Hello, all. I'm a longtime lurker (five years!) and finally got around to registering an account. I've been throwing around some ideas on the origin of the Romulans and want to see what you think. For about two years, I was writing up ideas for a post-Voyager/Dominion War series involving the Romulans but ultimately shelved it. Using real-life Earth situations, I've mixed in canon information with some of my speculation.
The Romulans were the descendents of genetically enhanced supersoldiers created by the Vulcans before the arrival of Surak over four thousand years ago. Like the Jem'Hadar, the Vulcans created the Romulans as foot soldiers to fight the Andorians and they were intended to be the future of Vulcan society where physical and mental imperfections were to be removed by eugenics but the project failed to control emotions. With the rise of logic and widespread support for Surak's teachings, the Romulans had no future purpose and were seen as a threat to society. The Romulans rebelled but their rebellion was suppressed. In response, the Vulcan High Command placed the surviving Romulans aboard sleeper ships to be launched into a distant star. Like Adam and Eve being forced out from the Garden of Eden, the Romulans were sent away from Vulcan.
However, the Romulans managed to commandeer the stasis ship and, aware of their fate, decided to search for a new home world where they could build a new society. They landed on what became Romulus. In three hundred years, the Romulans conquered Calder II, Dessica II, Draken IV, Yadalla Prime and Barradas III. Over time, the Romulans conquered and liquidated various alien species in their zeal to overpower the Vulcans by imperial strength. The ruthless and rapid expansion by the Romulans led to tensions with the Klingons which led to intermittent war with the Romulans by the 22nd century.
The Romulans maintained an empire with a parliamentary government with a chancellor and an emperor but was replaced in a military coup led by General D'deridex who merged the positions of emperor and chancellor into the office of praetor; on Earth, Adolf Hitler merged the offices of chancellor and president of Germany into Fuhrer.
The new office assumed new powers and reduced the Senate to a symbolic but powerless rubber-stamp legislature. Most of the real power lies in the military, the praetor and the Continuing Committee; for example, warbirds are named for emperors, generals and praetors. The Continuing Committee resembles the Politburo Standing Committee in the People's Republic of China as a small clique of individuals with power, reducing the Romulan Senate to a symbolic but powerless rubber-stamp legislature. (There may also be a judicial branch of some sort.)
Organization of Romulan government:
Praetor (one)
Continuing Committee (seven to nine members)
Senate (44 senators, as seen in Nemesis, representing 44 regions and/or planets)
Posted by Daniel Butler (Member # 1689) on :
You know, I really think they were just regular Vulcans who disagreed with Surak and so left because they were disgusted with the passionless path that Vulcan was taking.
Posted by Sean (Member # 2010) on :
From watching the text commentary to "The Forge" last night, that's the impression I got. The commentary mentioned that there were several references to that hidden within the show.
It's a nice theory though. Everything except the "augment" like origin (which is somewhat substantiated by TPTB, could easily be true. Posted by Guardian 2000 (Member # 743) on :
The physiological differences fit better with augmentation and genetic manipulation than a mere 3000 years of normal genetic drift, though per "Year of Hell"[VOY] other species have been known to introduce whatevers into a genome somehow or other, seemingly naturally.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Playing with genes might account for the Remans though- a big social deterrent to crime that would be.
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
Well, that's a more interesting subject, that's, as far as I know, never been completely settled: are Remans degenerated Romulans or some native species?
The ENT trilogy mentions "those who marched beneath the Raptor's wings", which seems like a pretty clear reference to the proto-Romulans before they left Vulcan (or were exiled?).
Along the way they also settled some worlds like Debrune.
Posted by Daniel Butler (Member # 1689) on :
There weren't physical differences in TOS. < /fanboy >
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
But some suckers that setteled Remus might have undergone various Trekish mutations due to the Radiation Of The Week.
Or they were tweaked Romulans. Or they were test victims of Romulan mutagenic weapons. Or they were the natives that got displaced to the "reservation" of Remus. Or the Romulans decided that they were already ripping off Earth mythology and needed to complete the picture.
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
Hmm? The Rihannsu know nothing of your Earth fairy tales!
Posted by Krenim (Member # 22) on :
The best explanation I've read for the differences between Vulcans and Romulans was given here at Flare at some point, though I've long forgotten when and by whom.
