Flare Sci-Fi Forums: A concern I have about the message that Star Trek may be sending

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Posted by colin (Member # 217) on :

Recently, I learned that one of the starships in Star Trek is named after the Santa Maria, Columbus' flagship in 1492.
I began to think about the reasons that the creators of Star Trek would want to name a ship after a ship of a man who decimated an entire tribe of Native Americans.
There seems to be an affinity for the Spaniards since the first series-a shuttlecraft is named Columbus. And in later series, there have been two ships named Santa Maria, a ship named Cortez, and a ship named Malinche.
The Spaniards who came to America were the first European settlers to practice genocidal warfare against the aborgines who inhabited these lands. Centuries later, the creators of a sci-fi show are honoring these people by having their heroes, a flagship of one of the heroes, and the concubine of Cortez on the names of their ships. And further, in this same sci-fi franchise, genocide is seen as a necessity when the future of an entire nation is threatened. (I do know that the creators allowed the characters to find a cure. This cure was used to heal a friend of theirs. If Odo wasn't a friend of theirs, would they have found the cure and saved 'him' and his race?)
My concern is that the writers and producers of Star Trek are condoning genocide on limited grounds-national necessity-and condemning genocide when national necessity was not threatened ("Remember", "Memorial"). For those who watch the shows, will they receive the message that genocide can be used as a means to preserve nation and self? And what does this say about us as a people?
This is my concern.

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takeoffs are optional; landings are mandatory

Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

I don't think the producers/name-choosers put that much thought in it, they just wanted some cool, deep names. As for condoning genocide, it's not something to be proud of, but in total war any group would prefer the total obliteration of the other side rather than it's own...

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And by the way, I faked all the orgasms.

Leslie Nielsen, in "Room With A View With A Staircase In A Pond"

Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :

You have to remember that ST is still a commercial TV show, so a USS Columbus is commercially more attractive than, say, the USS Xiuhtechutli (Mayan God of Fire).

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"Human race in tha house!" KoRn & Kittie, This Town
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Titan Fleet Yards - Harry Doddema's Star Trek Site

Posted by Fructose (Member # 309) on :

I think they were going for the explorer theme when they chose names. And one of the Space Shuttles is names Columbus.

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It doesn't matter if you don't know what you're doing as long as you look good doing it.

Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

Isn't that "Columbia"?

Posted by Fructose (Member # 309) on :

Oh yeah. My bad.

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It doesn't matter if you don't know what you're doing as long as you look good doing it.

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

Well, the name "Columbia" is dervied directly from "Columbus"...

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"If the rope is a quarter of a Zeuslength in size, then the Defiant shalt most naturally be seven times the thirty-second part of a Zeuslength?"
-Boris Skrbic, 27-Sep-2000

Posted by Dukhat (Member # 341) on :

I also wondered about this at one time, too, especially with the Cortez. However, not very many people know that the real Cortez was a butchering conquerer; he certainly was never portrayed in that light when I learned about him and other conquistadores back in elementary school. Conversely, I'm pretty sure that we will never see a U.S.S. Hitler or a Stalin-class starship either, simply because EVERYBODY knows how hideous those men were. I came to the conclusion that there isn't any ulterior motive with starship naming, and that most of these names are randomly applied unless there's a specific reason for the name. I'd bet that if Brannon Braga had his way, I'm sure every ship in Starfleet would be named after a city in Montana.

Of course there's always the cop-out that "Cortez" or "Malinche" is referring not to who we think they are, but to some fictitious future people in the ST universe with the same last names. Yeah, right...

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Homer: "Weaseling out of bets is what separates man from all the other animals...except the weasel."

[This message has been edited by Dukhat (edited September 28, 2000).]

Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :

Why fictitious? It's not as if the dude who sailed to SA was the ONLY Cortez EVER born. And wasn't there a Malinche somewhere in Trek? That guy that was wounded and subsequently died in "The Ship", maybe? Dying in an operation like that might just warrant a ship named after you. Especially with 'Fleet's thousands of ships, as they gotta get names somewhere.

And for all we know, the Columbus could have been named after the city in Ohio.

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"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
- George Bernard Shaw

Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :

Good grief, the breast-beating self-flagellation of PC rears its ugly head.

Perhaps to make up for it, we can name a ship the USS White Oppressor, or something.

Geez, I mean shese ships are named for explorers. Jerks, maybe, but still explorers. Sure, we need some ships named after Zheng He (China to Africa, Arabia, and India, 1405-1433) and other folks like him, but of course, the USA people whom the show is primarily made for might not find those names as easily recognizable (or pronouncable).

It's not a deliberate attempt to render irrelevant what happened to the Native American populace.

