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Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :

I'm sure this topic has been over-debated, but then again, it keeps us off the streets..

Could it be that this Colonel (wich is a military rank, not a naval) is a Colonel of the Starfleet Marines? Or do they use naval ranks for the Marines as well?

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Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :

quote:
Could it be that this Colonel (wich is a military rank, not a naval) is a Colonel of the Starfleet Marines?

Either this or an Army-officer. But IMO he was a Colonel of the Marines. This fits better to the naval Starfleet rank-system.

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[This message has been edited by Fitz (edited October 22, 2000).]

Posted by Hobbes (Member # 138) on :

Or the ribbons on the uniform for some of the Starfleet officers like Colonel West.

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Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

The navy is military, too, y'know...

And the marines and army use approximately the same rank structure, both of which include "colonel".

'Course, do we know if he was actually a full colonel, or maybe a lieutenant colonel? :-)

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Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :

I do believe he was wearing captain's bars, therefore that would make him a "full bird" colonel.

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Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :

I'd guess that he had some part in ground forces. He WAS involved in planning to rescue planet-based captives, after all. I guess those WOULD be called Marines, who's job, after all, is to do amphibious landings...

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Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

And why pronounce it "curnel"? One of those stupid words, along with forecastle, Worchester and St. John.

Well, I thought I'd try another angle.

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Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

This of course, all goes back to the Marines/Starfleet thing. Do/Don't they exist? This scene is rockhard proof that they do ... or at least, did at one time ...

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Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :

Um...I pronounce my name "Saint John." Simple, really. Although one year at camp, I DID have t'go by "Sinjin"....long story...

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"Two parts slush...one part solid ice...one part hard-packed snow...a dash of assorted debris...sculpt into sphere, and serve at high velocity without warning." --Calvin

Posted by Masao (Member # 232) on :

For all you young 'uns, Colonel West was supposed to be a reference to Colonel Oliver North and all the Iran-Contra mess in the wild wild '80s. (You must remember Fawn Hall?) Oliver North was a Marine, IIRC.

I'm sure Starfleet has a Marine Corps. We were promised a Marine Corps for 500 years after Iwo Jima, but does Starfleet have an Army?

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Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

If we're asking that: would Starfleet have an air force as well?

I don't think there is an "army" that is called such.

I would imagine, rather, that a 24th Century Marine Corps could provide all the services that today's Marine Corps/Army does.

An example? =================

On Planet XYZ, a colony has been taken over by a dictator, who has begun a plan of genocide (we'll say its a colony of black/whites and white/blacks). The Federation Council decided to intervene, and a small strike force of Force Recon Marines (two or three hundred) arrives under cover of sensor-cloaking technologies. They quickly overthrow the dictator, taking him into custody, and destroying or routing most of the forces loyal to him.

Danger still exists. There are still vast numbers of XYZ troops willing to enforce the dictator's orders, and the Starfleet Marines are insufficient to stop them at their present numbers. Troop ships carrying the Marines' Regular forces arrives, and unloads several thousand Marines, who quickly begin the following missions:

peacekeeping
show of force
disbanding XYZ troops
establishing free elections
et all
et all

Make sense? Sort of like today, when we send in the Marines first to hit 'em hard, then send in the Army to finish up the job and do primary peacekeeping

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"I just came to watch the perfect Immortal die." - Methos

"I'm not..." - MacLeod

"Not what? Not the perfect Immortal? Or not going to die?" - Methos

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Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :

quote:
I do believe he was wearing captain's bars, therefore that would make him a "full bird" colonel.

Nope, he wears uniform and rankpin of a Vice Admiral.

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"Second star to the right, and then straight on till morning."

Posted by colin (Member # 217) on :

In "Tomorrow is Yesterday", Capt. James Kirk says that UESPA (aka Star Fleet) is a combined service of navy, air force, army, and marine.

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Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

More accurately, he says "We are a combined service" in answer to Capt. Christopher's musings about whether the Enterprise is Navy or Air Force. The Marines are not mentioned in this context, nor does Kirk himself use the words Navy or Air Force.

One also has to remember that Kirk could be oversimplifying or outright lying, since he has much to hide from Christopher. Perhaps he speaks of UESPA just to make the Earthman feel at home, while in fact the ship belongs to Starfleet which is not a human-run show?

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :

quote:
under cover of sensor-cloaking technologies

You naughty boy! Cloaking isn't allowed!

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"Dynamics is like playing hockey with a flexible hockey stick"
-My Physics teacher
---
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Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :

Personally, I'd guess he was bluffing with that. Kirk may not know his history, and thought he could get away with telling the guy that he worked for what Kirk thought just MIGHT have been a current space agency, instead of having to say he was from the future.

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

Prakesh, I won't tell if you won't =)

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Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

Actually, perhaps Starfleet does cover all the various military aspects of the Federation. I mean, we're unsually only ever shown the navy, but why would they refer to that as "Starfleet" and the marines-like bit as "Starfleet marines" and not the ships as part of the "Starfleet navy"?

