So I was in Las Vegas and visited the Star Trek Experience. One of the items on display was Picard's photo album from Generations, open to a page with a printout from the Solar News Network, dated 10-11-2161. It is an article about the Federation being founded. Incidentally, it makes five founding members canonical--at least, as canonical as things like the "Ju'day class." I haven't tried to read it all yet, but here's the best crop-and-enhance digital photo I can provide.
No, there's nothing earth-shattering, but some of you might find it interesting.
it's hard to make out the small print but I think I can see a reference to UESPA, the Romulan War and a George(?) Picard, which explaines why it's in Picards family album.
Posted by Phoenix (Member # 966) on :
Solar News Network Hard Copy Extract
It's Federation Day! 5 sign new UFP constitution
San Francisco, Earth - Declaring it a landmark day in the history of each of their worlds, five (envoys?) today breathed life into the fledgling United Federation of Planets, with the signing of the new organisation's Constitution amidst much pomp and circumstance.
"We are truly entering a brave new world of peace, exploration and security with the establishment of this Federation," declared Earth ambassador Thomas (Vanderbilt?), whose remarks were echoed by representatives from Vulcan, Andor, (Talar?) and Alpha Centauri.
"Following the end of your world's war with the unknown Romulan enemy, such a union as we create here today is the most logical course of action any of our peoples can take," said Ambassador (T'Jar?) of Vulcan.
UESPA Maj. Gen. (Georges?) ?. Picard, an aide to (Vanderbilt?), noted afterward the ???? of the conference - which met in exactly the same (fashion?) of the founders of Earth's old United Nations, who came together only (215?) years earlier in this same city in the aftermath of the (horrors?) of another costly war.
"What is occuring here today is one sign that some good can come of such a ??????," Picard noted.
"We defy anyone, even the Romulans, to test our resolve now for (collective?) security," declared Ambassador ???? (Kel?) of (Talar?), while (Sarshd?) of Andor spoke of future greatness for the infant union and predicted rapid expansion. Ambassador ???? ???? signed for the newly independent Centauri system.
Today's events were but the ceremonial endgame for the often (emotive?) negotiations, which began in earnest after the defeat of hostile forces at ????? effectively ended the Romulan war only a little more than a year ago. Even today, some sources reported a ???? ???? involving the (Talarite?) (Kel?) and (Sarshd?).
Although those taking part today (waived?) off revealing many specific details, the five after signing immediately (conducted?) the first ever meeting of the UFP Council long enough to elect (Vanderbilt?) as president, with (Sarshd?) as vice president.
Also, the council unanimously voted to continue meeting in San Francisco, with an all new building in the design stages near the historic old (P????) (fort?) and Golden Gate Bridge. Council sources predicted at least three months would be needed before the fledgling UFP bureaucracy would be ready for business.
Sorry the names are completely off...
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
I must be truly insane to try reading this... Uncertain words are in parentheses, and I left a set of question marks for each word I couldn't read at all.
quote:SAN FRANCISCO, Earth (SNN) -- Declaring it a landmark day in the history of each of their worlds, five (envoys) today breathed life into the fledgling United Federation of Planets with the signing of the new organization's Constitution amid much pomp and circumstance.
"We are truly entering a brage new world of peace, exploration and security with the establishment of this Federation, declared Earth ambassador Thomas Vanderbilt, whose remarks were echoed by representatives from Vulcan, Andor, Tellar, and Alpha Centauri. "Following the end of your world's war with the unseen Romulan enemy, such a union as we create here today is the most logical course of action any of our peoples can take," added Ambassador T'Jen of Vulcan.
UESPA Maj. Gen. Georges E. Picard, an aide to Vanderbilt, noted afterward the (???) of the conference -- which met in exactly the same fashion as the founders of Earth's old United Nations, who came together (only) 215 years earlier in this same city in the aftermath of the (horrors) of another costly war.
"What is occurring here today is one sign that some good can come of such a (???)," Picard noted.
"We defy anyone, even the Romulans, to test our resolve now for collective security," declared Ambassador (Natha Kell) of Tellar, while (Saraht) of Andor spoke of future greatness for the infant union and predicted rapid expansion. Ambasador (Titus Cleet) signed for the newly independent Centauri system.
