I attended a Veterans Day Parade last Saturday in Auburn, Washington and was disturbed at what I saw. Families passing out flags to their children to wave as the parade passed by...patriotic right?
While watching the families, I noticed that the flags, in the hands of the children 2 to 14 years of age, became quite the play thing after the first 2 to 5 minutes. They were used as swords, tossed like spears, used to poke at litter along the street, used as a brooms, thrust about so they poked the individuals, who were walking on the sidewalk, in the shins, backs, and faces.
Not once did I see or hear a parent correct their child(ren)'s behavior--teaching of flag ettiquette, respect for flag or for the people around them who were being poked or having flags flung in their faces or camera lenses.
Long gone are the days of strangers being able to say something without getting a "how dare you correct my child or tell me how to be a parent"
Has the flag been reduced to a superficial symbol of patriotism without any meaning, thought, caring, or respect behind it? Or even worse, is it just a toy to the general population?
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Well, one might point to the proliferation of suction-cup plastic flags attached to rusted out, hillbilly driven pickup trucks ever since the September 11 attacks as an answer to your question.
Keep in mind, too... you're talking about 5 year olds.
Posted by Daryus Aden (Member # 12) on :
An'on: You can't be serious.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
Foreigners burnt the Stars & Stripes because they don't like Americans. This salient fact seemed to escape most people, so they tried crashing into you with planes instead. What I want to know is, where does your average Iraqi mob GET an American flag to burn? Is there a thriving cottage industry in knockoff flags for burning at rallies and riots? Or are they buying them online from burnourflag.com?
The big problem with that hoo-hah ten years back about burning the flag, freedom of expression etc. was that the people indicted for flag-burning were morons. I mean, presumably they did really love their country but felt the need to express their distate with its policies. Unfortunately they chose a really stupid way to do it, which probably more than anything firmed up conservatives' minds that people who didn't agree with them were unAmerican traitors.
I'm pissed off with what Blair has done to Britain, he's gotten us involved in an illegal war that shows no sign of ending, and the only thing that seems to be saving us from being the next big Al-Qaeda target is the fact that we've always had a nice big secret police organisation, operating without any form of constitutional oversight, to protect us. The fucker's almost made the Conservative Party electable again for Christ's sake. Yet I don't feel any need to go torch a Union Jack. What good would it do?
A flag is just a symbol. It means to you whatever you want it to mean. Just don't get upset if others see it differently. Especially bloody children, how are they supposed to know what a flag represents to you, and why should they care? I wouldn't worry, the way things are going they'll soon be getting fully indoctrinated in the correct behaviour, joining the Cheney Youth, pledging allegiance to God, President Bush and the DisneyCoke corporation.
So, treat the flag however you like, wrap yourself in it naked and lie there quivering in barely-suppressed ecstasy if you wish. Don't expect everyone else to do the same.
A flag represents a country - but it isn't the country.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 24) on :
quote:Originally posted by an'on: Families passing out flags to their children to wave as the parade passed by...patriotic right? ... Has the flag been reduced to a superficial symbol of patriotism without any meaning, thought, caring, or respect behind it? Or even worse, is it just a toy to the general population?
Well, from a foreign perspective, where we aren't nearly as keen with the flag waving, it sounds like you've just got into a cycle.
Only so many people are genuinely patriotic, past a certain point people must be waving the flag just out of peer pressure or tradition. On a trip into New York state, I noticed that there were literally streets where every house had a flag posted. I was previously under the impression that this kind of thing only happened in movies.
Thus, you have people who get into waving the flag for whatever non-patriotic reason, then get their kids to do it for the same reason, that passes to their children, and etc.
Or perhaps there's a simpler definition. Rare things tend to be valuable, things that are common tend not to be.
Posted by an'on (Member # 222) on :
In response to "An'on: You can't be serious."
Not aware that they've even talked about a constitutional amendment against being serious....yet. ;-)
Understand that children are lacking in education and awareness, but their parents should have some responsibility to remedy that. What a great teaching opportunity...Family together without tv interuption, parade to honor Vetrans that they've chosen to attend, flags that are symbols...
