Was Will Decker supposed to have been the new Enterprise commander for Phase II? And if so, *did* he actually command that fifth five year mission?
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"You know, putting up a tent is like making love to a beautiful woman. You undo the zip, pop in your pole and slip into the old bag."
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Titan Fleet Yards - Harry Doddema's Star Trek Site
Launched (April) & Trial Runs 2245 First 5 year mission (April) 2246-2250 Second 5 year mission (Pike) 2251-2256 Year refit work (Pike) 2256 Third 5 year mission (Pike) 2257-2261 Unknown (Kirk) 2262-2264 Fourth 5 year mission (Kirk) Unknown (Kirk) 2270 Refit (Decker) 2271 TMP (Decker/Kirk) 2272 Becomes training vessel (Spock) 2278 Unknown (Spock) 2278-2284 STII (Spock/Kirk) 2285 Destroyed 2285
The U.S.S. Enterprise NCC-1701
1 WNM 2265
Refit 2265
2 TOS Season 1 2266
3 TOS Season 2 2267
4 TOS Season 3 2268
Refit 2268
5 TAS Season 1 & 2 2269
Fifth 5 year mission (Decker?) 2272-2277
[This message has been edited by Prakesh (edited May 24, 2001).]
As far as Phase 2 goes...I think Kirk was always slated to command it with a new Vulcan science officer (Skon?). But the first episode was turned into a movie. And Leonard Nimoy decided to do Spock again.
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And quite unacustomed to fear.
But, of all, the most reckless, or so I am told,
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[This message has been edited by Aban Rune (edited May 24, 2001).]
quote:
Well since Decker was lost at the end of TMP (right?) I think it's safe to say that he didn't command a five year mission...
What was I thinking??
Let's just change the subject then:
What was Kirk doing on the 1701 from 2262 to 2265?
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"You know, putting up a tent is like making love to a beautiful woman. You undo the zip, pop in your pole and slip into the old bag."
- Swiss Toni, The Fast Show (British comedy show)
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Titan Fleet Yards - Harry Doddema's Star Trek Site
--Jonah
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"It's obvious I'm dealing with a moron..."
--Col. Edwards, ROBOTECH
After the first five year mission in 2269, Kirk gets promoted to Admiral and transfers to Starfleet Operations, and Decker becomes Enterprise captain. Two and a half years later (after one and a half year of refit work and one mystery year), in 2272, TMP takes place. After the V'Ger incident, Kirk does what? He could have gone back to his duties as SF Admiral, leaving someone else as Enterprise captain (Spock? Was he captain already in TMP? And did he finish his Kolinahr first?) . Kirk could've also commanded the post TMP mission himself, as an Admiral, although I find this hard to believe.
Somewhere between TMP and TWOK, Kirk resigns and later becomes an Acadamy instructor (with the rank of Admiral again). During this time, Captain Spock is commanding the 1701.
Is there any evidence as to who commanded the last five year mission of the Enterprise?
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"You know, putting up a tent is like making love to a beautiful woman. You undo the zip, pop in your pole and slip into the old bag."
- Swiss Toni, The Fast Show (British comedy show)
---
Titan Fleet Yards - Harry Doddema's Star Trek Site
Canonically speaking, here I am referring to the episodes and films, there were two captains of the USS Enterprise before 2272-Capt. Pike and Capt. Kirk.
My idea of history-
USS Enterprise is commissioned in 2250, assuming three five year commands under Capt. Pike. She is given a small crew at the beginning of her career-203 crew members. Captain Pike is her first captain and achieves legendary status.
In 2265, Captain Kirk assumed command of the USS Enterprise. Her second captain has more first encounters with any species before or after.
In 2270, at the completion of a mission, the USS Enterprise is refitted.
In 2272, TMP.
In 2286, USS Enterprise is a cadet ship. She is destroyed that same year.
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takeoffs are optional; landings are mandatory
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Bart: No, it hasn't, Dad. That's why we're leaving.
Homer: Oh, yeah. [pokes his head out the window] So long, Stinktown!
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-DT on arguing with Omega, April 30
But the facts are simple:
1. Decker is lost at the end of TMP. End of story.
2. Spock alludes to the fact in TMP that his business on Vulcan in regards to the Kolinahr is complete. So he reinstates himself into Starfleet and remains under Kirk as science officer or XO on the Enterprise for another 5 years at least.
3. Xon was never a canon character so never existed.
4. Any information before the installation of Pike on the Enterprise has to be seen as conjecture...
Because:
Captain April was never a canon character, although I'd very much like the idea that the Enterprise was indeed commissioned in 2244, with April taking command for a period of 10 years. After which Pike takes over in 2254-55 for another ten years (two 5 year missions). Then Kirk becomes captain 10 years after that......
