As a matter of interest I rediscovered a few pictures including some concept art from Phase II in an old book, and site scanned them to put them on my site.
Not to belittle your efforts or anything, but these images are included in "The Art of Star Trek", as well as "Star Trek Phase II" - both by Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stevens. Kewel pics, still.
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
hey, i wasnt willing to bend the spine of my books to scan them.. i knew if i waited long enough, someone would do it for me...
yoink.. and thanks
Posted by The Red Admiral (Member # 602) on :
You're welcome. I haven't actually got 'The Art of Star Trek', nor 'Phase II'. These came from 'The Lost Voyages' book.
Posted by Kazeite (Member # 970) on :
Nice. I especially like captain's chair design Posted by Triton (Member # 1043) on :
The Lost Voyages? Was this a volume in the series of "unauthorized" Trek books that came out in the early 1990s written by James Van Hise, Edward Gross, or Mark Altman?
Is the book interesting or enlightening? I just found the Star Trek: Phase II book at a used bookstore a couple of days ago and I am finding it pretty interesting and entertaining. I espacially like the Ralph McQuarrie and Ken Adam concept art. I didn't know that the designer of the early James Bond films contributed to Star Trek.
By the way, does anybody know if anyone has created a web site to document the storylines or characters in the unfilmed Star Trek scripts that Paramount commissioned?
P.S. Please continue to share the concept art from the unproduced features when you see it. Its really nice to see how the vision of Trek has changed over the years.
Also, calling all you old timers out there! Please feel free to share any information or images from the long out-of print Starlogs and fanzines that you may have in your collections. I have been looking in used bookshops and comic book stores for this material, but a couple decades on, its just really tough to find.
Posted by The Red Admiral (Member # 602) on :
'The Lost Voyages of Trek' book is by Edward Gross and Mark A. Altman, and was published (in the UK) by Boxtree in 1995. It details many unfilmed stories from TOS to TNG, and several alternate storylines and endings to the movies.
Thanks a lot for the information about the book. looks like a another one I need to look for when I browse the used book shops.
Thanks also for the link to your Web site, some publicity photos I haven't seen before.
Oh, and I must say that I am glad to see that your site has returned. Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
I think you have something on your nose...
Posted by Triton (Member # 1043) on :
Oh, thanks, I didn't think it showed. Have a handkerchief handy? Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
I have some old magazines with Phase 2 stuff in it, including the reverse-angle of the rec room and some behind the scenes photos of the sets under construction. I'll try to dig them out and scan them.
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
THEY MADE SOME INTO NEXT GENERATION EPISODES
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
"My cat's breath smells like cat food."
Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
Here's a somewhat rarer pic of modelmaker Don Loos working on the Phase 2 Enterprise model. You can plainly see that he's got the portside half of the secondary hull here. It also shows you how small the Phase 2 model was going to be (about 4 feet long).
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
actually i think thats the deck 2/3 tower.. ive seen pictures of the unused model that were a much larger construct..
Posted by Griffworks (Member # 1014) on :
Well, either the pic is mislabled or that really is the secondary hull. If that's going to be a 4ft model, that would make it off-scale, regardless. Imagine, if that were the "deck 2/3 tower" this would put that model somewhere close to the 11ft studio model of the TOS 'E'. Of course, if that's the secondary hull, that would put the model closer to 7ft, which is what the Refit 'E' studio model was, IIRC.
:shrug: I'd say it's mislabeled for the length of the model, regardless.
Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :
Wow. That captain's chair is something else. Looks like the kind of chair Austin Powers would have in his swinger's bedroom. Hmm... I guess that be perfect for Kirk, though.
Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
I've heard in most places that the refit Enterprise model was 9 feet long.
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
i dont have any documentation to back this up, except my own eyes.. The Smithsonian, 1992... i saw both the original Enterprise and the movie Enterprise hanging next to each other and the movie version was definitely a couple feet shorter..
BTW, the first Phase II model wasnt made into the movie E i dont think.. i believe it was left in its half finished state once work stopped.. i think there were far too many structural differences for it to be made the movie model, aside from the fact that the movie model was more elaborately constructed..
Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
quote:Originally posted by CaptainMike: actually i think thats the deck 2/3 tower.. ive seen pictures of the unused model that were a much larger construct..
