I've kept track of the Borg numerical designations for various species myself for several years now, but in my personal database I simply included an annotation on the species' alphabetical listing.
Bernd's new list instead puts them in numerical order, which is perfectly logical since his list is focusing on the numbers rather than the names.
And then it struck me -- since the Borg are assigning numbers sequentially, and therefore chronologically, it might be possible to read something into the Borg's history.
First example: Species 3259, Vulcans; Species 5618, Humans
The first theory this debunks is the previous belief that the Enterprise-D was the first time the Borg had ever encountered someone from the Federation. If they'd first "met" both Vulcans and Humans at the same time when they took that core sample of the Enterprise, then the two species should have had numbers that were much closer together.
Supposedly, the Hansens were the first people from the Federation to encounter the Borg. But what if, instead, the Hansens were only the first Humans that the Borg encountered?
I hate to use evidence from "Enterprise" because so much of its background does contradict previous canon, but in this case, the fact that Vulcans have been a spacefaring race for longer than the Humans gives them more of an opportunity to meet the Borg themselves,
(I'm talking about a lone ship that's far from home, of course, not a nearby encounter. For instance, a Vulcan ship tossed several thousand LY from home thanks to an unstable wormhole or whatever.)
Second example: Species 6339, Unnamed; Species 8472; Species 10026, Unnamed
Species 6339 was explicitly stated to have been first encountered by the Borg about four years before the episode "Infinite Regress" (in VGR's fifth season). Round that up to 5 years for safety, and we get an approximate anchor point of 2371.
Everyone's favorite nonhumanoids, Species 8472, were first encountered (and given their designation) in late 2373.
And finally, in "Dark Frontier" we were introduced to Species 10026, who had probably been found by the Borg only recently.
Now, using these two pairs of values, we can project an approximate rate of the number of encounters of new species the Borg had in TNG times and just before. Like this:
Based on the (unfortunate) events of "Dark Frontier," we must set 2355 as the absolute latest date that the Borg could have encountered Humans for the first time. As the graph shows, if they'd encountered Humans sooner, the graph would be even more distorted.
It seems that the Borg made a sudden and drastic increase in the number of new species right around the time of TNG. It might be interesting to speculate on the reasons for such a remarkable increase in activity.
(Disclaimer: Yes, I know that the writers of "Voyager" probably didn't pay too much attention to the numbers they were assigning. But they're canon, so we might as well try to rationalize them before ignoring them.) Posted by Cartmaniac (Member # 256) on :
I rationalize them by acknowledging the fact they're imaginary.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
quote: since the Borg are assigning numbers sequentially, and therefore chronologically
This strikes me as an unwarrented, or at least not unchallengable, assertion. The numbers could mean anything. Distance from Borg space. A hive mind answer to the Dewey Decimal System. Anything. And, as such, it doesn't seem all that fruitful to derive anything about their history from them.
Though I have to respect that you made a graph. We should see more of those. And pie charts!
Posted by SoundEffect (Member # 926) on :
I would tend to agree that they could be used.
The Borg designations have been shown to refer to assimilated species. The second Borg Queen even told us the species she originates from. Calling a species by a name, (as we do), is less precise than numbers and therefore not used by the Borg.
I think the Species Designations is in fact a chronological "unique identifier" number for assimilated species.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Can we extrapolate that graph backwards to see when the second Borg Queen's species was assimilated?
And how long did Guinan say they had been around for? I'm guessing for a long time they were in just a few star-systems - maybe due to the speed at which they could assimilate species? Maybe by the time they reached the Federation their assimilation speed increased. Maybe due to such a concentration of various species in the one area) i.e. One starship with lots of species on it.
Then we suddenly get the 'probes' in First Conact - which again sped up the process.
I don't know if you've gotten the Borg Enterprise episode yet - but it'd be interesting to see if they look less evolved - indicating they were FROM that time - or more evolved like the FC/Voyager borg.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
Ah the counting sheep approach, its simple, efficient, sounds Borg-like to me.
What would be interesting is if you projected that chart backwards to get an approximated date for their origins and see if it corrosponds with the line from ("Dragons Teeth"[VGR]). [EDIT: Damn you Andrew!]
What was the designation for Arturis's people? and how long had they been fighting the Borg?
Also it might be interesing to mark the dates of the major Borg engagements. (359, Typhon, 8472, UM-1)
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
heeheheh Great Minds... Rev.
What was the line from Dragon's Teeth?
Andrew
Posted by Hunter (Member # 611) on :
The line form Dragons teeth was "The Collective's memory from 900 years ago is fragmentary" or something close to that.Artuis people had been resisting the Borg for 'Centuries'.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Interesting - maybe they only keep the info they need and deem 'history' unnecessary!?!
And didn't Guinan say thousands of years?
Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :
That graph looks almost like the one for Starfleet ship registries.
There are also the Species 262 and 263, assimilated 229 years ago. Well, it would be daring to extrapolate the graph that far.
