Mmm... Superiority.
Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
So there are people who actually believe the Kyoto Accords is a deliberate conspiracy against US interests, not a joint project against manmade pollution. Martyrdom, a fantastic way to lead attention away from the real problem, lol! If only the think-tanks in the US would turn their agenda into co-op mode instead of D-fens.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Wow. Without those accords, we would never have been led astray to think pollution was bad! Why, I'd bet that some harmless carbon monoxide does a body good! Just wait until Bush's republican pals get wind of this info..... They may have to wait for a clear day to read it though.
Global Warming is a myth: those glaciers falling apart were acts of terror by Al-SaddamTM. We should develop mini-nukes and just throw all of the EPA and NASA's budgets into homeland survailance while we're on a roll.
Who needs reality when you've got unlimited Spin?
Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
The only problem is that there have been people all along that have been stating that we are experiencing a normal cycle in earth's history..... No big deal there...
If they were using flawed data, or selectively choosing their data, then they did no better to you than those you call religious zealots. Okay for scientist, but not for religious people????
Pollution is bad, but is getting led around by the nose good? If this is acceptable then don't bitch about the Bible thumper pressing what you conceive as their crap down your throats, you are setting precedence....
Posted by Styrofoaman (Member # 706) on :
It's been known for a long long time that this global-warming thing is utter crap. Political nuts latch on to it to further thier agendas every so often.
Now I'm not saying to dump VOCs, CO2, Sulpher compounds and CFCs into the air... But passing ultra-strict industry-crippling job-killing limits on such things because some special-intrest group is jumping up and down is just nuts.
[edit: forgot a comma, that's all]
Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
Well with all due respect, Mr Multi-million Dollar Plastic Empire, you're biased.
Posted by Balaam Xumucane (Member # 419) on :
Yeah, they're probably right. Global Warming's probably just some Green BS designed to take the piss out of industry and force jobs to China. And fuck with the fossil fuel industry. That's probably what it is. Just some unscruplous scientists (you know how they are) trying to fleece the pockets of the world's taxpayers (again!). Get totally fucking crazy rich riding that whole Global Warming glitter-train. You know. Meanwhile the honest hardworking executives in petrochemicals are forced to buckle down and really put their noses to the grindstone. It's not fair. I mean what more do these Green-touting money-grubbers want? Clean air? Those sick fucking bastards.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Well, the fact is, environmentalists say global warming is due to pollution, but they can't be sure we wouldn't be warming up naturally, anyway. People who like polluting say global warming is natural, but they can't be sure their pollution isn't exacerbating the situation.
But, really, when you get down to it, most of the crap they're pumping into the air is not stuff we should have in our lungs, so, regardless of global warming, they ought to cut it out.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
All I need to breathe is my sweet sweet crackpipe.
Posted by Saltah'na (Member # 33) on :
Isn't the Calgary Herald neo-conservative? And isn't it true that Calgary is in the heart of the oil-and-gas-ultra-right-wing-alliance country?
Just curious.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
And is'nt it true that Calgary is responsible for the Chancelor's murder? DON'T WAIT FOR THE TRANSLATION! ANSWER NOW!!! Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
Do you feel better now???
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
It was a Star Trek VI moment... You have to just kinda go with them, y'know?
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
Bottom line is global warming is a natural process, the accelerated greenhouse effect is not. We could very well be still warming up after the last ice age, but the rate of temperature rise is faster than any period in currently-accessible geologic history. Combine that with the rampant deforestation going on in the tropics, massive herds of flatulant cattle, tons of carbon monoxide being dumped from pointless SUVs, coal-burning power plants in China and Russia (and the US)... *sigh*
--Jonah
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Sounds like a brainstorming session between halliburton, 3M, McDonalds and General Motors. "If only there was a way to combine all that into one super product and sell it at Wal-Mart..." Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
I'm glad we don't have to worry about that anymore.
Someday we'll look back fondly on the time when Australia was inhabitable.
