Or at least members of the Left who do stupid things like this.
Ted Rall's always been over the top and it's his opinion, but that's just mean-spirited.
Apparently, MSNBC.com removed the offending comic.
Posted by Highway Hoss (Member # 1289) on :
You think that's offensive? Try this. Posted by Jay the Obscure (Member # 19) on :
The word "hero� may be bandied about too easily, since it has come to mean every soldier, American that is, who fought in any war.
Except for John Kerry of course.
I do think, however, that the folks who serve or have served in the armed forces, especially in times of war, those who did their duty to the best of their ability, deserve our collective respect. None more so than those who saw combat.
Mr. Tillman may or may not have been a hero. Since he died in combat, I�m inclined to give his memory the benefit of the doubt.
But I�m also not ok with the Right calling every soldier save Democrats, John Kerry and Max Cleland come to mind, heros.
And I�m certainly not ok with the Left holding this man up as a sap or an idiot.
There are certainly places to fight your ideological battles.
It ain�t one of those places.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"But I�m also not ok with the Right calling every soldier save Democrats, John Kerry and Max Cleland come to mind, heros."
Or Republicans who oppose Bush, i.e. John McCain.
Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :
quote:The Portland, Ore., chapter of Indymedia.org posted the news of Tillman's death accompanied by this headline: "Dumb Jock Killed in Afghanistan." Some who posted comments suggested alternate titles for the piece, like "Privileged Millionaire, Blinded by Nationalist Mythology, Pisses Away the Good Life," "Cottled Sports Star Allows Nationalism to Foster Jingoistic Irresponsibility Resulting in His Death," and "Capitalist Chooses to Kill Innocents Instead of Cashing Check."
Others made comments on the site comparing Tillman to a Nazi and accusing him of responsibility for "the deaths of hundreds, maybe thousands of Afghan civilians." "Karma sure is a b----, isn't it, Tillman?" one sneered.
The Urbana-Champaign, Ill., chapter of Indymedia.org posted two articles about Tillman. One carried the headline "Pat Tillman is gone good riddance." The other labeled all soldiers "dumb-a--(es)."
The North Carolina Indymedia chapter also posted a piece labeling soldiers like Tillman "dumb-a--(es)" and added that Tillman was killed during a "baby-killing raid." San Francisco Indymedia posted the same piece. St. Louis Indymedia stated that Tillman was "brainwashed by the 'patriotism.'"
One commenter on the Washington, D.C., Indymedia site wrote this: "I saw the Post this morning, on the front page. It was sickening. They built this guy up like he was Audie Murphy or something, publishing this foto of him in his Ranger getup, all tough-looking and stony-jawed, like a goddamn' recruiting ad ... Puke-o-rama. Cold as it may sound, 'Dumb Jock Dies for Pipeline in Afghanistan' pretty much sums it up."
I'd really like to believe that these people aren't the mainstream left. Please tell me that despite their apparent numbers, they're just a fringe group of imbeciles?
Posted by Jay the Obscure (Member # 19) on :
I�m not even sure I�d hold Ted Rall up as representative of mainstream liberal thought, let alone the people at Indymedia.org.
But is that what you want to do?
Do you really want me to go get "representatives� of the Right and post the wacky stuff they say? If so, FreeRepublic.com has quite a few folks representing main stream conservative thought.
Do you want to defend Ann Coulter as a mainstream conservative?
Again, Posted by Veers (Member # 661) on :
The people who wrote those articles are idiots, plain and simple. As much as we criticize the right, we can always be reminded that people just as vicious speak for the left...
Posted by Saltah'na (Member # 33) on :
RIGHT RULZ LEFT ALL TEH WAY!!!
Posted by Highway Hoss (Member # 1289) on :
Let's face it in today's media enviorment the extremists are the ones who shout the loudest and are heard the most often....regardless on how I feel about Bush and his policies, I do believe Tillman deserves some respect for fighting for what he believed in. Insulting someone in that manner strikes me as just plain crass. I may critize Bush and his policies but I would never go to that kind of level.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
For once, I completely agree with you, HH.
