Bastards.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
*sigh* Should'a known this was coming. I know it's gonna look cool, but there's no way in hell I'm going to buy that!
Posted by WizArtist II (Member # 1425) on :
It's GEORGE LUCAS's fault!
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
I wouldn't be against it if they got FX people who had worked on previous Trek series before. "In house", I don't get it.
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
Old news.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
quote:Originally posted by WizArtist II: It's GEORGE LUCAS's fault!
Well, to George's credit, he has finally gotten wise and decided to release the original SW trilogy in its original format. But yes.
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
You need an LJ-friendly RSS feed. I completely forgot/forget about your blog.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Derail: The Digital Bits has a moment in their coverage of this that reminds me of why I tried to write a nerdy takedown on a defunct media nerd blog.
quote:Unlike, say... the Star Wars films... the original versions of these episodes will always be preserved in GREAT remastered quality on DVD.
Always, huh? Digital media is crazy shortlived compared to earlier technologies like vegetable pigments smeared on cave walls, in terms of both physical and cultural durability. Who will have even heard of DVDs, beyond weird old people, in ten years? (Well, OK, maybe a lot of people, because the reverse question is, does anybody really want an HD-DVD or Blu-Ray player?) And if your DVDs have survived in your attic, has your player? (Moving the data off those physical disks is, of course, contra-MPAA and thus highly illegal.)
So, anyway, in summation: The Digital Bits - Naive in their promotion of a format or formats. (I read it every day, though.) Star Trek Shinier Edition - Potentially neat, especially given the Bits' suggestion of putting both versions on the disk; but I am ideologically opposed to this kind of revisionism I guess, so before I bought them I would have to fight somebody. Next-gen DVDs - totally lame.
Posted by Mikey T (Member # 144) on :
I guess I won't be buying an HD player...
Posted by Captain Boh (Member # 1282) on :
They may offer both versions. More money that way if people buy them both after all.
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
Well all I have is standard dvd player and that was mainly for the Star Wars DVDs. Itake it this blu-ray and hd crap won't play on it.
Posted by Wes (Member # 212) on :
Standard DVDs work on all Blue Ray and HD-DVD Drives. This is dramatically changes the way we will buy movies in the future, since movies will most likely be released in both Standard DVD and HD-DVD for the next 5 or so years. As long as optical discs are used to store movies, DVD, HD-DVD, and whatever future format will easily read your 20 year old DVDs.
Posted by Wes (Member # 212) on :
What's the problem? You can still see the old versions. If you don't wanna see the new ones, don't. Myself, I wont' buy them, but I'll definitely torrent them. -_-
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I think it's freakin' GREAT. Not only will it clean up a lot of distracting stock footage shots, it'll likely show us all the cool space battles we've speculated on forever and it'll introduce a whole new generation to TOS.
Spock's Brain will always suck though.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
When will these air?
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
quote:The episodes will begin airing on the more than 200 stations that own the rights to the weekend broadcast syndication window starting Sept. 16 (check local listings for station and dates).
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Sweeeet. Strange we have not heard anything (definitive) about this untill now. No screenshots available or anything! I wonder what can be done for [i]The Cage{/i] (or even if they'll air that)? Maybe they'll give the Talosians a "turtlehead" sticking out of their butt-heads...
I just want to see the Gorn and Orion ships...and the Planetkiller!
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
Now I wish I had television again. Alas.
Oh, wait. It'd be on at like 5 AM so as not to preempt FOOTBALL! AARRRRGH!!
Posted by Daniel Butler (Member # 1689) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: I think it's freakin' GREAT. Not only will it clean up a lot of distracting stock footage shots, it'll likely show us all the cool space battles we've speculated on forever and it'll introduce a whole new generation to TOS.
Spock's Brain will always suck though.
Awwww I hadn't thought of this - maybe it will fix some CGI muckups and help us rationalize away some of those "Wait isn't that the photon torpedo tube why are phaser beams coming out of it" type things.
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
quote:Space ship exteriors -- The space ship Enterprise, as well as other Starships, will be replaced with state of the art CGI-created ships. The new computer-generated Enterprise is based on the exact measurements of the original model, which now rests in the Smithsonian Institution in Washington, D.C.
Show opening -- The Enterprise and planets seen in the main title sequence will be redone, giving them depth and dimension for the first time.
Galaxy shots -- All the graphics of the galaxy, so frequently seen through the window on the Enterprise's bridge, will be redone.
Exteriors -- The battle scenes, planets and ships from other cultures (notably the Romulan Bird of Prey and Klingon Battle Cruisers) will be updated.
Background scenes -- Some of the iconic, yet flat, matte paintings used as backdrops for the strange, new worlds explored by the Enterprise crew will get a CGI face-lift, adding atmosphere and lighting.
Time to turn the Enterprise forum into a TOS forum!
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Hmm... this is either going to be very impressive, or very bad. I'll watch it, of course, but either way, when I finally scrounge up some money, I'd much rather purchase the original releases on DVD.
