I was just doing some reading, and got reminded of the alternate timeline that we saw in "The Visitor," when Jake grew old, the Federation gave DS9 to the Klingons, and ... oh yeah, there was apparently no major interstellar war that killed billions of people.
Now, I may be reading this wrong, but that episode seemed to portray DS9 as turning into a pretty useless outpost in later years, as if nothing of major importance happened.
And so I wonder... if, by saving Ben Sisko from a short eternity trapped in subspace, did Jake Sisko "cause" the Dominion War? Did Ben Sisko cause the Dominion War?
I can think of three specific instances where there was contact with the Dominion that could've had an impact:
First, in the "Homefront"/"Paradise Lost" two-parter. Yeah, the Changelings were already on Earth, but they could've left if the Federation suddenly lost its nerve there.
Second, in "To the Death". Working under the assumption that Sisko made a big impression on the Dominion that time, seeing as how Weyoun was there and all that, I think it could be considered to some extent.
Finally, this one's the biggest, but also more indirect: "Indiscretion." Just a few weeks or a month or so after Sisko's death, would Kira have been able to go off traipsing after the lost Ravinok? Maybe someone else would've gone instead, or Dukat went alone, or whatever. Essentially, Dukat doesn't lose his office in the Cardassian government, doesn't get humiliated by bringing Ziyal back, and thus isn't in a position to get tempted into joining the Dominion a year or so later.
I'm not saying that the conflict with the Dominion suddenly vanished once Sisko disappeared, but I wonder if he could really be looked on as a major driving force on the front line. Since the wormhole was the single possible point of contact, we could say that Sisko had unusually powerful influence on cross-wormhole communication and interaction as compared to a wide border like, say, the Romulan Neutral Zone. And so, the Federation backs down, traffic through the wormhole basically stops, and the Dominion pulls back from its plans to invade the entire Alpha Quadrant. After all, it was the Federation's intrusions in the Gamma Quadrant that provoked the Dominion's first attacks. (Yes, I know it was completely out of proportion, but it's still a causal chain no matter the reaction.)
So, what do you guys think? Do you hate temporal mechanics yet (again)? Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
The simplest solution is the best.
After assuming command of Deep Space Nine, the Klingon CO ordered a nice torpedo spread to collapse the entry of the wormhole.
No wormhole, no threat of a Dominion invasion.
Remember, Tahna Los tried to do the same thing with a Klingon-supplied explosive in "Past Prologue" and Sisko thought he WAS doing the same thing in "The Search pt. II", and he only had some runabout torpedoes ...
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Except, didn't they go into the wormhole after a few decades to try to get Sisko back?
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
No. But they may have used the Alpha Quadrant entrance to try to replicate the experiment, so maybe the Klingons collapsed the Gamma Quadrant entrance.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
The Dominion made an alliance with the KLingons while presuing a long term infiltration plan of their Empire.
Or the Dominion is not very threatened by the Klingons and war was postponed because of it....
Or the Prophets just eliminated any ships entering from the gamma side and allowed the Emissary's son's ship to enter.
Most Likely, the whole episode was orchestrated by the Prophets to show "The Sisko" what he has in Jake-o. A little moral lesson for their favorite son.
Posted by Saltah'na (Member # 33) on :
quote:Originally posted by Malnurtured Snay: Remember, Tahna Los tried to do the same thing with a Klingon-supplied explosive in "Past Prologue" and Sisko thought he WAS doing the same thing in "The Search pt. II", and he only had some runabout torpedoes ...
Yes, and I would have done it if it wasn't for that Kira B*tch....
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Jason is kinda on the track of what I was thinking. But there are just so many elements that were apparently already in play before then -- Martok had already been replaced with a Changeling and was goading for war with the Federation. (Actually, that would easily explain the taking-over-DS9 bit.)
I wonder if the Dominion just got really, really lucky in finding someone like Dukat who was desperate enough -- and arrogantly stupid enough -- to try to make a deal, and invite them in. Otherwise, maybe the Dominion was content to sit back, keep the Alpha Quadrant powers off balance, and make sure they didn't come through to the Gamma Quadrant?
