Now I was reading this just before - and I got the opening music of Season 1 in my head. I've always thought that the opening - especially before we even SEE DS9 is a bit empty.
I believe this paragraph is the opening 'monologue' to Deep Space Nine. It has all the 'bits' that would fit - giving it a distinct description. Saying what it does. Including Star Trek ties...
I remember reading that there was SUPPOSED to originally BE an opening monologue.
NOW... clear your mind and picture the season 1-3 opening. The first cordal note... the "It waits"... second cordal note/runabout flyby... bit more etc. etc. building until Space-The final frontier is spoken and the DS9 them in-ernest starts with the first proper look at the station and the actors names/characters.
It fits perfectly.
The start is just so empty without it - and "The Mission" card's paragraph fits well.
Andrew
Posted by Snay (Member # 411) on :
Except that they went to such great trouble in the premier episode's opening credits to REMOVE the wormhole visual ... why put a voice in saying that there IS a wormhole?
I dunno, but maybe that's why they scratched it. "If it's not in the pilot, why would it be in the second episode?"
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
I agree that an opening monolouge could work over the opening credits. I don't think this is it, though. I remember seeing this, almost verbatim in a TV GUide ad that I had up in my room for a while. I specifically remember the "It waits" part.
I think they could've written something that didn't sound quite so forced. Perhaps whatever voiceover may have existed did include the the phrase "It waits"... but I just can't see the "exploration, intrigue and enterprise" part in there... Maybe that's why it got cut out.
I think the lonely music in the opener establishes that theme very effectively, though. I never thought it needed words.
Posted by SoundEffect (Member # 926) on :
The phrase, "It waits...", was the beginning of each of the 3 or 4 teaser ads in the 2 weeks leading up to the DS9 premiere. The scene I remembered most from those ads, which was never used in the series, was seeing 3 Galor Classes flying in formation toward the station. All we ended up with was Gul Jasad's ships hovering near the station.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Hmmm I have the rental-copy (bought ex-rental) (back before the episodes were released. Anyway - I'm sure I saw three ships??
And that 'it waits...' must have some significance.
Maybe the removing of the wormhole did necessitate the removal of the voice-over and thus they dropped the idea all together.
I also liked the 'emptiness' of the opening - but It DOES seem like it was the perfect place for them to put the voice-over - especially with the big crescendo to the main theme - right after (presumably Sisko) says Space-The Frontier.
I've actually been thinking of doing a web-site for a while about the lead up (actually to Voyager) and all the rumour mongering that went on in the magazines etc. (no internet then - well mass use). The Whole Genevive Bujould thing and I remember looking in my mags a while ago - and the rumours of Riker being Captain of Voyager etc.
I'm sure there would be similar stuff for DS9.
Posted by Toadkiller (Member # 425) on :
Umm - I seem to remember talking about the run up to Voyager on the Internet.
I'm pretty sure there was a guy named Timo there too, and some other folks. Come to think of there was this wonk named Al that was always hanging around claiming he invented it - boy we flamed him....
I think trek was on the Internet just after porn.
Posted by EdipisReks (Member # 510) on :
grazi.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Yeah my friend (well his brother who was a mega computer nerd) had the 'net in 1994 or something - and it was this 'really' cool thing. And I remember going over to their house and they were showing me the net - this was before the Browser - so it was all text based... heh.
Well '94 (pre-production stage = rumours) was pretty early for 'mass consumer' 'I've seen the episode before it was written' type net Trek Fandom.)
Andrew
Posted by The Red Admiral (Member # 602) on :
I've got a ton of mags going way back before DS9, and I remember a lot of the rumour-mongering flying around. It would indeed be interesting to recall them. I must dig around and see if I can unearth them...
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
The interviews I've read about the Genevive Bujould incedent made her sound like a total whack job. She didn't want Janeway to be a fighter at all. When she was being directed to say the line "Fire" when Voyager was engaging the Kazon, she wouldn't say it with any oomf. It was always this mousy little voice. They pulled her aside to talk about what her issue was and, it sounded like she had some kind of a breakdown.
