-1085069,00.html

First you had the Sea Knight crash - 12 dead. Then the Royal Navy proved their complete inability to lauch 2 Sea Kings from a carrier without them crashing into each other. Another 8 people dead.

Then a GR4 had the misfortune to be mistaken for a MIG by a Patriot missile battery. Granted, of all the Coalition's combat aircraft, the Tornado looks the most MIGgy; even then the more cynical among us (i.e. me) would maybe wonder if the significant factor was that it wasn't an American aircraft they detected.

But then you have today's incident. No news yet of the crew, I hope they're OK. But. . . all this would be comical if it wasn't so tragic. In fact, it's still comical. It transcends even the Gulf War I incident when an MP demonstrated the safety-catch on his sidearm by pointing it at his head and. . . you get the picture.

Add in that guy from the 101st going postal, US and UK patrols wandering off and being ambushed and captured, an Apache being either shot down by farmers or suffering mechanical failure in the heat of battle (which is more embarrassing?), the ITN reporters and the Syrian bus hit by US fire, and I just have to ask - WHAT THE FUCK IS GOING ON?! Didn't they learn anything from 12 years ago?
 
Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
 
"The jet fired a high speed anti-radiation missile which damaged the battery's radar before it could launch a missile."

Was the pilot afraid the enemy AA-battery would fire nuclear warheads at him? Isn't that a tad overkill?
Or was it incompetence by the reporter and this was an anti-radar missile?
 
Posted by Kosh (Member # 167) on :
 
quote:

Then a GR4 had the misfortune to be mistaken for a MIG by a Patriot missile battery. Granted, of all the Coalition's combat aircraft, the Tornado looks the most MIGgy; even then the more cynical among us (i.e. me) would maybe wonder if the significant factor was that it wasn't an American aircraft they detected.

I don't think the Patroits can tell the difference between a jet fighter and a rock, much less between Brittish and American jets.
 
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
 
Lucky the Canadians aren't fighting in Iraq, or we'd have wiped them out by now.
 
Posted by Saltah'na (Member # 33) on :
 
GWB: "I, uh, hope we did the right thing."
 
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
 
Why is this here? Its outcome cannot make me happy. Thus, I wield wide-ranging powers to squelch it, lording over my fiefdom in a tyrannical manner.
 
Posted by Kosh (Member # 167) on :
 
Today Iraq, tomorrow, the Officer's Lounge.
 
Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
 
mmmm, RADAR emits radiation, electro-magnetic, which, as it is put out as a signal, would work for homing in on, then I suppose both are correct.

Remember, when someone fires a missile at you it is a big IFF.... bad humor, yes...

The rock would have to be propelled a bit.

Screw Rome, all roads lead to Bagdad.
 
Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on :
 
Latest foul-ups: one Challenger 2 shoots at another, two more British soldiers dead. And reports (as yet unconfirmed) that a 'US missile' has killed 15 people in a Baghdad market.
 
Posted by Warped1701 (Member # 40) on :
 
quote:
And reports (as yet unconfirmed) that a 'US missile' has killed 15 people in a Baghdad market
Perhaps this will make the Iraqi's realize that the war is a fruit-less endeavour.
 
Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
 
Well, it will be, if it was our missile, or SH having his people bomb it, if all the markets are taken out the fruits of war would be gone....

If I don't see a live video of an explosion destroying a 'civilian' target then I have my doubts, which I guess I should, since Saddam is such an honest caring man to all of the people living in Iraq. Considering the source 'we' must habe made a mistake.
 
Posted by Epoch (Member # 136) on :
 
They are called anti-radiation missiles or more specifically HARMs (High-speed Anti-Radiation Missiles).

http://www.raytheon.com/products/harm/
 
Posted by Cartmaniac (Member # 256) on :
 
"If I don't see a live video of an explosion destroying a 'civilian' target then I have my doubts"

Yeah, because NO missiles have EVER accidentally or deliberately impacted on civilian targets before... oh, wait.
 
Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on :
 
And of course telling the media in advance that they needed to be there to cover the tragedy would rather give the game away.

12 years ago there were suggestions that Saddam's minions had faked accidental bombings and murdered innocent people to provide the bodycount. To my knowledge no such a allegations have ever been substantiated despite many high-level Iraqi defections since then.

Would they? Yes. Could they? Yes. Could they do it and get away with it? Probably not. It's not like it's a staged border incident in Germany in 1939. People are more cynical, and mass-media/communications more developed.
 
Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
 
I did not say that I don't believe it, just that I have my doubts. An artillery piece outside the city can be fired in to it, aiming for a general residential area, during an attack. Gee, an explosion during a raid, must have been the Americans. Which would aid SHs goal of getting his people to fight to the death, keeping him in power even half a second longer per life is acceptable to him. Yes, that last bit was going out slightly on to the limb, but not to far.

Now, if a weapon was mis-aimed, or malfunctioned, and the military actually tells anyone that they tracked it and all that, then we can make amends later, as right now it is kind of difficult to do so.

Now, while accidents happen, and we feel bad (believe it or not) when they happen, it does seem that the military is attempting to keep them to a minimum.
 
Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on :
 
If what we've seen so far is "keeping accidents to a minimum," then I'd be happier if they all just started pointing their guns at their heads a la the hapless MP in 1990. The Coalition's own-goal bodycount would drop appreciably. 8)
 
Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
 
Well, accidents involving Iraqi civilians, I guess they are leaving the door open for the others....
 
Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on :
 
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,926237,00.html
 
Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
 
Hey, the article says we are doing better than the Iraqis.... 5 to 4, US up by 1

18 x 12 inches, big flag

Let's have an investigation and see what the hell the pilots problem was, or is. The good thing is it won't be a UN one, so it should go relatively quick.
 
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
 
I'm getting a strange sense of deja vu....

Oh, yeah- almost exactly the same thing happened last time!!! It might, of course, help if the US actually bothered to properly train its troops; or would that be too much trouble?
 
Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
 
Hello? Where's the fun in that?
For your information, my polls clearly show that the people don't want short decisive skirmishes,
they want proper long, satellite-guided, digitally crisp TV-wars!
Wars you can eat dinner to! *Yaay!*
Wars you can chat with your friendly milk man about! *Yaay!*
Wars that spawn savvy and catching codenames, like "Operation Wolf", "Operation Righteous Wrath",
"Operation Soiled Towel Head" and of course "Operation to Bring Powell and our Boys Back".
 
Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on :
 
My current theory is, last Gulf War, the pilot had a doctor's appointment the day they committed those atrocities against the retreating Iraqi columns, so he's missed all the fun and he's been teased by all the other pilots ever since. So the only way he could regain his honour was to strafe some Brits.
 
Posted by Epoch (Member # 136) on :
 
Wraith get off your high horse. US troops are some of the best trained in the world. Training isn't everything and mistakes are made. Just a little food for thought. This comes from the same article.

"Another two British soldiers were killed when their Challenger 2 Main Battle tank was engaged by another British tank west of Basra."

Looks like US troops aren't the only ones that kill friendlies.
 
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
 
I thought tanks had IFFs.
 
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
 
Some of it may also be due to the soldiers' starting to crack. This is an article from the Times (the British paper) that I saw reposted somewhere. The Times' site appears to require a paid registration to view it there.

US Marines turn fire on civilians at the bridge of death

Mark Franchetti, Nasiriya

THE light was a strange yellowy grey and the wind was coming up, the beginnings of a sandstorm. The silence felt almost eerie after a night of shooting so intense it hurt the eardrums and shattered the nerves. My footsteps felt heavy on the hot, dusty asphalt as I walked slowly towards the bridge at Nasiriya. A horrific scene lay ahead.

Some 15 vehicles, including a minivan and a couple of trucks, blocked the road. They were riddled with bullet holes. Some had caught fire and turned into piles of black twisted metal. Others were still burning.

Amid the wreckage I counted 12 dead civilians, lying in the road or in nearby ditches. All had been trying to leave this southern town overnight, probably for fear of being killed by US helicopter attacks and heavy artillery. Their mistake had been to flee over a bridge that is crucial to the coalition's supply lines and to run into a group of shell-shocked young American marines with orders to shoot anything that moved. One man's body was still in flames. It gave out a hissing sound. Tucked away in his breast pocket, thick wads of banknotes were turning to ashes. His savings, perhaps.

Down the road, a little girl, no older than five and dressed in a pretty orange and gold dress, lay dead in a ditch next to the body of a man who may have been her father. Half his head was missing. Nearby, in a battered old Volga, peppered with ammunition holes, an Iraqi woman - perhaps the girl's mother - was dead, slumped in the back seat. A US Abrams tank nicknamed Ghetto Fabulous drove past the bodies.

This was not the only family who had taken what they thought was a last chance for safety. A father, baby girl and boy lay in a shallow grave. On the bridge itself a dead Iraqi civilian lay next to the carcass of a donkey. As I walked away, Lieutenant Matt Martin, whose third child, Isabella, was born while he was on board ship en route to the Gulf, appeared beside me. "Did you see all that?" he asked, his eyes filled with tears. "Did you see that little baby girl? I carried her body and buried it as best I could but I had no time. It really gets to me to see children being killed like this, but we had no choice." Martin's distress was in contrast to the bitter satisfaction of some of his fellow marines as they surveyed the scene. "The Iraqis are sick people and we are the chemotherapy," said Corporal Ryan Dupre. "I am starting to hate this country. Wait till I get hold of a friggin' Iraqi. No, I won't get hold of one. I'll just kill him."

Only a few days earlier these had still been the bright-eyed small-town boys with whom I crossed the border at the start of the operation. They had rolled towards Nasiriya, a strategic city beside the Euphrates, on a mission to secure a safe supply route for troops on the way to Baghdad. They had expected a welcome, or at least a swift surrender. Instead they had found themselves lured into a bloody battle, culminating in the worst coalition losses of the war - 16 dead, 12 wounded and two missing marines as well as five dead and 12 missing servicemen from an army convoy - and the humiliation of having prisoners paraded on Iraqi television.

There are three key bridges at Nasiriya. The feat of Martin, Dupre and their fellow marines in securing them under heavy fire was compared by armchair strategists last week to the seizure of the Remagen bridge over the Rhine, which significantly advanced victory over Germany in the second world war.