And virtually everyone sensible outside of Section 31 found their actions as reprehensible as we did. Sure, the Federation Council may not have wanted to give the Founders the cure, and that was wrong, but the reason is understandable. They were scared. There was a good chance that they were all going to be wiped out at any time. And in that situation, one rule applies: "Better you than me."

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"Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ty Kwan Leap. Approach me, that you might see." -- The Master

[This message has been edited by First of Two (edited September 28, 2000).]

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

I've got an urge to go listen to "Politically Correct" by SR-71 ...

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From the dawn of toys we came, living secretly among your cherished treasures, moving through the toy chests, until the time of the Gathering, when those who remain will battle for the prize. In the end, there can be only one ... LEGOLANDER!
***
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Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

How quickly we forget "Journey's End", which dealt with this very topic.

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love's function is to fabricate unknownnness
--
E. E. Cummings
****
Read chapter one of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! And party everyday.

Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

One might want to think of this in the 24th century context. Perhaps by that time, Columbus' exploits are no big issue? After all, people generally don't associate Queen Victoria or Julius Caesar with the misery they wrought when they no longer have to live with the consequences. A world "de-Columbized" by all the good we see in TNG might not care much about what went wrong back in the early 1500s and plagued us until the mid-2000s, if it's all in the distant past.

Note that a major starship is also named after the Soviet general Zhukov, the man who won WWII in Europe. Considered controversial at best, Zhukov probably had far more lives on his conscience than ol' Chris (although most of those were by proxy of Stalin and his "strategic decisions", of course). It can also be argued that Zhukov was elemental in the creation of the Soviet sphere of influence in Europe, and thus to blame for the eventual fates of East European nations.

But Zhukov also beat Hitler (or at least the forces lead and symbolized by Zhukov beat those lead and symbolized by Hitler). What *would* a 24th century historian think of him? Would Zhukov and Churchill and Bismarck and Victoria and Columbus and Genghis Khan pale in comparison to some post-20th-century nefarious figure and thus be rehabilitated or forgotten?

That apart, Santa Maria IMHO is a perfectly good ship name, unless the catholic faith for some reason has been demonized in the 24th century. And one could argue that the ship should be named "USS Ship Named Santa Maria" if the vessel of Columbus were to be indicated - just like the USN can't have a ship named USS Corpus Christi but must use "USS City of Corpus Christi" to avoid religious controversy.

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by colin (Member # 217) on :

I have read your posts and I thank you for your opinions. Some responses I have. First, I am not in favor of political correctness. I think the movement is an overreaction to the criticisms uttered by minority communities in our country. Second, I am troubled by the responses I have received on this forum and at another forum. I feel that there is both a moral and legal obligation that people should take to resolve differences of opinion over an issue or issues. Genocide is not a way to resolve differences. The process is a means to erase the differences and an ethnicity ("race") without solving the issues. From reading the responses, I feel that some of you feel that genocide can be a solution.
My mother and I were having a discussion about the Shoah ("Holocaust"). My mother is of the opinion that the Shoah will be remembered by communities and nations for centuries to come as a terrible tragedy not to be repeated. I am of the opinion that the Shoah will be remembered by the Jews, just as they remember the destruction of the Second Temple and the dispersal of their people from Israel, for this is a very personal and emotional event for them. Furthermore, I feel that the non-Jews of the world will come to remember less the events of the Shoah, just as they don't tend to remember the destruction of the Second Temple or the dispersal of the Jews, and will allow a second Shoah to occur. This Shoah may involve the Jews or another ethnicity. After reading the responses, I feel that the process of community forgetfulness is occuring. In several hundred years, there may be yet a ship bearing the name Stalin or Hitler. The community who built those ships will view the men as heroes just as the Mongolians view Genghis Khan as a hero or the Romanians view Vlad the Impaler as a hero. This is a natural process of humanity. There have been many ethnic cleansings in the past, of which I am sure that many are not recorded, and there will be many in the future. And I fear that if humanity does travel to the stars, that humanity will do genocide in the spirit of planetism or some other cause. Star Trek, by depicting a future society of humans, does argue that humans will conduct genocide in the spirit of galactic nationalism and will celebrate men who were responsible for the deaths of thousands and whole ethnicities.

My concern is simply this-Star Trek accepts genocide as a natural progression of humanity's need to survive and that those who did the criminal act should be praised for attempting to save the nation. And if another nation of non-humans engages in this activity, they are criminals and should be tried for their crimes. If you notice at the end of DS9, the Federation scientists who grew the virus against the Founders were never caught and tried as war criminals. Instead, the female Founder was tried as a war criminal for the war and the deaths of tens of millions.

I heard that Star Trek reflects our society. In this instance, I agree. Recently, our nation had the oppurtunity to sign a document that would have created a war crimes tribunal at the UN. We declined. Our country is very willing to try international war criminals for their alleged abuses of human rights in war, yet when faced with abuses by the military and other agencies of the US government will dismiss the charges as trivial and say that the event is a result of national necessity. This is not true for all events, just a majority of them.