I should get back to my arctic adventure story.
Posted by Styrofoaman (Member # 706) on :
Biased you say? When in fact we just won an award for lowest VOC emissions for a facility this size? Biased? Because instead of expanding production we instead spent over $2million on VOC emission control equipment? Spent $1.5million on a device to recycle the CO2 that we use? Biased when we buy 20% of our power from "alternate" sources like wind, solar, landfill-gas reclaim and tidal plants even though it costs much much more than plugging into Russel Station Coal Power Plant across town?
Hmmmm...
Intresting how no one really knows if our polution is to blame or if this is a natural warming cycle yet people crap all over industry because the Mighty God Of The World The All Powerful American Goverment bows to the greenicks.
....
Look up for yourself and see how many powerplants are slated to close because the utility companies can't afford the upgraded enviromental control systems. Yeah. That'll help the straining grid. Better start conserving now, because power-rationing is around the corner. Can't conserve what we don't have! Remember that!
While you are at it look up the cost of enviromental control equipment, look up what happened to the people who worked at Diaz Chemical here in Holley NY. Now apply that across the country and the economic cost is staggering.
Someday you'll be telling your children about the day the last american industrial worker was hired by Burger King, and the day we became total slaves to overseas manufacturing.
Krrrriest I need a beer. Ya'll piss me off.
Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
Well, the good thing is, that with global warming the people won't be too cold at night, as they lose their homes, or lose the power to run them....
Still, Sty, if more companies were as you say, then we could all breath a bit easier in the long run, although you don't have stockholders to please do you? I mean, when you hold half a million to a million stock options as a CEO of a big conglomerate you don't want that pricing lowering because you spent money on something like emission controls.... You have got to keep the profit up, so you are worth more and more every day....
Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :
"with global warming the people won't be too cold at night..."
No... they'll just be soaking wet. B)
Posted by Styrofoaman (Member # 706) on :
We are privatly owned, not publicly traded.
My wife and I own 75% of the "stock" and the rest is divided up amongst family members that contrubited to the company. Like Uncle Fred who helped float our first loan, and Liz's mother who ran our accounting system untill it got complex.
This is one reason that we will never "go public" with this company. You do somthing positive like add emission control, your stock price plunges to the ground. You do somthing negitive like lay off 2,000 workers and move thier work overseas then your stock-price goes back up.
...and don't get me started on that whole "Company X failed to meet analyst's expectations of $.25/share earnings therefore the stock price collapsed..." crap. And that entire "Stock-Price more important than growth" crap that put us in this depression to begin with.
...I need another beer. Stat!
Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
Styrofoaman said: "It's been known for a long long time that this global-warming thing is utter crap." "The All Powerful American Goverment bows to the greenicks"
I'm not questioning the professionalism and ethics you strive to live by in the management of your factory, in fact I commend it, but looking at what you've said in this discussion, regarding any proposed bias on your part, um, alarm bells are ringing.
Also, the news just revealed that the US, under its new government, wants to step out of the Montreal Protocol as well. The reason according to spokesmen is that the US wants to protect the legions of farmers using ozone-consuming pesticides and fertilizers, so that the farmers' budgets will look better.
Not only does the US want to keep on using these pesticides and fertilizers but is asking for permission to increase the use of them.
Since the US alone uses more of this stuff than all of Europe combined, our continued restrictions will in the future become negligible compared to your policy-reversal and increased usage.
Posted by Styrofoaman (Member # 706) on :
Ah, sorry. I must have missed that about the fertilizers.
Intresting.
---
I'm not biased when it comes to enviromental controls. Dumping VOC into the air above Fairport is not a good thing by any means. I just get mad when they pass (IMHO) knee-jerk bills restricting my activites based on flimsy science.
Hmmm... this is turning into a three-beer thread. Anyone else want one?
Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
I'm actually trying to cut down (little pun there), but thanks anyway.
Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
The US Gov't will probably reverse the reverses when a different Administration comes in to power in a little over a year.