Posted by TheWoozle (Member # 929) on :
I got the impression that in TNG, the Borg Transwarp conduits where fairly new. One might postulate that before that time, they where using technology much more on-par to what we see of the other races in the Delta Quadrant (in VOY) and had been slowly expanding, as they won wars. Further, when Q had the Enterprise-D meet the Borg as something they couldn't handle, he might also have been showing the Borg, the Federation and teasing them too.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
You know I've said this a few times. I reckon Q caused the whole Borg thing - not because he introduced the Borg to a rich new source of assimilation ground but that here is this ship that appears out of NO-WHERE in a FLASH and then DISAPPEARS again in a FLASH! That would be TECHNOLOGY that the Borg would really really want.
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
quote:Originally posted by AndrewR: I don't know if you've gotten the Borg Enterprise episode yet - but it'd be interesting to see if they look less evolved - indicating they were FROM that time - or more evolved like the FC/Voyager borg.
I am fairly sure that the Borg we will supposedly see in Enterprise (this coming May) are reminants of the 24th C.-collective-sphere that the Ent-E destroyed, not 22nd C.-Borg...
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
Also, the Borg Queen in "Dark Frontier" was of species 125...
Arturis from "Hopes and Fears" was of species 116...
To totally fudge up to whole system, the damn Ferengi are designated as species 180...
On top of that, Species 312 was supposedly assimiliated "hundreds of years ago"...so again, where does that put the Ferengi???
Im sure this was mentioned, but another monkey wrench we've seen is:
Chronologically, the Borg encountered Humans 1343 species (or specie designations) prior to the Ktarians (first seen in 2355)...
...or in other words, 2355 would not be an accurate point of reference for the Human designation by the Borg, as their designation already long predates the Ktarians (again, by over 1300) who were already observed assimilated by that time...
....so I don't think there is a logical process at work here....and this whole theory thus becomes full of holes....
....it would, however, be interesting to see where the El-Aurians fit into the scheme of things as they were seemingly assimiliated ~100 years prior to Voyager....
[ April 18, 2003, 01:04 PM: Message edited by: Futurama Guy ]
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
I don't see how hard it is to believe that a few Ferengi paid their way off Ferenginar and got into mischef and ended up in the Delta Quadrant assimilated by the Borg.
Maybe there's an Iconian Gate near Ferenginar and one or two stepped through onto a borg-world!
OK I'm pushing it.
Maybe it's a scale of usefulness - Ferengi and Kazon low? Human higher?
Posted by David Templar (Member # 580) on :
ROFLMHO, you think the Borg's numbering system is chronological? You forgot that, somewhere along the way, they assimilated a human, who passed along his/her cultural uniqueness to the Collective.
The Collective still recalls that terrifyingly illogical day, when the Starfleet's starship registery numbering scheme entered their collective consciousness. After that event, 2's just doesn't follow 1's anymore.
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
quote:Originally posted by David Templar: You forgot that, somewhere along the way, they assimilated a human, who passed along his/her cultural uniqueness to the Collective.
What'chu talking about, Willis?
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
quote:Originally posted by AndrewR: I don't see how hard it is to believe that a few Ferengi paid their way off Ferenginar and got into mischef and ended up in the Delta Quadrant assimilated by the Borg.
Maybe it's a scale of usefulness - Ferengi and Kazon low? Human higher?
Ugh...dude, sometimes I wonder about you....
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
WHAT!?!
I did say I was pushing for answers.
What if a Q decided to put a Ferengi on Borg Planet #42 just for fun.
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
...and all i am saying is that despite how much i applaud MinutiaeMan's effort, there comes a time that we have to face the facts there there is no plausable solution to it.
Granted TPTB may have tried to make the species designations chronological in the beginning (same goes for registries and stardates), but that, like the rest of Voyager they eventually screwed up...notably in the cases of "The Omega Directive", the Ferengi, the order with Humans fall into the sequence...and so forth.
I can see how it makes sense the Vulcans being assimilated before the Humans and Species 10026 being the most recent additions (and highest number since 8472), but otherwise they just really fucked up a system that they probably intended to make chronological, I just dont think there is any way to resolve it, so it will just have to go on not making sense, as it doesnt have to.
As for the "scale of usefulness"....I think that is pretty much self explainatory...just read the info in Bernd's page and most of the "usefulness" quoted does not quite fall in any particular order either....
Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :
quote:Originally posted by Futurama Guy: To totally fudge up to whole system, the damn Ferengi are designated as species 180...
I found that too in my old notes. Does anyone know which episode it comes from?
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
Well...according the the official website this is the jist on the Ferengi:
quote: SPECIES 180 The Ferengi. It is not known why the Ferengi, an Alpha Quadrant race, has such a low species number, which would imply that they were encountered and catalogued very early in the Borg's existence.
Reference: "Infinite Regress"
Which I don't buy....
