But nobody scores political points for them.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Um... That article is about Kosovo. The "Nightline" thing was about Iraq. Our troops aren't dying by the hundreds and being downplayed by most media outlets in Kosovo.
Posted by Jay the Obscure (Member # 19) on :
Well, someone else the cat dragged in.
And what TSN said.
Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :
quote:Originally posted by TSN: Um... That article is about Kosovo. The "Nightline" thing was about Iraq. Our troops aren't dying by the hundreds and being downplayed by most media outlets in Kosovo.
Why isn't there a "Nightline" thing about Kosovo? We've been there longer...
So, then, the fact that we're still in Kosovo after 5 years (no exit strategy), and three Americans have been murdered by a UN "policeman," (who just happens to be a Jordanian Palestinian),
And the fact that this shooting has gone essentially unreported-on for two weeks ( mean, really, this hasn't even made FOX), while we get continual updates on deaths in Iraq,
Doesn't matter?
Does the fact that these three people weren't killed in Iraq make them less newsworthy? Or is it the fact that they were killed while on a UN mission rather than a US mission, by another UN officer, "friendly fire," in this case not being newsworthy?
Posted by Veers (Member # 661) on :
I remember seeing the Kosovo shooting on the news. It wasn't the lead story, because the same day Israel killed Abdel Aziz Rantisi, but it was on the newscast. Also, it was on most of the news web sites.
Since there have been no updates in the story (the Jordanian's motive is not quite clear), of course the press wouldn't report on it.
Posted by Jay the Obscure (Member # 19) on :
What about all soldiers, anywhere, on active duty?
That's the length to which your movable line gets drawn.
Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :
No Rob, they're not less newsworthy because they weren't killed in Iraq or because they were on a UN mission instead of a US one, they're less newsworthy (although the story got plenty of coverage in Europe) because over FIVE-HUNDRED soldiers have died in less than a YEAR while taking part in one of the most botched military operations in HISTORY and because more ARE dying there every WEEK while the situation spins further and further out of control and nobody in the Bush administration seems to have a CLUE what to do about it. THAT is why there isn't a Nightline thing about Kosovo.
I think I liked things better in your absence.
Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :
quote:Originally posted by Veers: Since there have been no updates in the story (the Jordanian's motive is not quite clear), of course the press wouldn't report on it.
Since when has a lack of updated information been cause for a lack of press coverage?
Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :
quote:Originally posted by Cartman: because over FIVE-HUNDRED soldiers have died in less than a YEAR
When will people stop acting as though this is some enormous casualty rate?
quote: I think I liked things better in your absence.
I was going to make the obvious analogy about life forms which prefer the dark places, but a smile will do. Posted by Manticore (Member # 1227) on :
It's more than was predicted. By a long shot.
Posted by Veers (Member # 661) on :
quote:Originally posted by First of Two:
quote:Originally posted by Veers: Since there have been no updates in the story (the Jordanian's motive is not quite clear), of course the press wouldn't report on it.
Since when has a lack of updated information been cause for a lack of press coverage?
The thing is, it WAS reported on in the US media, albeit in a small manner due to the more important (in the media's eyes) story of Rantisi's assassination. I do not know why they would do a story on something days after it occurred, if nothing new was discovered.
quote: quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by Cartman: because over FIVE-HUNDRED soldiers have died in less than a YEAR --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When will people stop acting as though this is some enormous casualty rate?
Let's put it this way: for a modern conflict involving the US military, in a time where "major combat operations" are supposed to be over, 750+ deaths and 3,000+ wounded are A LOT of casualties. You may not think so, but I'm fairly sure most of the country does.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
He rest of the country is comparing our losses to the nigh-impossibly bloodless victory over Iraq in GWI.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
Anyone who didn't expect a blood bath when invading and occupying a country like Iraq was deluding themselves. This is urban combat with a deeply entrenched enemy, across a vast area of land where everyone and their auntie has a machine gun close at hand. I don't mean to offend any Americans reading this but yank soldiers are quite possibly the worst equipped and least experienced to deal with this situation. By most accounts they have serious trouble building up trust with the locals, they are gung-ho, reckless and in the words of John Simpson they have a habit of "shooting first and asking who they shot later". Indeed a British army Staff Sergeant once told me that American soldiers are great blokes but when the shooting starts, he'd be much more worried about being shot with a round from an M-16 than an AK-47. So combined with the current administration's apparent lack of any clue as to what they're actually doing or why they're doing it, it's no wonder that there's a steady stream of folded American flags heading back to the states.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"When will people stop acting as though this is some enormous casualty rate?"
