So I just finished watching TMP and a thought occurs to me.
Surely by the end of Enterprise's refit and the events of TMP, Excelsior and Transwarp must be well into design and under construction.
What if the reason there are so few Constitution refits around is because they're were always meant to be a very temporary stop gap measure to increase the lifespan of Starfleet's primary cruiser while the next generation one was brought to fruition? Therefore, not necessarily all of the Constitutions would be refitted in the first place, and certainly none would be new builds (hence A's early retirement).
All of those ships would be around forty years old during the time of Search for Spock to Undiscovered Country (the admiral's line in Search for Spock not withstanding).
I'm sure there are holes to the idea, so have at it.
Posted by Fabrux (Member # 71) on :
If the refit was only meant to be a stopgap measure, then I highly doubt they would completely rebuild a ship for that purpose. Seems a bit excessive to me.
No, I think they were designed for a purpose and served that purpose very well. Probably a long production run. At the time the Excelsior was probably only a prototype and they were expecting to work on the design for a while to work out the bugs. The apparent failure of the transwarp program shoved that aside and they went with the Excelsior design as a regular ship, to save on R&D costs for the prototype.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Also, the initial Transwarp experients must have been promising- no way would they build a giant ship otherwise when a smaller (even skeletal) spaceframe would do. There may have been several Excelsiors partly built to test various configurations (possibly explaining the "B" and other variants).
I think that Starfleet saw themselves far behind the other major powers with outdated ships and decided to build a "big stick" line of ships to serve as the backbone of a revamped fleet. Starfleet probably refitted many older classes (Soyuz, Connie, etc.) to extend their lifespan as new ships were commisioned, then scapped the old ships or possibly sold/traded them to lesser friendly powers or decommisioned their weapons and pressed them into civillian service (freighters etc.).
I doubt any Connie Refits ever served by the time the Ambasador first arrived on the scene.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
At least not in their original capacity. Depends on how you interpret that line from DS9 but I like to think the Academy trainer Republic was a refitted connie. As for why there were so few connies around I'd say that it's because we just didn't see them. Being Starfleet's best all rounders in their heyday it's likely they were deployed all across the frontier. So the chances of more than one of them being in the same sector were rather slim and since we followed the Enterprise around everywhere, we only saw what they saw. Of course even in the three or so years that we saw they still managed to cross paths with four other connies, eight if you count the M-5 war games.
As for the movies, although we did see at least one connie in spacedock in ST:IV most of the time they were the victim of the "only ship in range" conceit.
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
It's possible that with the Excelsior in pre-production phase, Starfleet decided that, instead of refitting all of her Constitution-Class ships, they would instead only refit a smaller percentage than they originally intended. Non-refit Connies would be retired from service and replaced by new Excelsiors, and the refit Connies would serve until the end of their new refit lifetimes. As we saw the Excelsior class as the "workhorse" of the fleet in TNG (DeSoto's line in "Tin Man" about shuttling back and forth from starbases), the Connies would become the workhorses of the film fleet, with the Excelsiors as the front line, exploration ships.
Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
I'd think that refits would be relatively common. The avionics, turbolift, warp core & coils, the various emitters, and sliding doors, would be a few of the things that would wear out or become obsolete. The basic frame should be in good condition. Some design changes could also appear during this SLEP (Service Life Extension Program) if a research group discovered various tweaks in hull design, discovered weaknesses in the basic design, etc... A different shape would emerge.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
I was just thinking, it may come to be that STXI shows us that the TOS incarnation was already an extensive refit from what the ship looked like before. I wonder if SF might not have found it necessary to refit the entire Connie fleet, but maybe just those that had seen stressful tours of duty like the Enterprise.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
I agree with Reverend, that we probably just didn't see the refit Connies in use in the TNG era. I'm not sure what use they might be � perhaps local patrol cruisers, a la the US Coast Guard, etc. (That would explain the presence of Connie wreckage at Wolf 359, at least.)