How many of these "critics" can really say they would have given up millions of dollars and a life fame and fortune to serve their country in any way?
None.
How trendy to speak out against the people serving in the military....way to re-live the 1960's. Really. They're noble protestors trying to make a diffrence. Really. Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"St. Louis Indymedia stated that Tillman was 'brainwashed by the "patriotism."'"
I just looked, and StL Indymedia does not in fact have an article about Tillman. Possibly some user posted something about it. But, then, that's what happens when you have public comments. It would be like writing an article that says "according to the Flare Sci-Fi Forums", and then quotes one of us.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
That would be cool. We would be famous. I would get babes!
Posted by Nim the Fanciful (Member # 205) on :
Or you'd end up in a Manchester military depot, having to shoot zombies in the ass and eat bad omelet.
The "brainwash"-component of Basic Military Training is the same in every military, and it is a correct term. There's nothing negative or positive in the term, that's just how the media spins it. Naturally you get "brainwashed" to some degree when being subjected to disindividualization (mm), heavy exposure to movies, books and speeches teaching you to be one with the military, and working day and night with a squad, learning to work as a team.
That's very personality-challenging. What's bad with "brainwashing" depends on what the people administering it will use it for, or to which degree they "break you down". If you have a good reason, like managing an army, while taking responsibility for it and always making sure you're doing it with welfare and a solid core of ethics behind you, it works.
When amateurish fucking civilians in groups use coercive persuasion and mind control (the correct terms for "brainwashing") without outside supervision or legal right, merely to make a profit ($ientology), saving people from hell (Latter-day saints, moonists) or just making the subject a drooling Yes-sayer and zealous henchman, you're abusing the technique.
Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :
True enough. Militaries break your personality down to make you mentally tougher. Cults break it down to make you a slobbering zombie. Psychology can be a VERY destructive tool in the wrong hands.
Posted by Highway Hoss (Member # 1289) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nim the Fanciful: Naturally you get "brainwashed" to some degree when being subjected to disindividualization (mm), heavy exposure to movies, books and speeches teaching you to be one with the military, and working day and night with a squad, learning to work as a team.
That's very personality-challenging. What's bad with "brainwashing" depends on what the people administering it will use it for, or to which degree they "break you down". If you have a good reason, like managing an army, while taking responsibility for it and always making sure you're doing it with welfare and a solid core of ethics behind you, it works.
Bingo. Proper military training is designed to help new recruits cope with the stress of the battle field so that when the bullets and shells start flying, they will be able to react accordingly. As Colonel David Hackworth once noted, the more you sweat in training, the less you bleed on the battlefield.
quote:Originally posted by Nim the Fanciful: When amateurish fucking civilians in groups use coercive persuasion and mind control (the correct terms for "brainwashing") without outside supervision or legal right, merely to make a profit ($ientology), saving people from hell (Latter-day saints, moonists) or just making the subject a drooling Yes-sayer and zealous henchman, you're abusing the technique.
THis is the real danger of cults and similar groupings; it is not so much a case of belief as it is of behavior. Any group showing such signs of cultlike behavior can be potetially dangerous, no matter what they believe or who they are.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
The military doesnt "brainwash" anyone. Brainwashing involvesusing such novelties as food/sleep deprivation to make people mentally subserviant and then programs them for whatever via intense peer-pressure and negative re-enforcment (getting you to hate your old life).
What the military does is excersise you into the ground, force you to think of the unit before yourself and shove a ton of food down your throat to keep you going. Yes, there's a TON of psychological pressure via POSITIVE re-enforcment (once you toughen up)and there is a lot of re-structuring of habits, but that's in NO WAY brainwasing.
Ask someone that's actually in the service: these guys arent the mindless zombies depicted in movies: they gripe, have opinions, and in hundreds of cases a year, wash out during training or after.
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)