I don't even know how to respond to that. Over a hundred American soldiers and who knows how many Iraqis were killed in the past month, when the war was supposed to have ended a year ago, and you just shrug and say "Eh. No biggie."?
Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :
Dismissing casualties is easy when you're nothing but a pathetic armchair quarterback with a grip on reality that doesn't reach beyond your living room and there's no possibility you'll ever have to answer for the mistakes of your team, isn't it?
"I was going to make the obvious analogy about life forms which prefer the dark places..."
The analogy in which Flare's the rock and you're the cockroach, you mean?
Posted by Highway Hoss (Member # 1289) on :
quote:Originally posted by Cartman: Dismissing casualties is easy when you're nothing but a pathetic armchair quarterback with a grip on reality that doesn't reach beyond your living room and there's no possibility you'll ever have to answer for the mistakes of your team, isn't it?
Certainly this article illustrates that point. These people keep squealing about supporting the troops but when its time to "walk the walk" they fall far short in supporting the widows and orphans of the dead (never mind the troops themselves).
The thing is that the majority of policymakers who concoted these policies are "chickenhawks"; people who scream for war but have never served in combat and have no idea of the reality of the frontlines. Both Bush and Cheny, for example used various means to avoid serving in Vietnam.
Posted by Highway Hoss (Member # 1289) on :
quote:Originally posted by Reverend: Anyone who didn't expect a blood bath when invading and occupying a country like Iraq was deluding themselves. This is urban combat with a deeply entrenched enemy, across a vast area of land where everyone and their auntie has a machine gun close at hand. I don't mean to offend any Americans reading this but yank soldiers are quite possibly the worst equipped and least experienced to deal with this situation. By most accounts they have serious trouble building up trust with the locals, they are gung-ho, reckless and in the words of John Simpson they have a habit of "shooting first and asking who they shot later". Indeed a British army Staff Sergeant once told me that American soldiers are great blokes but when the shooting starts, he'd be much more worried about being shot with a round from an M-16 than an AK-47. So combined with the current administration's apparent lack of any clue as to what they're actually doing or why they're doing it, it's no wonder that there's a steady stream of folded American flags heading back to the states.
No offense taken, Reverend; as a matter of fact, many American officers have complained loudly about the lack of adequate training and equipment for US soldiers at the knife's edge. Colonel David Hackworth has been particulary vocal on this subject in his books "About Face", Hazardous Duty" and "Steel my Soldiers' Hearts". The website Soldiers for the Truth has also been a forum for those soldiers pushing for reform.
The biggest problem IMHO has been a collective case of denial concerning the experiences of the Vietnam War by American military and political officials; too many of them tend to treat Vietnam as an anamoly rather than take a hard, objective look at what happened. As I noted in another post, what makes it worse is that the majority of the architects of Bush's pre-emptive war policy are "chickenhawks"; those who scream loudly for war but avoid serving in the military themselves. These policy makers are living in an academic never-never land totally at odds with the reality of the world. BTW this is a failing of both Democrats and Republicans; look at some of Clinton's interventions.
As for hearts and minds, too many American troops seem to subscribe to the notion that "If you have them by the balls, their hearts and minds will follow." IMHO our collective problem is quite simply that since the majority of Americans are descended from or are immigrants from other countries who came to the US for a new life, we tend to have a dim view of the rest of the world, seeking to either isolate ourselves from it or change it so that it is more to our liking.
Another factor is our history of "Manifest Destiny"; American history have always had an expansionist streak. Look at the Mexican and Spanish-American wars, for example. We figure that if we can tame the "Wild West" and the indians, we can tame the rest of the world and its natives as well.
Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :
quote:Both Bush and Cheny, for example used various means to avoid serving in Vietnam.
So did Kerry. He just didn't succeed.
Anyway, Cartman, it's good to know you're still displaying the same staggering poop-flinging ability which you possessed when last I was here. Although your jumping up and down and screeching style has flagged somewhat.