But it was also the turning point when the jovial band of brothers from America lost all their assumptions about the war and became jittery aggressors who talked of wanting to "nuke" the place. None of this was foreseen at Camp Shoup, one of the marines' tent encampments in northern Kuwait, where officers from the 1st and 2nd battalions of Task Force Tarawa, the 7,000-strong US Marines brigade, spent long evenings poring over maps and satellite imagery before the invasion. The plan seemed straightforward. The marines would speed unhindered over the 130 miles of desert up from the Kuwaiti border and approach Nasiriya from the southeast to secure a bridge over the Euphrates. They would then drive north through the outskirts of Nasiriya to a second bridge, over the Inahr al-Furbati canal. Finally, they would turn west and secure the third bridge, also over the canal. The marines would not enter the city proper, let alone attempt to take it.

The coalition could then start moving thousands of troops and logistical support units up highway 7, leading to Baghdad, 225 miles to the north. There was only one concern: "ambush alley", the road connecting the first two bridges. But intelligence suggested there would be little or no fighting as this eastern side of the city was mostly "pro-American".

I was with Alpha company. We reached the outskirts of Nasiriya at about breakfast time last Sunday. Some marines were disappointed to be carrying out a mission that seemed a sideshow to the main effort. But in an ominous sign of things to come, our battalion stopped in its tracks, three miles outside the city. Bad news filtered back. Earlier that morning a US Army convoy had been greeted by a group of Iraqis dressed in civilian clothes, apparently wanting to surrender. When the American soldiers stopped, the Iraqis pulled out AK-47s and sprayed the US trucks with gunfire.

Five wounded soldiers were rescued by our convoy, including one who had been shot four times. The attackers were believed to be members of the Fedayeen Saddam, a group of 15,000 fighters under the command of Saddam's psychopathic son Uday. Blown-up tyres, a pool of blood, spent ammunition and shards of glass from the bulletridden windscreen marked the spot where the ambush had taken place. Swiftly, our AAVs (23-ton amphibious assault vehicles) took up defensive positions. About 100 marines jumped out of their vehicles and took cover in ditches, pointing their sights at a mud-caked house. Was it harbouring gunmen? Small groups of marines approached, cautiously, to search for the enemy. A dozen terrified civilians, mainly women and children, emerged with their hands raised. "It's just a bunch of Hajis," said one gunner from his turret, using their nickname for Arabs. "Friggin' women and children, that's all."

Cobras and Huey attack helicopters began firing missiles at targets on the edge of the city. Plumes of smoke rose as heavy artillery shook the ground under our feet. Heavy machinegun fire echoed across the huge rubbish dump that marks the entrance to Nasiriya. Suddenly there was return fire from three large oil tanks at a refinery. The Cobras were called back, and within seconds they roared above our heads, firing off missiles in clouds of purple tracer fire. There were several loud explosions. Flames burst high into the sky from one of the oil tanks. The marines believed that what opposition there was had now been crushed. "We are going in, we are going in," shouted one of the officers.

More than 20 AAVs, several tanks and about 10 Hummers equipped with roof-mounted, anti-tank missile launchers prepared to move in. Crammed inside them were some 400 marines. Tension rose as they loaded their guns and stuck their heads over the side of the AAVs through the open roof, their M-16 pointed in all directions. As we set off towards the eastern city gate there was no sense of the mayhem awaiting us down the road. A few locals dressed in rags watched the awesome spectacle of America's war machine on the move. Nobody waved.

Slowly we approached the first bridge. Fires were raging on either side of the road; Cobras had destroyed an Iraqi military truck and a T55 tank positioned inside a dugout. Powerful explosions came from inside the bowels of the tank as its ammunition and heavy shells were set off by the fire. With each explosion a thick and perfect ring of black smoke ring puffed out of the turret. An Iraqi defence post lay abandoned. Cobras flew over an oasis of palm trees and deserted brick and mud-caked houses. We charged onto the bridge, and as we crossed the Euphrates, a large mural of Saddam came into view. Some marines reached for their disposable cameras.

Suddenly, as we approached ambush alley on the far side of the bridge, the crackle of AK-47s broke out. Our AAVs began to zigzag to avoid being hit by a rocket-propelled grenade (RPG). The road widened out to a square, with a mosque and the portrait of Saddam on the left-hand side. The vehicles wheeled round, took up a defensive position, back to back, and began taking fire. Pinned down, the marines fired back with 40mm automatic grenade launchers, a weapon so powerful it can go through thick brick walls and kill anyone within a 5-yard range of where the shell lands.

I was in AAV number A304, affectionately nicknamed the Desert Caddy. It shook as Keith Bernize, the gunner, fired off round after deafening round at sandbag positions shielding suspected Fedayeen fighters. His steel ammunition box clanged with the sound of smoking empty shells and cartridges. Bernize, who always carries a scan picture of his unborn baby daughter with him, shot at the targets from behind a turret, peering through narrow slits of reinforced glass. He shouted at his men to feed him more ammunition. Four marines, standing at the AAV's four corners, precariously perched on ammunition boxes, fired off their M-16s. Their faces covered in sweat, officers shouted commands into field radios, giving co-ordinates of enemy positions. Some 200 marines, fully exposed to enemy fire and slowed down by their heavy weapons, bulky ammunition packs and NBC suits, ran across the road, taking shelter behind a long brick wall and mounds of earth. A team of snipers appeared, yards from our vehicle.

