I'd like to start a discussion of areas in the writing of Star Trek where opportunities were missed to tell a really good story, or perhaps to improve on the story that was told originally. This isn't intended as criticsm, just an opportunity for others to sound off about how "they woulda done it."
For me, this biggest missed opportunity was the chance to explain once and for all why TOS and post-TOS Klingons look different. We all know the real reasons, but why couldn't some really clever writer address this point? DS9 made it worse by bringing back three TOS-era Klingons who somehow mutated from one form to the other with no explanation whatsoever. Then the "Trials and Tribbleations" episode happened and all we got was a curt, "It's a long story" reply from Worf.
I always thought that there could be two distinct races of Klingons, one more human in appearance, the other more "feral", larger and more aggressive. Perhaps there was a power struggle sometime after TOS and the more human Klingon species was segregated, outcast, or similarly dishonored. A great TNG or DS9 story could have been crafted dealing with outcast Klingons escaping from confinement on a penal planet and searching for a new world and a chance to regain their honor and place in the galaxy. Perhaps they would be pursued by their captors or have some dispute where the Enterprise would become involved. How would Worf react? For all his honor and humanity, would he have to come to grips with his own deeply ingrained feelings of racial superiority? Perhaps he would be forced to work with the leader of the refugees to fend off a mutual threat and the two would begin to gain respect for each other as Klingons.
I originally came up with this idea during the last season of TNG. It was too late to send a spec script and after the DS9 thing happened, I gave up on it. I wanted to bring Kor or Kang back as they were and through a major conflict/battle have them die with honor, possibly saving Worf in the process. I wanted to create a powerful story that was topical, allowed a really great classic Trek character to fulfill a destiny, and provide a conclusive answer to the "Klingon question."
How about everyone else? Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
How many threads have we had about "missed opportunities" so far since Timelord registered? Just curious.
In regards to the Klingon "problem": I don't care. I really don't. Why did Klingons have smooth heads in TOS? The simplest answer possible: the Klingon Empire altered its warriors who would have contact with the Federation to resemble Federation humans. Why? Who knows. Inferiority complex, a desire for humans to underestimate Klingons, maybe the Chancellor liked smooth heads over bumpy heads.
But do we really need Worf to spell out, "Well, see, Chancellor Brauptak didn't like his bumps, so for forty years, all Klingon children had their bumps surgically removed. When Brauptak was murdered by his son, Humpitak, the practice was put to and end, and Klingons regained their bumps through surgery. My grandfather chose Mold #4, Varient #2, with the 'Dinosaur' pattern."
C'mon. Use your imagination to decide why Klingons in TOS had smooth foreheads and in TNG/DS9 had bumpy foreheads. Ever since bumpy-headed Klingons popped up in TMP people have been wondering about this, and I don't see why we ever need a canonical explanation, or why people view it as a "missed opportunity."
No, the "missed opportunity" was in not securing the budget in TOS to get-up the actors in ridge-forehead makeup as Gene Coon originally wanted.
Posted by Timelord (Member # 717) on :
Well, you might bother reading the content of the post before being so obstreporous.
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
Oh, I did read your post. And it strikes me off the top of my head that most of what you do is talk about so-called "missed opportunities" in Trek. Woohoo.
Posted by Timelord (Member # 717) on :
And the opportunity for intelligent discourse goes out the window....
Just because you disagree with my opinion that Enterprise stinks on ice, you have obviously taken it upon yourself to attack every post I make. How small of you.
Thanks for putting the "lame" in "flame" Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
?
Did you by chance READ my post?
Where do you figure I have "attacked" you?
Oh wait! I mentioned that you post a lot about "missed opportunities" in Trek! OH MY GOD! I'm ATTACKING HIM! OH NO!
Dude, chill out. I posted several paragraphs explaining why I don't believe the smooth head/bumpy head "missed opportunity" is a missed opportunity. If you take that as an attack, please get yourself a thicker skin, because not only will you not last long here, but you probably will have a very stressful "real life" (and I still don't understand why you brought "Enterprise" into this thread, explain please).
quote:And the opportunity for intelligent discourse goes out the window....
No, actually it happened when, instead of responding to my follow-up post about why this wasn't a missed opportunity, you decided that I was attacking you. Whatever dude.
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
Let me post here again, because I re-read your last post again, and it really pisses me off.
Maybe you're used to people accepting you as an authority on "Star Trek", and that has gone to your head. What the fuck ever. If you post on Flare, people are going to disagree with you, and crying "wah, they're attacking me" isn't going to work very well. I don't watch Enterprise this season because of my schedule, so I really don't have an opinion on it. I do have many opinions, and I generally don't keep quiet about them, and if you feel I'm attacking you, why don't you go to the TrekBBS or some other board that doesn't enjoy the same level of discourse we here on Flare do?