I think, at least when talking about the military part of it, actual UFP people would use the term "Starfleet" the way we use "military", covering everything. If they needed to be more specific, they would use the terms "marines", "navy", &c. The reason we don't see the other branches is that only the navy is responsible for the exploration part of SF. Whatever other "marines", "army", &c. Starfleet has, they're strictly military in function.

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Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

Good answer!

You also have to understand: contrary to popular belief, there are only three branches of the US Military:

The Army
The Air Force
The Navy

Sorry folks, the Coast Guard is DOT -- Department of Transportation.

And the U.S. Marine Corps is part of the Navy. Of course, we don't say "send in the Navy!", but that's what we mean. We specify the Marines ... as someone in the 24th century might say "Starfleet Marines" to distinguish from "Merchant Marines" or along those lines.

So I can definitly see the Fed Council using "Starfleet" as a broad term, then specifying Marines ... or would the Admirality do that when planning the specifics of a mission? Argh. Okay, I'm going to go watch the "Highlander: Director's Cut" laserdisc I bought off eBay for $10 ...

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[This message has been edited by JeffKardde (edited October 23, 2000).]

Posted by Toadkiller (Member # 425) on :

Perhaps we have the dept of Starfleet, with ships and 'response forces' aka Marines, evidence already listed supports this.

But, wouldn't each planet, or at least those in border areas also need an army? It wouldn't have to be a "federal" army, but I'd expect the UFP would want some level of control. You'd at least want enough trained troops to repel the Cardies or whomever from dropping a couple thousand troops in and ruining your whole day.

These local 'guard' units wouldn't even need to be equiped to leave the planet they are stationed on....

[This message has been edited by Toadkiller (edited October 23, 2000).]

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

Oh, it seems rather likely. On the other hand, such forces wouldn't really be Starfleet, then.

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Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :

Maybe the name Starfleet is just a name that is a control sort of thing - directing the different facets of the Federation that generally include frontier and domestic movements!?! How general was that

Andrew

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Posted by Teelie (Member # 280) on :

I think they'd have all of todays forces, branches, departments, etc in the future plus some under different names and/or forms.
Take Section 31 aka CIA/NSA/Black Ops for instance. Instead of them being officially recognized, they're a hidden part of SF few know of.

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Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

I think a local "militia" would be more in line for that line of thinking.

How about this theory?

The Federation calls for "mutual protection" among its members. This is done by each Member World providing for: "large support" (aka, Starfleet), and "local support" (aka themselves).

Each member worlds pays the Federation Council X# of credits per year. These credits are used for Federation wide social programs, et al, as well as Starfleet (A Federation Member tax, shall we say).

Each member world is allowed to support its own military, with a few restrictions: one, any independent military is not such -- they ultimitly fall under the command of a Starfleet "Joint Services" commander in times of crisis; two, they are limited in size based on the Member Worlds' colonial holdings and population; three, they are limited in what area they can patrol in (i.e.: if an Andorian cruiser wandered into Bolian space, there'd be a problem).

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Posted by Obi Juan (Member # 90) on :

Back to the Colenal...
Many, including most of those who have posted in this topic, feel that Col. West is the strongest proof of a Federation Marines (army or some type of ground force with a different ranking structure than the naval Starfleet) in the Star Trek canon. But is he canon? I mean we argue about the canonicity of stuff that to me is obviously not canon (does not appear on screen an in many cases is created by people whose only link to Trek is that they paid a sufficient amount to gain the license to create and distribute certain Trek products), but this is a case of a true grey area. There are two different versions of the events that happened during the Kitomer talks. Remember the theatrical release had the West parts cut and a Kilingon actually did try to kill the Fed. President Because of video, more people on this board are accustomed to the West version, but there is a valid argument that the theatrical cut is true canon.

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

I would venture that if TPTB didn't want West to be cannon ...

They wouldn't have put the scenes in the video release.

When the new TMP release comes out with Nogura in it, will that be cannon? Or will it be non-cannon because it wasn't shown in the original cut?

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Posted by Soontir_Fel on :

I say the scene with Admirals Nogura and Kirk in TMP should be canon. After all, the scene was filmed.

'Colonel' West could be been a member for Section 31. For all we know, he was a Starfleet officer who worked with S31 (like Bashir) and was picked by S31 to present the rescue plans to the President. It's still just a theory. But you never know...

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Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

I agree, that if a scene is cut and not inserted in a version of the film, it is un-cannon, but once it is released in a recut version of the film, it becomes canon.

I like the idea of West being 31. Cartwright too, perhaps?

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Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

I don't. Oh, it's possible, sure, as we know, or at least think we know, that Section 31 existed then. But to force them into previous stories like this makes a mess of whatever motivations the characters in the story were supposed to have. In other words, it doesn't add anything to the film to have someone like Cartwright working for S31. But it does detract from Cartwright's character and his role in the film. By making him just a member in an already shadowy organization, we absolve him of his responsibilty, and we render the movie's end hollow.

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Posted by Soontir_Fel on :

What I meant to say is that Colonel West unknowingly presented a plan possibly created by S31. One of his fellow officers could have worked for them and recomended West for the job. S31 could have been impressed or had their eye on him for some job he did. They agreed and used West, unaware that West was part of the Anti-Peace Conspiracy, to present the plan.