Posted by Johnny (Member # 878) on :
It sounds very promising, and considering Okuda's working on it, there should be a good amount of attention to detail when it comes to fixing little errors here and there(like that one shot where Scotty's phaser isn't firing). I was concerned about the CBS team not being as familiar with Trek as Zoic or Eden would have been, but there's a guy on the team who's posting on SFM, and he seems very confident.
If it turns out to be awful, the whole thing can be swept under the carpet and forgotten as everyone goes back to the original DVDs.
Posted by Wee Bairns (Member # 1324) on :
We may finally get designs for ships we never actually saw, from "Charlie X's" S.S.Antares (even if I love The Reverend's version) to the Orion ship in "Journey To Babel"... And imagine how the battles in "Balance of Terror", "The Doomsday Machine", and "The Ultimate Computer" might look..
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
Not to mention The Immunity Syndrome oh and let us not forget the countless times a non-corpeal alien is represented as a cloud or a bright light. Oh and the Tholians and thier ships and their web!
TOS retro-forum? Hmmm...
Posted by Captain Boh (Member # 1282) on :
quote:Originally posted by Johnny: It sounds very promising, and considering Okuda's working on it, there should be a good amount of attention to detail when it comes to fixing little errors here and there(like that one shot where Scotty's phaser isn't firing). I was concerned about the CBS team not being as familiar with Trek as Zoic or Eden would have been, but there's a guy on the team who's posting on SFM, and he seems very confident.
If it turns out to be awful, the whole thing can be swept under the carpet and forgotten as everyone goes back to the original DVDs.
I really shouldn't have gone to SFM to read that, now I feel like I suck.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
My only concern is that the VFX guys will get lazy - that they'll leave certain shots in because it's "good enough" for them.
All or nothing, I say. Bring it on!
Mark <-- Yes. New forum time.
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
Amen brother, the Star Wars DVDs were plagued by this. Though I say, let Kirk still shoot Greedo first.
Posted by Captain Boh (Member # 1282) on :
Its not really up to the guys who acctually do the work what stays and what goes though, so I don't think lazyness will really be a factor.
Cheapness maybe.
But in the case of a TV series rather than a movie series, stock footage can trim down the work alot.
Posted by Not Invented Here (Member # 1606) on :
If this is anything like the redone Red Dwarf episodes it won't be worth our time or their money. But there is the possibility that they won't screw up, however remote.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Well let's hope they don't CUT parts of the episode like they did with Red Dwarf.
Having said that - are they going to extend episodes to allow extra footage - i.e. scenes of the Federation squaring off against the Klingons in "Errand of Mercy"? Or are they going to fit things into exisiting time-frames/episodes (again hoping they won't cut things for the sake of a pretty effects shot).
Posted by Johnny (Member # 878) on :
I'd expect them to copy the camera angles and movements from the original shots, only making them much more realistic looking thanks to CGI. I wouldn't have thought there'd be any extra shots, only clearer or possibly better composed versions of the originals.
Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
I expect them to take as much artistic license as they can, then an inch or mile more, making it fit their vision of the way things could have been done.
Posted by o2 (Member # 907) on :
I wonder when the first real photos from "BoT" will be available. The photo referred to on the official Star Trek webside is neither 16:9 nor is it a high def picture.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"...are they going to extend episodes to allow extra footage..."
I very much doubt it. The original episodes are already longer than today's TV shows, forcing them to either be cut down or to have a smaller-than-usual number of commercials. You think that, after dumping a bunch of money into this project, they're going to want to cut back on their advertising possibilities even further?
"I'd expect them to copy the camera angles and movements from the original shots, only making them much more realistic looking thanks to CGI. I wouldn't have thought there'd be any extra shots, only clearer or possibly better composed versions of the originals." --- "I expect them to take as much artistic license as they can, then an inch or mile more, making it fit their vision of the way things could have been done."
I don't see any reason to expect either one of those things over the other. While I would certainly like to see the latter, I would not be at all surprised by the former.
Posted by o2 (Member # 907) on :
Besides the question if they extend the length of the episodes I worry about the quality of the normal, not CGI shots. On the one side there is this remastered picture from the TV broadcast with reduced noise, on the other hand Paramount did't used it for the DVD release. What use is HD when they still have a blurry picture?
Posted by Daniel Butler (Member # 1689) on :
They'll remaster it and clean it up. They can do incredible things these days with high-price-range studio-quality software, even extrapolating data into holes or scratches on the surface of old film.
Posted by Captain Boh (Member # 1282) on :
Well, based on what I've read at SFM (besides the parts where I suck if I'm not a professional 3d artist) I'm somewhat optomistic. CBS digital has trippled their staff for this project and the guy in charge is apparently a fan.
Does this mean things will go perfectly, no, and I'm not pretending it will. But if it turns out poorly, I doubt they'll stand behind it (and may even pull the plug on the project) because if it turns out poorly, they lose money.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I wonder if they'll use the Klingon model from Trials and tribulations as the basis for the D-7. No idea what they'll do with the RBOP- anything they do will be hated by fans that love the (oh-so-Federation-looking) TOS original.