Today's events were but the ceremonial endgame for the often-(elusive) negotiations, which began in earnest after the defeat of histile forces at Cheron effectively ended the Romulan War only a little more than a year ago. Even today, some (???) reported a later (???) involving the Tellarite (Kell) and (???).
Although those taking part today waived off revealing many specific details, the five after signing immediately convened the first-ever meeting of the UFP Council long enough to elect Vanderbilt as president, with (Saraht) as vice president.
Alsol, the Council unanimously voted to continue meeting in San Francisco, with an all-new building in the design stages near the historic old Presidio fort and Golden Gate Bridge. Council sources predicted at least three months would be needed before the fledgling UFP bureaucracy would be ready for business.
Well, this definitely suggests why Jean-Luc Picard would want to keep a clipping of this article...
Cool find!
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Remember: Service guarentees citizenship!
Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
"Presidio Fort"? There's the old Presidio miliary reserve (now a National Park) and there's the historic old Fort Point (now under the south arch of Golden Gate Bridge), and other forts in the area, but I don't think there's ever been any such thing as a "Presidio Fort".
Then again, what do I expect? They tend to get the Golden Gate Bridge backwards half the time... Posted by Ryan McReynolds (Member # 28) on :
Just for random trivia, the album also features a hand-written letter in French, either to or from Picard's relative/girlfriend/who knows?.
If anyone hasn't visited the Experience in some time, I assume it has been retrofitted, because there is Enterprise stuff all over the place, including really cool replicas of Suliban and Andorian heads. It is amazing how much more realistic and well-built the Enterprise props are even compared to Voyager's... must be in anticipation of HDTV resolution. There is also Enterprise info added to the timeline, which may be a reasonably authoritative source for Archer's birthdate: 2112. I think this was the subject of some confusion given conflicting info in the "Broken Bow" script, the novelization, Writer's Guide, and so on. My girlfriend even got a stuffed Porthos for my dragging her along.
I didn't see anything particularly noteworthy, other than the above. Some desk models, but I assume they were there before.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Personally, I'd just as soon forget any references to inhabited worlds around Alpha Centauri.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Why? Alpha Centauri is a trinary system, but a prime candidate for some form of colonization in the Trek universe, because at least one of them is a G-type star. In fact, Alpha Centauri A is a G2V star, very similar to Sol itself. And although binaries in general are supposed to be less hospitable towards life (as we know it) because of the probability of more erratic orbits of any planets in the system, Alpha Centauri A and B are far enough apart for any planets closer than 3 AUs to be in perfectly stable orbits.
The July 2002 issue of The Magazine featured a behind the scenes on 'Picard's Family Album' featured in the Experience. It included a lot of the various photos and the like.
Just for shits and giggles, some of the more interesting customized items included a number of awards he/his family received. I wish I had a scanner but here is the text version of 'em.
The first one:
quote:
Grankite Order of Tactics
Class of Excellence
Is Awarded To
Capt. Jean-Luc Picard
In recognition of his development of the Picard maneuver during the Battle of Maxia
U.S.S. Stargazer - Stardate 38946.2
The second one:
quote:
The Terran Winemakes Association Bestows Its
Certificate of Excellence
In Winemaking To
Maurice Picard
Ch�teau Picard Bordeaux 2305 Apellation Bordeaus Control�e Mis en Bouteille par M. Picard
And finally:
quote:
The Forty-First
Starfleet Academy Marathon
Danula II - April 2323
Be it known to all beings, life forms, and citizens of the galaxy, that
Jean-Luc Picard, Corps of Cadets
has been judged the winner of the 40-kilometer competition, and is
Posted by Ryan McReynolds (Member # 28) on :
quote:Originally posted by Futurama Guy:
Grankite Order of Tactics
Class of Excellence
Is Awarded To
Capt. Jean-Luc Picard
In recognition of his development of the Picard maneuver during the Battle of Maxia
U.S.S. Stargazer - Stardate 38946.2
Interesting. Picard had no idea to what the "Battle of Maxia" referred to in "The Battle," suggesting that Starfleet used an entirely different name for the incident.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
1.) It is likely that in the not too distant future we will be able to tell with some reasonable degree of accuracy whether or not there are any planets in the Alpha Centauri system. If there are not, it will bother me on some very nerdy level if Star Trek insists that there are.
2.) Alpha Centauri gets planets in only one reference that I'm aware of, in a context that is later almost completely altered, if not abandoned outright.