"Armchair quarterback" fits you at least as well as it does me. Probably better. So continue to call the kettle black, pot boy.
Posted by Jay the Obscure (Member # 19) on :
quote:Originally posted by First of Two:
quote:Both Bush and Cheny, for example used various means to avoid serving in Vietnam.
So did Kerry. He just didn't succeed.
A tale of two pieces of paper.
George W. Bush: [I] do not volunteer for overseas.
Tsk, tsk, tsk.
Posted by Nim the Fanciful (Member # 205) on :
First of Two: "Since when has a lack of updated information been cause for a lack of press coverage?"
Since about the time of establishment of modern press, in the early 1600's. When lack of development occurs in a story, or public interest sways away from the issue, attention is moved to more interesting things.
Chronicles, independent articles and essays can still be written with total freedom of subject (and a good thing that is), but they can't excpect the big media to follow.
The article you posted at the beginning may be an example, something that may have deserved more attention but was left out from the big portals, were 'hotter' news fly. I haven't heard a court update on Milosevic's trial for many months, it appears even Haag has stopped trying to churn out development in the issue.
Cartman correctly adressed all the points and more in his first post, from the POV of judging Bosnia/Iraq news relevancy. If he was being harsh in his first remark, the "bottom-dweller" response was harsher.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"When lack of development occurs in a story, or public interest sways away from the issue, attention is moved to more interesting things."
Exactly. Why d'you think no-one's mentioned the search for bin Laden in over a year?
Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :
Pot boy. I like that. Will you be my kettle bitch, Firsty?
And thanks, Rob. I couldn't have asked for a better teacher.
Nim: you haven't heard any updates because the prosecution rested its Croatia/Bosnia/Herzegovina case in february and the defense won't commence its case until june (provided Milosevic is deemed "medically fit" to stand trial and doesn't die in his cell first, that is).
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by TSN:
"When lack of development occurs in a story, or public interest sways away from the issue, attention is moved to more interesting things."
Exactly. Why d'you think no-one's mentioned the search for bin Laden in over a year?
quote:Agents found nearly half a million rounds of ammunition, more than 60 pipe bombs, machine guns, silencers and remote-controlled bombs disguised as briefcases. Pamphlets on how to make chemical weapons and racist literature were also discovered.
Beside containers of hydrochloric, nitric and acetic acids, agents found more than 800 grams of almost pure sodium cyanide, enough to create a bomb that could kill everyone inside a 30,000-square-foot building, federal authorities said.
The findings led to one of the most extensive investigations of domestic terrorism since the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing.
This story was reported on the very last page of today's newspaper: it was one column wide with three paragraphs.
Nothing on CNN about it at all.
Posted by Grokca (Member # 722) on :
Half a million rounds of ammunition, more than 60 pipe bombs, machine guns, silencers and remote-controlled bombs disguised as briefcases, hydrochloric, nitric and acetic acids, 800 grams of almost pure sodium cyanide don't kill people, people kill people.
Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :
But he never meant to hurt anyone. He said so himself.
Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jay the Obscure:
quote:Originally posted by First of Two:
quote:Both Bush and Cheny, for example used various means to avoid serving in Vietnam.
At the time, many thought the war would be over soon, and that a year's deferral of service could render enlistment unnecessary.
However, as is a notable pattern for a man who served 20 years in Congress without making a signifigant contribution, he failed to achieve his objective.
quote: A former Navy doctor who says he treated Sen. John Kerry for the wound that led to his first Purple Heart in Vietnam said yesterday that several of Kerry's crewmates told him at the time that the injury did not occur in battle.
Posted by Veers (Member # 661) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon:
quote:Agents found nearly half a million rounds of ammunition, more than 60 pipe bombs, machine guns, silencers and remote-controlled bombs disguised as briefcases. Pamphlets on how to make chemical weapons and racist literature were also discovered.
Beside containers of hydrochloric, nitric and acetic acids, agents found more than 800 grams of almost pure sodium cyanide, enough to create a bomb that could kill everyone inside a 30,000-square-foot building, federal authorities said.
The findings led to one of the most extensive investigations of domestic terrorism since the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing.
This story was reported on the very last page of today's newspaper: it was one column wide with three paragraphs.
Granted, this was buried on their web page, but it's there, and was posted yesterday. It may not have been on CNN TV, though.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I watched CNN for about three hours last night (I was building an Akira model) and over an hour today and heard nothing.