It'd be cool to see Enterprise actually damaged externally as she gets battered in several episodes.
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: I wonder if they'll use the Klingon model from Trials and tribulations as the basis for the D-7. No idea what they'll do with the RBOP- anything they do will be hated by fans that love the (oh-so-Federation-looking) TOS original.
Well how did they go from this to this? Romulan spy in the Federation?
You know what if this turns out to be a failure not because of the upgraded FX but because of public backlash. I don't mean hardcore fans. I mean casual viewer.
Posted by Captain Boh (Member # 1282) on :
The original script does imply that the ship is based on stolen Federation technology.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I dont think it does. I think you're crazy.
crazy. Posted by Captain Boh (Member # 1282) on :
I don't deny being crazy, but that doesn't change anything.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
It's true. I wish I could find some documentation, but the thread on the TrekBBS where Sir Rhosis originally posted the first-draft script excerpt is no longer in their archive.
Basically, there was some additional dialogue on the part of the outpost commander citing the resemblance of the BoP to the Starship design and raising the prospect that there could be a Romulan spy in the Federation. This played into the whole paranoia that Stiles, et al, felt toward Spock. When Wah Chang designed the BoP, he deliberately included Federation-looking elements as stipulated by the script.
-MMoM Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
But it's not in the actual episode (?) so there's no need t adhere to a federation-looking design at this point. Not when their pre-TOS version looks soooo much cooler (except for the FUCKING DOMINION NACELLES!!!!).
Posted by Captain Boh (Member # 1282) on :
Its a design that has been around for some time now though. At the very least, chaning it drasticly would hurt their ability to market the original.
I'm not sure if CBS digital has access to the models made priviously anyway.
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
Say I wonder what they'll do with The Enterprise Incident, how can they make the Klingon battlecruisers more Romulan like?
Posted by Johnny (Member # 878) on :
Possibly by adding painted eagles(or whatever the very similar looking birds on Romulus are called...) on the bottom of the ships, like they were going to do in the game Secret of Vulcan Fury.
Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
Mars Needs Women:
quote:Well how did they go from this to this? Romulan spy in the Federation?
The same way we went from this to this.
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
Just my opinion, but around here we seem to have a habit of equating starships to naval vessels of Earth. While I understand that Star Trek tries to have a certain naval feel to it, to a certain extent it's not authentic. For one thing, naval ships can only travel above water while starships can travel all 360 degrees of space, can travel faster than light, and can do a whole bunch of things a naval vessel could never do. Plus, why do we try to rationalize alien vessels into Earth naval terms. They're alien!
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Because so little of trek's aliens are anything like alien? Lets see...Tholians aside, all Trek's starring (talking) aliens are bipeds, all breathe atmosphere compatible with human physiology and all have the same basic motivations and psychology as humans. Plus, these "aliens" are so close to humans that they can even interbreed with humans! Even those chickenshit 8472 aliens were far too human-looking: it's unlikely that life from another solar system would look that human- much less from a dimension so completely diffrent.
What's not to relate to?
Trek needs to develop some truly alien advasaries/allies....and hire more imaginative writers.
An aside: where does the notion of the Tholian ships being 15 meters long come from? Watching Enterprise, they always seem a minimum of 30-50 meters long.
Maybe these new FX Tholians will reveal the truth...I'd love to see the TOS webspinner with some of the detailing of the ones from Enterprise.
Posted by bX (Member # 419) on :
Hey does any of this HD remastering (which I will be very curious to see) have anything to do with this? And didn't I find the link to this around here someplace?
And while it's true I don't really know anything about HD-DVD or Blu-Ray mastering, I can't imagine they've done away with the capacity for branching (Well executed (using ol' busta DVD technology) in the Alien Quadrilogy box set, btw) Which is to say that including both original and "enhanced" shots shouldn't be too difficult. I mean from a technical standpoint. I think a cool (and one might hope, inevitable) extra would be to deconstruct one or more of the updated shots.
Posted by Captain Boh (Member # 1282) on :
My guess would be that its a simmilar but unrelated project.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Y'know...it very well could be the same guys: consider how long they must have worked to get the updated episodes ready for airing...and that was made only three years ago.
I really dig that little clip- I hope what we get is as good.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Without taking the time to load the Youtube clip because I'm wicked lazy, this isn't related to previous Let's Update TOS projects.
(Not to this one specifically, and not to the other that I think existed, as far as I know.)
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
I'm curious if they'll be tempted to recycle footage from Trials & Tribbleations (sp?) when they revamp Trouble with Tribbles. Will continuity geek be able to tollerate the sight of Odo in the background, or Kirk grilling O'Brian? It'd certainly be fun to see.
Naturally I'm curious to see how they'll represent the Antares in Charlie X. Though I'd love to see the concordance design rendered, my money is on them reusing the Xhoza mesh, that's if they show it at all.
Another point of interest for me would be how they'll portray the starbases; will they show other ships in orbit, will there be drydocks?