The exchange of fire was relentless. We were pinned down for more than three hours as Iraqis hiding inside houses and a hospital and behind street corners fired a barrage of ammunition. Despite the marines' overwhelming firepower, hitting the Iraqis was not easy. The gunmen were not wearing uniforms and had planned their ambush well - stockpiling weapons in dozens of houses, between which they moved freely pretending to be civilians. "It's a bad situation," said First Sergeant James Thompson, who was running around with a 9mm pistol in his hand. "We don't know who is shooting at us. They are even using women as scouts. The women come out waving at us, or with their hands raised. We freeze, but the next minute we can see how she is looking at our positions and giving them away to the fighters hiding behind a street corner. It's very difficult to distinguish between the fighters and civilians."

Across the square, genuine civilians were running for their lives. Many, including some children, were gunned down in the crossfire. In a surreal scene, a father and mother stood out on a balcony with their children in their arms to give them a better view of the battle raging below. A few minutes later several US mortar shells landed in front of their house. In all probability, the family is dead.

The fighting intensified. An Iraqi fighter emerged from behind a wall of sandbags 500 yards away from our vehicle. Several times he managed to fire off an RPG at our positions. Bernize and other gunners fired dozens of rounds at his dugout, punching large holes into a house and lifting thick clouds of dust. Captain Mike Brooks, commander of Alpha company, pinned down in front of the mosque, called in tank support. Armed with only a 9mm pistol, he jumped out of the back of his AAV with a young marine carrying a field radio on his back.

Brooks, 34, from Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, had been in command of 200 men for just over a year. He joined the marines when he was 19 because he felt that he was wasting his life. He needed direction, was a bit of a rebel and was impressed by the sense of pride in the corps. He is a soft-spoken man, fair but very firm. Brave too: I watched him sprint in front of enemy positions to brief some of his junior officers behind a wall. Behind us, two 68-ton Abrams tanks rolled up, crushing the barrier separating the lanes on the highway. The earth shook violently as one tank, Desert Knight, stopped in front of our row of AAVS and fired several 120mm shells into buildings. A few hundred yards down ambush alley there was carnage. An AAV from Charlie company was racing back towards the bridge to evacuate some wounded marines when it was hit by two RPGs. The heavy vehicle shook but withstood the explosions.

Then the Iraqis fired again. This time the rocket plunged into the vehicle through the open rooftop. The explosion was deadly, made 10 times more powerful by the ammunition stored in the back. The wreckage smouldered in the middle of the road. I jumped out from the rear hatch of our vehicle, briefly taking cover behind a wall. When I reached the stricken AAV, the scene was mayhem. The heavy, thick rear ramp had been blown open. There were pools of blood and bits of flesh everywhere. A severed leg, still wearing a desert boot, lay on what was left of the ramp among playing cards, a magazine, cans of Coke and a small bloodstained teddy bear.

"They are f****** dead, they are dead. Oh my God. Get in there. Get in there now and pull them out," shouted a gunner in a state verging on hysterical. There was panic and confusion as a group of young marines, shouting and cursing orders at one another, pulled out a maimed body. Two men struggled to lift the body on a stretcher and into the back of a Hummer, but it would not fit inside, so the stretcher remained almost upright, the dead man's leg, partly blown away, dangling in the air.

"We shouldn't be here," said Lieutenant Campbell Kane, 25, who was born in Northern Ireland. "We can't hold this. They are trying to suck us into the city and we haven't got enough ass up here to sustain this. We need more tanks, more helicopters." Closer to the destroyed AAV, another young marine was transfixed with fear and kept repeating: "Oh my God, I can't believe this. Did you see his leg? It was blown off. It was blown off."

Two CH-46 helicopters, nicknamed Frogs, landed a few hundred yards away in the middle of a firefight to take away the dead and wounded. If at first the marines felt constrained by orders to protect civilians, by now the battle had become so intense that there was little time for niceties. Cobra helicopters were ordered to fire at a row of houses closest to our positions. There were massive explosions but the return fire barely died down. Behind us, as many as four AAVs that had driven down along the banks of the Euphrates were stuck in deep mud and coming under fire.

About 1pm, after three hours of intense fighting, the order was given to regroup and try to head out of the city in convoy. Several marines who had lost their vehicles piled into the back of ours. We raced along ambush alley at full speed, close to a line of houses. "My driver got hit," said one of the marines who joined us, his face and uniform caked in mud. "I went to try to help him when he got hit by another RPG or a mortar. I don't even know how many friends I have lost. I don't care if they nuke that bloody city now. From one house they were waving while shooting at us with AKs from the next. It was insane."

There was relief when we finally crossed the second bridge to the northeast of the city in mid-afternoon. But there was more horror to come. Beside the smouldering wreckage of another AAV were the bodies of another four marines, laid out in the mud and covered with camouflage ponchos. There were body parts everywhere. One of the dead was Second Lieutenant Fred Pokorney, 31, a marine artillery officer from Washington state. He was a big guy, whose ill-fitting uniform was the butt of many jokes. It was supposed to have been a special day for Pokorney. After 13 years of service, he was to be promoted to first lieutenant. The men of Charlie company had agreed they would all shake hands with him to celebrate as soon as they crossed the second bridge, their mission accomplished. It didn't happen. Pokorney made it over the second bridge and a few hundred yards down a highway through dusty flatlands before his vehicle was ambushed. Pokorney and his men had no chance. Fully loaded with ammunition, their truck exploded in the middle of the road, its remains burning for hours. Pokorney was hit in the chest by an RPG. Another man who died was Fitzgerald Jordan, a staff sergeant from Texas. I felt numb when I heard this. I had met Jordan 10 days before we moved into Nasiriya. He was a character, always chewing tobacco and coming up to pat you on the back. He got me to fetch newspapers for him from Kuwait City. Later, we shared a bumpy ride across the desert in the back of a Humvee.