"I just get mad when they pass (IMHO) knee-jerk bills restricting my activites based on flimsy science."
And the same people that cheer over this would scream if someone even proposed a bill with biblical backing....
Posted by Da_bang80 (Member # 528) on :
I think that this world could stand to be a few degrees warmer...
How do the scientists know that the recent trend is human caused. They use tree rings and other crap to determine what the temperature used to be like.
But how do they know what the Earth's temperature was 80 million years ago? They can't, cuz they weren't there. So they have no basis on which to make thier claims.
The planet survived thousands of other problems. Asteroids, Comets, Volcanos. I'm sure it can survive us.
Posted by Balaam Xumucane (Member # 419) on :
Styro, I applaud you for your environmental efforts. But surely you see that not every business is going to have your scruples. However, I suggest that perhaps your anger is misplaced. By making it more expensive for you to do business, perhaps the government is acting irresponsibly by not holding overseas suppliers to the same standards, compensating you and your domestic peers, or adjusting tariffs such that the pricing would be competitive. You could ask your representatives about that. Because I mean it sounds like that what's upsetting you. I don't know that I could ever really be upset about legislation that was a touch over-cautious when it comes to balancing the potential habitability of the planet versus profit margins.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 24) on :
quote: Biased you say? When in fact we just won an award for lowest VOC emissions for a facility this size? Biased? Because instead of expanding production we instead spent over $2million on VOC emission control equipment? Spent $1.5million on a device to recycle the CO2 that we use? Biased when we buy 20% of our power from "alternate" sources like wind, solar, landfill-gas reclaim and tidal plants even though it costs much much more than plugging into Russel Station Coal Power Plant across town?
Really, thats absolutely impressive. It is completely stunning, the quality of the forumgoer we attract here at Flare. I'm sure we'd all appreciate a link to the organisation that gave your facility an award, so we can read all about your achievements.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
It rocks that your company destroys the environment slower than your competitors.
Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
Yes, I can see the pot of gold, and I am happy that I am now rich, but someone is probably going to hit me in the head with it....
Yep, outside that silver lining is that fucking dark cloud.....
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
Quite.
Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :
"And the same people that cheer over this would scream if someone even proposed a bill with biblical backing...."
Well, you see, while we don't know for certain WHAT is causing the Earth to warm up, most of us DO understand that it is in our best interest to counteract the process (what with these things called cities being located in those other things called coastal regions, for one) by at least reducing our contribution TO it. There is, you know, something at stake here. Thus the knee-jerking.
"The planet survived thousands of other problems. Asteroids, Comets, Volcanos. I'm sure it can survive us."
Our main concern right now is surviving IT, which would be easier if we didn't have to contend with massive floods and, oh, toxic air.
Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :
Also, Dabang, read a geology book sometime. You might actually learn something.
Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
Cartman, I agree with cleaning up the world, and I know about the dirt and grim in some of the coastal cities a flood would clean up nicely, but using half assed methods for such important, to humans anyway, scientific work, is no better than what I stated.
The means being justified by the ends is not always the case....
Hey, I also know of another case people are upset about, you see, this one country was invaded by another country, and the leaders of the invading country may have twisted some of the information to make it sound like a good idea. Well, the country they invaded was run by a crazy guy that killed his own people... So the ends justified the means....
Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :
The jury's still on out that, and probably will be for the rest of the decade.
In my book, using "half-assed" (even though half the scientific community thinks they aren't, and a neo-conservative source such as the Calgary Herald does little to make me migrate to the other camp) methods in an effort to keep this planet habitable is just as excusable as pre-emptively invading another country is in yours.
Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
Ritten: "I know about the dirt and grim in some of the coastal cities a flood would clean up nicely"
You know, in the Donald Duck-world you describe, that might hold true.
In reality though, besides making a lot of people very homeless and the less agile people very dead, a flood would transport things like sewer water, public toilet content, industrial waste and general diseases to your bedroom.