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
Stranger things have happend. A giant amoeba for example...a talking, shapeshifting cat...or those doors that are always telling people to be quite.
Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :
So this must come from one of Seven's bright moments in the episode - when she identified one of her identities. Or was she confused and meant to say "Species 5180"?
Anyway, I agree that stranger things have happened -- and we know how likely Ferengi are to end up in a wormhole.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Or some Ferengi in the 24th century's future was stuffing around with space AND time!
Actually an interesting/funny fanfic could be made out of that one little bit of continuity wierdness.
The last scene a Ferengi's 29th century stolen time-ship ends up in 18th century Borg-space!
Maybe the introduction of Ferengi ideals into the Borg collective disrupted them for a time!?! Or made them even more voracious for assimilation!?!
Andrew
Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
What was the accident that caused Quark and Company to travel back to Roswell? A similar incident could have occured.
The Caretaker could also have been to blame for some of this, which may, or may not, tie everything in to a nice little knot. Kind of like the book where Q was used to tie all kinds of things together.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Interesting idea about the Caretaker - but how long had he been on the look out for new DNA or what ever he was doing - how long had he been abducting ships etc?
It would be interesting to find out what the Bajoran and Cardassian numbers were - cause I reckon that the Ferengi are quite close to the Bajorans and the Cardassians. Maybe an explanation as to why the Ferengi aren't seen again after "Aquisition" for a long time - the Cardassians expanded their "union" and became more militarily agressive. This became a barrier stopping any Ferengi movement in that general area.
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
...you think too much...
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
...Besides, the Borg have already been shown time-traveling. And we all know what that does to causality.
That kinked curve could be adjusted a bit without abandoning chronological order. Let's assume that a species is numbered when first encountered by the Borg. But in that case, we only have one solid datapoint, not two: we know the date of the 8472 encounter, but NOT the date of the 6339 one. Instead, Seven in "Infinite Regress" says the 6339 encountered the Borg four years prior, which isn't the same thing at all. The real 6339 datapoint could be centuries before the 6339 spotted their first drone, and centuries before the 8472 one.
OTOH, this still leaves the fact that Species 10026 was encountered prior to "Dark Frontier". So we still get a kink, just not necessarily in 2371 yet, but in 2373. Perhaps the Queen had something of a stutter that day, and meant Species 1026?
Another way to remove the kink from the curve would be to say that a stray Species 8472 individual had been spotted by the Borg in our universe sometime in the medieval times and duly recorded. Perhaps such an encounter was the very reason the Borg decided to try and enter the fluid realm?
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Treknophyle (Member # 509) on :
I like the chronological idea, but there must be other possible numbering systems as well as chronological or Borg-Dewey/Decimal.
What about: - Type of species (humaniod - variation from Species 1) - Mental ability: psionic ability, intelligence (Oops, no. Yes the Vulcans have a higher number, but so do the Ferengi - and they are neither more intelligent, not more psionic than humans).
- Technological: level of technology at time of assimilation)
- Distance from one of the transwarp hubs (first, last or NUMBER OF digits could indicate hub).
Any other ideas?
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
I like the distance from hubs idea... Although it may have been the intention in TNG that transwarp was a new thing. However, it could have just been a new thing to them and not for the Borg.
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
I dunno, it did take them a year to get to Earth following the QWho? encounter. So either it wasn't top priority for 'em or they either didn't have transwarp technology yet OR just plain didn't have it reach that far across this Galaxy yet...
...you know the silly thing is...is that if the Borg really wanted to destroy the Federation and have the ability to time travel...why the hell didn't they (or any other advanced race with the means for that matter) just go to some obscure solar system, go back in time there undetected and *BOOM* anniliate Earth or the Federation altogether, and not, say attempt time travel in plainsight of say the Enterprise, ya know?
Hell, the sling-shot method of Kirks is 100 years old and instructions probably are attainable to anyone for the right price (Project Genesis anyone?) so really, the entire Star Trek universe is held together by the fact that none of the alien species they've encountered wasn't smart enough to go back in time undetected and do a number on the Federation....it sounds so simple.... Posted by Phoenix (Member # 966) on :
quote:Originally posted by Futurama Guy: Hell, the sling-shot method of Kirks is 100 years old and instructions probably are attainable to anyone for the right price (Project Genesis anyone?) so really, the entire Star Trek universe is held together by the fact that none of the alien species they've encountered wasn't smart enough to go back in time undetected and do a number on the Federation....it sounds so simple....
As I think someone else suggested on another thread, it is highly probable that the slingshot time travel method was hushed up by Temporal Investigations or Section 31, and all those who knew about it had the Official Secrets Act (or the Federation's equivalent) waved in front of their faces.
It's nice to know that whoever did that is actually competant, unlike most other Federation people we seem to see.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Treknophyle: "Any other ideas?"