A decorated Gulf war veteran, he used to complain about having to come back to Iraq. "We should have gone all the way to Baghdad 12 years ago when we were here and had a real chance of removing Saddam." Now Pokorney, Jordan and their comrades lay among unspeakable carnage. An older marine walked by carrying a huge chunk of flesh, so maimed it was impossible to tell which body part it was. With tears in his eyes and blood splattered over his flak jacket, he held the remains of his friend in his arms until someone gave him a poncho to wrap them with.

Frantic medics did what they could to relieve horrific injuries, until four helicopters landed in the middle of the highway to take the injured to a military hospital. Each wounded marine had a tag describing his injury. One had gunshot wounds to the face, another to the chest. Another simply lay on his side in the sand with a tag reading: "Urgent - surgery, buttock."

One young marine was assigned the job of keeping the flies at bay. Some of his comrades, exhausted, covered in blood, dirt and sweat walked around dazed. There were loud cheers as the sound of the heaviest artillery yet to pound Nasiriya shook the ground. Before last week the overwhelming majority of these young men had never been in combat. Few had even seen a dead body. Now, their faces had changed.

Anger and fear were fuelled by rumours that the bodies of American soldiers had been dragged through Nasiriya's streets. Some marines cried in the arms of friends, others sought comfort in the Bible. Next morning, the men of Alpha company talked about the fighting over MREs (meals ready to eat). They were jittery now and reacted nervously to any movement around their dugouts. They suspected that civilian cars, including taxis, had helped resupply the enemy inside the city. When cars were spotted speeding along two roads, frantic calls were made over the radio to get permission to "kill the vehicles". Twenty-four hours earlier it would almost certainly have been denied: now it was granted. Immediately, the level of force levelled at civilian vehicles was overwhelming. Tanks were placed on the road and AAVs lined along one side. Several taxis were destroyed by helicopter gunships as they drove down the road.

A lorry filled with sacks of wheat made the fatal mistake of driving through US lines. The order was given to fire. Several AAVs pounded it with a barrage of machinegun fire, riddling the windscreen with at least 20 holes. The driver was killed instantly. The lorry swerved off the road and into a ditch. Rumour spread that the driver had been armed and had fired at the marines. I walked up to the lorry, but could find no trace of a weapon. This was the start of day that claimed many civilian casualties. After the lorry a truck came down the road. Again the marines fired. Inside, four men were killed. They had been travelling with some 10 other civilians, mainly women and children who were evacuated, crying, their clothes splattered in blood. Hours later a dog belonging to the dead driver was still by his side. The marines moved west to take a military barracks and secure their third objective, the third bridge, which carried a road out of the city. At the barracks, the marines hung a US flag from a statue of Saddam, but Lieutenant-Colonel Rick Grabowski, the battalion commander, ordered it down. He toured barracks. There were stacks of Russian-made ammunition and hundreds of Iraqi army uniforms, some new, others left behind by fleeing Iraqi soldiers.

One room had a map of Nasiriya, showing its defences and two large cardboard arrows indicating the US plan of attack to take the two main bridges. Above the map were several murals praising Saddam. One, which sickened the Americans, showed two large civilian planes crashing into tall buildings. As night fell again there was great tension, the marines fearing an ambush. Two tanks and three AAVs were placed at the north end of the third bridge, their guns pointing down towards Nasiriya, and given orders to shoot at any vehicle that drove towards American positions. Though civilians on foot passed by safely, the policy was to shoot anything that moved on wheels. Inevitably, terrified civilians drove at speed to escape: marines took that speed to be a threat and hit out. During the night, our teeth on edge, we listened a dozen times as the AVVs' machineguns opened fire, cutting through cars and trucks like paper.

Next morning I saw the result of this order - the dead civilians, the little girl in the orange and gold dress. Suddenly, some of the young men who had crossed into Iraq with me reminded me now of their fathers' generation, the trigger-happy grunts of Vietnam. Covered in the mud from the violent storms, they were drained and dangerously aggressive. In the days afterwards, the marines consolidated their position and put a barrier of trucks across the bridge to stop anyone from driving across, so there were no more civilian deaths. They also ruminated on what they had done. Some rationalised it. "I was shooting down a street when suddenly a woman came out and casually began to cross the street with a child no older than 10," said Gunnery

Sergeant John Merriman, another Gulf war veteran. "At first I froze on seeing the civilian woman. She then crossed back again with the child and went behind a wall. Within less than a minute a guy with an RPG came out and fired at us from behind the same wall. This happened a second time so I thought, "Okay, I get it. Let her come out again". She did and this time I took her out with my M-16." Others were less sanguine.

