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Posted by Soontir_Fel on :
 
So...what did everyone think? It wasn't what I thought it would be. I thought the concept of transwarp hubs made sense. I always wondered how tw conduits were maintained.
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I now know why Series V is in the mid 2100s. They de-villianized/crippled the Borg! How could they do this? From death incarnate in 'Q Who' to your run-of-the-muck-villian in 'Engame.' They stink now!

I thought the last line in the series wasn't that good either. The same thing was basically spoken at the end of the FIRST episode.

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"...and the sky's the limit."
- Captain J.L. Picard (All Good Things...)

"The more things change, the more they stay the same.
- Quark (What You Leave Behind)

"Set a course...for home."
- Captain K. Janeway (Endgame)
 


Posted by Dukhat (Member # 341) on :
 
Unfortunately, I missed the first twenty minutes of the episode, but after seeing the rest, I really don't feel like I missed much.

Spoiler
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First, I thought the whole Chakotay/Seven thing was annoying, irritating, and had no purpose whatsoever. Sure, Seven possibly dying in the future was a small tension point, but overall I thought the whole thing was unnecessary and came out of nowhere. Chakotay was acting like a little lovesick dork (no wonder Beltran hates the show!)

The quick ending was unsatisfying as well. So Voyager is heading for Earth in the last scene. So what? No potential problems were addressed, such as what will happen to the Maquis, or what Starfleet will now do with the future technology Voyager incorporates, or how this change in the timeline will now affect the future that we saw. I would have preferred it if that transwarp conduit led them back to the Delta Quadrant, as was stated in a throwaway line.

I also would have liked to see some new ships, not just modifications of the old ones. And the Voyager crew finally wearing the current Starfleet uniforms, instead of those stupid-looking future getups.

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Lisa: "OK, now we're gonna pick jobs out of the chore hat. Dad, you go first."
Homer: "Come on, bikini inspector...scrub toilet! Ohhhwww...OK, that was a practice..."

Shabren's Final Prophecy: Star Trek: Legacy


[This message has been edited by Dukhat (edited May 23, 2001).]
 


Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :
 
Well, I watched "Endgame" tonight, and I feel that it was an appropriate end to Star Trek: Voyager. Overall, I enjoyed the episode immensely, but a few things did leave me a bit unsatisfied. Before I begin, I'd like to tell everyone that I, too, am heading into spoiler territory here.

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I think that two of the best scenes were in the beginning of the episode. The first was the teaser to the episode, Admiral Janeway in her apartment with the news footage of Voyager arriving home ten years earlier. She definitely felt pain and sorrow about something, and I think this helped set the tone of the episode. The other scene which I liked really well was when Janeway was at Chakotay's gravesite. I have been able to see a developing respect and friendship develop between Janeway and Chakotay for the past seven years. I think this scene helped prove that between the seven seasons and the extra 16 years, they did grow fairly close. I really liked this scene and thought it worked well.

I also felt that Janeway's visit to see Tuvok at Starfleet Medical was good. Although, I think it might have helped if it was mentioned that Tuvok was in a medical center and that he was suffering from the end-result of a degenerative Vulcan disease. It might have helped to mention this; it might not have. I'm not sure how it really could have been written in well.

The budding relationship between Chakotay and Seven of Nine I also liked. I think that it could have been built up a little more prior to this episode, though. We knew Seven had some interest in Chakotay thanks to the holodeck program she ran a few episodes earlier. I think showing that Chakotay did have interest in her an episode or two ago would have been good. "Homestead," I think would have been a good episode to slide it in off the top of my head. Chakotay and Seven's scenes together worked pretty well for me. I think the scene in Chakotay's quarters was a bit awkwardly done, but the scene in Astrometrics with Seven tearfully trying to break off with Chakotay worked for me. It reminded me of the scene when Seven was overcome with emotion as she watched her son die in "One."

I liked the confrontation between Captain Janeway and Admiral Janeway. The most important, and my favorite part of the tension, was the scene in the corridor with the two Janeways arguing over the Borg transwarp hub. I think it continued nicely from two seasons ago (I think the episode was "Night") where we first see Janeway question her actions in destroying the Caretaker array. After 33 years, Admiral Janeway is still questioning her actions and throws it in the captain's face. I think at that point the two Janeways found their common ground and started understanding each other.