That seems kinda contradictory, though... After all, that Vorta in "The Search" wasn't pleased when Sisko destroyed the wormhole in their simulation. They kinda gave their hand away there, making it clear that they didn't just want everyone off of their own backyard, they also wanted to take over everyone else's backyards, too.
So I guess either there was absolutely no mention of whatever Dominion War took place in this alternate timeline, or the Dominion eventually gave up for whatever reason.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
"Bitch".
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
And you're not even called "Tahna Los" anymore. Why you changed it to something that sounds like "sultana", though, I don't know.
Posted by Saltah'na (Member # 33) on :
I could change it back to the way it was before. I just don't bother.
Oh, the Saltah'na were the race that posessed the DS9 crew in Dramatis Personae. Besides, the "Tahna" part is somewhat similar, if not intact.
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
I don't know if he did it on purpose or not, but you'll notice that with the exception of an "o", and the addition on an "a", all Tahna has done is rearrange the letters of his name.
I'm not certain that the Defiant re-entered the wormhole in the future. I think the ship was just hanging off of DS9's bow taking their readings. Anyone wanna watch the episode to find out?
Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :
The Defiant didn't enter the wormhole because it was there to record the subspace inversion thingy from the outside. THEORY DESTROYED!
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
It's implied that there was never a conflict with the Dominion in that timeline, but I don't think we can rule it out. I haven't seen the episode in awhile, so I'd have to go check, but I think the only reference to the Dominion is when Jake says they talked the Klingons into letting them send some ships through the wormhole to test the waters "after all those yesrs" or something. There could've been a war of some kind between the time the Federation abandons the station and the time they come back to tinker with the wormhole. Jake just wouldn't have mentioned it to Melany because everyone would've known about it.
It's also possible that the War in that timeline was much different. Maybe the Klingons had 90% of their fleet guarding the entrance and just hammered anything that came through.
Many possibilities... but in the end, of course, everything worked out the way the Prophets wanted it to.
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
The jist of the story went (somewhat paraphrased, but 99% Readers Digest accurate ):
Sisko "disappeared" and the Bajorans viewed that as a sign from the Prophets and felt that the Federation was no longer able to protect them from the Klingons and so they signed something like a mutual protection pact with the Cardassians which did not settle too well with the Klingons and much of the stations population relocated. Over time tensions grew and Starfleet realized that DS9 would be at the front if all out war broke between the two so they agreed to hand DS9 over to the Klingons (during what would have been the 5th season).
It would be assumed that the Klingons were never too interested in exploring or entering the Gamma Quadrant, nor did they allow anyone to, as they were busy enough with the Cardassians and Federation and so on.
The evidence I found for this is as follows:
Fast-forward 20 years when Nog is a Commander and he is visiting with Jake in Louisiana.
So it would seem the Dominion had accomplished all they needed to keep the Alpha Quad unbalanced (as was the theme of the prior episode("WotW")) by pitting the Klingons against the Cardassians and the Federation against the Klingons.
Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :
Yup. Think about it: the biggest threat to the Dominion was the Klingon-Federation alliance. With Sisko removed, Dukat would never have fallen from grace, the Khitomer accords would never have been signed again (which thwarted the Dominion's year-long ploy to drive a wedge between them), the Dominion would never have gained a foothold in the AQ beyond the odd changeling here and there, so the war would never have happened either.
[ January 30, 2004, 09:28 AM: Message edited by: Cartman ]
Posted by WizArtist (Member # 1095) on :
So the biggest threat to the Dominion actually was Sisko.
For want of a nail the shoe was lost...
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
So, in that timeline, the Dominion would've been waiting for the unbalanced Alpha Quadrant to fall apart before coming through the wormhole and taking over.
Huh.... what do you know... it *does* fit.
Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :
...And all for the want of a horseshoe nail!
I do believe Franklin had it surrounded.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
We neveer heard what happened to the cardassians or Romulans in that timeline though and jusging from DS9's poor shape, the Klingons either werent doing so well themselves or no longer considered the Dominion a threat. mabye Changling Martok took over the Empire, made the Dominion seem to be a minor threat and had the Klingons wipe out the cardies and at least keep the Rommies on the defensive....
There's so much there that is unknown that the Founders could easily be dismantling the Alpha powers without direct military force.