One thing that a lot of people forget is that despite the common fandom designations for the Connie and the Miranda (heavy cruiser and frigate), they're both practically the same size and volume. According to this chart, the Connie was 235K cubic meters, and the Miranda was 218K. But the Miranda's volume would be much more useful because it's not an odd shape; the large rear section makes it quite simple for rearranging the internal layout and making it into a transport or whatever.
The only thing I can't think of a justification for would be why we never saw a Connie in the huge Dominion War fleets, when we always saw Mirandas aplenty.
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
Connies that Starfleet no longer wanted may have been sold off to UFP members worlds' own space fleets, for defense purposes.
As for the greater number of Mirandas ... there are (or should be) a lot of questions about the class. The Constellation, Soyuz, and Constitution, the Miranda's contemporaries, are all out of service by TNG. Presumably, Starfleet decided that the Miranda -Class suited itself to relatively inexpensive lifetime extension plans, and that the ship could serve as a suitable transport with a small crew (The Lantree from TNG's second season). When the war started, it was probably simple to pull those ships into drydock, slap some new phaser banks onto 'em, give 'em more crew, and send them out as cannon fodder.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
Well what we saw of the war were mostly offensive actions, which is where you're going to want the bulk of your big guns (hence all the Galaxies.) Next to those beasts and going up against Galors and Dominion Cruisers Mirandas are more useful as escorts and destroyers, whereas Connies (that is if there are many left in active service) would have been relegated to the home systems. Indeed there could in theory have been some guarding Betazed when it fell, Odo (or was it Worf?) did say the defence system was outdated and the main fleet was off on manoeuvres. This would also be consistent with the Connie that was at Wolf 359 as I imagine most of that fleet was scrambled from the surrounding systems. As for the Miranda question, remember that most of the Mirandas we've seen in TNG and beyond are in the NCC-2xxxx ish range, so clearly the design was given a second lease on life at some point in the early 24th century, possibly because they are easier to build and more adaptable to new technologies and multiple roles. Though there are probably a few stragglers from the old NCC-18xx runs they would be few and far between and mostly on milk run duties. The Connies on the other hand were simply superseded by the Excelsiors and didn't receive a new production run, so those that were left from Kirk's era would become rarer and rarer as time went on. By the 2370's I'd be surprised if there were more than a dozen left in all of Starfleet and most of them wouldn't be up to going toe to toe with a Jem'Hadar figher.
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
I think the success of the Miranda over the Connie is twofold: Firstly, the Miranda seems more modular- and more readliy adaptable for specific uses: we've seen several variants and mission-profiles (freighter, destroyer, cruiser). Secondly, I think the Connie's unique shape would require a larger crew than practical for downgraded vessels. The Miranda in freighter mode can operare for missions with as few as 12 crewmembers (assuming the freighter configuration with minimal weapons) whereas I cant imaging the Connie really working for long without a much larger crew (yes, we saw the ship half-ass manned by Kirk's gang a few times, but I'm talking about missions lasting for months- possibly even years).
An aside, the Connie has some serious blind-spots regarding weapon-coverage that the Miranda (rollbar equiped) does not- making the Miranda a better destroyer for the Dominion War fleet actions.
The notion of the Connie serving in "home fleets" is a good one- they possibly act as trainers, patrol ships and even starliners. I can easily see a Connie refitted as civillian transport- possibly adding a secondary shuttlebay where the torpedo launcher is.
Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
Or a bar
Posted by Pensive's Wetness (Member # 1203) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ritten: Or a bar
Let's look at this from a RL production POV...
when TNG was ramping up to begin production, they used minutures from the TMP series. what movies were being made during that time frame?
TFFucktier... The E-A filming minuature probably wasn't availible for use on TNG effects (that assumes that they would even OK the idea of relabeling the E-A as another ship-of-the-line.)
using that line of thought, when did the BOP appear on TNG? that minuature is the only other mini being used in ST:V.
i recall reading somewhere online where the TNG folks dilberately did not use the E-A as a generic filming mini because they didn't want to confuse viewers (as you recall, the original reason they remade the ST:II story boards and created the Reliant filming model... of course, i also would have loved the original version of it, too...)
Snarf!