I liked the scenes between Admiral Janeway and the Borg Queen. The Borg Queen has been a recurring villian for Janeway and her crew to deal with. I think that this was a fitting end to their story. After three years, Janeways pulls off the ultimate victory against her adversary, but she too dies. And she dies before Voyager reachs the Alpha Quadrant, so she doesn't even have the satisfaction of that to die with. They both simply die, together, one hoping that Voyager makes it and the other hoping that Voyager does not.

I liked the ending to "Endgame." I liked Janeway ending the final episode with "Set a course for home." It's the same thing that she said at the end of "Caretaker" except, this time, we zoom out to see Voyager heading to Earth. I think that this was an excellent way to end; I think showing an actual homecoming parade and watching the reunion of families and friends would have been out-of-place.

Of course, there were some things that didn't like about "Endgame." I did not like Voyager depending on the technology of 26-years-later to survive. A loophole was left for this, though: the Borg know of the trans-phasic torpedoes and armor sheilding and managed to at least adapt to the armor. However, it does disappoint me a good deal to see this technology survive. I would have much preferred Voyager surviving thanks to expert piloting and the skills of the engineering staff holding the ship together.

I also did not like the scenes with B'Elanna giving birth to her daughter. During this critical time, B'Elanna should have been in main engineering. I would have written the birth happening earlier so that Tom and she could see their daughter's face and have that baby's face in their minds. This would have been a great way to show their motivation to succeed.

I also did not like watching Kim agree to help Admiral Janeway in her quest to alter the timeline. In this future, I really do not think that Harry would have agreed so quickly and with so little argument. This scene could have used a good dose of refinement.

Finally, I did not the scenes with Voyager in the transwarp conduit being chased by the sphere. I did not like the the brief moment where the audience was led to believe that Voyager would be returning to the Delta Quadrant. The writers should have fine-tuned this segment as well. The SFX group should have showed us Voyager being swallowed by the sphere instead of leaving us guessing what had happened. I feel that this entire sequence was confusing.

Finally, and overall, I liked "Endgame." There was a lot that worked for it and lot that worked against it. I feel that it was a good episode and a fairly good series finale. I know that my opinion is going to differ from a lot of people's by either a bit or by a lot. However, it did exactly what I had hoped that it would do. In my opinion, the most important thing that television should do is entertain the audience, and I believe that it served this purpose well. I enjoyed watching "Endgame."

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God (using a Devil hand puppet): Yaagh! I'm the Devil! I'm evil! I'm spooky! I'm dark! And I'm evil! Gimme an "E!" Gimme a "V!" Gimme a "U!" Gimme an "L!" What's that spell? Evil! Goooo EVIL!
Devil: Hey, yo, that shit ain't funny!
--from Tatsuya Ishida's Sinfest

Founder, president, CEO, CFO, COO, under-secretary general, mascot, and caterer of the APAO

 


Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :
 
quote:
Finally, I did not the scenes with Voyager in the transwarp conduit being chased by the sphere. I did not like the the brief moment where the audience was led to believe that Voyager would be returning to the Delta Quadrant. The writers should have fine-tuned this segment as well. The SFX group should have showed us Voyager being swallowed by the sphere instead of leaving us guessing what had happened.

I think that was the whole point.

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"And as it is, it is cheaper than drinking."
-DT on arguing with Omega, April 30

 


Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :
 
My mind definitely outruns my hands by a few mph. That should say that I did not THINK those scenes worked.

Anyway, I know the whole point was to lead the audience into thinking that the ending was going to be different than it actually was. Heck, there a few seconds at that point I was on the edge of the sofa going "My god, they didn't do it!" Fortunately, that was eased. My point was that I felt it was awkward and clumsy. To maintain that suspense and ease the confusion, they could have showed an extended scene of the sphere closing in (maybe beginning to engulf Voyager) and then show Janeway asking about the nearest conduit outlet. I think that would have worked better.
 


Posted by Treknophyle (Member # 509) on :
 
Siggy:
Thanks. I was worried that I was the only person who liked it.

And yes, there were imperfections.

I happen to like lots of things which are not perfect. Just one more example.
 


Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
 
I also felt that the Chakotay/ Seven romance was a bit hurried. The obvious answer to why it was ther eis because they didn't have anything else to do with the characters. Kathy was the main focus, the Doc had a hand in the future timeline, Kim got a captaincy, Tuvok went nuts, Paris and Torres had their kid... "Hmmm, what to do with Chuckles and Seven...let's hook 'em up!!"

I didn't mind it so much as I felt it should've started earlier in the season...

I also felt the last scene was rushed. The episode was good...Alot of stuff happened, and there was a good story line and it flowed rather well...and then in the last 2 minutes..."Oh, we've been gone for seven years and we're back and it'll be in my report...the end."

I need more in that last bit there...
 


Posted by Alshrim Dax (Member # 258) on :
 
I was disappointed. On the whole, I liked Voyager as a Series. It lacked the greatness of TNG and DS9 - but still... I enjoyed, and looked forward to, the weekly eps.

The problems I had with all of this was: IT ALL HAPPENED AT ONCE!! No build up over the last few eps.. Just BOOM, done. It seemed WAY TOO rushed.

The romance between Chakotay and Seven should have been built up. You feel that in one day they fell in love and now wanna spend their lives together (Gimme a break).

The premise of the show was great! The writing was so-so .. I just think they should have done a lot more with it.

Like... a better epilogue .. where they do get home .. and Admiral Paris sees his son for the first time in years and for the first time ... with pride! He get's to meet his grand-daughter .. (Heart lifting stuff..)

Would have like to have known what became of the Maquis - not that much would have happened all things considered.. but still!!

The flashing back and forth became annoying.

What of the Borg from Unimatrix Zero?

To many Arcs left untouched. *Sigh*

On to the next series, I suppose.
 


Posted by Dukhat (Member # 341) on :
 
Ok, I saw the episode again on Sunday, and I have to admit the second viewing was a little better than the first (since I originally missed the first twenty minutes). I still hit the mute button or went to get a drink whenever the scenes with Seven and Chakotay came up, but overall the rest of the show wasn't as bad as I first made it out to be.

Still have questions, though ($$$spoiler warnings ahead$$$):

1. What effect did Unimatrix Zero have on the Collective, or had the writers just forgotten about it? It didn't seem to have any effect, considering it was only just the cliffhanger from last season!

2. Why wasn't there a resolution to the whole "mysterious tractor beam which stole the engine from the Caretaker's array"? I always thought it was Romulans who had been voluntarily brought to the Delta Quadrant with inside info from Telek R'Mor!

3. Sure, the whole Maquis issue is moot, but shouldn't there still be at least a hearing? They were terrorists, for crying out loud.

4. If those handy-dandy transwarp conduits can reach Earth in a matter of seconds, why haven't the Borg invaded more than twice? Come to think of it, why haven't they assimilated the entire galaxy already? I think TPTB gave them way too much power than was realistic.

5. So...are the Borg dead? (I guess with the next series being a prequel, we'll never know)
 


Posted by Baron Soontir Fel (Member # 392) on :
 
I agree, I thought 'Endgame' ended abruptly. It felt like an hour-and-a-half series finale to me, not a two hour one.
 
Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :
 
Trekky: You're welcome!

I've watched "Endgame" a couple more times, and it keeps growing on me. I like the ending the way it is, but, yeah, Janeway's remark about the events being in her report was a bit off. However, I still stand by that the ending was strongest with Voyager sailing to Earth. The last bridge scene and the zoom-out to Voyager sailing to Earth was a homage of "Caretaker."

Yes, there were a few loose ends that did not get tied up at the end. Of course, The Original Series, The Next Generation, and Deep Space Nine all left their share of interesting threads open. It's a bit disappointing, but it gives future writers room to play with (and I'm talking about the possibility of references in future movies, series, and novels).

Now I'll give my spin to Dukhat's questions (please keep in mind these are only my opinions)...

1. I don't think that the events of Unimatrix 0 were forgotten. I'd bet that the Borg were still dealing with the consequences of that since the Borg presence at that hub and vicinity was pretty minimal. Plus, there were only supposed to be, what, one or two Uni 0 drones per ship? That's not a whole of people to be that big of a draining effect on the Collective.