Perhaps the species names are written in Okudaic?You know, the language that consists solely of seemingly meaningless rows of numbers. The Feds can read that language without problems - perhaps this is the "linguacode" referred to in TMP, a truly universal language so close to perfection that even the Borg appreciate it.
There's an odd lack of references to low four-digit species. The over-representation of low three-digit species could be excused in the chronologial interpretation because most of these are Delta species and/or mentioned because they contributed trademark Borg technologies or drone types, logically assimilated early on. The lack of anything between 571 and 3259 is odd, though.
One could assume that species beyond 3259 would be "hot topics" because they are recent findings and the Borg have recently messed around with people our heroes are familiar with. Indeed, this is true for four out of the ten 4-digiters.
Incidentally, why can't #6291 be the Yridians from TNG/DS9? Their mistaken extinction probably was something applying to pre-TNG or early TNG times, as the rediscovery was old news and inspiration for Janeway when she was moving up the Starfleet ladder. And even if we see TNG Yridians in ENT, there's plenty of time for them to get pseudo-extinct prior to TNG. (And perhaps plenty of reason for "information merchants" to fake their own deaths...)
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
anyone think that the species designations might be more like the dewey decimal system, or each digit has a non-sequential meaning in the series (like a the first digit means first encountered in a certain area of the galaxy, 0 through 9, and possibly the other digits are designators of the species' time contacted and other distinguishing characteristics about how information was recorded on them.. i.e Species 8472 was encountered in a section of space the borg classify as '8' in subsection '4' or whatever and the rest might be a time code or a qualification of their assumed characteristics)
Posted by Treknophyle (Member # 509) on :
Captain Mike: Exactly. Put distance from a hub in there (which shows part of the Galaxy), and you may well have it.
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
also, on the topic of the Ferengi, they do have a knack for showing up many years prior to when they are 'supposed' to have... *cough*acquisition*cough*
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
Oh geez...thanks for reminding us about that incident!! Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by Phoenix: I think someone else suggested on another thread, it is highly probable that the slingshot time travel method was hushed up by Temporal Investigations or Section 31, and all those who knew about it had the Official Secrets Act (or the Federation's equivalent) waved in front of their faces.
Picard and Riker have a conversation about this in "Time Squared", where Picard asks what ways there are to time travel, and Riker makes the interesting comment:
"None that we know of. In theory, accelerating beyond warp 10."
And Picard replies:
"Using the gravitational pull of a star to slingshot blah blah blah".
So, as of 2265, one of the brightest crews in Starfleet only knew of time travel "in theory". Which is strange, because time travel was almost casual by the time of ST IV, and even in later TNG. But there's also the fact that Picard had at least HEARD of it...
Posted by newark (Member # 888) on :
The Ferengi could have been in space as long as the Vulcans. One of their Rules of Acquistion states that fortune is to be made in the stars. Considering these rules were codified and used for centuries, I think implies the Ferengi left their home world seeking profits elsewhere.
There is no evidence the Hansens were the first humans assimilated by the Borg. Other humans from earlier times could have encountered the Borg.
I agree that the number system employed by the Borg is chronological in nature. Which raises the question-the progenitors of the Borg, were they species 0 or 1?
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
I think it was stated once somewhere that the Ferengi bought warp drive rather than invented it. I can't back this up, however.
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
quote:Originally posted by Topher: I think it was stated once somewhere that the Ferengi bought warp drive rather than invented it. I can't back this up, however.
I'll back ya -- Quickie Ferengi history lesson from "Little Green Men":
quote: NOG - It says here that humans didn't even have currency until five thousand years ago. Let alone banking, speculative investments or a unified global economy.
QUARK - They're a primitive, backward people, Nog. Pity them.
NOG - But think about it, uncle. That means they went from being savages with a simple barter system to the leaders of a vast interstellar Federation in only five thousand years... It took us twice as long to establish the Ferengi Alliance. And we had to buy warp technology from the...
QUARK - (cuts him off) Five thousand... ten thousand...what's the difference? The speed of technological advancement isn't nearly as important as short-term quarterly gains...
Posted by Guardian 2000 (Member # 743) on :
Pardon my thread necromancy, but:
Crap! . . . it would've been much easier if I'd searched for Borg info *before* making my new page instead of *after*. I've ended up recreating Timo's point about 6339 and, of course, the observation of accelerating Species designations among the Borg from the original post. Would've been much quicker had I just been able to copy them.
I'll go ahead and throw some credit your way. In the meantime, I hope the page is enjoyable on its own merits, including the theory as to the reason for the accelerating Borg species designations in the mid-2370's.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:It's worth noting here that although the Borg are often viewed as having all the stealthiness of a bull in a china shop, this actually isn't the case at all. For instance, in 2364 the Borg probed the Federation-Romulan Neutral Zone, perhaps some of the most well-defended and well-monitored real estate in the Alpha Quadrant. There, they destroyed or assimilated bases and outposts on both sides. Neither side had the first clue who did it. Compare that to "Balance of Terror"[TOS1], in which Earth outposts, even under devastating attack by a Romulan ship armed with weapons of extraordinary power, had sufficient time to send distress calls and telemetry.