The wars raging on Vulcan at the time went nuclear, as seen in Archer's katra-induced visions. Everyone on the planet probably suffered from radiation poisoning to one degree or another, and mutations galore probably crept up for generations. By the time their genomes finally stabilized, the Vulcans and Romulans had enough differences to classify as different species.
Posted by Blue387 (Member # 2157) on :
I'm doing some speculation here on Romulan governance. There's an interesting article by David Sanger in today's New York Times on Iran and I was thinking that some of the items mentioned could apply to Iran: repressive government and a strong military who are inextricably intertwined and if one fails, both collapse.
I could argue that the Romulans spend great amounts on their military because it is the most important element in their society, defending the empire, protecting the regime and ensuring stablility. However, their withdrawal from interstellar affairs is not a sign of strength but of weakness. Perhaps the Romulans are not prepared to fight a long, sustained campaign after decades of being reduced to a defensive force; if they were so strong in the military, they would have launched a war against the Federation decades ago and not resort to duplicity, espionage or proxies.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Or, like Iran and so many others, they use military scare tactics and propaganda to distract the masses from grim economic and living conditions. Romulus looked pretty shitty at the street level when we saw it in TNG.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
And don't forget the Romulan Soup Nazi!
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: Or, like Iran and so many others, they use military scare tactics and propaganda to distract the masses from grim economic and living conditions. Romulus looked pretty shitty at the street level when we saw it in TNG.
Well given that's where the dissidents were hiding out, I imagine what we saw was one of the city's poorer districts.
As for the Romulan/Reman/Vulcan genetics; has ANY Romulan ever shown any telepathic ability? If not then I rather think that the Vulcans are the augments, while the Remans were probably a counter or a crude attempt to reproduce them.
[ June 29, 2009, 10:09 AM: Message edited by: Reverend ]
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
What is the basis for thinking Remans are related to Romulans/Vulcans? I always thought they were indigenous inhabitants that were enslaved by the Romulans. Admittedly, there's no hard evidence either way, but that was the impression I got from NEM.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
The ears, the forehead, the telepathy, the strength; all exaggerated characteristics of Vulcanoids. It was never stated where the Remans come from, so any theory is just that. Still, the Augment line of reasoning is sound, and much more interesting than having them be just a bunch of locals the Romulans enslaved.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
I see very little if any resemblance between Reman and Romulan foreheads or ears, certainly no more than between a number of other aliens seen in Trek. As for telepathy, there have likewise been many races demonstrating such abilities.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
Well the ears are pointy and the foreheads have that same V shape, so in trek terms that's similar.
Statistically telepathy is rare among Trek species, and it's a bit of a coincidence that the Romulans would just happen to settle right next to a planet of telepaths, right after escaping another one.
Also, at no point, anywhere in Trek is there mention of any other races in the Romulan Empire other than Romulans, up until the Remans showed up in Nemisis, and they're living right there next to the homeworld. More coincidence?
Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
Perhaps a previously unknown "neanderthal" race of romulans, saved from annihilation unlike their human counterparts because they proved good slaves. The forehead and ears was retained in the later, dominant species. Reman telepathy and muscle strength are good traits, but perhaps the later romulans exhibited higher overall intelligence.
Here's a kicker, perhaps the men under Nero are reman-romulan hybrids. Would make sense since they were originally workers, and it would explain the paleness of their skin. Also, if they come from post-Nemesis 2380's, perhaps they were granted more freedom and privileges under the new senate, before the apocalypse.
Is it plausible that the Federation and Vulcan would tolerate institutionalized slavery in a major world? Well, do we see US forces trying to liberate the "untouchables" that clean the sewers and streets of India? Knope.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
No, Nero's crew was Romulan, there's no reason to think otherwise. Not all Romulans serve in the military, in fact in order for the Empire to work without collapsing or grinding to a halt, only a small percentage can serve in the military. Nero and his crew were Romulan miners, end of.
As for toleration of slavery, that's a whole other discussion, but since you brought it up; Romulus was never a Federation world, so the prime directive applies. They don't have to like it, but they do have to tolerate it. Of course where certain species are concerned, the concept of slavery may not apply. For instance, what if a species like the Gaim from Babylon 5 try to join the Federation? An intelligent and rational insect race dominated and controlled by the queens, each genetically designed to a specific purpose, with no chance of self determination where all drones are forced at a genetic level to be loyal to their Queen, to feel fear when they do not obey and pleasure when they do.