In that future timeline, the Dominion War could very well be just over the horizon without the Alpha powers even knowing about it.
Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :
Maybe, but the fact that there hadn't been a war in fifty years (the Federation was alive and kicking, after all) suggests that the Dominion had bigger fish to fry in their own pond, were biding a LOT of time, or just rescinded their AQ excursion plans altogether. It's a flimsy inference, but still...
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Well, considering that by the time we saw DS9 again in that alternate timeline, it had already been fifty years -- so of course the station was going to look pretty run-down!
It seems to me that also, in part, the Federation lost a lot of its nerve since Sisko wasn't on the front lines pushing for some action or other -- why else would just Sisko's absence cause the station to be handed over to the Klingons?
I think that, despite the changes, as far as the Dominion was concerned it was a less radical road. Although the UFP and KE were probably fighting each other, it seems that neither of them would ever choose to join the Dominion voluntarily. Neither would the Romulans. The Cardassians certainly would've, but only at the instigation of an idiot like Dukat.
It seems to me that the Founders probably realized that they couldn't take the entire Alpha Quadrant by force. Storming through the wormhole to capture DS9 would leave them with a beachhead, and a clear supply line to bring in more troops and ships, but it would be one that would be difficult to defend, and their entire war effort would rely on the wormhole. The way it turned out in the "actual" show, they gained the Cardassian territories as a solid production base from which to launch a more widespread assault.
So, without Dukat, the Dominion would never have gotten any chance of a foothold, and so eventually settled for a stalemate once they realized they could keep the chaotic Solids on the far side, busy among themselves.
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
quote:Originally posted by MinutiaeMan: It seems to me that also, in part, the Federation lost a lot of its nerve since Sisko wasn't on the front lines pushing for some action or other -- why else would just Sisko's absence cause the station to be handed over to the Klingons?
Basically it went like this (all of which occurred between the beginning of what would have been alternate timeline DS9 Seasons 4 & 5)...: (Note: the red lines indicate different scenes containing pertinent lines.)
...followed by the aforementioned (20 years later): Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
We never saw what happened to Odo either: it's possible he went back to the Founders early and convinced them not to invade.
Strange to think that his love for Kira and the inspirational leadership of Sisko might have kept him on DS9 and ensured the war.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
Of course, that shouldn't be taken as a condemnation of Sisko. We don't know what a lack of a war would have done for the galaxy.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
True. For all we know, the Dominion might have just gone for the long-term destablisation of the Alpha Quadrant powers, and THEN invaded, when they were week. By mining the wormhole (and doing other things), Sisko forced them to fight before they were ready, which could have been one of the things that led them to defeat.
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
I'm not sure I agree. Sisko mined the wormhole yet despite that there seemed to be a massive Dominion fleet on the other side waiting to get through the whole time Dukat was working on dismantling it.
Granted there were no other Gamma Quad-based episodes for the last 56 shows - its just odd to think that during the whole time the Dominion was wrapped up in such a massive invasion/war there was no word of uprisings and/or Gamma Quad races taking advantage of Dominion still based in the Gamma Quad.
Seeing that they had so much committed to the Alpha Quad so much as to have the upperhand for most of the war, and that they lost 2800 of their ships in the wormhole, and held things together in the Gamman Quadrant - and sure Weyoun bitched about needing those ships in the Gamma Quad and whined when they were lost and whined when Dukat collapsed the wormhole - it nonetheless would seem that they were not overextending themselves for most of the war let alone the time they made their initial invasion.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
How would they hear about any uprisings? The only way to communicate with the Gamma Quadrant was to actually go there (since the destruction of the subspace relay) and no-one was doing that.
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
You know, I seriously doubt the Dominion would have sent those 3,000 ships through if they needed them that badly to maintain the stabiltiy of the gamma quadrant. Destroying an empire to win a battle is no victory. And IIRC, once they took that comet through the wormhole you could send signals easily, the relay station was just conveniently placed and under 'Fleet control. The Dominion could have had their own. So it's more of a question of where the Alpha-Dominion would have to be relative to the wormhole to communicate with the Gamma-Dominion.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
quote:Originally posted by PsyLiam: How would they hear about any uprisings? The only way to communicate with the Gamma Quadrant was to actually go there (since the destruction of the subspace relay) and no-one was doing that.