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takeoffs are optional; landings are mandatory

Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :

Did you, by any chance, watch Independence Day?

Would you condemn (Will Smith and Jeff Goldblum's characters) for their actions aboard the alien mothership, which almost certainly ended with the annihilation of the alien species? Even though the operative motive was preventing the genocide of our OWN?

Is a FAILED attempt at genocide (and remember not one Founder is known to have actually died) morally equivalent to the real thing on Cardassia? Possibly, I don't know.

Is surrender to an obviously genocidal species (The Founders, or have we so quickly forgotten the Quickening virus) preferable? I doubt it.

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"Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ty Kwan Leap. Approach me, that you might see." -- The Master

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

I don't recall any indication in Independence Day that the entire species was out there to be blown up. But then, I only ever saw it once, and it was a while ago...

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"If the rope is a quarter of a Zeuslength in size, then the Defiant shalt most naturally be seven times the thirty-second part of a Zeuslength?"
-Boris Skrbic, 27-Sep-2000

Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :

Not to get off topic, but I believe that the implication was that the mothership in ID contained the entire species. After the president was telepathically linked in the lab, he said they move from planet to planet and use all the resources until it's dead and then move on. That seemed to be their whole way of life. Of course that could quickly be proven false with the release of a sequel...

And I agree that these ships were named after explorers. Despite all the bad they might have done, these were brave been and women facing the unknown.

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"A gathering of Angels appeared above my head. They sang to me this song of hope, and this is what they said..." -Styx

Aban's Illustration www.thespeakeasy.com/alanfore

Posted by SCSImperium (Member # 397) on :

quote:
I began to think about the reasons that the creators of Star Trek would want to name a ship after a ship of a man who decimated an entire tribe of Native Americans.

Oh, puh-leeze! And I guess Caesar should not have come into Britannia and started to civilize the natives there. Of course, isolation of cultures played a factor in the decimation of the Native Americans, and not with the Anglo-Saxons ...

But what's important is can you equate the two? Say, 1st Century Britain tibes and 16th Century American tribes. That's important in understanding the assimulation, or sometimes decimation, of cultures.

quote:
First, I am not in favor of political correctness.

If not in favor, you're certainly influenced by it.

Genocide is an abused term in our society. In my eyes, there about two incidents in the recorded history of man that are truly genocide. First, the Persian War. To a lesser extent, WW2 Germany. But that's a whole different argument altogether.

First and foremost, read an academic book on the topic of colonization. Then maybe you'll learn about some of the pretty grusome practices of the Aztecs and other tribes of Mexico; thus you can balance your view of this epoch in history.

Anyways, back to the topic. Star Trek script writers pull out names for their ships at random. Whatever symbolism you're trying to hint at was never intended. "Santa Maria" sounds colorful, and of Latin origin. Not unlike some other names that have appeared in Trek.

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-Small Computer Systems Interface "Scuzzy" Emperor

Operator of the Goulag Hotel, maintainer of the workhouses.

Operator of Cargill Conglomerate Publications, http://www.cargillconglomerate.com

"Woman is deprived of rights from lack of education, and the lack of education results from the absence of rights. We must not forget that the subjection of women is so complete, and dates from such distant ages, that we are often unwilling to recognize the gulf that separates them from us."

Tolstoy, on a more objective note.

[This message has been edited by SCSImperium (edited September 29, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by SCSImperium (edited October 01, 2000).]

Posted by Epoch (Member # 136) on :

I find the fact that you feel Star Trek accepts genocide ridiculous. If we started looking at everthing in life that has a link to something bad we would be at it a very long time. Just because someone names there child Adolf this means that they agree with what Hitler did. I'm sorry but that is really pushing the bounds of common sense. It is not always a good idea to look into things any farther then they are intended to be looked at. Not because of what might be there but because you may start to see things that are not there. Sometimes a name is just a name because the writer is to lazy to think up something original. I'm not trying to be rude and I most certainly do not agree with genocide but I feel that people today are always trying to find something to use as a scapegoat.

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Death before Dishonor!
However Dishonor has
quite a disputed defintion.

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

"...the Incans and other tribes of Mexico." The Inca were in Peru, actually...

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"If the rope is a quarter of a Zeuslength in size, then the Defiant shalt most naturally be seven times the thirty-second part of a Zeuslength?"
-Boris Skrbic, 27-Sep-2000

Posted by colin (Member # 217) on :

The Persian War?
What in this war can be described as genocide?