Possibly, the Borg took not only the colonies but also the various satelites, communications systems and monitoring devices. Kind of as a cross-section of the culture's tech level.
By TNG, the taken colonies might have been considered low security by both Federation and Romulans- as they had no contact for 30(?) years. Heck, the colonies night not have been actual parts of either empire, but protectorates claimed when both powers were trying to grab as much territory as possible.
So- it's not stealth as much as it's a lack of vigilance on the Fed/Romulans' part.
But thats' just my notion- we'll never really know.
It may be Borg policy to nab colonies in disputed areas- both as a gauge of the powers' defenses and (possibly) to have them remain at conflict with each other as a means of improving the species prior to assimilation.
All that is assuming that the Borg are only one collective and that it's run by the scheming petty Queen from Voyager (and not the unstoppable force from Q who? /BOBW)
Also, [quote]For the Borg to have only encountered 250 species over 670 years is remarkable. By the time the Federation was 200 years old, for instance, an individual like Data could encounter 1754 "non-human" species in his lifetime ("Darmok"[TNG5]), and members of hundreds of humanoid species reside on Earth per Harry Kim in "Hope and Fear"[VOY4].[/i] Hmmm...they might have spent all that time assimilating a few (or single) interstellar cultures that fought back bitterly (resulting in that whole "fragmentary history" from biological or computer systems attack).
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Q-Who? Was on the other day and Guinan says they have (the Borg) existed for hundreds of millenia.
Is it possible that they weren't originally of this Galaxy and only arrived and set up systems and started assimilating 1000+ years ago?
Andrew
Posted by wingsabre (Member # 1682) on :
That's possible. They could have been created in another galaxy or whatever.
I think the borgs was slowly introduced much before Q-Who?, and I think it was the episode where we first saw the return of the Romulans. Remember there were unknown attacks along the netural zone and both Romulans and Federation outpost were attacked. Vulcans's species number were lower than humans but then if they destroyed an outpost it wouldnt be a problem since the first alien they cataloged could have been a Vulcan officer.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
I don't think it's a mystery that "The Neutral Zone" featured Borg attacks. I mean, that's explicitly confirmed later.
Posted by wingsabre (Member # 1682) on :
Yeah but i like a build to a new enemy or at least an introduction. We never got that with the Xindi. We weren't able to connect with them and they may have personalize the whole Xindi confilict with Trip's sister but then we never met her so that was pointless. They should have killed a member of Mayweather's family, which we saw before the Xindi conflict, and maybe the Xindi conflict would have been a better arch.
They gave a mystery as to a new enemy with "The Neutral Zone" and that new enemy was the Borg. In DS9 they introduced the Dominion well in advanced but we all thought that they were a federation in the gama quadrant only to find out later that they were the anti-federation. It's good writing.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Dont think for a mnute they had the Borg in mind when they wrote The Neutral Zone the way they foreshadowed the Dominion- most of early TNG was made so it could be shown out of order in syndication.
The whole "mysterious alien menace to be followed up with later" was also the lure of the parasite aliens, but that got forgotten in favor of more holodeck/Alexander tantrum/ Luwaxana Troi tantrum/ Data goes crazy-gets possessed fucko episodes.
Sadly, in later TNG, the looming Borg invasion threat was far more intresting than when they actually showed up.
I secretly yearned for a Cube to come through the wormhole in DS9's first two seasons though, to spice things up. Now I'm glad they never made an appearance.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
OK, you two have lost me here.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I was trying to point out that the "foreshadowing" of the bOrg in TNG was neither intentional when it was written nor was it "good writing", but I'm tired and rambling.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
I'm not sure what foreshadowing we're talking about. All we get is "Someone attacked these outposts in a freaky way!" and then, half a year later or so, "It was these guys!" I am perhaps not at the top of my game either.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
But as to when exactly the Borg were all figured out, you'd have to ask Maurice Hurley, I guess. Clearly they changed a lot in the development process, from actual insects to humanoids, and then, in the episodes themselves, from an apparently self-contained hive mind to an expansionistic one.
(So what has he been up to lately, I asked myself. Writing for 24 apparently, which is not bad at all. He also wrote the Sci-Fi Channel late-night favorite Groom Lake. Maybe that film is not really a favorite, but I've noticed it twice. Amy Acker is in it! And Shatner. Which is a curious combination, but then it turns out the creator of the Borg wrote it, and Shatner directed? Huh. Anyway, Amy Acker is awfully charming.)
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Is this a new show? Mmmmmm Amy Acker! Shatner? Is Boston Legal still going?
Groom Lake? I was just looking at it via google Earth the other night!
Go north from Groom lake and there is a giant equilateral triangle containing a series of concentric rings etched perfectly into the ground. Oh and it points EXACTLY North. There seems to be a giant '3' etched into it too.