Whatever they do I'm sure there'll be TONS of nitpicking and plenty of unsatisfied trekkie out there. So looking at the glass as being half full - it doesn't matter how well this is done, it's sure to generate a great deal on conversation and interest on the boards.
Personally I'm looking forward to see what kind of choices they make, I don't really care how good or bad it turns out.
Posted by Captain Boh (Member # 1282) on :
The guy from CBS digital posting at SFM made it sound like they're just starting off on this, so I don't think its something thats been in production for the last three years. In any case, CBS digital hasn't had reason to be producing anything Trek for more than a few months when they've never handled Trek before. Its not like it would take years anyway. It can't be that much more difficult that doing the effects for a series currently in production, and those don't get even close to three years just for effects.
As for the DS9 footage, I don't belive the episode itself has enough footage in some scenes for them to compleatly replace the TOS footage, though those parts could potentially still have been shot.
Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
Mars Needs Women:
quote:For one thing, naval ships can only travel above water while starships can travel all 360 degrees of space, can travel faster than light, and can do a whole bunch of things a naval vessel could never do. Plus, why do we try to rationalize alien vessels into Earth naval terms. They're alien!
First of all, those space factors you mentioned doesn't enter into it at all. It has to do with the management of the unit. The largest military airplane in the world doesn't have a crew nearing even three digits, while the largest-crewed ships in history have almost approached five. A naval vessel of today can do things the Victory couldn't do at Trafalgar, yet we compare them. So I'd say the similar modes of management is a more important factor than performance.
If we do want to get technical, sea vessels and space vessels can both stop their engines and coast or stay still, while air planes have a very limited active performance span, not counting airborne refueling (or those god-awful s.h.i.e.l.d carriers they flaunt about in Marvel. What a waste of tax payer's money). Also, you don't have bridges, airlocks and bulkheads on a plane, you have cockpits, windows and wafers.
Regarding classifying alien vessels and their management, firstly it makes sense for our people to be able to relate to their alien enemies/allies with frames of reference that mean something to us. Secondly there, most sentient species that manage to create a space-faring organ and conduct extra-planetary exploration do so by teamwork. Teamwork means order, order means ranks. That's not projected human behavior, it's logic. Well I say fuck logic.
Posted by B.J. (Member # 858) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nim: Also, you don't have bridges, airlocks and bulkheads on a plane, you have cockpits, windows and wafers.
?!? Okay, I'm an aircraft structural designer, and I have to ask WTF is a wafer? I've never heard that terminology outside of carpentry or some kind of foodstuff. Also, there are bulkheads in aircraft - believe me, I've created/modified enough of them.
Posted by Johnny (Member # 878) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sol System: Without taking the time to load the Youtube clip because I'm wicked lazy, this isn't related to previous Let's Update TOS projects.
(Not to this one specifically, and not to the other that I think existed, as far as I know.)
Actually, it is related to Trek Enhanced. It's the proof of concept video that was rejected by Paramount. The older one is also on Youtube and was made at some point in the '90s. Naturally, the CGI isn't very well developed, so it's not surprising that it was also rejected.
It seems Paramount actually did something intelligent, they bided their time until CG effects were advanced enough that they could truly enhance TOS.
Posted by Johnny (Member # 878) on :
quote:Originally posted by Reverend: I'm curious if they'll be tempted to recycle footage from Trials & Tribbleations (sp?) when they revamp Trouble with Tribbles. Will continuity geek be able to tollerate the sight of Odo in the background, or Kirk grilling O'Brian? It'd certainly be fun to see.
That idea was brought up on SFM, and it was pointed out that it'd probably mean paying royalties to the DS9 cast, so it wouldn't happen.
Meanwhile, no royalties go to the TOS cast because they were only paid for the first three showings of each episode.
Besides, I'm not an expert on temporal mechanics, but I'd like to think that when we watch Trouble with Tribbles, it's a version of the timeline where the DS9 crew hadn't gone back in time yet.
Posted by WizArtist II (Member # 1425) on :
IIRC, The RBoP was to be similar to the primary hull of a Connie. The idea being it was stolen tech that was used as a basis for the vessel. Perhaps the first cloak could only hide a smaller profile so they nixed the secondary hull and compacted things into the final version we see. As good an explanation/excuse as any.
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
Hell, might as well have been a captured Fed ship like "Message in a Bottle".
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
quote:... but now that it�s been officially announced, I can say that although I�m not involved in it in any official capacity, they have my support and good wishes.
Unless your point is that somebody suggested the general idea once and now Paramount is doing it, but I took the original question to be "Is this that one project?"
Posted by bX (Member # 419) on :
You assumed correctly regarding my original question. (I met Daren Dochterman one time. He was really cool.)
Posted by Captain Boh (Member # 1282) on :
I really shouldn't have posted the article at SFM. I'm really sick and tired of hearing how everyone's Enterprise model is better than the one they're using.
Posted by Chris (Member # 71) on :
There was a brief glimpse of a computer screen that showed the RBOP in its original TOS form...
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
One wonders if they will do warp streaks.