BUT. It was cleary stated in 'The Search For Spock' that the Enterprise was to be retired because it was then 20 years old. This was in 2285, meaning the Enterprise was commissioned in 2265, right at the beginning of Kirk's reign, but this can't be true at all, because of Pike. So maybe this 20 year figure relates to the last refit? But this can't be correct either as the TMP refit took place only 14 years earlier. So what the hell this statment means I can't guess. But I'm nitpicking here, though it still throws the whole thing into a bit of doubt.
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"Synthetic scotch, synthetic Commanders...."
-Scotty
http://www.trekmania.net
[This message has been edited by The Red Admiral (edited May 25, 2001).]
At the extremes of interpretation, on the one hand we can read canon facts as establishing Pike only for the Enterprise's maiden voyage that led to the First Contact with the Talosians, with Kirk taking over after that for the ship's first five-year mission, and thus giving support to Morrow's line... Or on the other, we can take Spock's line that he served under Pike for eleven years to all be on the Enterprise and Gene's comments in the series bible that the Enterprise was at least twenty years old by the time TOS started, but this blows Morrow's line out of space. One's gotta give.
--Jonah
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"It's obvious I'm dealing with a moron..."
--Col. Edwards, ROBOTECH
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"And as it is, it is cheaper than drinking."
-DT on arguing with Omega, April 30
or maybe between Pike's FYM and Kirk's FYM - there was a big arsed upgrade/refit - but not so cosmetic as TMP's...
Andrew
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Homer: I'm gonna miss Springfield. This town's been awfully good to us.
Bart: No, it hasn't, Dad. That's why we're leaving.
Homer: Oh, yeah. [pokes his head out the window] So long, Stinktown!
And BTW, Robert April appeared in an animated episode, which was, at the time, considered just as canon as TOS. Only later did TPTB declare TAS non-canon.
Robert April, as he appeared in "The Counter-Clock Incident (TAS}
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Titan Fleet Yards - Harry Doddema's Star Trek Site
1.In TWOK Bones gives Kirk a bottle of Romulan ale for his birthday that is dated 2283 and says "it takes a while to ferment".
2.In TWOK Kirk, referring to Khan, says that "there's a man out there I haven't seen in 15 years trying to kill me". Since "Space Seed" would have taken place in 2267 TWOK should then be 2282. Funnily enough, TWOK was released in 1982 which is 15 years after Space Seed first aired (1967).
3.The dumb-ass admiral in TSFS declares that the Enterprise is 20 years old at the time. God only knows how we're supposed to interpret that.
So where or how was 2285 for these movies established - it's just been messing with my head.
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"Life's too short to be pissed off all the time." (Danny Vinyard, American History X)
Dax's Ships of Star Trek
1. Having shrinking ships
2. Having people that age backwards.
Welp, we've now got "One Little Ship" [DS9] and "Innocence" [VOY], and we still consider those shows as canon. So I'm all for TAS canoninity...
This is James Dixon's Chronology. Read past his rabid anti-Okuda stance and glean some useful stuff from the notes at the end (after the main body of the Chronology -- i.e., the last dated entry). His dating system makes a lot better sense and better use of available data than the "official" timeline, though...
--Jonah
"In my understanding Kirk remained captain from the end of TMP (2271) to the beginning of TWOK (2284). But there simply is no additional canon information to prove any theory either way."
BZZZT! Generations establishes that Kirk retired from Starfleet at some point shortly before TWoK.
"Any information before the installation of Pike on the Enterprise has to be seen as conjecture... Because: Captain April was never a canon character --"
*grr* Considering how much of TAS HAS been incorporated into "canon", and considering April is in the Encyclopedia...
"-- although I'd very much like the idea that the Enterprise was indeed commissioned in 2244, with April taking command for a period of 10 years. After which Pike takes over in 2254-55 for another ten years (two 5 year missions). Then Kirk becomes captain 10 years after that......"
The bulk of material from 1964 to 1990 places the Enterprise's launch in 2220, and probably recommissioned after April gets promoted in 2245. But either way, the overwhelming mass of Trek history gives us an Enterprise that is NOT a new ship when Kirk gets it.
"BUT. It was cleary stated in 'The Search For Spock' that the Enterprise was to be retired because it was then 20 years old. This was in 2285, meaning the Enterprise was commissioned in 2265, right at the beginning of Kirk's reign, but this can't be true at all, because of Pike. So maybe this 20 year figure relates to the last refit? But this can't be correct either as the TMP refit took place only 14 years earlier. So what the hell this statment means I can't guess. But I'm nitpicking here, though it still throws the whole thing into a bit of doubt."
The properly-researched timeline places TMP in 2267 and TWoK/TSfS in 2287. In this case, Morrow's line would seem to refer to the refit Enterprise's lifespan...
--Jonah
And I have read some of James Dixon's comments on defining a time-line for Star Trek. Though I agree with the author on a few selected points, I feel that he is a man yelling against the rapidly approaching floodwaters. His 'community'-the old Fandom-is being replaced by a younger, less observant generation. This generation works hard with less money and more stress. They want to come home and have an hour of escape with their Star Trek program of choice.