I know some history.
Events that can be equated to genocide.
Romans and the Jews, early CE
Christians and the Jews, last two thousand years
Japanese and the aborgines of Hokkaido, 600's to now
European settlers to America and the aborgines, 1400's to 1800's
European settlers to Australia and the Australians, 1800's
Ottoman Empire and the Armenians, 1916
Shoah, 1940's
China and Tibet, 1950's

Did you know that in a recent test that only two college students out of 50 could identify George Washington as the American leader at Yorktown?

Genocide has become a common theme in recent popular sci-fi movies. ID4 and Galaxy Quest are the two best examples.

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takeoffs are optional; landings are mandatory

Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :

Don't forget the witchunts. Or the Old Testament books in which the Israelites wipe out entire cities.

Of course genocide happens in SF movies... when the big, bad, aliens try to conquer Earth, somebody's gotta die... but I wouldn't say that that's a recent development... remember War of the Worlds? Alien? Flash Gordon? hell, the "To Serve Man" episode of The Twilight Zone! Starship Troopers may be a recent movie, but it's not a recent book. Etc, etc...

As for Washington and Yorktown... that's probably because we think of Washington for more important things, and they tend not to realize that he led the Continental Army all over the place, from New York to Virginia. Really, you'd expect different generals to be in charge in so disparate theatres.

However, I knew. I also know the Brit General was Cornwallis, and that they couldn't escape because of the French fleet.

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"Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ty Kwan Leap. Approach me, that you might see." -- The Master

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

I think (I hope) that society today is moving in a direction in which all wars will be stopped.

Witness the intervention in Kosovo, targetemployee: wouldn't you consider the military action taken as preventing an attempted genocide?

I think the only people naming ships "Hitler" or "Stalin" are going to be racist skinheads, IMHO.

Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :

Or the Empire.

Seriously, as the primary shipkeeper for the Terran Empire Simming Association, I sometimes have a hard time choosing "appropriate" names. I actually DID have to use such names as Hitler & Stalin a couple times.

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"Deviance is not tailored suits or computer geeks/Pierced tongues or sex freaks/love for hire under dirty sheets/I have lived and breathed you...." --Vanessa Daou, "Deviate"

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

Well, I didn't know Washington was at Yorktown. Then again, I don't know a lot of the specifics of the battles of the Revolution. Now, if only two out of fifty college students could say that Yorktown was a battle during the American Revolution, then I'd worry...

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"If the rope is a quarter of a Zeuslength in size, then the Defiant shalt most naturally be seven times the thirty-second part of a Zeuslength?"
-Boris Skrbic, 27-Sep-2000

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

Well, sure, Shik ... but that's TESA ... they're the kind of guys who would look in favor upon genocide!

Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :

The Malinche thing has come up before, about he/she/whu? historically being a traitor of somesuch. I remember RDM retorting that Rene Echevarria, a Mexican, had come up with that name, so nobody should get all high on their hobby horse about it.

BTW, did the thought strike anyone that sombody else with a last name "Cortez" might come to the historical forefront in the next three hundred years?

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"...I was just up in Canada, Toronto actually. You know, they really hate you guys [Americans] up there? The funny thing is, they think you hate them back, when in fact, you just couldn't be bothered to care. Now in Ireland, it's a different story. At least we had the common decency to wait until the English invaded before we started hating them. I guess the Canadians are hating you in advance..."
-Irish Comic Ed Byrne on Canada-US relations

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

I believe someone referred to that as a "cop-out" above. The point, as I understand it, is that the writers are naming ships after people of questionable moral integrity...

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"If the rope is a quarter of a Zeuslength in size, then the Defiant shalt most naturally be seven times the thirty-second part of a Zeuslength?"
-Boris Skrbic, 27-Sep-2000

Posted by SCSImperium (Member # 397) on :

quote:
"...the Incans and other tribes of Mexico." The Inca were in Peru, actually...

Easy to blow holes in my argument when I make such a blatant error. Corrected now ... must've been very late.

Now I do often think of the Persian War when I think of genocide. Not only because of the mass murder---many events in history have that---but its importance as a whole carries weight as well. Western civilization, including any Christianity or whatnot, would not have existed if Greece fell.

And thus I conclude those deaths suffered in the mass scale war between Greece and Persia carry more importance than all the wars to occur after that combined.

Now WWII Germany probably carries no perspective, being very recent. It could very well be in another two hundred years that war will be nothing more than a footnote.

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-Small Computer Systems Interface "Scuzzy" Emperor

Operator of Cargill Conglomerate Publications, http://www.cargillconglomerate.com

"Socialists? They are industrious, commercial people; �the happiness of all� is their case. No, life is only given to me once and I shall never have it again; I don�t want to wait for �the happiness of all.� I want to live myself, or else better not live at all. I simply couldn�t pass by my mother starving, keeping my rouble in my pocket while I waited for the �happiness of all.� I am putting my little brick into the happiness of all and so my heart is at peace.

-Dostoevsky

[This message has been edited by SCSImperium (edited October 01, 2000).]