2. I have no idea what to make of this. This is one of the matters that I would have liked to seen resolved, but, alas, it wasn't. Oh well.

3. There probably will be a string of hearings and investigations into everything that happened while Voyager was in the Delta Quadrant. How will it turn out? Well, we don't know for sure, but it seemed like all was well with Voyager's return at the beginning of "Endgame." Torres became the Federation Liason to the Klingon Empire, and I doubt it's a post that she have gotten in that time period if she had been punished for her crimes as a Maquis. Of course, we don't know what happened to Chakotay or Chell or the others (never mentioned in the episode). We also never got any indication that Starfleet was planning a sweeping punishment of members of the former-Maquis. Admiral Paris surely would have mentioned that in one of the communiques.

4. I mentioned elsewhere that I think that this transwarp hub was brand-spanking new. First, the conduits leading every which way to the Alpha Quadrant. If it had just opened (coupled with the war with Species 8472 and some effects of Unimatrix 0), the Borg may not have had time to mount a new invasion of the Federation. Plus, the Borg Queen was at that hub. Perhaps she was moving construction along?

5. I've also written about this in another thread, but (short version) I don't think the Borg are dead. They've had another really serious set back, but I'd be willing to bet they are still out there.
 


Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
 
The Borg are extremely adaptable and the Queen appears to never really die. I agree, they're still out there. They've taken a blow...but they're still there.
 
Posted by Alshrim Dax (Member # 258) on :
 
Dukhat: You pretty well echoed my concerns as well..

Siegfried: I think there were a few ships full of UNI 0 drones that left for fluidic space - or the edge of!

And I believe that the ending of TNG was left wide-open for the movies that were to follow - DS9 .. well.. I'd like to see a movie come out about that ... That's a whole other thread discussion tho'!

I concer about the Borg NOT being dead. This is the second Borg Queen to bite the bullet - there will be another! And this time - they will be more powerful than ever .. cuz now they will assimilate the information gathered about the enhancements Voyager had..

We must also remember..that those enhancements were recognized, 16 years before they ever SHOULD HAVE BEEN. This means that the Borg .. 16 years after "Endgame" can be twice as dangerous thanks to Adm. Janeway's meddling!

Borg can assimilate the data faster than the Federation can research what was done to Voyager and implement the changes throughout the fleet.

There are a handful of Borg ships that were not infected... I think the "Borg issue" is still wide-open, if writers for movies and such wish to persue that avenue!
 


Posted by Dukhat (Member # 341) on :
 
quote:
I mentioned elsewhere that I think that this transwarp hub was brand-spanking new.

But Seven already knew about it, and she'd been on Voyager for 3+ years. So they at least had to have constructed it before she was removed from the collective. Three years is puh-lenty of time to conduct an invasion.

Some more ponderings:

1. I noticed that the Negh'vars had those "feet" on the ventral side of the ships. I thought only the mirror universe Negh'var had those. I also noticed that they had the forward gun/antenna thingy that they originally had in All Goog Things.

2. Admiral Janeway seems to have some sort of shirt tuck-in problem. When she beams down to the Klingon planet, her shirt is tucked out of her pants (I actually prefer the future uniform this way). But in all the other scenes, her shirt is tucked in.

3. I understand that the former Maquis crewmembers would most likely have been pardoned, even though I think they still should have had a trial. My beef was that they just never showed any of it.

4. If the 29th century "Time Starfleet" had already documented several temporal incursions relating to Janeway, why didn't they pop up in the finale, hmmm?
 


Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :
 
How did Seven of Nine know about that transwarp hub if it was new? Probably the same way I found out that a new high school was being built in my home district.

The Borg Queen probably runs a newsletter for all the Borg drones. The Assimilator Gazette or Borg Chronicle or Collective Post or something like that. She could have mentioned in edition 472645625147 (the issue just prior to Seven of Nine's deassimilation) that she had plans for a new and big transwarp hub in that area of the galaxy. Seven of Nine read it and was captured by Voyager shortly afterwards.

It could have conceivably taken three years to build it (maybe more judging by all the conduits and complexity).