Mike Brooks was one of the commanders who had given the order to shoot at civilian vehicles. It weighed on his mind, even though he felt he had no choice but to do everything to protect his marines from another ambush. On Friday, making coffee in the dust, he told me he had been writing a diary, partly for his wife Kelly, a nurse at home in Jacksonville, North Carolina, with their sons Colin, 6, and four-year-old twins Brian and Evan. When he came to jotting down the incident about the two babies getting killed by his men he couldn't do it. But he said he would tell her when he got home. I offered to let him call his wife on my satellite phone to tell her he was okay. He turned down the offer and had me write and send her an e-mail instead. He was too emotional. If she heard his voice, he said, she would know that something was wrong.

 
Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on :
 
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/dailybriefing/story/0,12965,927233,00.html

. . . which, aside from assorted musings on exactly how soon one should fire a warning shot at an approaching vehicle, also contains this little gem:

quote:
Meanwhile it has emerged - as a result of detective work on the internet by a Guardian reader - that the explosion in a Baghdad market which killed more than 60 people last Friday was indeed caused by a cruise missile and not an Iraqi anti-aircraft rocket as the US has suggested.

A metal fragment found at the scene by British journalist Robert Fisk carried various markings, including "MFR 96214 09". This, our reader pointed out in an email, is a manufacturer's identification number known as a "cage code".

Cage codes can be looked up on the internet (www.gidm.dlis.dla.mil), and keying in the number 96214 traces the fragment back to a plant in McKinney, Texas, owned by the Raytheon Company.

Raytheon, whose headquarters are in Lexington, Massachusetts, aspires "to be the most admired defence and aerospace systems supplier through world-class people and technology", according to its website (www.raytheon.com). It makes a vast array of military equipment, including the AGM-129 cruise missile which is launched from B-52 bombers.


 
Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on :
 
Oh, yeah, forgot:

quote:
I thought tanks had IFFs.
Not sure about US tanks, but the Britsh IFF device is, metaphorically - all together now - being delivered on Tuesday. 8(
 
Posted by Styrofoaman (Member # 706) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Wraith:
Oh, yeah- almost exactly the same thing happened last time!!! It might, of course, help if the US actually bothered to properly train its troops; or would that be too much trouble?

Grrrr... It's funny. People would rather hire ex-military bone-heads like these than an engineer with 10+ years of hands-on experience and a 4 year tech degree... Simply because "We have to support our troops!"

And then people wonder why accidents like Three Mile Island, Gaylord Paperboard (no! There really IS a Gaylord, Inc!) and the like occur.

I've interviewed a couple of these sods in the last few months. "Well, I failed nuke school, and mess-training but I would be the PERFECT coex operator because I am so smaaaart and because I served the Military for 4 years!"


Gaaaah...

Where is my beer?! [Mad]
 
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
 
Styrofoaman: LOL, yeah, mind you, there are many highly trained and professional people in the military. Most of them are still in, of course... [Wink]

Epoch: Yeah, I didn't say that decent training would eliminate all mistakes. Equally, the US armed forces don't exactly have a repution for being the best trained in the world. The USMC are good though. I tend to measure everyone against HM Armed Forces (All of them), which even the French (and US) admit are the best in the world. [Smile] I was a bit cranky cos I'd just been subject to the tender mercies of the NHS vaccination program.
 
Posted by Styrofoaman (Member # 706) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Wraith:
Styrofoaman: LOL, yeah, mind you, there are many highly trained and professional people in the military. Most of them are still in, of course... [Wink]

Exactly. I do prefer to hire ex-military I&C techs, ex-navy because thier electical knowhow is better than what you get in trade-school. BUT only if they get a good discharge.

quote:

Epoch: Yeah, I didn't say that decent training would eliminate all mistakes. Equally, the US armed forces don't exactly have a repution for being the best trained in the world. The USMC are good though.

Problem is the military will take almost anyone in. Ya know: Garbage In Garbage Out. For the most part, the US Armed Forces are the best in the world... But when Redneck Joe-Bob screws somthing up it's going to make a hellofa mess. [Big Grin]

One strike against hiring ex-military people is their extreme linear thinking. When I hire an operator for a co-extrusion line I need someone who can think outside the box and come up with non-standard solutions to problems. Most ex-military workers I have here only �follow orders� which is great when all you need to do is rewire something� But no so great when designing a product like Toaster Soup. [Wink]
 
Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :
 
The sad thing is that the US Military is still disturbing cavalier about friendly-fire deaths. The official line is constantly "It's a war, this stuff happens" and everyone keeps buying it.

The US Army will spend billions upgrading their rifles so that when 10 Americans and 10 Iraqis get in a firefight, instead of 4 Americans biting it before all the Iraqis are killed, only 3 will. Billions. Nobody has the gonads to stand up and point out that the majority of their casualties aren't coming from hostile fire so money might be better spent ensuring young Pvt. Hazzard doesn't shoot the guy who sleeps in the next bunk.
 
Posted by Jay the Obscure (Member # 19) on :
 
It goes without saying that one can never be fully trained for combat without first being in combat.
 
Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
 
Then why did you say it???

Linear thinking? Problem solving was needed while I was in, then again, maybe that was only in the combat arms specialties. A lot of our training times were spent with a problem and coming up with the best ways to solve it, varying from taking out enemy positions to refueling from a disabled refueling truck.