3.) Personally, I'd prefer to have a better known world on the list.
All that aside, the only two worlds which we know for sure to be founding members are Earth and Vulcan, and of those, I think only Vulcan has actually been explicitly described as such in dialogue, though there are mountains of implicit evidence for Earth. The way Enterprise is going suggests that Andor(ia) is a shoe-in, but beyond that, almost anyone could be including without violating a strict sense of canon. So, I guess, you know, whatever. I hardly have any firm reason to keep Alpha Centauri out. Just a general feeling.
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
Alliance between UDF and RPR? Didn't that happen last year? Maybe those pages were created just for the Exhibiton or Nemesis?
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
BTW: When I visited the Exhibition two years ago, there was another page opened with a letter from the Daystrom Institute
quote:DAYSTROM INSTITUTE FOR ADVANCED STUDIES Committe for quadcentenial Apollo Eleven moon landing
Dear Jean-Luc,
This is letter is to confirm that you will be attending cememoration activities for the lunar landing activities. In this day and age of starships, transwarp conduits, wormholes, and the transporter, it is astonishing to think that only 400 years ago, three humans ventured forth in a metal and plastic space capsule to land on the Earth's moon over 350.000 kilometers away.
You are scheduled to arrive on July 16th and stay through the fourth day for the final ceremony. Hope you can stand up to the endless receptions and parties. On July 20th, the moon will be just a silver. I've always liked the moon when it is in that phase ...it does have the best viewing ...and it always fortells of a new beginning.
Remember Hypollita's line from "A Midsummer's Night Dream"?
Four days will quickly steep themselves in night. Four nights will quickly dream away the time;
And then the moon, like to a silver bow New-bent in heaven, shall behold the night Of our solemnities.
Don't let it be too solemn.
Daystrom Institute * Reply to SOL-10102910291029.89191029 * AKK * UFP 01921
quote:The Starfleet Academy Gilbert-Sullivan Society
Cordially invite you to a special presentation of the spring term production of
The Mikado
Host Playhouse Number Two (???) April 14th, 2325 Curtain rises at 1430 hours Cast party to follow at the Kobayashi Maru Pub
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
Well, at least there's finally something vaguely semi-canon regarding the nature of Alpha Centauri ("newly independent"). Of course, we don't know for sure what it's independent from, but it probably was an early Earth colony.
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
quote:Originally posted by Harry: Well, at least there's finally something vaguely semi-canon regarding the nature of Alpha Centauri ("newly independent"). Of course, we don't know for sure what it's independent from, but it probably was an early Earth colony.
Well it fits nicely with the idea we had going a long time ago that Alpha Centauri was a colony before WWIII and that is where Zephram Cochrane came-from and that he was stuck on Earth in the mean-time.
And on those images posted above - the page opposite the Atlantis Project has pictures of Beverley and Wesley - from the Pilot episode I think. And that writing I think is the menu to that Parisienne restraunt mimiced in "We'll Always Have Paris".
And that Academy Seal has MMCLXI - 2161 isn't it?
Posted by Phoenix (Member # 966) on :
quote:Originally posted by AndrewR: And that Academy Seal has MMCLXI - 2161 isn't it?
Yes. Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
That piece of writing is actually an invitation to Jack and Beverly's wedding.
Posted by Phoenix (Member # 966) on :
Is there any canonical evidence regarding the dating system in Star Trek, and whether they use day-month-year or month-day-year?
i.e. is "10-11-2161" 10th November or 11th October?
(I will ignore any "Star Trek is American and so is this because I say so" arguments )
Posted by Ryan McReynolds (Member # 28) on :
Well, everytime somebody says a date in long form, it's always month-day-year, so presumably the short form is that way, too. I'm American, and I think that's stupid.
Posted by Phoenix (Member # 966) on :
Lots of people in Britain say January 1st 2003 but we all still use the sensible short system.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
And I heard that the US navy actually uses the 21/1/02 not 1/21/02. Which is even more strange.
Does it give the names of Jack and Beverly's parents on the wedding invitation?
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Concerning the date... well, I suppose in this case we could use the author's intention. Since the artists are American, they probably created it using the American system, namely month-day-year. So it'd be October 11, 2161.