The little "Balance of Terror" snippet shows the original TOS style of fuzzy dots of light, but we can't be sure whether the ship is at warp or impulse during the wedding scene. And "In a Mirror, Darkly" did streaks, right?
In any case, it's nice to see that the RBoP stays the same (meaning that the KBC does, too, despite other possible interpretations of the article text).
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Captain Boh (Member # 1282) on :
In a Mirror, Darkly did do streaks, but this is being handled by a compleatly different group of people.
Interestingly though, it looks like they corrected the sliding into frame the ship originally did while still keeping the basic look the same. The Enterprise now appears to fly into frame, then turn towards us.
Posted by Johnny (Member # 878) on :
There are a few more glimpses of the BoP in this clip
I'm really impressed by the remastering of the old film. I suppose it was bound to look good, but it still surprised me how much more crisp and clear it looked, even on such a low quality video.
Looks like they're revamping the shots with the shuttle as well. Can't wait to see how the Enterprise shuttlebay looks. Also, it seems they're definitely going to be showing the Antares.
The best part of that video is actually when Eugene Roddenberry is drowned out by arguing as he shouts "Can't we all just get along?!"
Posted by Captain Boh (Member # 1282) on :
That looks extremely rude.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
It's the cover of that Nirvana album again!
Still, the notion that the CG guys went to THIS much detail - hell, I've certainly never noticed this copulation limb before - that bodes well for the project. I certainly hope that the maneuvering they put into the project will be in line with how we're expecting a Connie to move!
Mark
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
Well at least we now know what sex the ship is!
Posted by Captain Boh (Member # 1282) on :
And it only took us 40 years.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Geez- talk about bashing something before it's even aired... There are a lot of "old timers/purists" that are going to hate it, but the whole point is to get young people that have never gotten into it because it's an old show on board (and so to make money from them, obviously).
I look at it just like the Trek calanders: every year there is a TOS calander that uses the same poor quality video captures for each month, then there's the SOTL calander that uses CGI to reproduce the TOS Enterprise.
I dont personally know anyone that buys that TOS version calander, but they sure are vocal about the effects!
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
Correct me if I'm wrong....but I think I see...a nipple.
Posted by Johnny (Member # 878) on :
Stop making me wonder what bizarre shape your nipples must be.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
That actually looks oddly like a diagram of a phaser that showed up a couple years back. If I recall it was one of the slides that Khan looked at in "space seed".
Here's the old thread but the links to the scans are long gone. If that's correct then that means that the original intention was probably for the Enterprise to have one of these atop all 3 glowing domes. Makes sence.
[ September 08, 2006, 01:44 AM: Message edited by: Reverend ]
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
The weird thing is, that doodad is not visible anywhere "real" - not the original large photographic model as seen on screen, not in its 1991 restoration, not on Greg Jein's "Trials and Tribble-ations" version. The "real" ship has just the nipple, not the clit.
Perhaps we do have to think of this as some sort of retractable or jettisonable instrumentation...
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Captain Boh (Member # 1282) on :
Would we have seen it on TV there or not? Its a really small detail and most of the times we see that area very close, its moving and blurred.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Timo: The weird thing is, that doodad is not visible anywhere "real" - not the original large photographic model as seen on screen, not in its 1991 restoration, not on Greg Jein's "Trials and Tribble-ations" version. The "real" ship has just the nipple, not the clit.
Perhaps we do have to think of this as some sort of retractable or jettisonable instrumentation...
Timo Saloniemi
I pray you never actually encountered a woman with a clit that looks anythng like that.
Maybe it's the tractor-beam emitter...or a phaser configuration for less advanced (but far more numerous) starships of the era? That would explain Kahn's studying it (potential opponent's strengths and all that).
It could also be what is inside the glowy domes: that white glow could be the phaser turrett's shield.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
quote:I pray you never actually encountered a woman with a clit that looks anythng like that.
Coming out of her nipple? Shudder...
I can't really claim I discern the looks of the thing. What is that extension like - a cylinder? I can't even quite tell its size and orientation in the fuzzy photos...
I'm vaguely afraid that the doodad was there when TOS photography started (as documented in a number of places, I now hear) but was lost before anything of substance was filmed for TOS, and that it's actually quite out of place for the CGI model. It just doesn't seem to be there any more later on.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Boult (Member # 1269) on :
well not old news to me but I did hear about it last week but I didn't read any article till now on scifi.com
Just something I was thinking about watching TOS this morning on TV.
The new 'effects' they do better not ADD things that are achronistic - i.e. stuff that is established later but they decide to use for the 'earlier' show - essentially 'rewriting history'.
Fine, update the shots - clear up things but don't go adding in things that change what the original episode was trying to convey.
Having said that - should they go and change the headstone seen in "Where No Man Has Gone Before"? From James R. Kirk to James T. Kirk? Which is more correct? I mean the premise of an entire episode was based around him being 'James R. Kirk' to sound like 'Jackson Roykirk'.
He may have changed his name by deedpoll after that episode to James T. Kirk? I would assume before Space Seed (if that works) since Khan calls him James T. Kirk doesn't he?