Vehicle indentification was also a class we had to take often, but, with the end of the cold war era it may have fallen off to the way side a bit. Knowing weather or not a track had a Christi track system or not was a big help in the world I tell ya!!!
 
Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on :
 
The Fog of War.

Interesting turn of phrase a military spokesman used in describing how they can move forward from this incident - about avoiding "the loss of potential non-combatants." Guilty until proven innocent, anyone? Now, while the latest in a long line of idiotic US militaryspeak, it does point to a certain shift in the attitude of Coalition forces. From people eager and waiting to be liberated, to an invaded and resentful population any one of whom could be a threat. . . They're starting to wise up at last.
 
Posted by Styrofoaman (Member # 706) on :
 
Intresting.... How come none of these kind of vets come 'round here? How come I get stuck with the jerks, wierdos, and dweebs? (isn't that a Cher song?)


quote:
Originally posted by Ritten:
Then why did you say it???

Linear thinking? Problem solving was needed while I was in, then again, maybe that was only in the combat arms specialties. A lot of our training times were spent with a problem and coming up with the best ways to solve it, varying from taking out enemy positions to refueling from a disabled refueling truck.

Vehicle indentification was also a class we had to take often, but, with the end of the cold war era it may have fallen off to the way side a bit. Knowing weather or not a track had a Christi track system or not was a big help in the world I tell ya!!!


 
Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
 
Styrofoam Man: "How come I get stuck with the jerks, wierdos, and dweebs? (isn't that a Cher song?)"

That was Cher's life.
 
Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :
 
Warning! admittedly unfounded speculation follows:

I have a terrible suspicion that this latest event was staged by Fedayeen.

It could easily have gone down like this:

Fedayeen thugs grab two or three families. They crowd the women and kids into a vehicle, and tell them "run the chackpoint, or we're cutting off your husbands'/fathers'/sons' hands, feet, and faces, slowly."

KNOWING that this is the same group which suffered casualties from the taxi suicide bomber, and that they probably WOULD fire on a vehicle which refused to stop, out of self-defense.

It fits with SOP of the Fedayeen, and it fits with one of their main goals, to manufacture civilian casualties and blame it on the US troops.

Plus, if it HADN'T worked, they could have tried the same thing a little later with real fighters.

Just a theory, which happens to fit the facts.

First "you wanna lower civilian casualties? Kill the Fedayeen!" of Two
 
Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
 
Styrofoaman : Don't know, hey, need an employee???


First: Yes, that would fit, but will the world see it that way? After all, the part of the world that watches that Arabic News Network believes the Coalition is being routed....
 
Posted by Styrofoaman (Member # 706) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Ritten:
Styrofoaman : Don't know, hey, need an employee???

Gaah! Two weeks too late. Ask again in September.

quote:

First: Yes, that would fit, but will the world see it that way? After all, the part of the world that watches that Arabic News Network believes the Coalition is being routed.... [/QB]

Maybe we are... Can you trust CNN to deliver the truth? [Big Grin]
 
Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
 
The choices:
A. The Iraqi Ministers are honest people
B. The reports in the field have some integrity
C. They are all really having tea, relaxing in a palace

Which to believe, even in some minimal form....
 
Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
 
The choices:
A. The Iraqi Ministers are honest people
B. The reports in the field have some integrity
C. They are all really having tea, relaxing in a palace

Which to believe, even in some minimal form....

Okay, depending on what this summer brings, if I can't get out of here, or don't start drinking, I send you my resume in September....
 
Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on :
 
Now that's scary - when I first heard about the incident, I had exactly the same thought as Rob.

Final analysis, though, does it matter how this tragedy happened? The victims are still dead; the soldiers at the checkpoint. . . well, fact remains they could have handled things better. That's for their consciences to decide. I just hope it doesn't make them hesitate when a real threat confronts them.
 
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
 
fact remains they could have handled things better

How so?
 
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
 
Well, to start with, they could've dismembered someone and posted them as a warning. I volunteer Omega for that.
 
Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on :
 
Yes. Silly Omega. Even our definitions of 'better' diverge wildly. Mine would be "gee, um, I dunno, maybe they could, like, you know, have fired a warning shot when ordered to do so?" whereas Omega's preferred choice would be to shoot any carloads full of civilian dark people on sight.
 
Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
 
If a person stops, while on the battlefield, and takes the time to fully comprehend what one is doing they will become rooted to the spot. That is why combat troops have nightmares after the fact, and not during, up blot it out and act act cavalier about it.
 
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
 
whereas Omega's preferred choice would be to shoot any carloads full of civilian dark people on sight.

Again I ask, can anyone here still manage to think that Lee is not an ass?
 
Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on :
 
Gosh, Omeychops is just so nice - he can't even bring himself to call me an asshole. Instead he has to ask if there's anyone who doesn't think I'm one. There are so many double negatives in there I'm totally in the dark as to whether I'm an asshole by public acclaim, or not. Go on, Stephen, call me an asshole, I guarantee you it'll make you feel much better. "The eternal battle between good and evil, saints and sinners. . . But you are still not having FUN!"