Posted by Phoenix (Member # 966) on :
quote:Originally posted by MinutiaeMan: Concerning the date... well, I suppose in this case we could use the author's intention. Since the artists are American, they probably created it using the American system, namely month-day-year. So it'd be October 11, 2161.
That's the kind of explanation I was trying to avoid.
I don't really care about the intentions of the artist. Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
Concerning the habitability of the Alpha Centauri system; wasn't there a reference to Proxima (Alpha Centauri C) in "Starship Mine"? I believe a maintenance yard was said to have been operating around Proxima at the time.
While it's certainly possible that Starfleet built a starship maintenance facility in the middle of nowhere it makes more sense to say that it was built in orbit around some form of planet. It needn't be a M-Class planet to be colonised because remember that there are also settlements on Mars, Luna and supposedly even Pluto! It seams to be quite firmly established that even in the 22nd century Humans are perfectly capable of building self sufficient habitats.
Then there is of course a mention on DS9 (which might have already been mentioned) in which Alpha Centauri is said to be under threat in one of the Dominion War episodes.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"Reply to SOL-10102910291029.89191029"
Wow. Twenty-fourth century phone numbers are a bitch...
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
Not to mention "Zefram Cochrane, from Alpha Centauri?" and the countless speculations made by fandom which probably were in the back of a few behind-the-scenes people's heads.
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
quote:Originally posted by AndrewR: Does it give the names of Jack and Beverly's parents on the wedding invitation?
Its kind of hard to read, but here is what I can make from the wedding invitation:
quote:
Rachel(?) & Paul Howard Announce the Wedding of their Daughter
Beverly S. Howard to Jack R. Crusher
C(?) on R(?) of Tycho Center(?), Luna
July 20th, 234?
(?)
Reception at P(?) Inn(?)
Copernicus City, Luna, Sol
------------------------------------------
RSVP by July (?), 234?
Or thereabouts Posted by BJ_O (Member # 858) on :
quote: And I heard that the US navy actually uses the 21/1/02 not 1/21/02. Which is even more strange.
Actually, when I worked on the Super Hornet program, most of the official stuff from the military was in the form YY/MM/DD, which would make your example 02/01/21. Sometimes it was even written as 2002/01/21. Things can get confusing really quickly. That's why I usually write out the month and a four-digit year.
B.J.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Thanks FG.
Interesting. Some more 'official' names for people's 'encyclopaedeaic sites'?
I wonder what Beverly's middle name is?
Susan? What was her Grandmother's name?
Actually what characters do we know of that we know their middle names - if any?
Was Wesley - Wesley Eugene?
We have Miles Edward O'Brien Benjamin Lafayette Sisko James Tiberius Kirk Julian Subatoi Bashir Thomas Eugene Paris Keiko Ishikawa O'Brien (sort of a cheat) B'Elanna L. Torres Beverly S. Crusher nee Howard Pavel Andreovich SP? Chekov Leonard H. McCoy (Son of David) Quark son of Keldar William Thomas Riker NFN NMN Data Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
Wasn't it Leonard Horatio McCoy?
Posted by Ryan McReynolds (Member # 28) on :
Only in fandom.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Horatio I'd guess it'd be something a little less outlandish - like Harry/Harold or Henry maybe his grandfather's name?
Henry David Leonard
Henry McCoy! LOL! Hank McCoy - all blue fuzz? Extra-intelligent!?! Posted by SoundEffect (Member # 926) on :
quote:Originally posted by AndrewR: I wonder what Beverly's middle name is?
Susan? What was her Grandmother's name?
I believe from "Conundrum" her file listed it as Beverly C. Crusher. At the time I took it to be the real actress' name: before 'Gates' McFadden she was known as Cheryl McFadden.
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
quote:I believe from "Conundrum" her file listed it as Beverly C. Crusher.
That is correct. And her parents are Paul and Isabel Howard. Wesley's name is Wesley R. Crusher.
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
i think a 70s manual had Christopher Robin Pike, although a novel has Christopher Richard Pike.
In Peter David's corner of the universe, Riker has two middle names, to cover for one of his early novels' 'William Thelonius Riker' fuckup
no word on the T in Robert T April, i'd hope it wasn't Tiberius though.
is it Wesley Rod Crusher?
btw, Andreievich
Posted by SoundEffect (Member # 926) on :
quote:Originally posted by CaptainMike: is it Wesley Rod Crusher?