If Charles hadn't posted his "I'm dissapointed" thread I would've told you how I feel about you re: your post in much more (shall we say) "colorful" vocabulary, but I won't. Now, you started a topic, I replied on topic, and then you took us off topic. You can get us back ON topic, or this thread will most likely be closed down pretty soon.
Your choice.
**
To follow back up on my original post: I don't feel that this was a missed opportunity. I think it was great that DS9 poked fun at the makeup mishaps and changes between TOS and the movies, and unless you're one of the "TOS always looked like the movies (in reality)" crowd, then you must've had an opinion on why the change occured. It's often said that the less said about something, the better. Very little was said -- and what do we have? Confirmation that TOS actually LOOKED like what we saw, *AND* the opportunity to use our imagination to decide for ourselves what happened to the Klingons. That's great stuff.
Back on the Klingons again, everyone debated what the "disasterous first contact" with the Klingon Empire meant. Everyone assumed some sort of military conflict, but what we found out was that it was a political blunder. The unexpected is again, great. One political blunder eventually gives way to such a destructive relationship -- gives you pause (especially considering our bumbling monkey of a president).
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Malnurtured Snay: Back on the Klingons again, everyone debated what the "disasterous first contact" with the Klingon Empire meant. Everyone assumed some sort of military conflict, but what we found out was that it was a political blunder.
Intresting theory....I wonder if the upcoming Archer in Klingon prison (don't know the spelling) will be another nail in Starfleet/Klingon relations' coffin. Mabye we'll see the formation of the Neutral Zone between Starfleet and the KLingons before Enterprise is over...and without the Romulan war.
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
Don't worry, you spelled both "Klingon" and "prison" correctly.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I was referring to the name of the prison KIrk and McCoy were sent to in STVI (something) Penthe. I know you're missing this season so far, but it's getting really good. Even though the last episode (for example) looked like crap from the preview it truned out really well. I'm hoping that the "prison" episode holds true to this trend.
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
I know you were, I was being "funny." Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: I was referring to the name of the prison KIrk and McCoy were sent to in STVI (something) Penthe.
Rura Pente "The Alien's Graveyard"...a clever swipe from 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea, where it's Rorapandi, "The White Man's Grave"
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
If only we were so lucky. STVI would have been sooo much better if Kirk had just frozen to death... ...and Generations would have been a great movie without him too! Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Malnurtured Snay: I know you were, I was being "funny."
I knew you were being "funny" when refering to my refren...er..ah...fuck it. Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :
Timelord, just cool it please. Take the arguments to private messages, email, smoke signals, or voodoo dolls. Let's just try to have a discussion here.
There are lots of missed opportunities in Star Trek. For instance, there's whether or not Spock really did have a forked penis, if Klingon warriors were circumsized, and whether there was a thriving holodeck porn industry in the 24th Century.
On a more serious note, I think that most Star Trek's missed opportunities came from not giving us more development and more diversity within the alien species. A lot of the characters we see from these other races are usually cookie-cutter versions of others we've seen before. There's the occassion "bad boy" of the species (like Sybok, the Ferengi scientist, the Pagh-Wraithers, etc.), but I always feel there should have been more development than that.
Granted, it's probably likely most attempts to expand on the different races would either make the episodes feel like documentaries or otherwise unwatchable.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
While I try not to think of anyone's penis except my own, we do know that Holo-Porn is a biiig seller: at least at Quarks. Remember "Vulcan Love Slave". ...it just strengthens my case that there must be automated cleaning services in Trek.
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
Maybe they have those cute little automated vacuum cleaners you keep seeing on infomercials.
Set it, and forget it Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
The RonCo Pocket Vacuum?
As long as we never see RonCo Pocket Billiards...
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
As long as we don't see the Ronco Pocket Penis. Posted by Cartmaniac (Member # 256) on :
I, for one, would be delighted to watch documentary episodes that explore the holodeck porn industry... y'know... if only to conduct a rigorous analysis on the shadier aspects of Utopian Society! Fascinating new insights abound!
[ March 01, 2003, 03:24 PM: Message edited by: Cartmaniac ]
Posted by Timelord (Member # 717) on :
Please tell me there wasn't really a debate concerning the shape of the Vulcan organ. Anyway, I wouldn't expect it to be forked so much as rather pointy.
quote:On a more serious note, I think that most Star Trek's missed opportunities came from not giving us more development and more diversity within the alien species.
Interesting point. Certainly more diversity would have been a plus, specifically more non-humanoid alien characters. TOS tried with the rather unconvincing Horta and non-corporeal shimmering light things, but at least they tried. I thought species 8472 was a nice effort and a big leap for Trek. Given the prevalence of CGI these days, I'm surprised we haven't seen more of it.
