In this episode, Reed said, IIRC, the mine which destroyed the H.M.S. Clement was a left-over from some world war. He didn't say specifically the Third World War. So, how many world wars did Earth have between 2053, the end of the Third World War, and 2113, when the era of no wars began? (I am dismissing the possibility of a mine from World War I or World War II. These sea mines were cleared out long ago.)
Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
Trek lore has only indicated three world wars. Since he makes no mention of which war, it could be any of the three. Though Trek suggests WW3 was a nuclear war, WW3 as a posibility is slim, so WW1 or WW2 is more likely. It still could be WW3 as a nuclear missile can be launched from a sub so minelaying might still have occured in WW3.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
I'm not at all sure all the sea-borne ordinance from previous wars is gone today.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
There's still some in the Baltic at least. The Gulf of Finland was mined and netted shut in WWII by a German-led effort that involved its allies/occupied territories on both shores, and there were plenty of mines set at depths optimized for disabling Russian submarines. Some of these (as well as some of the nets) still remain submerged, despite efforts through the 1950s and 60s. WWIII could have involved similar barricades, with mines set at various depths using more advanced and more enduring techniques than those of WWII.
And then there's always the chance that a sunken minelayer would release its cargo at some point, letting mines either drift all the way to the surface or to the extent their cables allow.
Perhaps Reed's uncle was on a mine-clearing mission during the accident, even? Not one involving constant sweeping, as the mine would not have come as a surprise then. But one which involved minehunting among other duties in an area that had seen intense fighting/mining during the last war. That would increase the odds of a hit.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by newark (Member # 888) on :
The description of the conditions of the area in which the H.M.S. Clement sank are critical I think to this discussion. She was sinking beneath an ice shelf. I know of two locations where there are ice shelves-the North and South Poles. Did ships lay mines in either WW I or WW II in those regions? If so, would this mine be operational a century after its placement?
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
In our universe, I don't think any minelaying ever took place anywhere near the Antarctic. But there was a minefield in the Straits of Denmark in WWII. The Bismarck had to mind this during her fateful journey. There'd be lots of ice nearby,a and the route would no doubt be frequented by submarines, be they on scientific missions, hauling cargo between North America and northern Asia, or on military patrol.
And of course, the Cold War saw extensive submarine barricades there. In the Trek universe, these might have been erected during what was still considered WWII, even if in the real world they were installed later and never officially included activated mines.
Then again, ice shelves might be more common in the 22nd century than they are today - precipitation increase due to global warming, or temperature drop due to nuclear winter, or something like that. So perhaps the Clement hit a mine from a field sown in the North Sea somewhere? Or a freely drifting mine imprisoned in ice ever since WWI or WWII, and only recently re-released?
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
Even if WWIII was nuclear, there is still the possibility of some conventional warfare occuring before nuclear weapons were deployed or even after; the weapons would have taken out most command facilities and cities but I would imagine that large (and powerful) military forces would survive, particularly at sea. Personally I imagine that WWIII would have started out conventional then gone nuclear, followed by protracted series of skirmishes and battles by the surviving military forces before a period where they have to return home (or to a friendly nation). Then they really just have to survive.
Posted by Kosh (Member # 167) on :
quote: I'm not at all sure all the sea-borne ordinance from previous wars is gone today.
As I understand it, the USA still has a missing Nuke, laying on the ocean floor somewhere off the coast of Japan.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Also, even given a war fought primarily with nukes, a country would still need to have the conventional forces to move in after the nukes have been dropped/launched. I don't know much about the projections based on a US/USSR nuclear war, but I would assume that there would have to be SOME kind of conventional combat as well.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Well, assuming that the U.S. and the Soviet Union actually carried out all their contingency plans, there wouldn't be a need for conventional occupying forces, because everyone on the planet would be dead. But in a more likely, limited nuclear exchange, yeah.
quote: As I understand it, the USA still has a missing Nuke, laying on the ocean floor somewhere off the coast of Japan.
In fact, according to our government, there are 11 lost nuclear warheads.
I think the possibility exists for a future mine war. In DS9, self-replicating mines were possible and were used...
So, imagine a war on Earth where a side has control of the air and space somewhat... the other side would go to the ocean and most likely underwater subs. Thus, the side with air control would develop a large amount of intelligent mines which would patrol the oceans looking for something to kill... could you imagine thousands upon thousands of these bundles of joy?
If such an intelligent mine was still running around, then a ship might have been sent out to hunt it down, finally tracking it in the ice shelf, and perhaps the ship could have been surprised...
Is that idea plausable?
Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
Seems to be, but I would be leary of an overwater sub....
Posted by David Templar (Member # 580) on :
I think the Clement probably struck a modern mine. If she was under an iceshelf, she'd probably had her mine detection/ice avoidence sonar gears on. It'd be really stupid of her to run into an old mooring mine. And if she had, it would have most likely impacted near the forward section of the ship, which would not have flooded engineering like Reed said.
No, she probably hit one of them more modern mine, either a normal bottom-sitting or a CAPTOR type. A normal bottom-sitting mine would explode as soon as it senses that its target's signatures are decreasing, as the target is just moving away from the closes point of approach to the mine, hence damage to the rear of the sub. A CAPTOR would have released a LWT torpedoe which could have impacted anywhere on the sub, most likely the rear, if the sub makes a run for it.
And I hope the escape pods on the Clement were designed to breach iceshelves, they were under one after all.