Actually, probably more like Richard after his grandfather.
Wesley's dad is Jack Richard Crusher
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
"Dick" Crusher? Jack "Dick" Crusher? It's gettin' a bit strange around here....
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
I simply have to express my profound astonishment as to Picard's scrapbook actually being a carefully constructed and realistic prop instead of one huge in-joke clusterfuck.
The stuff on Alpha Centauri and the Founding Five is interesting in the extreme. And a fan of some really nerdy, almost Flareish breed must have been involved in the writing of all this stuff.
The little slip-up about Battle of Maxia could be easily forgiven: perhaps the recognition was only awarded after "The Battle", retroactively referring to the date and site of the battle?
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
Why did I do this? I don't know. But if anyone can identify those last four words...
Posted by Phoenix (Member # 966) on :
I think the first one may be "irony" and the last two "later fracas", but I can't be sure.
The second word is harder. "emotive" makes sense, considering what seems to be a reference to an argument later on, but seems to be too short, almost as if it is spelt "emmotive". "elusive" doesn't seem to work because there would be a bit sticking up from the "l", and there doesn't appear to be one. Anyway, I am pretty sure it ends in "tive".
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
That's very cool.
Now if we can get those words write - you should send of a copy to Berman and Braga saying it's STRAIGHT from Picard's scrap book. Maybe they'll have a little memory jog about the Romulan War etc.
Posted by Phoenix (Member # 966) on :
quote:Originally posted by AndrewR: That's very cool.
Now if we can get those words write - you should send of a copy to Berman and Braga saying it's STRAIGHT from Picard's scrap book. Maybe they'll have a little memory jog about the Romulan War etc.
They'd send the Paramount Marines to wipe us out, along with Flare and all our websites, in case anyone finds out they don't care about the Romulan War, and would rather have guns, new aliens and almost-naked Vulcans than continuity and professionalism. Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
Thanks.. that seems to fit. Now only one word to go, and something like "emotive" seems to be the best guess.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Hopefully, none of this will be contradicted by ENT canon any time soon...
Interesting tidbit we've always suspected: the Council President and VP are actually Ambassadors from the member worlds. Or at least former Ambassadors. Are the Council Members considered Ambassadors as well? Were there more CMs there to this meeting beyond the five Ambassadors?
The writer clearly knows how to avoid saying too much on controversial subjects, like how the war *really* affected the founding of the UFP - was it the cause, or an obstacle to be gotten out of the way?
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Phoenix (Member # 966) on :
I think the council members are probably Ambassadors, which I suppose would make Lwaxana and Sarek members of the Council.
How are Federation Ambassadors referred to in the episodes? Are they "the Vulcan Ambassador", say, which could mean "Vulcan Council Member", or are they something else?
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Your AD here: Call 1-800 DUB-POST.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I'd think that the member world represenatives represent their populations and in turn elect the Council and the President from their number. Nobody in their right mind would allow that psycho Lwaxana be on the Council.
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
There was a little website out there with the three confusing types of Ambassadors. It gave an example of the different meanings of "Vulcan Ambassador":
- Vulcan Ambassador to the Council, in other words, a Council Member - Vulcan Ambassador representing Vulcan on other planet (be it Federation or otherwise). - An Ambassador (for the Federation) who happens to be of the Vulcan race.
I think it makes sense. it could get even more complicated if every member of the Federation uses different titles for it's representative. Earth might have Council Members, Vulcan may have Ambassadors and Aaamazzaria might have Bbzzzzraaaatans.
Posted by Phoenix (Member # 966) on :
I don't see why Vulcan would be represented on another planet, as it's in the Federation. Wouldn't that be kind of like having an Ambassador for Texas?
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
Or maybe it's like having an ambassador to the UN and Canada.
Posted by Phoenix (Member # 966) on :
quote:Originally posted by Spike: Or maybe it's like having an ambassador to the UN and Canada.
But Canada is autonomous, and Federation members (as we see for Earth in Homefront/Paradise Lost) aren't.
Would the Klingons have 151 Ambassadors from the Federation, one from each member world and a Federation Ambassador? Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
I doubt there'd be ambassadors from EACH WORLD to all of the other non-Federation powers.... but it would make some sense for Federation members to send Ambassadors to each other. After all, the Federation member worlds have been portrayed as more autonomous than the several States in the U.S....