Weird. So they had to reshoot a bunch of scenes with Mulgrew.
As far as DS9... I believe Kira was originally going ot be Ro. I don't know if there was an issue with Michelle Forbes or what, but Ro never made it to DS9. I don't remember many any of the other rumors about it. That was definitely before I first surfed.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Toadkiller: Umm - I seem to remember talking about the run up to Voyager on the Internet.
I think trek was on the Internet just after porn.
Porn? Online? Mabye if i do a search....
Posted by Fleet-Admiral Michael T. Colorge (Member # 144) on :
I think the DS9 Companion stated that Michelle Forbes was offered to transfer her character in DS9, like how Chief O'Brien transferred off the Enterprise-D. But she opted for movie roles instead and Ro came back to TNG at Preemptive Strike. Ironically, the premise of Ro earning Sisko's trust and becoming a valuble aid might have ended up in one of the DS9 Avitar novels.
Posted by SoundEffect (Member # 926) on :
In the 'it waits' series of commercials, the significance was about we, the viewers, not being able to 'wait' to see the show. This is the voiceover from the Quark/O'Brien commercial:
"It Waits...at the farthest reaches of the galaxy...it waits, for an alien fortune-hunter, and a Starfleet Officer to face their greatest challenge. But most of all, it waits for you...Star Trek: Deep Spece Nine...in January...the wait will be over..."
Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on :
I don't think that pragraph would make a good voiceover; if it was intended to be, they were better off without it in the long run, I reckon.
As for La Genevieve, think about it. She thought the character should really agonise about ordering the Array destroyed; as Mulgrew played the role, only once did she ever feel bad about it and that was in "Night" five years later. Bujold's idea might have given us a captain we could actually care about and like, instead of the annoying madwoman we had to put up with for all that time. Rather than being constantly, irritatingly right all the time, and always getting on her moral high horse, a captain who had to face more of the hard choices Ransom did on the Equinox would have made for a better show.
Posted by The Mike from C.A.P.T.A.I.N. (Member # 709) on :
The subplot of Ro having to earn trust has been present in the Avatar novels, even a scene with Picard confronting her about her past. It was a powerful moment, its too bad we'll probably never see it onscreen.
The relationship between Ro and Colonel Kira was real rocky at first.. it was an amusing decision, since one character was supposed to have been the other originally, the writers wrote a few scenes about Ro and Kira being too similar to get along well.
Now, they work well together after the first eight books having gone by.
And there is one major difference between the two.. Kira is ardently faithful to her religion and her people, Ro is a confirmed agnostic. its a good mix.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Red Admiral: I've got a ton of mags going way back before DS9, and I remember a lot of the rumour-mongering flying around. It would indeed be interesting to recall them. I must dig around and see if I can unearth them...
Hey that would be GREAT! Red... tell us what you find... maybe we could do a joint effort thingy!
It's really quite funny reading all those rumours and early ideas and what was to have been - and comparing it to what we know now.
Andrew
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
quote:Originally posted by Vogon Poet:
As for La Genevieve, think about it. She thought the character should really agonise about ordering the Array destroyed; as Mulgrew played the role, only once did she ever feel bad about it and that was in "Night" five years later. Bujold's idea might have given us a captain we could actually care about and like, instead of the annoying madwoman we had to put up with for all that time. Rather than being constantly, irritatingly right all the time, and always getting on her moral high horse, a captain who had to face more of the hard choices Ransom did on the Equinox would have made for a better show.
YES! Exactly - it would have brought depth to the character, and maybe have spurned a whole different series of events - leading to the rest of the cast becoming more three dimensional. I.e. Chakotay might have had somewhere to go - being more the 'mad-woman' you know - more Maquis - fight for the cause - damn the consequences??