The most disturbing was the parents were not teaching their children to be respectful of others around them while providing them with means to do damage. They seemed quite oblivious that the flags in the hands of their children had become weapons.
Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
I've never understood the American obsession with their flag. Its just a flag! And an ugly one at that.
Posted by Saltah'na (Member # 33) on :
Ya know, I thought this was going to be another one of those "You're With Us Or Against Us" arguments.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
Actually, I rather like the US flag.
I wonder if there was a competition to decide the best national flag, from a design/aesthetic perspective, which would win?
I'd put a Competition together, but there's no point - over-patriotic twits like an'on would vote for their own flag.
Posted by Daryus Aden (Member # 12) on :
Yes, well. There's only one place for paitriotism - international sporting events. Everywhere else it tends to be a blinding, dividing perspective on 'the truth'.
Observation: I just love the way that some people quote their 'rights' as per the US constitution, in a forum of international discussion. Yes you have the right to speak freely, so do I, so does Lee, or anyone else from the 'free world' (or whatever you want to call it). Just try and remember that the USA's constitution, whislt a positive influence, is totally irrelevant to non Americans.
Have a nice flag Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
Actually, I've been told by those who Love Freedom on other Forums that only people in the Land Of Liberty have the right of free expression, and to do that we have to go and live in the Land Of The Free. Better all go get our Green Cards then. 8)
Posted by Pensive's Left testes for mayor... (Member # 1203) on :
quote: The most disturbing was the parents were not teaching their children to be respectful of others around them while providing them with means to do damage. They seemed quite oblivious that the flags in the hands of their children had become weapons.
They will when one of the childre pokes a eye out and the family sues the flag company (The great American Way, Lawsuits.)
Now here is something we always read when we retire someone ...
Cheeze website IMO but isn't everything online over rated in some fashion or degree?
Posted by Daryus Aden (Member # 12) on :
The bloke who wrote that poem should be drawn and quartered.
Lee - OF COURSE! How silly of me. I'd better go and sit in the corner before I say something doubleplusgood.
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 138) on :
I am a veteran. For me and other military people the US flag holds a great deal of honor, pride, respect and tradition. That's why even if you're doing morning and evening colors (raising and lowering the flag at 8am and sunset) you wear your best dress uniform.
As for which country has the best looking flag, it's all a matter of opinion. I don't know how you could think it's ugly Topher. One of the things that make it stand out is it's easily recognizable by almost everyone. The only other flags that I can think of off the top of my head that are just as recognizable are the UK's, Canada, Austraila, Japan. So many other countries have flags that are mostly the same colors just organized in a different pattern.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
I've always been fond of Ghana's flag. . . Maybe it's because I used to live there, but the experience wasn't exactly a fond one. I just like the colours.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
The US flag sits right on the dividing line between "individual" and "ugly". Stripes a rarely a good fashion statement, and the blue just seems to clash with the white and red. It is preferable to yet another version of the Tricolour (however that's spelt) though.
Personally, I'd vote for the Japanese flag. It's simple, but effective. Although the South Korean one is a good attempt at pimping it up.
Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
Pensive-longasshandle: "Now here is something we always read when we retire someone..."
Hmm, that takes long to read through. Wouldn't Ezekiel 25:17 be better?
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Also:
quote:I am recognized all over the world. I am worshipped . . . I am saluted . . . I am respected . . . I am revered . . . I am loved . . . And I am feared.
Yes. No. No. No. No. No. Yes.
Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
A little late for trimming the verge?
My faivouarite flag is Uruguay. It is a happy flag, reminds me of swimming and summer. The opposite would be Albania, to me. Fire and death it portends.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Me, I'm partial towards Greenland's. Apart from Japan's, it's the only one that draws its inspiration directly from untamed nature. This gives a hint of persistence and significance beyond mere human affairs.
The green flags of certain arid North African countries are also touching, as strong symbols of what is not. They are about hope, and desire, and also all the misery that their pursuit has caused. I gather the flag of Vulcan would be solid green, too.