And, furthermore, we are responsible for this change in Star Trek that we have witnessed since Roddenberry's death a decade ago. When each and every one of us buys a Star Trek product that has the seal of approval from Paramount, that purchase says that a fan supports the quality of that merchandise and wants more. That quality is seen to be the standard for all S.T. products-magazines, books, episodes, etc. What is that quality? The materials are manufactured with a lack of originality, a slew of errors, and limited research. I like the pictures that I have seen from these publications. However, I don't like the text. I don't want summaries. I have summaries in the episodes and the films, the Okuda reference materials, and so on. And, furthermore, the price for this material is prohibitively expensive and is very marked up. The studio knows there is an audience who will accept most of anything that is Star Trek for their devotion and faith is that strong. The relationship between the studios and the fans is abusive.
And this is one of the selected items that I agree to when I read James Dixon's critiques of modern Star Trek-the studio doesn't care about quality as long as there are people who are willing to pay $8.00 or more for a glossy picture book or watch a sci-fi show that is lacking in the necessary requirements for a good drama.
[ May 29, 2001: Message edited by: targetemployee ]
[ May 29, 2001: Message edited by: targetemployee ]
--Jonah
Robert April and the 2245 commisioning date may only be semi-canon (ie, all things being equal, we can assume that if a line had ever come up about the first captain of the Enterprise the writers would almost certainly have used his name, but we can't be certain) but it's one of the more sacred cows of semi-canon.
"In my understanding Kirk remained captain from the end of TMP (2271) to the beginning of TWOK (2284). But there simply is no additional canon information to prove any theory either way."
...meaning 'In my understanding...', in that I was unaware of any specific mention of Kirk retiring before TWOK. Call me an ignoramis if you will, and I will happily adjust my beliefs and make a full retraction if you could provided the exact dialog/scene that establishes this.
"Any information before the installation of Pike on the Enterprise has to be seen as conjecture... Because: Captain April was never a canon character --"
"-- *grr* Considering how much of TAS HAS been incorporated into "canon", and considering April is in the Encyclopedia...--"
What the hell are you talking about. Since when was TAS OFFICIALLY REGARDED AS CANON? I think most Trekkers would agree TAS was a cute 70's Trek cartoon, and nothing more. What anybody says about a change to the TAS canon situation is talking rubbish. GENE RODDENBERRY de-canonized it. Who the hell has the right to turn round and challenge him, he who invented Trek and its universe? No-one.
And I can only think, that if he had been buried in a grave he'd been spinning outa control with all this Enterprise nonsense which threatens to throw this carefully crafted universe he created right out of whack. If it goes belly up like I cynically expect it will, I wish he was here to kick Berman and Braga very hard up the butt.
" -- The bulk of material from 1964 to 1990 places the Enterprise's launch in 2220, and probably recommissioned after April gets promoted in 2245. But either way, the overwhelming mass of Trek history gives us an Enterprise that is NOT a new ship when Kirk gets it.--"
Granted, I already knew this, and never at any point suggested the Enterprise was new when Kirk inherited it. But as for it being commissioned in 2220.... What bulk of material suggests this? Please clarify....
" -- The properly-researched timeline places TMP in 2267 and TWoK/TSfS in 2287. In this case, Morrow's line would seem to refer to the refit Enterprise's lifespan...--"
Nothing in the Chronolgy suggests this, and I wouldn't give one second of attention to some self-rightoeous Star Trek fan who thinks he can make up his own canon and spout off with it as if it's official. Again, my arms are in the air. What 'properly researched material' are you referring to? And this was reserched by whom? When? What show/ movie suggests any of this?
Let me make something clear about canon: Star Trek is a television show, with movie spin-offs. What is mentioned and portrayed is canon. What is not, is either made up and/or speculated. This is why I said in my initial post, 'in my mind' 'in my understanding' 'I'd like the idea of'.... etc etc. I do not intend to ever make arbitrary comments that suggest 'I think it happened this way', 'the Enterprise was launched on this date,', or 'the excelsior had this number of torpedo tubes'. All this stuff may be carefully speculated and deduced, but at the end of the day it isn't canon. period.
Again I reiterate, and I quote from my original post..:
"-- although I'd very much like the idea that the Enterprise was indeed commissioned in 2244, with April taking command for a period of 10 years. After which Pike takes over in 2254-55 for another ten years (two 5 year missions). Then Kirk becomes captain 10 years after that......"
There's nothing to suggest this was the way of it, nothing to suggest it wasn't. April I want to believe existed, he is in the Encyclopedia I know - at Roddenberry's request though, but he's never been mentioned or portrayed in any Star Trek installment. (No, TAS doesn't count).
Going by that though, STV never existed (which wouldn't be that bad), and neither would parts of STVI (which would be).
See, in *your* personal canon, "personal canon" does not exist.
just kiddin'
And those comments coincide with Gene's own comments that the story lines were a bit far-fetched even for Trek, but seeing now that we've had 'canon' eps of Trek do those exact ideas, do we decanonise DS9 and Voyager or reinstate TAS?