Alternatively, "Ambassador" could be an honorific and a holdover from the pre-Federation days, just when the Federation was founded? I'm not sure I like that idea, though -- especially because there were LOTS of Ambassadors (and only ambassadors) in "Journey to Babel."
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
quote: Interesting tidbit we've always suspected: the Council President and VP are actually Ambassadors from the member worlds.
One of my largest pet peeves in Star Trek, and more than enough reason, for me personally, to want to ignore the whole thing.
That is, the article.
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
quote:Originally posted by Phoenix: I think the council members are probably Ambassadors, which I suppose would make Lwaxana and Sarek members of the Council.
How are Federation Ambassadors referred to in the episodes? Are they "the Vulcan Ambassador", say, which could mean "Vulcan Council Member", or are they something else?
Based on "Journey to Babel" it would seem that Ambassadors double as representatives as well; casting votes on admittance into the Federation, such as a US Representative may, whilst holding the title Ambassador, such as Sarek, Tav, et. al. did in that case.
Posted by Ryan McReynolds (Member # 28) on :
It may well be that the Council's full title is "United Federation of Planets Council of Ambassadors" or something...
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
I think the idea that there are various types of Ambassadors works well.
You'd have to have Federation Council Members (ambassadors) from each world to sit on the council.
You'd have to have consulates on each Federation world - or like in some countries on Earth now, there might be one consulate that covers a few countries. So on Benzar, they might have an Andorian consulate that might also cover Troyian's and Elasians and Arcadians.
Then you'd have your ambassadors to extra-Federation governments. You'd have your Federation Ambassador to the Klingon Empire (or maybe an entourage - but at least one senior ambassador). They could be of any race from the Federation.
Posted by Masao (Member # 232) on :
Nice work, Harry. My guess for the word before "negotiations" is "contentious."
Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :
I vote "tumultuous."
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Something that I recall someone (somewhere, maybe not at Flare) pointing out is that in the 650+ hours of Star Trek out there, I don't think that the word "democracy" has been mentioned once in reference to the Federation system of government.
The closest I can recall is President Jaresh-Inyo commenting on his selection for the post... but the context of that conversation seemed to imply that he was chosen by a small number of people -- the Federation Council, for example.
And it's not that unusual an idea. After all, the UN Secretary General is chosen by the Security Council, rather than holding world-wide elections. Perhaps, considering the relative disparity of cultures in the early years (even in ENT's universe rather than some speculative fandom history) there would not be enough commonality on the "grassroots" level to make universal population-level presidential elections a practical matter.
'Course, the same could be said of the US elections in 1800. Any History student could tell you how that turned out... Posted by Ryan McReynolds (Member # 28) on :
Or 2000.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Well, the analogy to the 1800 election is because of the serious disorganization at the time. After the popular elections, all of the various states had different times to hold the meetings of their electoral college voters, and so the final votes were trickling in over a month or more. Then, after that, the electoral votes were inconclusive -- the famous electoral tie between Jefferson and Burr, which had to be broken by the House of Representatives... which did so only after 40+ deadlocks.
The election of 2000 was nothing more than bureaucratic confusion by comparison, IMO. Posted by Ryan McReynolds (Member # 28) on :
I was actually referring to the leader being chosen by an unelected body, but that doesn't flow from your last sentence and it was a tired joke, anyway. So ignore me. Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Janeway said something about her ship not being a democracy at one stage - yes I know - not exactly the structure of the Federation - but just a mention of 'democracy'! Posted by Hunter (Member # 611) on :
Well there may have not been any mention of democracy but in Insurrection Ru'afo does a his screed before killing Dougherty hew mention that public opnion changeing the mind of the Council, so presumbly their elected, cos there is nothing like the threat of not bieng reclected to change a politicans mind.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
I believe Martok once told Worf that he had spent too much time with "...this democratic rabble".
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
I thought that just had to do with all the paperwork he had being "Supreme Commander" and not just a warrior anymore...
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
Correction it was actually Kor in "Once More Unto the Breach".
WORF: It is an unworthy reason to bar a man from serving the Empire.
KOR: Worf, you've been living among this democratic rabble for too long. I know your bloodline...
That's a pretty clear indication that the Federation is a democracy. Which kind of democracy is another question entirely.