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Will they add Chekov to Space Seed? Maybe they'll just impose his picture and biography on the monitor Kahn is looking at (thus replacing that phaser diagram). I could live with that level of tweaking.
While it would be very difficult to do, I'd love to see a better interior in the shuttlecraft.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
quote:Having said that - should they go and change the headstone seen in "Where No Man Has Gone Before"? From James R. Kirk to James T. Kirk? Which is more correct? I mean the premise of an entire episode was based around him being 'James R. Kirk' to sound like 'Jackson Roykirk'.
Maybe he has two middle initials and he usually drops the R out of preference? My old man's middle names are Charles & Martin, but he's dropped the Charles sine his school days, though it's still legally his name, you won't find it on any legal documentation outside of his birth certificut and most probably his tax record.
So in Kirk's case only what's-his-name with the silver eyes knows his 2nd middle name since they go back a long way. You might even call his including it on the stone a personal taunt as Kirk clearly don't like whatever 'R' stands for. Though god knows how it could be much worse than Tiberius. As for Nomad, I presum it did a full scan of the data banks which has his other middle name in there somewhere but failed to comprehend that kirk doesn't use it. Not a huge stretch considering it mistook James for Jackson.
There, see? You don't need CG to correct a continuity goof, just a little imagination. As for what they'll do; the Okudas are involved so I'm sure they're well aware of the continuity issuse. I just doubt they'll bother correcting them. I wouldn't.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Now that would be cute. The Chekov thing, I mean.
Although improving the shuttlecraft would also be desirable, yes. Perhaps drop the pretense that the three bow squares are windows? Instead, transform the entire inner front surface to one big viewscreen, so that our heroes can actually look at the imagery without first fetching a ladder from the aft compartment.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Captain Boh (Member # 1282) on :
I should edit Space Seed to have Chekov milling about in the background all over the place.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
What - waving through windows?? I think his personel file popping up on Khan's screen would be good. BUT That does fall into the 'changing the story' aspect. This stuff is to just enhance the effects.
OK I loved this - gave me tingles - being a Trekker and a Muso:
quote:Originally posted by Captain Boh: And it only took us 40 years.
Kirk called her a 'she' in "The Naked Time".
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
Hermaphrodite.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Maybe a "Lady-boy"?
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
Transsexual!
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Timo: Now that would be cute. The Chekov thing, I mean.
Although improving the shuttlecraft would also be desirable, yes. Perhaps drop the pretense that the three bow squares are windows? Instead, transform the entire inner front surface to one big viewscreen, so that our heroes can actually look at the imagery without first fetching a ladder from the aft compartment.
Timo Saloniemi
I was thinking of adding additional interior detail so they dont look like they're riding in a paper-thin wooden box (though, of course the actors are). The inside of a public schoolbus has more detail than that set! There's also the whole "Tardis" aspect to the shuttle... Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
See I think that's going too far - it's... rewriting the 'past'. That's what the set was - so it should stay like that. Maybe screen read-outs could be updated etc?? Although as per Dax that era of technology was appreciated for it's "classic" look.
I wondered then about the Guardian of Forever - the scenes of history it shows - I wonder if they could put different scenes in there? Stuff even from Now till the 23rd century. Cochrane's launch, The Bell Riots, Formation of the Federation, launch of the Constitution. That would be cool.
Are they going to update all the daggy phaser effects?
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I think I read the phasers got updated- maybe the'll be fast like on Enterprise or so incredibly slow you can doidge them like on TNG.
I want to see the new background shots- will they reproduce the original matte paintings or go with soimething alltogether new? I always liked the city shot (the one modofied like six times though!) The whole city in the clouds needs to be redone- badly!
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I think I read the phasers got updated- maybe they'll be fast like on Enterprise or so incredibly slow you can dodge them like on TNG.
I want to see the new background shots- will they reproduce the original matte paintings or go with soimething alltogether new?
The whole city in the clouds scene needs to be redone- badly! Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
I believe the matte paintings will be converted to cgi shots, although I don't know if they will still represent the same background or a new one.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
That line about "we're not gonna make the ship do barrelrolls" sounds a bit like a poke at a certain bunch of fan fims...
Nice looking shot of the Enterprise leaving orbit.
Posted by Johnny (Member # 878) on :
To be honest, I'm not too impressed by the shots of the Enterprise in orbit of the planet. It could just be the Youtube compression, but it seems quite overlit and a little too high definition(something which often makes CG look fake). The shot of the phaser depth charge thing looks good though. I still can't wait for it.
Posted by B.J. (Member # 858) on :
HA! They were using Phil Broad's Botany Bay model plans to build their version!
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Mark
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
So, I ask again...why is it that it "needs" to be changed at all? The original effects suit the rest of the production perfectly, and are authentically part of the show. What is the point of doing new effects and attempting to disguise them as such?
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
So, I ask again...why is it that it "needs" to be changed at all? The original effects suit the rest of the production perfectly, and are authentically part of the show. What is the point of doing new effects and attempting to disguise them as such?