Looked around for some other triangles.
MOST probably a target for bombers.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Oh re: the Borg in DS9 I thought it was a good idea what Peter David did in the beginning of "The Seige" the first stand alone DS9 novel.
The Wormhole was undergoing some sort of weird behaviour - sort of like those inversions from "The Visitor" and a Borg vessel comes through at that moment and it's only glimsed at being a cube before it is obliterated due to the crazy antics of the wormhole. The unexpected destruction of a cube like that was then relayed back to the collective and that region of space was labelled in the collective as a 'no-go zone'.
Thus we never see the Borg coming through the wormhole or anywhere near that region again. Nice throw-away bit.
Posted by The Ginger Beacon (Member # 1585) on :
What if the Borg the Borg only list species that they would consider assimilating. I mean, there are more than 250 species on a single planet, but perhaps the Borg only assimilated the inteligent ones (people, when the Borg come, your hamster is safe).
It could be that the Borg orriginate in an area of the galaxy that has planets where little or no inteligent life has evolved. Or Texas.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Ginger: No, because the Borg gave the Kazon a number, but deemed the Kazon as "unworthy of assimilation". (It's nice to know that even the Borg have some standards. )
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
A movie, not a TV show, Andrew. And not, you know, a good movie.
Posted by wingsabre (Member # 1682) on :
Actually i'd like to see a series about the parasite threat. They may have or may not have intended "the Netural Zone" to be the first introduction of the borg, but if they were thinking about creating an enemy and then thought it up for "Q-Who?" then it's fine with me.
As for the numbering, they probably reference lower species to the dominant species. Like hampsters would be referenced to humans.
Posted by Guardian 2000 (Member # 743) on :
Re: AndrewR's thought of the Borg only arriving in the Milky Way 1000 years ago or so:
While that's possible, I would've expected the Borg to be much more advanced when they got here. Intergalactic travel isn't exactly a walk in the park.
An alternative, given the Borg habit of crossing dimensional boundaries, would be that they themselves came from somewhere else . . . i.e. the Borg aren't from our corner of the dimensional plane. This idea would have certain intriguing advantages, not the least of which is that whatever technology they had might not be compatible with our universe and thus, they'd basically have had to start from scratch. Still, though, I'd have expected them to develop faster.
So assuming they originated in our galaxy, then here's a thought . . . suppose the Borg didn't even have warp drive until sometime between 1476 and 2145? It would certainly explain their control of a mere handful of systems early on.
On the other hand, if the Borg existed for thousands of centuries but only in the past thousand years or so really got cracking as a spacefaring civilization, then the question becomes one of what they were doing before that. I mean, just ponder the idea of 21st Century proto-Borg considering a space program. Why would they bother? How could they design a ship if they have no technological creativity?
And so we'd have to assume that the Borg either only became a collective after their race's space program was already in place, or else it somehow happened before that but someone from another system dropped in to say hello. And if someone else dropped in, it really only makes sense if they had warp drive or very-high-sublight engines, unless it was a probe.
(One can almost imagine the original Borg race with Apollo-esque capsules having an advanced sublight probe drop in on them. Assimilating the technology and deciding to go visit the senders, taking the probe's tech and their own and saying "We will adapt.")
But, we're forgetting something. If the Borg were a collective making use of primitive 21st-Century-style tech, then anyone who got too far away couldn't have been a part of that collective, until subspace radio and/or vincula were created. So, until FTL communication was a reality, it hardly seems likely that the Borg could've successfully conquered anyone.
"Resistance is futile. We are the . . . er . . uh . . . who are we?" "Well, I think I'm Bob." "And I'm Steve." "Ah, yes, right. And I'm Jack. Resistance is futile for some reason. Actually, lemme get back to you on that."
And as a raw issue of communication, just what is the bandwidth of the Collective? I mean, can the Borg Collective's networking apparatus ("I can hear their thoughts") be maintained by a megabit connection? Gigabit? Hi-Fi Wi-Fi? Could the early Borg even go wireless without a temporary disconnect from the Collective? Are they using XML?
There are easily a hundred different fanfics that could be written from just these sorts of questions, each taking a different tack on the history of the Borg.
Posted by wingsabre (Member # 1682) on :
Well i think there's two roots you could look at.
1. The Borg came from another dimension. This could be explained by incorporating M theory into it. 2. The Borg was created by a huminoid race and was used as a way to preserve life. They served man and linked in a collectie untill a war happend and they were used as weapons/ slaves by enslaving others. They they rebelled. or A queen appeared and they began to spread.
The borg could have been an entity that was not linked before and then something happened like a queen that linked them and made them the Borg of today.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
M theory is, like, the best theory.
Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :
I don't know, eleven dimensions are an intensely curling pain to live with.
(Also, an M-theory dimension != a Star Trek dimension.)