Actually, no. At the very least, the Dominion must've constructed a new relay. After all, the Female Changeling ordered their fleet to be contacted through the wormhole as soon as they destroyed the minefield.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
But that was shortly after DS9 had been taken over. The war went on much longer, with no convenient way of the Gamma-Dominion to talk to the Alpha-Dominion.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Still....I doubt there was any uprising on the gamma side of the Domion: the Founders wouldnt have sent anywhere close to half of their fleet into the Wormhole. THe Dominion had a long time to prepare for their eventual invasion before they decided to reveal their presence to the Federation.
Besides, with the exception of (mabye) one or two founders commanding the lost fleet, the Founders consider all those ships and crew expendable. That speaks of readily available rescources far greater that of the Federation.
Posted by Bond, James Bond (Member # 1127) on :
It might also tie into the alternate universe events of TNG "All Good Things..." as well. The Romulans were conquered by the Klingons and the Federation and Klingons were at odds despite some medical exchanges in that timeline. The uniforms were also the same but that doesn't really mean anything.
Perhaps the Martok Changeling convinced the High Council to invade the Romulan Empire as depicted in AGT... It wouldn't be that hard to convince the Klingons that the Romulans were under Changeling control given the alliance between the Tal' Shiar and Obsidian Order orchestrated by the Changelings. With the Cardassians, Romulans, and the Wormhole under Klingon control and the alliance between the Klingons and Federation gone, they saw no need to invade the Alpha Quadrant. It was the potential for an alliance between the races that scared the Dominion, not the thought of fighting them one on one.
The Klingons don't seem to have the obsessive need to explore like the Federation does and would not need to violate the Gamma Quadrant line in the sand drawn up by the Dominion so the Changelings might not consider them a threat like they would the Federation. They might wait and bide there time trying to control the Klingons from within.
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
Well, just because the uniforms are the same doesn't mean that Sisko "died" (as seen in "Visitor") in the AGT timeline. Since the accident was corrected, wouldn't Q have sent Picard 25-years into the corrected (as opposed to the "uncorrected") future?
Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :
Q sent Picard to A future, but not necessarily to THE future. He was fooling around with time to teach him a lesson, after all.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bond, James Bond: The Klingons don't seem to have the obsessive need to explore like the Federation does...
No, but they do seem like the type who would take such a blunt "do not come here" message as a challange, and try and invade.
Posted by WizArtist (Member # 1095) on :
So mark your good territory the "Iceland sector" and your bad territory the "Greenland sector" to fool those Klingons!
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Just make up a radiation and say that anyone going through the wormhole dies an honorless death from it. What are they gonna do, research it? Ever see a Klingon in a lab coat and pocket protector? Didint think so.
Posted by WizArtist (Member # 1095) on :
Well, I used to WORK with a guy that dressed as a Klingon. Had the ridge head and everything. He caused our mainframe to go down so I drew a cartoon of a klingon holding a blaster aimed at one of our modules that was all melted. The caption was "Lucky shot, sir!"
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
He didint dress that way at work did he? The line between being facinated by an intresting TV show and having a compulsive disorder tend to blur once you see fans dressed up at conventions, speaking in made up languages and expecting a response other than "back the fuck off".
Posted by WizArtist (Member # 1095) on :
Well, he used Halloween as an excuse to wear it to work. I told everyone that I was coming as the Invisible Man. They wouldn't be able to see or hear me, but they should go ahead and mark my timecard that I was there.
It was actually kind of funny that year. I came to the bank in my normal attire. The president of the bank came as Abraham Lincoln. So, I walked over to his table at lunch and introduced myself as John Wilkes Boothe and left. Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
You turned up to a fancy dress day in regular clothes?
Have you no fun in your body at all?
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: Ever see a Klingon in a lab coat and pocket protector? Did'nt think so.
Actually...there was a close call with that one Klingon scientist-chick (a la Capt. Garretts alter ego) who was studying the Ferengi metaphasic shield... Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Kinda...she seemed knowledgable if not particularly helpful to the research.