If you ever have the honor of experiencing that phenomenon, cherish it, it will strengthen your character. Everything else goes.
Posted by Toadkiller (Member # 425) on :
quote:Originally posted by Da_bang80: I think that this world could stand to be a few degrees warmer...
How do the scientists know that the recent trend is human caused. They use tree rings and other crap to determine what the temperature used to be like.
But how do they know what the Earth's temperature was 80 million years ago? They can't, cuz they weren't there. So they have no basis on which to make thier claims.
The planet survived thousands of other problems. Asteroids, Comets, Volcanos. I'm sure it can survive us.
Actually that is exactly the point - the planet and many of the other species on the planet are going to do just fine. What we really should be concerned about is ourselves. Bottom line - our population keeps going up as we use up resources in our environment. We will reach a point where our population crashes, not extinction neccesarily, but crashes. This would not be a pleasant thing to be around.
We have an alternative - we can take measures to control our population and to manage our use of resources. It comes down to if we want to take a long view or just live in the moment as a species.
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
George Carlin said it best:
"The planet's survived worse than us! It's not going anywhere! We are!"
--Jonah
Posted by Balaam Xumucane (Member # 419) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ritten: Hey, I also know of another case people are upset about, you see, this one country was invaded by another country, and the leaders of the invading country may have twisted some of the information to make it sound like a good idea....
And it's even more of a parallel since the US stands bullheaded against the rest of the UN!
Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
Only for another year....
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Unfortunately, you are wrong. I just saw Jimmy Carter say so in an interview last night: carter pointed out that voters rally behind a Commander In Chief during wartime and dont really want an unknown quantity during such an uncertain time.
Sucks, but we're gonna get stuck with this fucker for another four years (barring serious impeachment-level scandal).
As to the Environment: It's common sense that we shouldnt be using up all our rescources and expanding our populations at the same time but anyone trying to enforce those policies would be laughed out of office.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"...voters rally behind a Commander In Chief during wartime and dont really want an unknown quantity during such an uncertain time."
But the question is, do more people feel that way, or do more people feel the war is Bush's fault in the first place, and we need to replace him to fix it?
Posted by Da_bang80 (Member # 528) on :
I'm well aware of the general temperature of the Earth during the age of the dinosaurs. I was thinking along the lines of specific warming and cooling trends over the millennia.
A rock or layer of the Earth's crust can't tell you the exact temperature over the span of a decade or so, as rocks and the Earths crust take much longer than that to form a layer. Except maybe rocks formed by volcanic material.
They didn't have accurate measurments of temperature back then, unlike today. The only know that the Earths temperature shifted by several degrees in a pattern, very slowly.
Pollution may be speeding the process, but I don't think it's the cause.
Posted by Toadkiller (Member # 425) on :
quote:Originally posted by Da_bang80: I'm well aware of the general temperature of the Earth during the age of the dinosaurs.
What evidence are you using?
quote: A rock or layer of the Earth's crust can't tell you the exact temperature over the span of a decade or so,
But you can get information from geological and polar/icecap data that can be applied to today.
quote: They didn't have accurate measurments of temperature back then, unlike today. The only know that the Earths temperature shifted by several degrees in a pattern, very slowly.
Who the dinosaurs?
quote: Pollution may be speeding the process, but I don't think it's the cause.
Based on your independent research? Or what? Rectal extractions?
Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
Nim: I haven't, and my smart ass remark, I guess, is more ass, reading it again later.
I am still of the mind to agree with the other camp, that this is a cyclic thing, like the poles, that changes over time, and this Canadian paper isn't the first time I've heard about it. PBS or Discovery channel have had the scientists on with the opposing point of view.
It is like all these new ailments that are cropping up, I never had a clue that people suffered from so many different problems that needed special attention. Or are they renaming extreme condidtions for typical things? I don't know, the the desease names seem to indicate it.
Posted by Toadkiller (Member # 425) on :
Once again -regarding climate change - even if it is natural we may still need to take action to protect all those cities on the shore mentioned earlier...