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Mabye the technological aspect of the Borg is a recent addition- possibly the orgainc aspect was a race that explored via sleeper ship or other relativly low-tech means and developed the first cybernetic enhancments to allow them to survive their interstellar transits.
Though if I were writing a Trek story, I'd play it this way: Said aincent explorers without warp drive (it's not like it has to be common everywhere guys) develop a interdimensional means of traveling great distances. This works nicely for a time and many primitave species are catalogued for later contact (explaining the erratic numbers for some Alpha races). However, the dimension they are using as a shortcut is inhabited by spooky machines of cool and inhuman inteligence that investigated these strance organic lifeforms on a cellular level. Thus the first Borg were created.
Or, for (shits and giggles), the orgainc species (00001?) could have been radicly advanced prior to coruption by the extrradimensional machines and, as the species was being assimilated, spread their genetic potential all over the galaxy as ameans of svaing their own asses on some level (linking the Preservers or Iconans if you want the neat bow-tie wrap-up that trek too often uses).
As for the Queen idea, that was probably an unintended side-effect of assimilating an advanced Matriarchical that influenced Borg thinking.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Any origin of the Borg that isn't simply "a bunch of people developed ever more advanced technologies and applied these over time to the radical remaking of themselves and their environment" misses the point completely, in my opinion. The Borg have come out on the dark side of the curve, or the singularity, or whatever you want to call it.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Or they are in need of a class-action lawsuit against Philip K Dick.
Mabye it was Ghost in the Shell cosplay taken waaaay too far.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
I can't think of anything resembling the Borg in a Dick novel. Hints of the short story "Autofac", perhaps, but then, anything with self-replicating machines shares that resemblance.
Anyway, what were you thinking of, in particular?
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Nothing per se (as I've only read a few og his short stories and never made it through Available Light)- I was thinking of his "father of cyberpunk" honorific I hear bandied about on occasion.
More to the culture of sci fi that thinks implants and wetware will become common human enhancments.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Philip Dick had little if anything to do with cyberpunk, though. Not that people don't claim that he did.
What's Available Light, by the way? Amazon returns photography manuals and a book by Warren Ellis. Who is cyberpunk, to the extent that that has any meaning today.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Huh. I may (probably) have my authors confused- I bought Available Light several years back at DFW ariport to read on the flight to LA, but had a cocktail or two and left it on the plane somewhere. I've read the "Do Androids Deam of electric Sheep" short, but was not thrilled by it (though Blade Runner was cool- fuck the Director's Cut though: buy the "voiceover version" for the great detective film noir).
Many "Cyberpunk" concepts are still a major influence in pop culture and sci fi (though not much in books now)- consider the Matrix, Ghost in The Shell, parts of Cowboy Bebop- hell, even some of DS9's shady characters did as well.
Oddly though, the best concepts never make it on screen (okay, outside of anime).
My cosplay joke still works though- you cant take that away from me! Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
I don't mean that cyberpunk doesn't exist anymore. Well, not exactly. I mean that the world has thoroughly absorbed it at this point. (And also that, as a specific literary movement, it's run its course.) It doesn't exist independently, let's say.
Except for when it does.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Sounds like you're describing "Alternative Music". Posted by wingsabre (Member # 1682) on :
It could also be that the Borg was once a slave race.
Say there was an Empire in the Delta Quadrant that had control of a small solar system. They had no advanced weaponry and were a dieing race that uses sleeper ships to travel. This race was not advance, but had perfected nanotech. They use nanites to preserve their lives, and to enslave those who have committed crimes.
As they begin to conquer a species they would expose their leaders and governments to nanites and them their citizens. This process would take several centuries and some times the nanites remained dormant until needed. This was done so they could be submissive and not propagate, so as they die out the Empire could take over the territory. These cyborgs would also be individual ones so they would not link to each other by a central source.
The empire race could also be very xenophobic, and keep the borgs separate from themselves.
They continue to expand for centuries, expanding this shadow empire. Eventually after expanding for thousands of years they attempted to conquer the 125th race they meet. This race was telepathic and as they were assimilated they formed a link. They disconnected themselves from the central link and rebelled against the Empire. Since the Empire still traveled in sleeper ships they did not know that and expected the race to be ready to serve them after a century when the Empire expanded enough. Then their queen at the time took the position of the borg queen. This species was able to add a collectivize consciousness to the Borg and added the ones form the conquering empire to their new collectiveness by modifying the nanites. After a millenima of a �civil war� the empire was absorbed into the Borg. Because of this war the Borg territory did not expand until the 22nd century, and even then their expansion was slow because not enough tech was present.
This could explain the reason why the Borgs are not everywhere in the Delta Quadrant
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
Also remember that in "Dragon's Teeth" the Vaadwaur said that in their time the Borg were a minor nuisance, not a force to be reckoned with...
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Vaadwaur were probably lying. Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Because they hate anyone with short, easily spelled names.