I dont scout their website on my days off work though.
Still, if anything should've been a headline, it's this. Not a picture of Bush and Rumsfeld and a insightful headline about how the president's "not happy".
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Cartman: But he never meant to hurt anyone. He said so himself.
The NRA would consider him to be "defending himself". Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :
Naah. At best "preparing to defend himself," as he'd never actually used anything.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
That we know of, anyway.
Where in fuck's name did he get all the cyanide?!?
I cant get more than a beaker witho...er... mabye I've said too much already. Posted by Jay the Obscure (Member # 19) on :
*ahem*
YOU KNOW JOHN KERRY HAD TO BE IN FREKIN' VIETNAM TO GET ANY SORT OF COMMENDATION LIKE THE PURPLE HEART...
Because Mr. Bush, RATHER THAN VOLUNTEER TO GOT TO VIETNAM, WHICH HE COULD HAVE, was busy cracking brewskies in Texas and not showing up for duty in Alabama, or he was there, to get his teeth examined.
Did Mr. Bush VOLUNTEER to take the skills he learned in the National Guard, skills that cost the American Taxpayer a lot of money to teach him, to the place the Army needed them?
NO!!
He decided he needed to get out of the freakin' Guard EARLY so he could go to business school!
Talk about devotion to duty.
But I supposed those non-partisan "Swift Boat Veterans for Truth" now think that these are GREAT qualifications for making someone commander-in-chief.
The FREAKIN' GALL of the Pro-Bush crowd never ceases to amaze me.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
So, John Kerry made a short-lived attempt to put off going to war for a year by continuing to educate himself. When they told him, no, he then explicitly volunteered to be shipped to Vietnam, where his service garnered almost nothing but praise from his commanders and peers. And now that people are questioning him, he released all of his records so that everything is in the open.
On the other hand, George Bush explicitly did not volunteer to go overseas. He used his family's money and position to get a cushy National Guard spot where he barely even showed up for duty. Then he got out of duty early, ostensibly for education, but really he just goofed off while at school.
Regarding the Purple Heart thing... The government awarded it to him. If he didn't deserve it, what are you suggesting their reason was for giving it to him? Has this all been some 30-odd-year-long conspiracy to get Kerry elected president? And even if his first wound was minor, what about the other two PHs he got? Bush has zero. Some "war president", considering he's never been anywhere near a war in his life.
Oh, and as far as "Swift Boat Veterans for Truth" are concerned, I have little doubt that they're anything but a huge fraud. If they supposedly have this damning letter signed by every one of Kerry's commanders, why isn't it prominently displayed on their Web site? Why isn't it on their Web site at all? Considering the kind of things Kerry's superiors wrote about him during the war, I find it hard to believe that they've all suddenly gone from "he's so awesome" to "he's the worst person in the world". That, and John O'Neill is a lying Republican shill.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
On the other matter, about the Texas terrorists... I remember hearing about that story back when it broke. Although, I'm pretty sure mainstream media coverage was extremely slim. However, I'm not so surprised that the current developments are being largely ignored. I mean, all it is is the conviction and sentencing. It was a much bigger story (or should have been) back when they first found this stuff.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Well, it would've been the biggest story of the year....
If he was an Arab-American.
Then he'd be in some hole with no trial, no lawyer and no visitors- forever.
This fuck-o only got 11 years.
Posted by Jay the Obscure (Member # 19) on :
I think the guy is 62, so it's not nothing.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
It's not consecutive life-sentences to make an example of him either: after all, if they found one nut with a cache of weapons, there's a dozen more out there.
They need (the FBI)to dig into his financial records to see both where he got the money for this arsenal and if he sold any of it for cash.
Nobody stockpiles pipe bombs for home defense. Posted by Jay the Obscure (Member # 19) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: Nobody stockpiles pipe bombs for home defense.
What, are you anti-Second Amendment or something? Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :
"Nobody stockpiles pipe bombs for home defense."
You haven't seen my house. B)
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
How 'bout we leave it at "Nobody sane stockpiles pipe bombs for home defense."
'cause, that's what swords are for. Duh.
Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :
The voices in my head tell me that I'm totally sane.
Now, if you'll excuse me, I must go plant some laser trip mines.
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