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
Well, technically the term 'democratic' means something like 'equality for the people' which seems to be the philosophy of the Federation as it is, being that hunger, poverty, the need to acquire wealth and whatnot has been for the most part abolished (at least on Earth and other higher echelon worlds in the Federation). So maybe the use of 'democratic' is moreso social than policital considering that Pres. Jaresh Inyo did say he was nominated(?) for his position despite not seeking it....
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
and possibly, Kor was also speaking of the Klingon Empire's move towards equal rule as the class system that made Kor a noble and Martok a commoner became obsolete. Kor could have been taling to Worf not as a representative of the Federation, but as a Klingon who was familiar with the changing face of Klingon social heirarchy
Posted by Ryan McReynolds (Member # 28) on :
The Federation may be a semidemocratic republic. Clearly, it is a republic in that the members of the Council act as representatives for their people's ostensible interests. However, if the Federation doesn't really care about local governments, maybe each planet is free to do what they want. So, some planets are democracies (direct or representative). Some are monarchies, some are oligarchies, some are theocracies, anarchies, social anarchies, plutocracies, meritocracies, etc. I would expect the only truly "forbidden" government in the Federation is any that acts against its people. Pretty much like the UN, only with huevos and a side of chutzpah.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Don't forget that even such wonderful places as North Korea call themselves democracies of a sort. Why else would their official title be "Democratic People's Republic of Korea"?
I agree, though -- there's got to be some form of democracy in the Federation. The members of the Council are almost certainly elected; maybe it's just the President who's chosen by the Council in an indirect democracy instead?
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
Could be; certainly seems easier than getting the entire planetary population to vote for candidates for just one or two places on the coulncil.
As to 'local' governments, I would've thought the Federation would have certain standards as regards rights and extent of democracy ie a constitutional monarchy would be accepted but an autocratic system would be required to reform to certain levels of political participation/civil rights etc. before membership is granted.
Posted by Phoenix (Member # 966) on :
How do we even know that there are local governments? Earth certainly doesn't seem to have one.
And we know so little about how the Federation works it could be that an outgoing Council Members appoints their successor for all we know.
Lwaxana for one seems to have been appointed purely for her aristocratic background, and she seems to be a Council Member (she is not, to my knowledge, called "Betazoid Ambassador to X", but merely "the Betazoid Ambassador", which suggests she is a CM. Of course I'd have to see some transcripts to be sure).
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
Once all is said and done, isn't the Federation simply that...a federation or, for a lack of better term, a confederation? (Both of which terms I will toss around as follows.)
The method to my madness goes:
Seeing as each planet has its own government and governmental types, each most likely of a different nature, they remain or retain their own identities (such as in cases of internal affairs, self defense) yet also come together as a whole in their function as the identity of the Federation, united for a common purpose. I'm not huge on politics, but isn't Australia organized in the fashion of a federation?
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
Only in the sense that the US is- all your states have their own little ways of doing things, haven't they? Hasn't one got a unicameral legislature?
Posted by Phoenix (Member # 966) on :
quote:Originally posted by Futurama Guy: Once all is said and done, isn't the Federation simply that...a federation or, for a lack of better term, a confederation? (Both of which terms I will toss around as follows.)
What a nation calls itself and what it is can be two completely different things.
And all a "Federation" has to be is a group of things (in this case, planets).
We have never seen individual governments on UFP member worlds, and in fact we have seen the UFP running a planet directly, with no mention of any planetary authority.
This suggests to me that the planets do not have individual governments.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"Well, technically the term 'democratic' means something like 'equality for the people'..."
Actually, it means more along the lines of "rule by the populace".
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
quote:Originally posted by TSN:
"Well, technically the term 'democratic' means something like 'equality for the people'..."
Actually, it means more along the lines of "rule by the populace".
Both definitions I used for reference for the sake of my arguement moreless said: "favoring social equality"
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
How do we even know that there are local governments? Earth certainly doesn't seem to have one.
Uh-uh. Ain't no way that an organization that big could have no local governments. Otherwise you'd have the Federation council deciding the speed limits in residential neighborhoods on Andor. They have better things to do.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
I've just found mention of a tidbit that throws some confusion on the issue of ambassadors...
Kor was appointed as Ambassador to Vulcan in 2370.
Whoops!
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
quote:Originally posted by MinutiaeMan: I've just found mention of a tidbit that throws some confusion on the issue of ambassadors...