I'm guessing if this works, this would have been S31's only appearence in ST6. As before, you never know...

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Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

If we can arrange to have Section 31 not actually be necessary to the story, why do we have to include them at all?

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Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

Here's an idea:

What if Section 31 was working to PREVENT the assassinations from being carried out?

I mean, the disease they inflicted the Founders with was during the war ... I'd think the chance of peace with the Klingon Empire (not war!) would motivate them to do what possible to get that iniative through.

Just a thought.

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Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

Indeed. The Section must have some sort of confidence in its predictive abilities, as was indicated by the actions against Romulans in "Inter Arma..." when the Dominion war wasn't showing signs of ending yet and the Romulans were still allies. Perhaps S31 masterminded the whole sequence of events, first blowing up Praxis (or conning the Romulans into doing that), then supporting both the assassination and Kirk's daring exposure of the conspiracy, all the time knowing that this would lead into the Klingons becoming allies.

The more realistic way to interpret things is, of course, that S31 does things to see what happens, and then says "of course, we knew this would happen, and wanted it in the first place"... Perhaps S31 blew up Praxis first (a safe move that would not directly endanger the Federation) and waited what the Klingons and the Fed warhawks would do. When the hawks played themselves into a corner with the assassination, S31 took advantage of that and arranged for Kirk to expose the whole conspiracy, thus gaining the trust of the Klingons. Had the hawks won, or had Gorkon survived and made peace with the Feds, S31 would have come up with a way to make the best possible use of that.

I cannot believe S31 would have maneuvered the Federation into a war deliberately. No matter how Col. West wanted to "clean the chronometers" of the Klingons, S31 must have known that a war with the still rather powerful Klingons would be very destructive to the UFP. Anything that weakens the UFP must be an antithesis of what S31 wants.

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by Soontir_Fel on :

Jeez, I'm starting to think that bringing up Section 31 possibilities with Colonel West was a bad idea. S31 obviously was around during this time, it was in the Federation Charter/Constitution. I'm just throwing in this S31-West possibility to give S31 some work during ST6. I didn't think it would be taken so seriously. I'll have to keep some of my wild theories to myself then.

Your post, Timo, sounds like the best that S31 offers. Manipulating people and changing the balance of power in the A&B Quadrants sounds like them. I like the part of S31 changing their attitude when events change.

'Yes, that *was* supposed to happen.'
'Praxis *cough* our fault. (replace *cough* with was or wasn't)'
'Everything is going according to plan.'

This makes for an interesting intelligence? division.

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-Lord Darth Vader (Star Wars: A New Hope)

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

I really, really, really hate pointless retcons.

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Read chapter one of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! And party everyday.

Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :

You know, you guys may have stumbled upon the ONE way an S31 series might be interesting. What if we got to go back to some of the major events in Trek history, in different time periods, and see what S31 had to do with them? You KNOW they had to be involved in ST6 somehow, since an entity dedicated to protecting the Federation at all costs would certainly not just sit that out.

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

Or Praxis just blew up and S31 took advantage of that random action.

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Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :

What a sticky web of intrigue!

Maybe Admiral Cartwright is really Joseph Sisko... he just had his mind wiped and sent into the future with the persona, so the whole events surrounding his meeting with Sarah the Wormhole Alien etc. took place!

LOL!

Maybe Section 31 is a Wormhole Alien organisation! Maybe the Bajorans are the REAL founders of the Federation!

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But all that came back was the tide..." 'I Will Not Forget You' Sarah McLachlan

Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :

Or maybe the Federation was created by the Prophets for the express purpose of engineering Sisko's birth.

Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :

Or maybe the entire Star Trek universe was created by a guy named Rodenberry... errrr

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"Dynamics is like playing hockey with a flexible hockey stick"
-My Physics teacher
---
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Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :

Gene Roddenberry was a wormhole alien!?!

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Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

Damn. What a masterful way of arcing the stories! What about Gene Coon?

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Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :

OK, now it's freakin' me out

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"Dynamics is like playing hockey with a flexible hockey stick"
-My Physics teacher
---
Titan Fleet Yards - Harry Doddema's Star Trek Site

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

I recall hearing something about a mention of Roddenberry during "Far Beyond The Stars" that would have essentially been exactly that. I don't recall why it was discarded, though I think it was because the plot became too "meta" with its inclusion.

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love's function is to fabricate unknownnness
--
E. E. Cummings
****
Read chapter one of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! And party everyday.

Posted by Gaseous Anomaly (Member # 114) on :

What about the idea that was bandied about of having the closing shot of the series (i.e. the last we see in 'What You Leave Behind') depicting an elderly Benny Russell looking around the Paramount lot as the televised version of his "Deep Space Nine" was getting underway?

That would have you looking into your glasses and cups, wouldn't it!?

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Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

That would have been ... well, wow!

What was Section 31 doing during TNG's "Conspiracy" ep in the first season?

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Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :

Good question. I suppose it's possible that they really had no knowledge of the conspiracy, otherwise those admirals themselves would have had the accidents, instead of the uninfected captains...