In comparison, stars and stripes and tricolors and their historical symbolism are... I guess the best word is "petty". So are the assorted crosses, including ours - but at least there's aesthetically pleasant controlled asymmetry in the shape.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
And, of course, the Welsh flag has a dragon, so it automatically wins.
Posted by Jay the Obscure (Member # 19) on :
Reminds me of the Delta Air Lines logo, just different colors.
B.J.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Delta actually treated me alright on my recent Florida excursion. My last experience with them was dreadful. But this one has restored their good standing.
Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
Wales is not the country.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"And, of course, the Welsh flag has a dragon, so it automatically wins."
Well, it's good they have something going for them...
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
Qatars' is interesting, not my fav, but interesting.
Posted by japol (Member # 1149) on :
Well I don't know what I think of the American flag in a design sense...
All I know is we stole the design (from a VERY appropriate source) along with the tune for our national anthem (which originated as a British drinking song).
I don't get the hint, what's appropriate with East India Company?
Posted by Ace (Member # 389) on :
Obviously, he's suggesting that we Americans are imperialists like the East India Company and its relationship with India. Ah well, I suppose next he'll suggest that because the Nazis and Romans used eagles, that really says something about people who use the eagle as a symbol, too...
Posted by Mucus (Member # 24) on :
Good point. I never would have thought of that, but now that you mention it...
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
We should have listened to Ben Franklin...
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Hobbes: As for which country has the best looking flag, it's all a matter of opinion. I don't know how you could think it's ugly Topher. One of the things that make it stand out is it's easily recognizable by almost everyone. The only other flags that I can think of off the top of my head that are just as recognizable are the UK's, Canada, Austraila, Japan. So many other countries have flags that are mostly the same colors just organized in a different pattern.
Exactly: not even attractive colors either: purple and orange should never be together on a flag. The color brown should be excluded entirely. Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
I wasn't aware that there were any countries with purple on their flag, much less any with both purple and orange (orange isn't very common, either).
Posted by The Captain from M.I.K.E. (Member # 709) on :
There is no purple and orange squadron!
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
I got a flag to wave around at parades or something when I was in this age demographic.
My roommate really wanted to go see Ozzfest in Auburn.
Therefore I think I can safely say that I'm the most qualified person to comment on this, and I say it is silly.
Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
Sol System: "My roommate really wanted to go see Ozzfest in Auburn."
They have flagwaving in Austere, very fast, verry dangerous.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nim: Wales is not the country.
Well, technically no, but try telling them that.
(And the whole situation is confusing anyway. I've read "The countries that make up the United Kingdom" more than once, but since they are all ultimatly ruled by Parliamnent, then you could argue that the UK is the country too.)
(And in any event, Tim is right...that is all they have going for them.)
Posted by Balaam Xumucane (Member # 419) on :
Don't tread on me.
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
quote:Originally posted by PsyLiam:
quote:Originally posted by Nim: Wales is not the country.
Well, technically no, but try telling them that.
(And the whole situation is confusing anyway. I've read "The countries that make up the United Kingdom" more than once, but since they are all ultimatly ruled by Parliamnent, then you could argue that the UK is the country too.)
(And in any event, Tim is right...that is all they have going for them.)
Well, technically four nations (England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland/Ulster) make up the United Kingdom (the state). So we are a multi-national state. Of course, it all gets rather complicated with the Irish and Cornish and so on, not to mention that there's been so much inter-breeding over the years (except in Boston) that it's probably just easier to say British and Britain. And that's the simple version...
quote: What I want to know is, where does your average Iraqi mob GET an American flag to burn? Is there a thriving cottage industry in knockoff flags for burning at rallies and riots? Or are they buying them online from burnourflag.com?
I sense a business opportunity. Maybe we could make flags that burn with different colours, like fireworks...
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Mabye we could make edible flags: perfect for ending the fas at Ramadan. Later, we could branch out into insence sented flags: nothing soothes the arab spirit like the relaxing burning of an armoatherapy flag....
Heck, we could make kinda a "western" collage of all the flags the Jihad is against- to get the maximum disrespect from each burned effigy....
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