Andrew
Posted by Mucus (Member # 24) on :
Before we get too carried away with this, one might also consider that we already have a "Captain" character that does over-react intoversively (sp?) and could be considered a "wimp."
That would be Archer, and if I recall, the feedback to his agonising over the destroyed colony in "Shockwave" was mostly negative. In a way, seeing how this new series unfolds with a weaker captain may not be too bad a comparison to Voyager. It has much of the same behind the scenes people, writers, etc.......and a similarly colourless cast. (Think about characters with "character" re: DS9 and then try the same with Voy)
In any case, I'm getting off topic. A simple Captain change probably wouldn't have been a magic bullet solution to a show hampered not by its lack of skilled actors, but by a lack of writing and a tired concept
Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mucus: and if I recall, the feedback to his agonising over the destroyed colony in "Shockwave" was mostly negative.
I wouldn't be so sure about that
quote: In a way, seeing how this new series unfolds with a weaker captain may not be too bad a comparison to Voyager. It has much of the same behind the scenes people, writers, etc.......and
Um, Enterprise producers and/or writers who were working back then = Berman, Braga, Lauritson, Howard, Yacobian, Farrell, Curry. Only Berman, Lauritson and Curry still fill roughly the same slot. Everyone else was well back in the Voyager chain of command.
Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on :
I'd be more interested in a captain that might feel the occasional doubt over what they were doing out there, who did at least have the courage to wonder if maybe the Vulcans were right after all.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
I think what we saw of Janeway is probably how a Starfleet captain would behave. She made a decision and showing doubt in that decision would only harm her crew and her command. What I would liked to see, is some private conversations... maybe between her and Tuvok, that revealed that kind of doubt.
I agree that the order to fire and that whole decision could've been played with a little more mixed emotion. But, I was referring to the actress' mental state, not the performance. The interview just made Bujold sound like a whacko. Who knows how accurate it was though.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Didn't they release a photo of her as Janeway - does anyone have that around? And no - not the fake one of her head tacked on to Kate Mulgrew's standing infront of the Warp Core.
It'd be funny to get a glossy version and get her to sign it! Might be worth something! Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on :
I once saw some footage shot with Mulgrew (on the Ocampa city set) with a very different hairstyle, not dissimilar to the bob-like one she had in later seasons. . . Apparently they thought her look wasn't right, and changed it (to that accursed long hair/wig thingy) requiring even further reshoots. . . ?
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Yes, I believe that is correct. There are alot of early photos of her with the later season-ish hairstyle. I don't know why in the world they gave her that hideous thing... it looked horrible.
I believe her name also got changed when Mulgrew got signed. It wasn't always Kathryn... but I can't remember what it was before.
Posted by The Red Admiral (Member # 602) on :
quote:Hey that would be GREAT! Red... tell us what you find... maybe we could do a joint effort thingy
Yeh I'd be happy to collaborate, this a fun idea and will prove interesting, as I've already ploughed through a series of Mags from circa late '92, for DS9 (don't have much on it), but I have loads on Voyager including a fascinating cast of characters, pre Janeway, Chakotay et al. I'll post something later, and probably put up a page for it on my site.
Posted by Dukhat (Member # 341) on :
quote:I believe her name also got changed when Mulgrew got signed. It wasn't always Kathryn... but I can't remember what it was before.
It was Nicole, when the character was supposed to be played by Bujold.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
That's it!! Thank you.
Posted by The Red Admiral (Member # 602) on :
And there's more, a lot more.
I've uploaded a page that archives a variety of rumours and early Paramount info releases regarding DS9 and Voyager.
quote: Unnamed Lieutenant J.G. Human: previously disgraced Starfleet officer - most probably Nick Locarno from 'The First Duty', but if female, may be Sito Jaxo (same episode) (er, but she died in that episode...)
No, she didn't. She died in "Lower Decks", which was season 7, and almost certainly some time after this list was made.
Apart from that, very interesting.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
OK Red, thanks for taking my long-mulled-ovver idea and RUNNING with it. Humph!