Kor was appointed as Ambassador to Vulcan in 2370.
Whoops!
Yeah and a Tholian Ambassador was on DS9 and Earth. The Klingons may be allies but they're still a foreign power, I'm sure they have Embassies on most of the major Federation planets.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Well, how about this?
Most nations maintain a single main embassy in a foreign nation's capital, but they also set up consulates in various other important cities around the country. I'm not familiar enough with international diplomacy... do the people in charge of consulates also get the title of Ambassador?
Posted by Phoenix (Member # 966) on :
quote:Originally posted by Omega: How do we even know that there are local governments? Earth certainly doesn't seem to have one.
Uh-uh. Ain't no way that an organization that big could have no local governments. Otherwise you'd have the Federation council deciding the speed limits in residential neighborhoods on Andor. They have better things to do.
I meant local government in the sense of a government that actually has real power. I suspect Earth has something more like an English County Council than an American State Legislature and Governor.
And the people who are in charge of Consulates are called Consuls, not Ambassadors.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Hmm. To be literally accurate, "democratic" means "ruled by warrior councils".
"Demos" was the council of free men in yer typical enlightened Greek city-state. And to be a free man was to be a warrior.
A fitting description of what we see of the Federation, perhaps. Then again, perhaps Kor was referring to Bajorans when he spoke of democratic rabble?
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Phoenix (Member # 966) on :
quote:Originally posted by Timo: Hmm. To be literally accurate, "democratic" means "ruled by warrior councils".
"Demos" was the council of free men in yer typical enlightened Greek city-state. And to be a free man was to be a warrior.
Not quite. A citizen who was disabled, and who therefore couldn't fight, was still a citizen, and still had political rights.
"democracy" literally means "rule by the demos", and "demos" means either "the common people" or "all citizens" depending on the context.
It is true that citizens in Ancient Greece were always men, but that fact is not conveyed by the meaning of "demos".
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
quote:Originally posted by Futurama Guy: Once all is said and done, isn't the Federation simply that...a federation or, for a lack of better term, a confederation? (Both of which terms I will toss around as follows.)
The method to my madness goes:
Seeing as each planet has its own government and governmental types, each most likely of a different nature, they remain or retain their own identities (such as in cases of internal affairs, self defense) yet also come together as a whole in their function as the identity of the Federation, united for a common purpose. I'm not huge on politics, but isn't Australia organized in the fashion of a federation?
I'm not big on the politics either - but yes Australia is a Federation - well Federation of the states of Australia or the colonies occured on Jan 1, 1901. We became one country instead of a group of colonial states.
We are are officially the Commonwealth of Australia.
Each state has their own state-level governement and there is of course a Federal Government.
Our system of government borrowed parts from Britain and the US.
My brother'd know all this stuff.
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
I do not think there is any way that there could be no local government on planets; sure, their powers would be restricted by Federation laws and required standards but to try the central government of 150+ planets is simply too unwieldly.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Agreed. Like Bajor would still keep their own government etc. They would as a planet become part of the greater whole - contributing troops etc.
Posted by Masao (Member # 232) on :
From Errand of Mercy: Kor: You of the Federation, you are much like us. Kirk: We're nothing like you. We're a democratic body.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
Kor again! He's just brimming over with political tidbits...ok two...and one of them was actually Kirk. Still, go Kor!
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Blimey!
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
My crackpot theory:
Each planet is allowed it's own form of planetary government, as long as it abides to the Federation Constitution and it's principles (or perhaps they have to abide to some overall Federation Laws). And it is up to the individual Members to supply Council Members. The Bynars could collectively blip twice to vote, the Aaamazzarites might hold annual furniture-making races, and Vulcan might just appoint someone (explainging T'Pau being the only one EVARR! to turn down a seat on the Council).
I think you could vaguely compare it to what the European Union wants to be. Planets are still 'sovereign' entities, and can pursue their own goals, but they're united in a Federation for trade, mutual protection, mutual scientific development and other niceties. Some worlds (most obviously the early members like Earth and Vulcan) might be more involved than others.
Then there's the colonies. In TOS (and in the other series as well), they looked as good as autonomous...
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Here's something I found interesting and perhaps relavant to the discussion: Combine and Conquer, from Wired, about the political, uh, "space" of the European Union.
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
but here is the text version of 'em. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)