No, it's not the deck 2-3 bit. It's the portside half of the secondary hull. You can see the cutout under the hangar deck to the lower right of his hands. I have the original page here and I can see it plainly. As to the size, the Phase II model has been in several places described as being about 4 feet long, and the size secondary hull shown in that pic would fit a model of that scale. It was built by Don Loos of Brick Price Movie Miniatures.
The TMP Enterprise model was built to replace Don Loos' model when the Phase II became TMP. It was built by Magicam, and is about 7 feet long.
Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
Damned double-post!
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
i'm a little confused, cuz ive seen other pics of the unfinished ent phase2 and it seems to be much longer than youre describing.. i think that photo is in error or hes building a different model than the one were thinking of
So now we have first pilot version, second pilot version, production version, model kit version, phase II version, pre-TMP version, TMP version, aaand "Booby Trap" version.
Did I missed any? Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
Apparently, the "Neutral Zone" (TNG) kitbash was different from the "Booby Trap" version Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
quote:Originally posted by CaptainMike: i'm a little confused, cuz ive seen other pics of the unfinished ent phase2 and it seems to be much longer than youre describing.. i think that photo is in error or hes building a different model than the one were thinking of
I've seen those pix, and you can't make any meaningful determinations of scale from it because there are no objects close to the model.
As to that hull being off-scale for a four footer, that's not true. If ol Don Loos forearm is ye olde average cubit long (about 18 inches), based on that pic that hull would be about 21-24 inches long, which would be consistent with a model of slightly over foot in length.
Pages 70-71 of The Phase II book contains other pictures of the Phase II model and the drydock for it, and to my eye that dock looks about six feet long and about three to four feet wide. This is based upon a human figure in one of the pictures, and the hexagoal lighting units on each side of the dock, two of which were reused in the TMP drydock (on arms). These provide a very clear scale reference for both models and confirm that the Phase II model was smaller than the seven foot TMP one. In fact, the Phase II dock is about five of these lighting units high, and the TMP dock is more than seven, again pointing to the Phase II model being smaller.
Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
Oh, and then there's the Brick Price 22 incher, which appears have to have built for Phase II and modified for use in TMP (for long shots). I have a video which shows that model pretty well...I'll do some captures from it if I can.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
quote:Originally posted by Harry: Apparently, the "Neutral Zone" (TNG) kitbash was different from the "Booby Trap" version
Pic?
Posted by Starship Freak (Member # 293) on :
Yup, it�s different alright. I posted it on my page a long time ago, actually..
Checkout my Constitution-refit page, ok?
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
that is a desk behind the model.. those are desk drawers.. this model is a lot bigger than four feet methinks..
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
I don't really see why. The "table" on which the model rests could be much higher from the floor than the desk on the background, and the model not that much different in size from the one on the far background.
What items rest on the foreground "table", at the right end? An ashtray or pen holder? Two cigarettes, pens, matches?
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
quote:Originally posted by CaptainMike: that is a desk behind the model.. those are desk drawers.. this model is a lot bigger than four feet methinks..
As to the desk with drawers, a) how far away is it, and b) what kind of lens was the picture shot with?
One big problem with trying to determine the sizes of these minatures is that people who worked on the films "guesstimate" the sizes. I've heard the TMP model referred to as being anywhere from six to 10 feet long (it's closer to seven). Based on the other pix I've seen of the Phase II model, I'd estimate it's length at four to five feet. The pictures of Loos working on what is very plainly the secondary hull convinces me this is right. And given TV budgets it would make no sense for a 4 foot model and a somewhat larger (say six foot) model to be built.
Also, if the model was a lot bigger than four feet I doubt the seven foot TMP model would have been built, as it's been stated a lot of places that the Phase II model was too small for motion picture purposes (heck, Doug Trumbull thought the TMP model was too small).
When I get home from work I'll scan the pictures of the Phase II model and the drydock built for it. I'll also ask Andy Probert about it, as several of the photos of the Phase II model are credited as coming from his collection.
Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
well, that may very well be a secondary hull.. but is it the secondary hull?.. we don't really have any way of concluding that they are the same models.
Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
quote:Originally posted by CaptainMike: well, that may very well be a secondary hull.. but is it the secondary hull?.. we don't really have any way of concluding that they are the same models.
What else would it be? Don Loos building some other Enterprise for the helluvit?
I just re-read an interview with Richard Taylor of TMP where he says the Phase II model was "maybe four feet long".
I'm just going to scan those other pix from the Phase II book to establish just how small that model really was.
Posted by Jim NCC1701A (Member # 1021) on :
Hmm, this topic came up (courtesy of moi) on Starshipbuilder back in '01...
quote:Originally posted by Timo: What items rest on the foreground "table", at the right end? An ashtray or pen holder? Two cigarettes, pens, matches?
Not an ashtray - the gray item is the surround for the main sensor. The yellow item (not shown in that post but is there in the pic from The Art of Star Trek) is the hanger door assembly. Two cigarettes looks to be a single item - possibly an Allen key?
Regarding the 4 foot debate - over on SB Charles Adams said "I know someone who says he got hold of molds for a 4-foot Enterprise from that era, but he's not sure exactly what it was. I think it might have been this model but there's no way to tell for sure. "
Charles posted some pics (including this one), supposedly of the P2 model rebuilt to TMP specs
There are enough differences between that model and the P2 pic in this topic to make me question whether it is the same model. P2 dorsal is rounded at the front, 'TMP' isn't. P2 "cutouts" at the end of the warp pylons. Secondary hull windows are in different positions. Granted, those changes could've been done when TMP-ifying the model. Or it could be another model made from the same mold - apparently there were Enterprises at several Planet Hollyweirds
Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
Revisiting the size of the Phase II ship, I asked Andy Probert...
ME: I've read Richard Taylor and others say it was about 4 feet long. Do you know if this is correct?
ANDY: That sounds about right.
Following up on that, I scanned the images from the Phase II book that show the drydock and Enterprise models. The most relevant image is this one...
Phase II Drydock with Enteprise model within
Now, while the perspective on this picture may seem to make making accurate scaling difficult, some basic one point perspective rules can be used to figure things out. I started doing this, and I've got the relative height of the Enterprise to the dock "box" figured out (about half), but the tricky part is trying to figure the distance of the man at left and the table in the background. There are a few clues to this is the pic, but they're difficult to work with (the shadow of a dock thruster pod on the table, for instance, which in sunlight could be used to easily calculate a rough distance doesn't work with indoor lighting because the distance of the light from the object and the shadow plays tricks with the shadow's relative size).
The second pic shows the dock in an earlier stage of construction, minus the Enterprise. Again, there's a human figure in the background, but it's tough to get an accurate read on his position relative to the model.
This final pic was useful for gauging the scale of the hexagonal lighting units to the drydock, which was then used to figure out how big those were relative to the Enterprise model. These provided a handy benchmark because two of those same units were moved to the TMP drydock, and they appear to be roughly 36% smaller next to that ship. Taking 36% of 84" (seven feet) results in 54" or (very roughly) 4'6" for the Phase II model.
I'm pursuing one other line of inquiry regarding this model, and I'll let you know what I dig up.
P.S. I just noticed an interesting "whoops" on the Phase II ship, visible in all the pix I've seen of it. There's an "intercooler" of the outboard side of one nacelle, and on the INBOARD side of the other. It's like they used portside nacelles for both. Yikes!
[ June 25, 2003, 11:58 PM: Message edited by: MrNeutron ]
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
haha.. look, the particle fountain station..
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Hey - that 1st version of Drydock could be used for the construction or post-Pike refit of the Constitution!
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
quote:Originally posted by CaptainMike: haha.. look, the particle fountain station..
You mean those thruster thingies on the Spacedock? They look a bit different.
My pet theory is that the fountain (which was also seen as the Qualar surplus depot) is one of the STIII Spacedock studies.
Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
Note that you can see Lee Cole's transporter logo on the doors in both pix.
Check out the jumpers worn by the crew in those pics-- almost like a precursor to the TNG first-season uniforms. I wonder if any new uniform sketches were made before the decision was made to go with the TOS uniform design, which according to the Phase II books they had a backlog of.
Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
I scanned the layout drawings of the Phase II ship from the Star Trek Phase II book.