Collaboration was the idea/suggestion...
Posted by Snay (Member # 411) on :
Actually, Dukhat, I'm pretty sure it was Elizabeth.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Yeah, Snay I remember reading Elizabeth too.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
My goodness. As bad as many of us think Voyager was, from the sound of those rumors... it could have been much, much worse.
It is kind of interesting, though, how some of the early ideas worked their way into the show in various forms.
I'm utterly amazed at all the attempts that appear to have been on the table to tie in the new series with the former ones. The Guardian of Forever tie in, for instance. Even in DS9 it looks like there were supposed to be a blantant amount of TNG tie ins. I think some tie ins are good... but we didn't need smack me over the head stuff to link the series together.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
I really should go through my old articles now... that Red's jumped the gun "Happiness is a waaaarm gun"
There are some really bizarre rumours that were published.
Does anyone remember that Comic that Majel Barret put out a few years ago - it was one of the first of Gene's lost scripts to be used. At a convention here in Brisbane in 1994 she told us all about the idea behind the characters etc. An intruiging character was a young Girl who only lived 6 years or so. It was funny when she came back in 1996 I asked her about that character and mentioned Kes. She looked at me and basically said "I don't know what you are talking about". I don't know how to include (a lengthier) version of this on the page... anyway - I was mightily intruiged. I wonder what went on there? B/P/T took the idea cause it was a Gene idea thus = Star Trek?? Or did Majel sell the idea to the Voyager people? I never got the end product comic - did anyone get it? I think the cover had a rather abstract Enterprise pic or something? I wonder if that character was in it. Did the magazine even eventuate!?! It probably turned into Andromeda!
At the 1996 Con - she was just off stage on her phone to the 'States. When she got off she came on stage and told us they had given the green light for Battleground: Earth - as "Earth:Final Conflict" was originally titled.
Posted by The Red Admiral (Member # 602) on :
Yes, good spot, it was Lower Decks that Sito died, got those two mixed.
AndrewR - don't feel bad man, I did not jump any gun, I agreed to unearth all and any old rumours/information I could find. It was a sizable chunk, and far too long to 'post' here in a forum, so I put on a page, yes it was your idea and I'll credit you with it.
I did this work by spending an evening going through all this material, then writing it up. And if I want to put something like that on my site, I can.
Posted by Obi Juan (Member # 90) on :
quote:Originally posted by Snay: Actually, Dukhat, I'm pretty sure it was Elizabeth.
Nicole. But I do remember reading that they changed the name to Nicole to appease Bujold. I assumed that it was changed from Kathryn, but perhaps Elizabeth was the original name.
Posted by E. Cartman (Member # 256) on :
"The Conspiracy Bugs are likely to make a reappearance in the 6th season."
!!
Oh, what a waste...
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Red Admiral: Yes, good spot, it was Lower Decks that Sito died, got those two mixed.
AndrewR - don't feel bad man, I did not jump any gun, I agreed to unearth all and any old rumours/information I could find. It was a sizable chunk, and far too long to 'post' here in a forum, so I put on a page, yes it was your idea and I'll credit you with it.
I did this work by spending an evening going through all this material, then writing it up. And if I want to put something like that on my site, I can.
Oh RED! Of COURSE!! Your work was GREAT!! I just thought... we could sorta... pool our resources!?! That is all. Thanks for the idea credit - I need SOME ego-stroking after-all!
So - I should go and pull down my magazines etc. There is this one REALLY rediculous magazine for video releases which gets EVERYTHING about the 'new DS9' series WRONG. And I really mean wrong. Posted by The Red Admiral (Member # 602) on :
Yes, we're collaborating - the page I put up contains all the rumours I've found so far (there's more that I've since found), and I'm interested to see what you might come up with. If you want me to include what you find on my page as well, I'd be pleased to.
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
you know - more Maquis - fight for the cause - damn the consequences??![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)