A little more help needed from you rich people and your DVD collections. In the TNG episode in which Worf is visited by a future version of Alexander, we see a knife bearing the crest of Duras. However the cleavage sisters recognise this as being anomalous since it features a symbol representing an as yet unborn (but apparently conceived) son of the butch and ugly one, of which only the not so butch and ugly one knows about. So, what I want to know is; which symbol represents which member of the house? I've colour coded it for ease of reference.
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
My guess would be the top or bottom ones for Duras himself, the opposite for the child, and the side ones for the sisters. But then, that's just an assumption based on symmetry, basically, what I'd do. And I must point out that you could say there are nine symbols there.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
I had the same thought but I want to be sure and I remember one of the sisters points out which is which in the episode.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Possibly the trio in green and bue represent matings that resulted in an offspring while the center three represent the mating that led to the heir....
Either that, or it's a prophecy that the sisters will die in a cheesy re-used VFX explosion.
[ January 16, 2004, 10:01 PM: Message edited by: Jason Abbadon ]
Posted by Kazeite (Member # 970) on :
As evidenced by script, "These markings represent the members of our house... This symbol represents our father... Myself, my sister... and this... represents her son."
So, this looks simple enough. Red or yellow is Duras sr., green and blue are Lursa and B'etor, and the last one is Lursa's child.
But... what about Toral? You know, son of Duras from Redemtion and Sword of Kahless? Which symbol represents him?
I would hypothetise that green means Lursa, blue means B'etor, and small thingies on those symbols represent their offspring. But that would mean that both sister have three kids both
So, what about different idea... look at the green symbol. The righmost thingy doesn't seem to be part of the main symbol, doesn't it? Almost like it was added later Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
I seem to have this odd memory engram of the blue and green symbols having actually been used in "Generations" for the sisters' knives... Perhaps "TNG:The Continuing Mission" or the TNG Companion might have some pictures. Must go and check.
Speculating on the meaning of the symbols, perhaps the single-piece one (red) stands for the leader of the House, and the two-piece one (yellow) for the second-in-command - that is, the male heir. The two three-piece symbols would be of equal "rank", except the one that is taller (blue) might denote the older sister - that is, Lursa, right?
...Although it would be slightly odd for the sisters to have three-piece "third rank" symbols even before the male heir is born... Or perhaps there once was a two-piece symbol for Toral. Or then for Duras, his dad (Jarod?) having the previous one-piece symbol.
Fortunes within a House must be fickle in any case, as sons and daughters are likely to be killed in battle, and fathers and mothers in challenges. If the symbols do denote "rank", they must be flexible in some manner.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Perhaps, in the future where the knife was made, Toral was dead, but Lursa and B'Etor were not. That would explain why he doesn't have a symbol.
Posted by Kazeite (Member # 970) on :
In that case Lursa and B'Etor would instantly declare knife fake, on the basis that it doesn't feature Torals symbol.
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
Assuming, of course, Toral's symbol would even be included, seeing as he was illegitimate.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
I just got comfirmation for the person who supplied the cap in the first place.
yellow: her father (Jar'od) blue: B'Etor green: Lursa red: Lursa's unborn son.
No mention of Duras or Toral.
So there it is. Looks like the crest only deals with the immediate geneology of the owner (or the owner's master, as the case may be.) Which means that this is not the symbol for House Duras itself. Darnit.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
Since it's always "so-and-so, son of whoever" with Klingons, I'd guess the father gets to be on there regardless of whether he's live or dead, plus any surviving offspring. Duras himself was dead by this ep, wasn't he? Perhaps he'd immediately get dropped from the family crest, or maybe dead members only get removed & replaced when there's a new family member to take their place?
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Well I was going to answer this in another thread - and did a google search looking for Duras' father's name - and got this page!
I remember people wondering why "The House of Duras" was named as such when Duras' Father was called Jarod. I'm guessing maybe it's a distant anscestor... or that Jarod's father was Duras.
Then there is the problem of Worf's grandfather being Worf - but his father's name is Mogh
Then there is the House of Martok. Presumably named after General Martok...
Anyway with that Sternbach released sketch - I assigned these names - but now that doesn't gel with what is on screen.
I think you have something there AndrewR. Remember that there is another Klingon from the 'Enterprise' era that went by the name Duras and gave Archer a hard time. He could be the originator of the house name.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Thinking about it some more... maybe the House names change to the current (MALE) 'head' of the family.
I.e. Duras, cause Jarod was dead. Not Lursa or B'Etor - women.
House of Martok yes, Even House of Quark... it didn't turn into House of Grilka cause she was a woman.
Problem - House of Mogh... the only thing I can think is - that WORF was on Earth/part of starfleet and either he wasn't a participating member of the house - or he didn't undertake some sort of rite that allowed him to take the house name from his father. Kurn didn't have a look in as not the eldest. Presumably - if it eventually became the "House of Worf" then it would end up being "The House of Alexander" although I'm sure there would have been something to stop a 1/4 Klingon from being head of a house (although there IS Quark).
Did we ever get what House B'Elanna was from - of course not because Voyager producers gave us hardly ANY background to their characters pre-Delta Quadrant (which was a deliberate descision on read back in Season 1 - which was their first big mistake) The better characters had histories that bascially started ON the show... The Doctor and Seven (Even Naiomi).
Anyway... presumably to get the house in your name - you have to be the direct male descendent of the house head. AND either you have to participate fully in the Klingon Empire or perform some sort of ritual to take the name from the deceased father.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
I doubt that there would be so many rigid rules. One would think that each family would decide for itself what it's called. There are probably traditions that are generally followed. But if the House of Ja'rod decide that Duras is their most prominent member and they want to be named after him, they can. Whereas the House of Mogh can continue to call themselves "House of Mogh", because they want to honor their prematurely deceased patriarch.
I'm sure that if some family really really insisted upon being called, say, the House of Pancakes, they could.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
Note; House Korzan was only renamed to 'House Quark' while the son of Keldar was married to Grilka, after she was granted special dispensation by Gowron, after she shouted abuse at said bartender, it was called House Grilka and was refered to as such in "Looking for par'Mac...".
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
To add to that, Kor was refered to in two different manners in the same episode:
1) "Kor, Son of Rynar" and 2) "the last son of the House of Kor".
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