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
In some cases, the VFX was pretty annoyingly low quality, even compared with the sets and props. Eps like "The Doomsday Machine" really suffer from ridiculous visuals, and could use a retuning. The original writers and directors did not aim at being laughed at; Paramount would only be doing them a favor by providing in the 2000s what it could not in the 1960s.
Then again, other episodes need repairs in completely different areas. The VFX for "Spock's Brain" is plenty cool, down to the viewscreen graphics, for example... A number of other episodes would require plot hole fill-ins, or de-outdating of technobabble, or patching up a mis-edited soundtrack.
A visuals update will make those screw-ups stand out all the more. Then again, perhaps there will be other kinds of Quantum Leaping done on the episodes as well. It wouldn't be that hard to insert Balok's missing lines, or redub the Talosian voices, or even change the "black star" into a "black hole" in "Tomorrow is Yesterday" if one gets pedantic enough.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
quote:Originally posted by Johnny: To be honest, I'm not too impressed by the shots of the Enterprise in orbit of the planet. It could just be the Youtube compression, but it seems quite overlit and a little too high definition(something which often makes CG look fake). The shot of the phaser depth charge thing looks good though. I still can't wait for it.
I had the same feeling about the scene in which the Bird of Prey flies away. It looked just as bad as the original shot.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Man, what's wrong with the Talosian voices?
I seem to remember that last time I was on the "remakes are no big deal" side, but really, I have to agree with Mim. What is the point, exactly? (Well, the point is explicitly to attract audiences who do not enjoy 1960s era special effects. But in a wider sense?) It isn't like they can make Star Trek more "realistic," which is a completely hollow term when it comes to this sort of thing anyway.
Timo gets at something important, I think. The whole show is awash in American Cold War culture, hence its mix of post-war optimism with the occasional "and then the advanced civilization blew itself up" message. Surely, today, the most unbelievable aspect of the show is that humanity has come together around a core set of Western liberal democratic values. Like, America in space? They don't even believe in America across the Atlantic anymore.
And of course, by the time we update the show to reflect the current introverted zeitgeist, things will have changed and we'll have to do it again.
(And yet, Battlestar Galactica is 100% the best show. But it is not the old show with extra pain and suffering edited in, I guess.)
I don't know. I suppose I still stand by my claim that this isn't a big deal, and if it looks neat, then great. But I also think that Star Trek, like any work of art, is the product of specific cultural forces, and it would take more than updated effects to make it current. Also, maybe that there is a wrongheaded notion shared by some that science fiction only has value so far as it represents an "accurate" depiction of the future, or rather falls in line with the current guesses about same.
Blah blah blah. My only real point is that I love some of those matte paintings.
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
BTW, on what stations will these play on? Sci-fi? G4? TV Land?
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
They go into broadcast syndication. I believe they're replacing Enterprise, so if a local channel is showing Enterprise reruns, they will be switching to these. (Assuming they renewed their deal.)
Posted by Styrofoaman (Member # 706) on :
quote:Originally posted by Captain Boh: I should edit Space Seed to have Chekov milling about in the background all over the place.
...picking his nose. Farting loudly during a meeting. Knocking stuff over. Spilling a drink on Kahn.
"Of course I remember you..."
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
Well I checked out the official web site for airdates in New York and supposedly they're showing it on NBC at 3:00 Am on morning. Stay classy Paramount.
My last hope is My 9, which used to be UPN 9. They still show Voyager and Enterprise reruns.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
[Double post.]
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
Updating the VFX is an inherently futile thing to do when you consider that in within a few years the stuff they're producing now will look just as dated as what they replaced.
Pandering to those who can't appreciate the production values for what they are--the very best they could do with the technology and budget available--runs completely contrary to the entire spirit of the show. It's missing the point.
Star Trek is an historical document. When I look at an historical document, I want to see it as it originally was--not as it has been altered to appear by later meddling. I don't want a CGI-cluttered collage of 1960s and 2000s material. I just want the real, unadutlerated thing, complete with whatever "flaws" it might have.
Thanks goodness I already have the show on DVD!
-MMoM Posted by Captain Boh (Member # 1282) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim: So, I ask again...why is it that it "needs" to be changed at all? The original effects suit the rest of the production perfectly, and are authentically part of the show. What is the point of doing new effects and attempting to disguise them as such?
From what I heard it was because they've brought the footage to HD resolution, but the effects shots at HD became a lot more problematic.
A shot like this at HD resolution would probably take me right out of the episode.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
Uh...that stuff was shot on film, the actual resolution of which is much higher than HDTV. It's not going to look any worse on HD than it ever has.
BTW, just to make sure the record is straight, I'm all for an HD transfer of the show. I'm just against the use of updated CGI effects.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
It won't look worse, resolution-wise, no. But the high-def will allow you to see all the flaws that may have been glossed over at lower resolutions. Like just how badly the Constellation looks like the plastic model kit that it is.