Posted by bX (Member # 419) on :
My thoughts were similar to Rev's: that the Mirandas must have been easier to build/maintain and the Excelsiors filling the role of the Connies. I always imagined the Mirandas were like the Volkswagen Beetles of the fleet: maybe not the best ship, but with parts that were easy to come-by and maybe a flexible internal arrangement they could easily be upgraded to use whatever technological improvements happened over the decades.
Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
I am having trouble with the saucers not all being modular, or at least, if they didn't keep up with current thinking and realized their mistake, being able to make the saucers modular.
Thinking even more along these lines what kind of shape could a ship take on if all parts are modular? A shorter neck, more tucked in nacelles, and a shorter engineering section would like like what? Connie MkIII? Make the neck tiny, cut the engineering section in third or quarter, and give the nacelles a slight down angle would look kind of Mirande like.
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
I think they are modular in the sense that given types of rooms for given decks will have similar footprints, and that you can arrange the internal volume of each deck from a handy catalogue of preset templates, and then link it all together with chunks of turboshaft and corridor. That said, the internal volume of a Saladin HAS to have a completely different layout from that of a Constitution, simply because of everything the Connie has in its secondary hull that the Sallie is lacking.
Bear in mind that even with the "not wanting to confuse viewers" BS, we still had an Enterprise (shorthand for post-refit Constitution so I don't have to keep typing the word "refit") fighting at Wolf 359.
I don't think there was any clear demarcation of "pre-refit" and "post-refit". I am more of the opinion that Constututions were cycled in for refits as needs and patrol schedules allowed. And they'd be upgraded where possible and viable. By the time of the Big Refit of the Enterprise, I doubt any Constitutions were identical to each other any more, and we'd have some not-quite-TMP-looking ships like fandom's "Constitution (II)" Phase 2-derived design kicking around immediately prior. I think the Miranda was already flying around in the 2260s with more-or-less its TWOK appearance, albeit with different warp engines and a different bridge (Soyuz-style?). Then the Decatur and Belknap were used as testbeds for the TMP-style warp engines. And when the Enterprise went in, she got all of the systems upgrades those classes had pioneered -- new hull materials, new warp engines, new reactor design, new phasers and torpedoes, new computers, new bridge, new impulse engines, et cetera. By the time she was finished, she'd had more quantitative and more qualitative refitting than any other Constitution thus far, and warranted a new class designation (until Starfleet streamlined subclasses a decade or so later).
That amounted to a new lease on life for a thirty-year-old design, and whilst refit Constitutions were likely still phased out after only a couple-decade extension of their service lives, newbuild Enterprises probably continued to serve actively until the Cardassian Wars of the 2340s, and even later in Reserve fleets.
--Jonah
Posted by WizArtist II (Member # 1425) on :
I liken it to the conversions of the old Essex and Midway class carriers. There were massive changes as shown below.
Here is a shot of Midway Pre-Conversion:
And here's a shot after Modernization:
and some plan views of the massive flight deck changes:
IIRC, the Midway was launched in 1944 and only decommissioned in 2000. (Not sure of the exact date) She was a viable weapons system the entire time. The same COULD be true for the Connies.
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
Wow, they turned her into signal flags? I must've missed that bit. Also, I think I have the book that Midway scan came from because it's awful familiar.
Award Date: 08/01/1942 Keel Date: 10/27/1943 Launch Date: 03/20/1945 Age (since launch)(At time of disposal) 58.4 years Delivery Date: 09/01/1945 Age (since delivery) (At time of disposal): 57.9 years Commission Date: 10/10/1945 Decommission Date: 04/11/1992 Years from Commission to Decommission: 46.5 Stricken Date: 03/17/1997
Remarks: MIDWAY WAS DONATED TO THE SAN DIEGO AIRCRAFT CARRIER MUSEUM.
Posted by WizArtist II (Member # 1425) on :
Hmm, they must have moved the image. Hate trusting other peoples sites.
Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
USS Midway CV-41
Pre-Mod:
1st Mod (SCB 110)
2nd Mod (SCB 101.66) Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
Someplace I have seen a shot of the SCB 110 version, from the port side, with the bow elevator down part way and used as a parking lot for the crew's POVs when it was headed out to Japan.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
I went to see Midway in San Diego this summer, and got a very good look at her. While she had mostly been restored to her 1960s look, the boat was still very modern-looking after almost sixty years of service. The brand new carrier USS Reagan was just across the bay (and we got a good look at her in a harbor tour the next day) and aside from size, you really couldn't tell the difference in design. The docents on the tour insist that when she was decomissioned, there was really nothing wrong with her except for her age on paper. She could have kept sailing for many more years.
Mark
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
Except that she wasn't able to handle some of the more modern designs.
Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
She could have made a good ASW carrier though, and S-3s aren't all that new.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by Peregrinus: Bear in mind that even with the "not wanting to confuse viewers" BS, we still had an Enterprise (shorthand for post-refit Constitution so I don't have to keep typing the word "refit") fighting at Wolf 359.
Yeah, but it was in two pieces and half destroyed. I doubt most of the viewing audience watching that scene shouted "hold on a cotton-picking minute... what's the movie Enterprise doing there?"
Posted by Zefram (Member # 1568) on :
When I visited the Midway a year or so ago, a docent I was speaking with said that the diesel fuel required by the ship restricted how much aviation fuel and weapons that could be carried. The Midway could only support about a week of constant flight operations before resupplying. A nuclear carrier, which obviously doesn't burn any sort of fossil fuel, could carry enough aviation fuel and weaponry for about a month of operations.
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
quote:Originally posted by PsyLiam:
quote:Originally posted by Peregrinus: Bear in mind that even with the "not wanting to confuse viewers" BS, we still had an Enterprise (shorthand for post-refit Constitution so I don't have to keep typing the word "refit") fighting at Wolf 359.
Yeah, but it was in two pieces and half destroyed. I doubt most of the viewing audience watching that scene shouted "hold on a cotton-picking minute... what's the movie Enterprise doing there?"
I recognized the windows of the botanical section right off on my first viewing. Spotted the saucer on the second or third. But then, I'm something of a special snowflake in pitiable Trekkie geek circles.
--Jonah
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
I know that the hardcore fans would have recognised it, but the mainstream audience wouldn't have. And even if they did, it was in a situation where they couldn't have gotton confused.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
The back shot of the colour picture of the refit-Midway - the part under the runway - reminds me a little of the 'underslung' "shuttlebay" of the Excelsior class (starship). Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Midway has gone through numerous refits over the course of her service history. Stuff has been added, then removed, and in some cases put back again. For example, when they gave her an angled deck for landing, they also installed a small waist capapult to launch planes from mid-deck. When the jet age bcame firmly entrenched, this catapult was incapable of launching the heavier jet planes, so the waist cat was removed and the two bow catapults were upgraded. Midway would never be able to launch F-14 Tomcats, but would serve well as a base for A-7s, F-8s and eventually the F/A-18s that replaced them both (and which outlived the Tomcats). Ironically, the Tomcats would be the planes that had to be modified to attack ground targets later in their lifespan, since no one flies anti-ship planes anymore, and the 18s were built to do basically anything you need a warplane for. Midway was small compared to the newer Nimitz class ships, but she was able to deliver the same kind of punch that her descendant ships could.
There used to be a ton of .50 cal gun points all over the place; there were removed (along with all the original 5-inch gun armament) as missiles pretty much ensured that no plane or hostle warship would be able to get close enough. Fittingly enough, in the 1990s most warships put more .50 cal guns back on, to defend against the tiny, explosives-laden suicide boats that various groups could throw against them. More fun still, stuff often gets recycled between ships; the recently-decommissioned USS Independence (from the 1950) had one anchor and both anchor chains moved over to be used by the brand-new USS George HW Bush, which gets commissioned next year.
I see no reason that Starfleet would add, pull, and then re-add stuff as necessary. At some point in the future, the fancy phaser strips could be replaced by upgraded ball turrets, photon torpedoes could come back in vogue, and the command colour would finally be blue...
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