Alot of the "new" diseases/conditions aren't new, but some are. New diseases (like SARS) do pop up from time to time. We're much better at ID'ing them these days but bacteria and viruses are continually evolving - sometimes they evolve in a way that isn't good for us.
Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
Tk, no, I didn't mean SARS and its ilk, just all the stuff on TV trying to sell more drugs. It is the main reason I don't watch TV, everybody has got something wrong with them, and they have the pill/ointment for it....
If it as bad as they say, yes, a couple of hundred trillion sand bags are going to be needed, but I am sure that there is an action plan for that somewhere.
Posted by Balaam Xumucane (Member # 419) on :
Helloooo, Otisburg(h?).
Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
Lost on me.....
And these days a lot is...
Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
Ritten, there are a lot of people suffering from a lot of things everywhere. What the has that got to do with nations trying to work together for the sake of the planet?
"If it as bad as they say, yes, a couple of hundred trillion sand bags are going to be needed, but I am sure that there is an action plan for that somewhere."
No action plan, if nature decide it wants to widen its girth a bit at the cost of breathable air, habitable temperatures, a working ozone layer and eatable food, there's fuck all we can do except proclaim anarchy, get a mohican hairstyle and build a really good V12-roadster.
What some people are trying to do is to convince mother nature to put the pin back in and give us at least 10-20 generations more to shape up.
In 9 out of 10 scenarios it's better to take too many precautions than too few, it pays in retrospect. There are also those who stand to lose from taking those precautions, at least at this point, and those persons want to convince everyone this is that 10:th scenario, in fact they've made it their life goal.
We had this discussion in my philosophy class last week, in the form of a hypothetical South Pole expedition in the early 1900's. Do you know what over-optimism can do to a expedition crew bound for the south pole, Ritten?
Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
I would imagine it would be a chilling experience, something that I do believe has happened to some.
In the past, say billion years, as the earth's atmosphere changed that drastically in a short period of time? Barring outside help, in which case all bets are off.
The blink of the geological eye is but a mere eon to us. So I can see where there wouldn't be time to do anything.
My other remarks only hang by the tenous thread that there are other 'scientists' doing other things that still signal our doom, that we are all going to die or be miserable from one thing or another.
My bitch is that if they used 'selective' data for there reports for this accord. Don't they feel that their information, as a whole, could have brought about the same conclusion?
If this is okay, that selective data was used, then we are at a stalemate, and, if selective data is acceptable, people lose their right to bitch about another popular subject here, namely, Iraq!!!!
Is being lied to okay, if the results are good???
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
i just watched this week's Nova and they were describing the likelyhood of earth's magnetic field inverting withing this century. Scary shit but it happens naturally every 700,000 years or so. bad side: about a million more cases of cancer every year from more cosmic wind getting through. The good side: Aurora Boralis over the whole northern hemisphere year round. Pretty if you're not on chemotherapy.
Posted by Balaam Xumucane (Member # 419) on :
Ikes! Well as long as The Core doesn't stop spinning, maybe most of us will be OK.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Pass on that shit movie. I'm SO glad I didint waste two hours of my relativly finite existance on that turd.
Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
Dr. Dirk Armstrong: We will now demonstrate what will happen to this slimy mudball if you don't give us the Plot Device Construction Grant! Professor? Prof. Besserwisser: Certainly. *holds up tennis ball pierced on pencil* D.D.A: *blazes ball with ignited hairspray stream* ... *still blazes* .... *still blazes* ..... *blazes more* ...... *NSA agent shoots both scientists in the head to save what precious air is left in room*
Yeah, I loved that movie.
Posted by Balaam Xumucane (Member # 419) on :
Someone set Stanley Tucci up the bomb at the Earth's core. They had to chance to survive make their time.
Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
Ritten: "Lost on me...And these days a lot is..."
You 'n me have to have a Hackman-marathon sometime, it would do you a lot of good.
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