This is topic Random Musing: Why Roman Numerals? in forum General Trek at Flare Sci-Fi Forums.


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Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
 
For a topic of relatively shallow content for a change...

Why does "Star Trek" use Roman numerals to designate the different planets of a star system? Is there any particular reason why this is better than using Arabic notation? (Not that it's confusing at all for anyone who's educated beyond the third grade or so, but...)

I was just thinking about this because I was reading over a "Babylon 5" website, and realized that they always seem to use Arabic numbers for their notation. (Strange that I never noticed that before -- I've been watching B5 for five years!)
 

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Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
 
Isn't it the 'official' way of designating planets in our own system? Or have I really watched too much Star Trek?
 

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Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
 
Yeah, I wondered about that myself. But every astronomy reference I've found never bothers to mention any specific naming convention for planets.

The closest I've found was looking up star systems like Upsilon Andromedae in the Internet Stellar Database (Υ And has the biggest planetary system yet discovered, with three planets). According to that convention, they're naming the planets with lowercase letters, starting with "b" (and not "a" since "a" is probably the star).

*thinks*

Well, gee... maybe I should think of using Google more often.

A simple search on "astronomy naming 'extrasolar planets'" gave me a quick response. Turns out this question is more troublesome than we thought, and that no astronomers who would be responsible for naming real extrasolar planets that we found ever thought about it prior to the actual discovery. I found a quick Q&A on the subject at the Scientific American website.

It seems that the tendency in that article (dated 1999) was to use Arabic numbers to append to the name of the star around which they were found. So, it would probably then become "Υ And 1," "Υ And 2," and "Υ And 3."

So basically, now within "Star Trek" we're stuck with an archaic system that was invented by the writers (or even worse, some fan writer after the fact) because no one had ever came up with a convention before...

(Personally, the use of Roman numerals irks me to no end under most circumstances. Just call it a pet peeve.)
 

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Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
 
Um, this is Not Confined to Star Trek.
 

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Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
 
You might note that I did not exclude other stories from my statement. But since this is a "Star Trek" message board, I decided to make it the focus of the topic at hand.
 

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Posted by Mountain Man (Member # 1114) on :
 
The Roman numerals are used because they look cool. Like naming the Romulan Home Worlds Romulus and Remus. The whole thing is just for style no hidden meaning. Our planets are named for ancient gods and the like. The name of our own planet, in any language that I can think of,means dirt. Terra sounds nice though don't you think. Sol 3 or Sol III, which looks better on the screen.
 

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Posted by Mountain Man (Member # 1114) on :
 
After giving this question a little more thought I've come up with this. The Roman numeral is easier for the eye to pick up while taking a quick look at a screen. Since there are not likely to be too many planets for that numbering system,it would be used for planets. Asteroids are far too numerous to be counted by Roman numeral it would be too difficult to read the numbers quickly. So its a tactical thing.Recognition of different types of bodies in space by a quick glance at the data display.I've run across something similar but can't tell you any details at this time.
 

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Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
 
Cross-pollenization: In Dune, planets, when not being refered to by their proper names or nicknames, get the number in front of the star. 3 Delta Pavonis, for example.
 

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Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
 
That works fine, too. And is more systematic than Trek, since it "zooms out" from left to right, while "Gamma Hydra IV" zooms out from system to constellation and then back in to planet.

What we need ITRW is a system that gives the identities of

-the constellation (ITRW we won't be going far enough to lose these)
-the star
-the planet
-the moon

in easily distinguishable ways.

In Trek, the "Gamma Hromi B IIIc" gives each aspect a different notation: identity of system in Greek letter, constellation spelled out in Latin alphabet, multiple stars within system differentiated by uppercase Latin letter, planet identified by Roman numeral, moon by lowercase Latin letter. (Well, the moon thing is only witnessed in Mandel's Star Charts AFAIK, but still.) Arabic numerals sometimes stand in for the Greek letters, so it's IMHO nice that the planet numerals aren't Arabic. You won't confuse any aspect with another visually.

Timo Saloniemi
 

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Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
 

quote:

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Arabic numerals sometimes stand in for the Greek letters

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quote:

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at works fine, too. And is more systematic than Trek, since it "zooms out" from left to right, while "Gamma Hydra IV" zooms out from system to constellation and then back in to planet.

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It would be more like "(Gamma Hydra) IV" instead, with the two words representing the single star. Of course, that does ignore the original astronomical conventions, but oh well.
 

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Posted by Brian Whisenhunt (Member # 1095) on :
 
Perhaps we should have little "Hands" that hold up how many fingers the planet is. Since society in general seems to be degenerating to the use of glyphs anyway we could use the "Intergalaxial Symbols".....of course then there would be civilizations wanting to know how many tentacles to hold up.......
 

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Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Sol System:
Cross-pollenization: In Dune, planets, when not being refered to by their proper names or nicknames, get the number in front of the star. 3 Delta Pavonis, for example.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Reverend:
A small side note to this: in the Dune Universe it seams that the old roman system was used in the past but has since passed into obscurity. Case in point the planet Ix, there's a bit in GEoD where Leto finds it amusing that the inhabitants of that planet don't realise that the name of their homeworld means, literally '9'.
Since Ix just happens to be the 9th planet in it's system (I think.)

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Yeah, I remember reading that part in one of the books and laughing out loud and the silliness. 'Course, it's logical silliness... and stranger things have happened.
 

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Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
 
Quite belivable actually, I've heard a similar story about the nameing of the River Avon.

Also I belive Viking is just an rude Anglo Saxon word for pirate.
 

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Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
 
Not exactly.

http://www.algonet.se/~gwarner/etymology.htm
 

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Posted by Mountain Man (Member # 1114) on :
 
Viking means one who goes Viking. Basicly it means to go to sea to raid and plunder. Not sure of the exact origin now that you mention it. I've read a bit of the sagas.But reading translations gives little insight as to where the words originaly came from. I'll look it up.Ps just saw the above post that sounds right.I noticed that it didn't mention the VENDEL or VINDEL not sure of the spelling they were pre RUSS. The norse are a recent field of study for me. Facinating people.The root words seem to mean travel and later on since most travel was by sea the words meaning changed a bit to be more like pirate. though technicaly the raids took place on land rather than capturing ships at sea. Interesting. http://www.thetroth.com/resources/ourtroth/migrat.html

[ September 11, 2003, 07:50 PM: Message edited by: Mountain Man ]
 

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Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
 
Just thought I'd mention here... I'm watching a rerun from B5, early in the fourth season when the Vorlons are going postal across the galaxy. They scrolled a list of planets in the region during Ivanova's broadcast ("Please remain calm" is still a great line!). I didn't catch many of the names, but I did notice they listed "Kazomi VII" and "7 Lukantha."

I'm guessing that 7 Lukantha was more like 40 Eridani or Alpha Centauri, as the number of the star in the constellation. So it seems that "Babylon 5" does use the roman numeral system after all... at least, part of the time...
 

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Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
 
Not to mention the more than occasional reference to Epsilon III. Or, I suppose, 3. Hmm.
 

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Posted by Brian Whisenhunt (Member # 1095) on :
 
Well, in the vein (or vain) of this topic.... I would think that the term "Viking" would actually mean "Six Rulers" so possibly the "Xindi" are actually eleven races......hehe......
 

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