I hereby condemn you to the blackest alleys of Dis for making me recall that sorry episode. Man: the victim is alive all along! What a shock. really. He was also stealthy enough to fool Crusher, sneak out of the morgue and onto a shuttle (so much for Worf's raise, huh?)...
Ug.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
The whole thing with the Dominion is they saw disorder in the Alpha Quadrant and they wanted order...
Posted by WizArtist (Member # 1095) on :
quote:Originally posted by PsyLiam: You turned up to a fancy dress day in regular clothes?
Have you no fun in your body at all?
Did you NOT read the part of introducing myself to the Abe as John boy?
The problem was I didn't have the money to put together the costume I WOULD have worn.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Klingons have order? They dont even use utensils for pete's sake!
If all they wanted was order, they'd help the Borg wipe out the Alpha Quadrant.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by WizArtist:
The problem was I didn't have the money to put together the costume I WOULD have worn.
Something from Rocky Horror no doubt.
Posted by Bond, James Bond (Member # 1127) on :
quote:Originally posted by Malnurtured Snay:
Well, just because the uniforms are the same doesn't mean that Sisko "died" (as seen in "Visitor") in the AGT timeline. Since the accident was corrected, wouldn't Q have sent Picard 25-years into the corrected (as opposed to the "uncorrected") future?
I mentioned that the uniform connection was tenouis at best and was only an extra point connecting the two timelines. I'm not saying the AGT... future did come true since parts of it have obviously been changed (Deanna not being dead by now for example) but elements of that future have cropped up like the Negh'Var for instance and the hostilities between the Federation and Klingons in every future episode.
And Q was probably skewing elements of the future to mess with Picard anyway.
Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :
The line between being facinated by an intresting TV show and having a compulsive disorder tend to blur once you see fans dressed up at conventions, speaking in made up languages and expecting a response other than "back the fuck off".
Line? What line?
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
If you own a Star Trek costume, you've crossed the line.
In every way.
Posted by WizArtist (Member # 1095) on :
As a joke for our office Christmas party, I bought one of those NextGEn phaser toys that was put out about nine years ago just to see him desperately try and get it in the "Dirty Santa" game. I even put batteries in it so it would lite and make sound!
It was HILARIOUS.
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
I own a costume. It was my halloween outfit when I was ten. Does that count against me?
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
No....not unless you still wear that costume. Then it would definitely count against you.
....and you should probably do a little "spring cleaning" if you still have old stuff from when you were ten.
Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :
Yeah. It's not like you could frighten a lot of people in a ST uniform, anyway. Gag them, maybe, but not scare. B)
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I dont know....a fully grown man showing up on my doorstep wearing a star trek costume made to fit a ten year old frightens me terribly.
It's a Tarintino scene waiting to happen.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: Klingons have order? They dont even use utensils for pete's sake!
If all they wanted was order, they'd help the Borg wipe out the Alpha Quadrant.
It was explained in The Die Is Cast or The Adversary or something - the key aim of the Dominion is order... the solids are disorderly. I don't think they would appreciate the Borg as it would be difficult for them to control them. The Founders are basically control freaks.
Posted by Bond, James Bond (Member # 1127) on :
I wonder how the Dominion would percieve the Borg and vice versa?
They certainly have a lot in common what with the Great Link and the Collective, and there common desire to bring order to the galaxy.
I'm sure the Borg would try to assimilate them for there biological and technological distinctiveness at first but perhaps the Borg can't assimilate a Changeling. If they turned into a mist that would certainly render the Nanoprobes nearly useless. I would imagine Changelings must have control of there bodies down to a cellular level to manage such feats as turning into mist so maybe they could simply remove Nanoprobes from there bodies?
The Borg would no doubt assimilate many Vorta and Jem' Hadar and lay waste to any outposts they found but the Founders have proved to be pretty resilient at survival.
Could be that the Borg were the species of Solids that inspired the Changelings distrust and need for control over all Solids 2,000 years ago and made them create races of loyal servants and warriors.
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
Or, um, not.
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
I think it's time to retire this topic...
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
The ket to the Changelings' motives are that they want to bring *their* order to the galaxy... not just order in general.
We've had the "could a Changeling be assimilated" conversation before.
Posted by Bond, James Bond (Member # 1127) on :
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