These match up pretty well with the Don Loos model seen under construction. I also suspect these may have been close to the basis for all the lit up artwork of the ship seen in the bridge set.
Posted by Austin Powers (Member # 250) on :
And regarding the "Particle Fountain": I would rather think they reused one of these "attachment pods" to the spacedock in one of the early TNG epsiodes as part of a station on a planet. Can't remember the episode at the moment but will look it up. Looked rather like a desert planet - Mars-like. Could have been the Ep "Home Soil".
Posted by machf (Member # 1233) on :
quote:Originally posted by Timo: I don't really see why. The "table" on which the model rests could be much higher from the floor than the desk on the background, and the model not that much different in size from the one on the far background.
Well, it occurs to me that you can always use the shadows for reference... draw lines which follow from the shadow on the table to the shadow on the curtain, and you'll get the height of the table. (Yes, I know this is an old topic, but I came across it when I was searching on data about Phase II the other day, after a really long time...)
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Now this has been dug out of the past!
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
If it's true that I've travelled to the past, I cannot risk giving them foreknowledge of what's to come. Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Holy fuck....does every new member have to dig up an aincent, played-out thread?
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
Destroy! Destroy!
Posted by Manticore (Member # 1227) on :
I haven't yet!
Posted by TheYoshinator (Member # 1066) on :
I thought I'd let you know... I believe Brick Price, who built the Phase II, built another _AFTER_ ST:TMP.
I noticed in a picture taken during construction that there on the wall behind it was a David Kimble ST:TMP Cutaway Poster.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
I think it'd be funny if a prerequisite to posting as a new member was to dig up and reply to an old thread! Posted by Kazeite (Member # 970) on :
For the record, when I was a new memeber I did not dig out any ancient threads. Posted by Pensive's Wetness (Member # 1203) on :
quote:Originally posted by Kazeite: For the record, when I was a new memeber I did not dig out any ancient threads.
well the only justification *i* would have in such a act....is recycling...
Posted by TheWoozle (Member # 929) on :
... by the way, was chief Obrian an officer?
Posted by Starship Salvage Ops (Member # 1212) on :
Not that it matters to many here, but those Phase II pictures were also used for information for the movie when it was in pre-production and during production in various magazines. It was not, that I recall, used on any promo poster for the movie when it was released. Please don't ask which magazines. It was 1976 or 1977 and I don't remember that far back in high school.
It shows two "Achates" LN-60 Mod 3 dilithium energized anti-matter linear warp drive units. (System Contractor: Vickers Engineering Group Ltd, Cumbria, Earth)
The production model had the LN-64B Mod 3 Linear Units (System Contractor: Cochrane Warp Dynamics, Minos Rijil, Alpha Centauri VII)
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by TheWoozle: ... by the way, was chief Obrian an officer?
Yes, but what is the length of the Defiant?
...and where are those WMD?
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Er, that would work if the original question was actually hard to answer. But, like the ever popular "Tomato: Fruit or Vegetable?", it isn't.
quote:Originally posted by TheWoozle: ... by the way, was chief Obrian an officer?
No.
See?
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
quote: It shows two "Achates" LN-60 Mod 3 dilithium energized anti-matter linear warp drive units. (System Contractor: Vickers Engineering Group Ltd, Cumbria, Earth)
The production model had the LN-64B Mod 3 Linear Units (System Contractor: Cochrane Warp Dynamics, Minos Rijil, Alpha Centauri VII)
No they don't.
Posted by Kazeite (Member # 970) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: Yes, but what is the length of the Defiant?
As it was conclusively proved, Defiant size is "small". Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :
Yes, its size is, but what about its length? B)
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
Short.
Posted by TheYoshinator (Member # 1066) on :
Jesus! Are you guys through Trolling?
How rude of you people!
If being an 'old member' has a pre-requisite of being obnoxious thread-stomping a**holes... then I'll glady stay a junior member myself.
Who the hell are you to stomp on a subject someone else wishes to discuss. If you don't have anything to add... and I do mean this in the nicest way possible... f*ck off!
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
Yoshinator,
Hi. Um, who the fuck are you to come onto this board and tell members who have been members for years to "fuck off"? I'm just wondering, because it seems really odd.