Posted by Captain Boh (Member # 1282) on :
The original film is much higher resolution yes, but its never been publicly available at those higher resolutions, especially not after restoration efforts.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
I don't think there would be a qualitative difference in how (un)believable the shot was.
Posted by bX (Member # 419) on :
Also don't shows (didn't shows) sometimes shoot their VFX on 8 or 16mm? Which scanned at HD resolutions wouldn't hold up as well against the presumably 35mm the actors would have been shot on. I'm completely talking out my ass, though, anyone know if this is the case?
I think so long as the new FX are trying to maintain the aesthetics of the original (star placement? who does that?) and I hear even matching film grain that really I can't take issue. Honestly I'm more curious to see what they come up with. As previously stated, it would be nice to have the option to view the episodes in their original form. (Which if nothing else would be a great, 'In your face, SW fans!')
Posted by Captain Boh (Member # 1282) on :
"(Which if nothing else would be a great, 'In your face, SW fans!')"
Didn't the original theatrical versions just come out?
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Yep. I'm hoping my copies will arrive tomorrow.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Except they are not anamorphic and the film quality is all cruddy and something else technical is bad I'm sure, and I read all about it on the internet.
(But, for real, they have not done a good job with the originals I hear.)
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mark Nguyen: Li'l bit more on it all:
On the subject of the Enterprise's... equipment, I was looking at some of the images on http://cloudster.com and this one seems like it might be there. Could be the light hitting the nub funny though. My outline is terrible, but it highlights what I'm seeing, even if it looks totally off. Posted by Johnny (Member # 878) on :
Someone's compiled some more comparison shots between old and new:
The BoP in particular looks quite good, although even that doesn't have very good lighting. I'm starting to think the dingy lighting of the original shots really helped give them character, which these CGI replacements desperately lack.
Posted by Mikey T (Member # 144) on :
Let's see if this shows up.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
I feel so dirty.
Mark
Posted by Captain Boh (Member # 1282) on :
What is it? Youtube isn't letting me click the Confirm button.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Do you think they managed to track down the original Romulan BOP model? Didn't it go missing years ago?
That comparison - looks like the 'top fin' has a bit of a point at the back whereas the original version looks to go straight up - but that could be because of it being cropped off at the top.
I always thought the bird picture underneath always had a bit of a glow to it - was it supposed to?
Posted by Mikey T (Member # 144) on :
It's an interesting Star Trek music video from Nine inch Nails.
Posted by Johnny (Member # 878) on :
I love that video, I won't spoil it for people who haven't seen it yet, but it's one of the most touching and beautiful videos based on Star Trek that I've ever seen, and it's very well edited.
quote:Originally posted by AndrewR: Do you think they managed to track down the original Romulan BOP model? Didn't it go missing years ago?
That comparison - looks like the 'top fin' has a bit of a point at the back whereas the original version looks to go straight up - but that could be because of it being cropped off at the top.
I always thought the bird picture underneath always had a bit of a glow to it - was it supposed to?
I noticed the change in the tail fin as well. It's a minor change, and I don't really have an opinion on which is better, but I'd be interested in knowing if it was an intentional change in the design, or a tiny error. As for the bird, I don't think it was supposed to glow, but we don't have many shots to go on.
Posted by Charles Capps (Member # 9) on :
Balance of Terror is tonight, locally... this should be interesting.
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
Well enjoy because I won't because NBC 4 won't be airing the episode until 3:00 on fucking Monday morning in New York Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
In the Philadelphia area, it's airing on WPSG, the local ex-UPN station, at 11AM Sunday morning.
EDIT: MNW, that's what VCRs and DVRs are for. Also in extreme situations, BitTorrent. Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
Yeah but I don't have blank DVDs to recorde the episode, would CDs work?
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Not so extreme for some.
Shall we start a new thread for the discussion of the episode?
Mark
Posted by emperorkalan (Member # 1821) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mars Needs Women: Well enjoy because I won't because NBC 4 won't be airing the episode until 3:00 on fucking Monday morning in New York
3:35AM, to be precise, but it was even worse! Thanks to the Sunday night football running long, they rearranged their late-night schedule and ran trek early! If you tuned in or started taping at 3:30, you got the last 10 minutes of the show! I guess they had to make sure "Access Hollywood" got its full run in!
I wonder if every week will be a crapshoot like that?
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
Hey a fellow New Yorker! Welcome! I wish that My 9 had been the station that participated in this endeavour. Their Saturday and Sunday afternoon schedule is filled with crap save for the occasional Farscape and/or Stargate episode. There's plenty of time slots to show Trek and yet they run a "Fashion House" marathon. They must really be trying to lose ratings.
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
When I was a kid, Saturday afternoons between noon & 6 PM on WWOR were a must. Two hours each of Knight Rider, Airwolf, & The A-Team.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Wow- three hours of ammo expenditure and not a single fatality on a weekly basis. All you needed was McGyver to round out our block of "unbelievable bullshit shows".
No TOS this week- the station that showed it last week was hocking real estate scams.
Charles, you seen BoT yet? I is starting new thread for it! Me an trend-setter!
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