So, yes, I'm an asshole. The way I figure it, if a racist, homophobic, Christian fundamentalist adolescent little bigot thinks I'm an asshole, then I must be doing something right. Because God fucking forbid I might ever think the same way as you. About anything. 8)
 
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
 
"Again I ask, can anyone here still manage to think that Lee is not an ass?"

I'm going to predict the answer is still "yes".
 
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
 
Letter from today's Telegraph:
quote:
Sir - The reason for the American forces loosing off a variety of ordnance at their allies is simple. Poor training.

I spent many years of my time in the Royal Air Force as a target recognition instructor. It is a requirement of all aircrew to reach and maintain a high standard of recognition as part of their categorisation. It was a pass/fail subject when I taught it.

Fifty per cent of the recognition course concentrated on "blue" forces, which then meant all Nato kit. On some of my courses, there would be American exchange officers, here to fly with our squadrons for a couple of years.

They were always astounded at the level to which we taught recognition. "At home," they would say, "we are told there's a box of slides in the back room if you feel like looking at them, but they're only some Russian stuff."

If you are not taught to recognise equipment of whatever sort - land, sea, or air - in the adrenaline rush of war, it will all look the same - a target.

From:
M E Turner, Rochester, Kent


 
Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :
 
The Brits have shot up their own, too. So master gentleman Turner may take his attitude and deposit it forcefully into his rectal orifice.

No, Omega, Lee is not an ass. An ad-hominem spewing amateur armchair strategist poseur, but not an ass.
 
Posted by Mucus (Member # 24) on :
 
That was constructive.
 
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
 
Ah, but they did so by accident, not by ignorance, incompetence, or lack of training.

And of course, it's perfectly okay for Omega to ask anyone if Lee is an asshole, but heaven forbid Lee discuss Omega's characteristics. I guess if he'd said "does anyone else think Omega isa racist, homophobic, Christian fundamentalist adolescent little bigot?" then poor old Robert wouldn't be able to post his whole little "ack, ad-hominem spewing..." prattle.

quote:
amateur armchair strategist poseur,
PS -- how does this describe Lee and not you, Rob? If I remember right, at least Lee served in his nation's military. Which gives him a fuck load of credibility as compared to you.
 
Posted by Styrofoaman (Member # 706) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Malnurtured Snay:
...Which gives him a fuck load of credibility as compared to you.

Just for the record I am not sticking up for Fo2 here. [Big Grin]

Being in the military doesn't give you credibility. Niether does going to collage. I've had morons from both walks of life come in here demanding a job based on the fact that they have some sort of paperwork that they feel makes them "better" in some way than those who do not.

In the end the best operator I have in either plant is Jessie. She dropped out of 9th grade and spent 3 years in prison on drug related charges. However, she has made extreme efforts to learn the job of Cast Film Operator. So well has she done I paid for her GED.

The army brats don't want to work anymore. They all want leadership positions. The collage people are afraid of getting dirty, they all want office jobs.

In the end Credibility is a function of Action and Deeds, not words or paperwork.
 
Posted by Epoch (Member # 136) on :
 
Well as far as I can tell we all have our little problems. Lee just has a habit of pointing them out in really nasty and generally annoying ways. As for most of us on here we are also assholes. At one time or another we have all behaved less then stellar, and it seems that we are slipping that way again.
 
Posted by Styrofoaman (Member # 706) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Epoch:
As for most of us on here we are also assholes. At one time or another we have all behaved less then stellar, and it seems that we are slipping that way again.

Yeah, like the fact that I have no respect for NASA anymore... [Big Grin]
 
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
 
Well as far as I can tell we all have our little problems. Lee just has a habit of pointing them out in really nasty and generally annoying ways.

Well, there's also the fact that Lee's are defamitory lies that, if stated in a different place, would result in his being sued for libel...
 
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
 
Really? Or is that you can't take an honest look at yourself?

I think the later.

Let's see ...

little ... Assuming Lee is bigger than you ... CHECK!

bigot ... CHECK!

homophobic ... CHECK!

racist ... CHECK!

Christian fundamentalist ... CHECK, CHECK, CHECK!

adolescent ... no check! I think Omega is an adult now. Scary.
 
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
 
"No, Omega, Lee is not an ass. An ad-hominem spewing amateur armchair strategist poseur, but not an ass."

So, what you're saying is that you've got him beat, two to one?
 
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
 
Hmm... so not only is Lee an ass, Jeff believes the same things. So, since they have all the evidence available at their disposal, and their claims are not supported by that evidence in any way, one can only assume that they're a) purposefully lying, or b) idiots that like holding grudges. Any bets?
 
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
 
Omega,

It isn't hard to look at your posts and come to the same conclusions. Heck, even Rob would call you a "fundementalist Christian." I've seen posts of your that are either very anti-gays, or anti-otherthings (i.e., Wiccans). Therefore, you're designated as homophobic and bigoted. Based on my own experience, I know that people who are homophobic and bigoted are 100 times out of 100 chances going to be racist as well.

So don't blame people when you get labeled things you don't like based on YOUR actions. People don't just label you this because you're religious or your political views -- they label you as such because you ARE.

I'm sorry if you're too dense to realize this.
 
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
 
You know, I enjoy a good three-minute hate as much as anybody, but, uh, what exactly is the point of this thread anymore?
 
Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :
 
There isn't one.

We've always been at war with Eastasia, incidentally.
 


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