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
Of course, you have to take into account that 8472 required no creativity on anyone's part. They're the typical come-out-of-a-giant-hole-in-space-with-overwhelming-numbers-and-technology-talk-to-no-one-then-KILL-EVERYONE!!!! alien. Been there, done that, several times, never interesting.
Posted by Timelord (Member # 717) on :
Well, yes, 8472 came off a bit like "Alien", but it was nice that they tried to do something other than the usual people in make up.
Posted by Cartmaniac (Member # 256) on :
Uh, while Alien was hardly the epitome of creativity, xenomorphs don't fall into Omega's SUPAR KILLAH!! category.
Still, Species 8472 had the dubious but grand honour of being the first (and last, save for the nameless Silent Enemy fishbowls) true aliens to appear in, erh, person. More non-humanoids = Good Thing, because the existence of gazillions of funky forehead races simply becomes less believable with every new incarnation.
[ March 02, 2003, 01:09 PM: Message edited by: Cartmaniac ]
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
I have to disagree with that assessment. By now it is simply an agreed upon dramatic convention
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
8472 started out with real possibilities....but the simulated Starfleet Academy really really blew that. In their first episode Kes describes them as purely hostile, but later they are misunderstood Ray Walston good guys! Ug. I wanted to see more allout from the brief alliance between Voyager and the Borg. Hell...if Seven had turned out to be a traitor then they'd really have an ongoing baddie!
Posted by Darkwing (Member # 834) on :
quote:Originally posted by Malnurtured Snay: No, the "missed opportunity" was in not securing the budget in TOS to get-up the actors in ridge-forehead makeup as Gene Coon originally wanted.
Actually, when John Colicos showed up to play Kor, no-one had any idea what makeup to use, so he suggested the Mongol look, and that's how Klingons came to look that way. Colicos mentioned this in an interview. The bumpy head thing (and later brow ridges for Romulans) came about because of new, higher budgets, and a desire to make a mark on the franchise. No legitimate reason or need existed.
Posted by Darkwing (Member # 834) on :
quote:Originally posted by Siegfried: On a more serious note, I think that most Star Trek's missed opportunities came from not giving us more development and more diversity within the alien species. A lot of the characters we see from these other races are usually cookie-cutter versions of others we've seen before. There's the occassion "bad boy" of the species (like Sybok, the Ferengi scientist, the Pagh-Wraithers, etc.), but I always feel there should have been more development than that.
Granted, it's probably likely most attempts to expand on the different races would either make the episodes feel like documentaries or otherwise unwatchable.
Other missed opportunities come from discarding characters: Saavik, David Marcus, Ilia, Decker, Xon. Changing Saavik to Valeris for ST:VI. We'd have cared more and had more character conflict if it had been Saavik, and it'd have surprised us more. A Saavik-clone from out of nowhere? Please, she had "throwaway character" written all over her.
In close to 40 years, Trek has let a lot of loose threads drop. The Conspiracy parasites, the change in Klingon culture 9not the bumpy head thing, but the shift from 1984/USSR/Mongol Empire to Vikings with pretensions of honor stuff. The Maquis melding with Voyager's crew. Brad Dourif's character, the serial killer on VGR. Just a few, but there are many, many more, if one cares to look.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by Darkwing: Other missed opportunities come from discarding characters: Saavik, David Marcus, Ilia, Decker, Xon. Changing Saavik to Valeris for ST:VI. We'd have cared more and had more character conflict if it had been Saavik, and it'd have surprised us more. A Saavik-clone from out of nowhere? Please, she had "throwaway character" written all over her.
Unlike Xon?
David had to die, I think, to make ST III structurally sound. Spock died in ST II, but Kirk gained a son. Kirk could only get Spock back at the expense of his ship and son.
And did Ilia even have a character? Wasn't she just "attractive bald woman"?
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
She probably would have turned into a Troi in what was supposed to be Star Trek II. Just like Riker is very similar to Decker.
Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
quote:Originally posted by Harry: She probably would have turned into a Troi in what was supposed to be Star Trek II. Just like Riker is very similar to Decker.
The show bible for Phase II makes it very clear Ilia was intended to be the Troi type character of that show.
Posted by Darkwing (Member # 834) on :
quote:Originally posted by PsyLiam: Unlike Xon?
Xon wasn't supposed to be a throwaway character, until Nimoy decided to come back as Spock after all. Even then, it could have been interesting to see what was made of him interacting with Spock and Kirk.
quote:Originally posted by PsyLiam: David had to die, I think, to make ST III structurally sound. Spock died in ST II, but Kirk gained a son. Kirk could only get Spock back at the expense of his ship and son.
Not disputing that, just saying that he was also a missed opportunity. More could have been made of his relationship, especially if he'd gone with Kirk, instead of Saavik. He could still have been killed by Kruge, although the logistics would have differed somewhat.
quote:Originally posted by PsyLiam: And did Ilia even have a character? Wasn't she just "attractive bald woman"?