Mabye the Borg were themselves victims of someone else's nanotech warfare experiments.... Species 2 may have been the jerks that attacked the peacful pre-borg humanoids and, in a nice ironic plot point, the big bad invaders are themselves wiped out by their victims.
I think it's the nappy hair that made the Kazon unworthy of assimilation. The borg would have been laughed at with Sideshow Bob hair.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Simon is right though. The "message" of the Borg (and the Cybermen too) is of all-encompassing technology taking away what it means to be "human" (if you'll forgive me sounding to trite). A complex backstory takes away their purity (as Voyager showed to great effect).
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Yeah....it's just fanboy damage-control for Voyager. Anything to make them marginally intresting again.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Uh, except it does exactly the opposite.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I dont agree....there needs to be something to reconcile the two versions of Borg we've seen.
Even if it's just wild speculation or a fanfic.
And, as Liam pointed out, the idea of cyborging out untill the humanity is lost is not a concept unique to Trek.
I liked the Borg growing babies idea- beats the very limited Voyager version that cant even learn without assimilation.
Alas, it sems the Borg suffer from "Wolverine Syndrome"- the more you know, the less intresting they became.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
What two versions would that be?
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Look, VOYAGER was all a holosuite fantasy of Harry Kim's before he left DS9.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
There's more than two versions. There's the original "hive mind that assimilates alien technology and makes it their own" which turned into the "hive mind which takes alien technology AND species and makes it into their own" into "rubbish robot-zombie things".
Posted by wingsabre (Member # 1682) on :
the interesting thing is, past villian race get's domesticated. that happened with the klingons, romulans, domionion, and other race. After the end of the series which they play the main bad guys they eventually become good. The borg is the only race that should not, but to me i think voyager made the borgs look weak. it was like the ultimate backup. Like janice on friends.
Berman: "damn we need to fill up some air time, what about the borg?" Brag: "yeah, and we'll cut the time of the show so we can get more money from commercials" Berman: "how about product placement? we can always have the borg wear parts from radio shack" Brag: "oh, oh, oh, i got another idea, we'll end with this with a time travel thingy to avoid the borg" Berman: "arn't we doing the time travel thing too much?" Brag: "heck no, these fans will buy everything up. we just need to milk the cash cow." Berman: "what if we bring Q back?" Brag: "Can't he's on 'Andromeda'"
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Er...the Dominion was never "domesticated" or a "good guy". The Romulans are never anyone's friends- last five minutes of Nemesis notwithstanding, og course.
The two version of Borg I see are the "hive mind of power and technology far beyond your ability to deal with". They implanted infants- possibly even grew them, learned what they could about a potential culture before assimilation and nothing worked twice on them. Their ships regenerated when damaged and had a powerful Subspace Field in lieu of shields.
....and the second version is the "Scheming, petty, revenge-seeking Queen-led pack of easily-beaten zombies" that was introduced in First Contact and became steadily less formidible untill the once awe-inspiring Cube was being destroyed by a single torpedo fired from the batmobile.
It always bugged me when I'd read about a writer for Voyager having never seen most of TNG or DS9. Small wonder the show had it's problems.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Except those aren't different concepts, just different implementations, and wacky origin stories don't address the difference anyway.
Posted by wingsabre (Member # 1682) on :
the dominions are being domesticated by Odo. I haven't read the DS9 books, but what i'm thinking is that they will not be as big as a threat as they were before, and they may one day become allies of the federation and the klingon empire. I don't think we will ever see them again as the enemy they once were. Just like the Ferengi.
As for the romulans, to me they slowly became domesticated on DS9. We saw good romulans and the senate was not a big threat in Nemesis, before they were all killed. Remember in Nemesis the enemy was supposed to be the Romulans but it turned out to be Remans.
I think if there's a new series that takes place after Nemesis, the enemy will probably be the Breen or a new Race. There is one open plot whole that a series could start on, which is the Borg attempt to assimulate humans by implanting nanites on Earth and have it spread slowly.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Well...sorta. It was the Romulan military that was Shinzon's main source of political power in wiping out the senate. It was not just a Reman insurrection.
In the latest Worlds of DS9 book, the founders reveal that they have a "god" of sorts, -they find it (kind of a planet-sized changling) but it's been killed by a race of religous zealots called er....something.
The founders all become extremely dispondent and split, leaving Laas and Odo as the sole leaders of the Dominion and having to deal with the (often brutal) facts of Dominion politics. Odo had not been real, successful in changing the Founder's opinions- if anything, it was the other way around, with Odo accepting the mantle of "Founder" and running a new version of Wyoun(sp?) on errands to gather intel from across the Dominion.
The notion of nanite infection has already been (poorly) addressed by the Voyager novels. Skip those.
I'd like to see more of the Breen- but it might lead to the "less is more" problem the Borg had- any backstory is likely to detract from their appeal.
Please pardon any mis-spellings: We've got another hurricane hitting this weekend and I just got back from the bars. A Florida thing.
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