Oh, and yes, most of us 'old members' are, frankly, "obnoxious thread-stomping assholes", but its not a pre-requisite, just something we take fun in. Now, listen up, "asshole", you call THIS trolling? No, this has been in a spirit of fun and jest. Give it a few days until Lee sees your post, and then you'll really find out what happens when "Old Flare Members Turn Vicious".
It's not that we're a closed society by any means, just that like many businesses and social clubs, we haze the hell out of a lot of newbies (let's face it, it's fun!), especially newbies like you who go out of their way to attract our attention and our nature of being "obnoxious thread-stomping assholes."
In addition to being rude, I would also like to inform you that I'm a jackass and a serial deer slayer. You've been warned. Please have a nice day. Posted by Pensive's Wetness (Member # 1203) on :
quote:Originally posted by Malnurtured Snay: Yoshinator,
Hi. Um, who the fuck are you to come onto this board and tell members who have been members for years to "fuck off"? I'm just wondering, because it seems really odd.
Oh, and yes, most of us 'old members' are, frankly, "obnoxious thread-stomping assholes", but its not a pre-requisite, just something we take fun in. Now, listen up, "asshole", you call THIS trolling? No, this has been in a spirit of fun and jest. Give it a few days until Lee sees your post, and then you'll really find out what happens when "Old Flare Members Turn Vicious".
It's not that we're a closed society by any means, just that like many businesses and social clubs, we haze the hell out of a lot of newbies (let's face it, it's fun!), especially newbies like you who go out of their way to attract our attention and our nature of being "obnoxious thread-stomping assholes."
In addition to being rude, I would also like to inform you that I'm a jackass and a serial deer slayer. You've been warned. Please have a nice day.
....Well buttons and barn doors!...
Posted by Capped in Mic (Member # 709) on :
quote:Originally posted by TheYoshinator: If being an 'old member' has a pre-requisite of being obnoxious thread-stomping a**holes... then I'll glady stay a junior member myself.
And I will gladly stay an old member in that case. *stomp*
Posted by Manticore (Member # 1227) on :
Ah, newbie stamping, the pasttime of many a forum... Posted by Charles Capps (Member # 9) on :
Less stupidity, more discussion.
*cough*
Posted by TheYoshinator (Member # 1066) on :
quote:Originally posted by Charles Capps: Less stupidity, more discussion.
*cough*
I agree, I've said my peace and have no intention of adding more fuel to this flame.
Anywho... I located those pics I was referring to. I don't have a place to host them so if anyone wants to I wouldn't mind mailing them so that they can post'm here. It's only about worth of pics.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
quote:Originally posted by Kazeite:
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: Yes, but what is the length of the Defiant?
As it was conclusively proved, Defiant size is "small".
LOL - sorry to nit this - but wouldn't it be considered "little"? Well at least according to Riker. Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
quote:Originally posted by Malnurtured Snay: Yoshinator,
you'll really find out what happens when "Old Flare Members Turn Vicious".
Coming soon to Fox.
Posted by Ace (Member # 389) on :
To all members both new and old,
After the few years I've been a member (plus the added ones of being a lurker), I'd say this place is one of the brighter spots on the internet that I enjoy visiting. My advice to the new members is to understand that ultimately, this is just an internet discussion board and to not take everything so seriously such as "mean comments" from the older folks.
I do get annoyed when a newbie posts an old question and an older member simply responds with, "This again? " or something similar because, come on, give the kid a break. You could at least explain the search or do a search yourself and link the old discussion for him/her.
And a lot of these "older" members shouldn't be so smug. A lot of you are "older" because you just can't shut up. Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Exactly: Newbies, welcome aboard. Now shut the fuck up you fucking newbies.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by AndrewR:
quote:Originally posted by Malnurtured Snay: Yoshinator,
you'll really find out what happens when "Old Flare Members Turn Vicious".
Coming soon to Fox.
Best joke in ages.
Also, I hate the word "newbie". It's arrogant, snobbish, and denotes a smug sense of superiority. This is an internet message board. About Star Trek. No-one here has any right to feel smug about anything.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
" or something similar because, come on, give the kid a break. You could at least explain the search or do a search yourself and link the old discussion for him/her.