Well, Decker's mother decided to become a New Human (one of those cults where everyone became part of a collective conciousness, like organic Borg, and he had acquired a bit of a taste for that himslef. Ilia's empathic abilities would normally overwhelm any human sexual partner, but the novel seemed to indicate some possibility of his childhood experience giving him a chance to survive that. If he and Ilia had not been sacrificed to V'ger, the character interaction and story possibilities might have been interesting to see.
Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on :
quote:Originally posted by Darkwing: Well, Decker's mother decided to become a New Human (one of those cults where everyone became part of a collective conciousness, like organic Borg, and he had acquired a bit of a taste for that himslef.
What what what what what what what what what?!
Posted by Darkwing (Member # 834) on :
quote:Originally posted by Vogon Poet: What what what what what what what what what?!
Read the TMP novelisation. For more about New Humans, read Triangle, by Marshak and Culbreath. After that, nothing. They make another missed opportunity - what would happen if the Borg assimilated a New Human?
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
I bet the universe would implode.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
lousy universe! (shakes fist)
Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on :
I do have the TMP novelisation somewhere. . .
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
The entire Trek series from point A to point E is jam packed full of missed opportunities. We could sit here and talk about them until we are blue in the face (or other in places for that matter) but what would that really accomplish? Whats done is done.
The only truely do-able resurrection of 'missed opportunities' in the Star Trek universe that can and should be resolved is to let Shatner redo Star Trek V the way it ought to be done while he has the ambition to do it, long before he is dead and gone, along with his ideas.
The second thing is to fix the SFX in STV as well as reshoot and/or insert effects into TOS that could never be done back then. From there, create a TOS box set of DVDs at a more practical price with new effects than what is currently available (Currently: all 3 TOS seasons = $600 US = 6 TNG seasons = utter bullshit). It wont effect the stories any, and whatever else anyone wishes to whine about, but it sure the hell would give it some visual appeal, much like your mama does.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Wow, that was a list of remarkably boneheaded ideas.
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
Along with an unwarranted attack on our collective mothers. Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
I thought it was a compliment. Unless he has some sort of hatred towards attractive mothers.
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
Hey, I like the pretty ladies.
Posted by Darkwing (Member # 834) on :
quote:Originally posted by Futurama Guy: The entire Trek series from point A to point E is jam packed full of missed opportunities. We could sit here and talk about them until we are blue in the face (or other in places for that matter) but what would that really accomplish? Whats done is done.
The only truely do-able resurrection of 'missed opportunities' in the Star Trek universe that can and should be resolved is to let Shatner redo Star Trek V the way it ought to be done while he has the ambition to do it, long before he is dead and gone, along with his ideas.
The second thing is to fix the SFX in STV as well as reshoot and/or insert effects into TOS that could never be done back then. From there, create a TOS box set of DVDs at a more practical price with new effects than what is currently available (Currently: all 3 TOS seasons = $600 US = 6 TNG seasons = utter bullshit). It wont effect the stories any, and whatever else anyone wishes to whine about, but it sure the hell would give it some visual appeal, much like your mama does.
Practically, these missed opportunities won't be addressed by Paramount, so nothing will be done officially. Unofficially, though, threads like this may spark story ideas - whether for fan-fiction, or for some bright young writer to submit to Pocket books, in the hope of getting published.
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
A perfect example being the Conspiracy aliens. They're in the DS9 relaunch series.
Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
quote:Originally posted by Topher: A perfect example being the Conspiracy aliens. They're in the DS9 relaunch series.
Actually, I wrote a script with the Conspiracy aliens and pitched it to my agent back when I pitched a few scripts to TNG. That's when she told me there was less liklihood of selling a script that re-used major elements from other episodes, because the show would have to pay the other writer.
My script was called "The Unseen", and the story concerned a Starfleet ship with a vulcan crew that had gone missing, and the Enterprise discovering it and eventually realizing the entire crew is controlled by yon Conspiracy creatures. The crux of the story was if they Enterprise crew should risk the lives of the vulcans in order to hopefully find out what these creatures were up to, or to maybe figure out where they had come from.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Good premise. If you used some other aliens it would make for a decent Enterprise plot. Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: Good premise. If you used some other aliens it would make for a decent Enterprise plot.
Thanks. But can one say "decent" and "Enterprise plot" in the same sentence?
Posted by Middy Seafort (Member # 951) on :
quote:Originally posted by MrNeutron:
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: Good premise. If you used some other aliens it would make for a decent Enterprise plot.
Thanks. But can one say "decent" and "Enterprise plot" in the same sentence?
I'm sure you can, but I think it breaks one of the laws of physics.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
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