And why didn't Braxton interfere in this latest temporal incident? Easy, after all the previous ones, Starfleet Temporal Command got ticked off and sent Braxton to an insane asylum. At the same time, temporal operations were suspended pending a full review by the Federation Council's Committee on Temporal Oversight. After that, it was decided that Voyager posed too much of a risk to driving the captains of its temporal ship fleet to madness. Therefore, Starfleet Temporal Order 47 states that "All temporal commanding officers are to refrain from any and all contact with the USS Voyager. Should you accidently encounter that vessel, send a message to yourself just before you intercepted Voyager warning you not to do that. Immediately initiate the self-destruct sequence."

In other words, I don't know why Braxton and company didn't come and get them. Maybe it wasn't a big enough mess or a mess caused by Braxton.
 


Posted by TheF0rce (Member # 533) on :
 
I always thought the temporal time directive that Braxton upheld was enforced when a violation in time occured after the directive was made.....therefor for other time altering incidences that occured earlier-like "first contact" and so on---braxton and the others don't show up.

but when the temporal directive was made and enforced---?
I don't know--sometime in the 29th century...

but then what time frame was it that the future janeway came from in "Enf=dgame" ?
 


Posted by Commander Paris (Member # 119) on :
 
When "Endgame" was first aired, I had to tape it. I was able to see the grave scene, and I think it's one of Voyager's best scenes. I've seen the whole episode now, and the only thing I didn't like was the C/7 romance. At least Seven got her implant fixed so too many emotions wouldn't kill her.

I think that the episode could have been a half hour longer. We could have seen Voyager's triumphant landing in San Fransisco as it happened, instead of on a video recording. The landing at the beginning of the episode was great, another of Voyager's best scenes. In the extra half hour we could have also seen a few quick reunions and congratulations. One thing I really wished that had done (if they had the time) was the crew (or at least the senior staff), Admiral Paris, and Barclay gathering on the bridge, or some Starfleet building for a celebration. Just like the last two finales, the camera could pull out the window. It would pass over the landed Voyager, over the bridge, up higher and higher into space.

Most of that's just wishful thinking, but I'm still happy with the episode. It makes me want more of the 24th century, but I guess I have to settle for what Enterprise brings.

 


Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
 
If the Borg having a transwarp conduit in Federation space is a problem, the blame rests squarely at TNG's feet, not Voyager's.
 
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
 
I disagree Sol. TNG made the Borg scary as hell but not all-powerful. If you ran into them you were in serious trouble, but they didn't have the ability to just show up anywhere at any time...

Voyager went and gave them that ability but made them a whole heck of alot easier to beat.
 


Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
 
Uh...huh? TNG was the show that established that the Borg have transwarp conduits in Federation space.
 
Posted by Jeff Kardde (Member # 411) on :
 
I thought TNG just established that the Borg had ships capable of transwarp travel -- not that they had big bus stations floating around where they could just drop a few ships into at any given time.
 
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
 
TNG showed us the renegade Borg had some sort of transwarp conduits... They seemed very dfferent from the ones Voyager showed us.
 
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
 
While you can assume that the conduit in "Descent" was not the same as the conduit in "Endgame" there is little evidence to support that. We're not given any reason to believe that this small group of rogue drones have invented new technologies. And the conduit effects look different, but so do the Borg.
 
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
 
It's entirely possible that the conduits the renegades used belonged to whatever species they stole the ship from...and if it's their ship (in other words, if they built it) then who's to say they didn't build the conduits specifically to accomplish their little plan?
 
Posted by Dukhat (Member # 341) on :
 
The Borg did build the ship. If you look closely at the model (I believe some good pics of it are at Bernd's), you can see the Borg insignia. The ship also bears a resemblance to the Tactical cube in exteriors if not in shape.
 
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
 
If Lore knew how to build transwarp conduits from scratch, he wouldn't have needed the Borg.

Beyond any similarity to the tactical cube, the ship was an integral part of the Borg's plan in "Scorpion."
 


Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
 
Yes, that ship did show up on a screen, but wasn't supposed to represent some kind of mine or something, in Scorpion?

I don't really want to fight about who and what ruined the Borg. I didn't necessarily like "Descent". But at least it didn't give us so much detail about certain things that it was impossible for the Borg to be believeable.

I just think Voyager filled in too many of the blanks.
 


Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
 
Yes. To the first part anyway. But that doesn't mean it can't be used for other things.
 


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