From a human perspective that's a horrific state of affairs, but to an alien race, it's their nature and no amount of pamphlets on democracy and "inalienable human rights" can change that, not in a million years. It's that kind of thing that Star Trek used to be good at but fell off into nice "safe" moral dilemmas that can be wrapped up in 40 mins.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Reverend: No, Nero's crew was Romulan, there's no reason to think otherwise. Not all Romulans serve in the military, in fact in order for the Empire to work without collapsing or grinding to a halt, only a small percentage can serve in the military. Nero and his crew were Romulan miners, end of.
Yes, well, if the Romulans had let their miners (equiped with kilometers-long, Borg-tech equiped super-battleships with an arsenal of torpedos and doomsday drill) they would have conquored the galaxy long ago.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
That Borg tech crap is non-canon.
Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
I once saw a western-movie where mining dynamite was used for something other than mining. It was bizarre to say the least. Also, Starfleet has had WMD-grade tectonic phaser-drilling technology for a long time.
Reverend:
quote:No, Nero's crew was Romulan, there's no reason to think otherwise. Not all Romulans serve in the military, in fact in order for the Empire to work without collapsing or grinding to a halt, only a small percentage can serve in the military. Nero and his crew were Romulan miners, end of.
That wasn't my point, my point was that the narrative would've allowed it, although it would've pulled too much 2380-lore into the movie. I could see a story for a book with "remulans" as a driving force, though.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
Fine, but that's pure invention. You might as well say Nero was a form locked changeling, there's about as much evidence for that as there is for the crew being "Remulans".
Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
Indeed it's pure invention, that was the point.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
They were Klingons in disuuise, like that guy from them Tribbles episodes- thus Earth's destruction is blamed on the Romulans (who are in turn wiped out in revenge). Makes more sense than a bunch of miners being psychotically loyal to their captain for 25 years because the guy's wife died. I mean, they surely could have become heroes to all Romulans by warning of the eventual disaster and giving their uber-doomsday ship to the Preator, but a quarter-century revenge trip is sooo much saner.
quote:Originally posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim: That Borg tech crap is non-canon.
Yes, but that comic-book crap is needed to try to fill plot holes- and now a second series is coming out dealing with Kirk and all that revised history....possibly explaining why he has no older brother?
Really, it's pretty fucking sad that you need a minimum of two comic series to explain shit in a movie.
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
To be honest the more I think about the deleted scene on the Klingon prison planet, the more it seems necessary. I think Abrams made a huge mistake not including it since it gave the impression that Nero and crew sat on their asses for 25 years. Also I noticed that the Narada and the Jellyfish arrived at different points in space (in addition to different times);the Narada emerging near a star (Hobus Star?) and the Jellyfish seemingly in the middle of nowhere.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
Well Nero seamed to know in advance where Spock would emerge, so it couldn't have been random. Perhaps in both instances it is actually the same point in space relative to the centre of the universe. How fast is the galaxy moving away from the big bang I wonder?
Posted by Joshua Bell (Member # 327) on :
Tell me you didn't just ask that...
*sigh*
The Big Bang wasn't an explosion in space, it was an explosion *of* space.
1D analogy: today we live on an expanding rubber ruler; the Milky Way is at the 1cm mark, Andromeda is at the 3cm mark, etc. The ruler is gradually stretching out as time passes; in another billion years they will be 2.5cm apart. Looking back in time, they get closer together. At the Big Bang, the ruler had shrunk to zero length so there was no space between those points. (You have to imagine the ruler has no ends, though. You can pretend the ruler is bent into a loop if that helps.) There is no "middle" of the expansion - it all expands uniformally.
The 2D analogy is usually a balloon, with galaxies being on the surface. It is a 2D world so there is just the surface - east/west and north/south, but no in/out. As the balloon inflates the galaxies on the surface get farther apart since space itself is expanding, but there is no point in the flat universe of the surface that is the center of the expansion.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Joshua Bell: Tell me you didn't just ask that...
*sigh*
The Big Bang wasn't an explosion in space, it was an explosion *of* space.
1D analogy: today we live on an expanding rubber ruler; the Milky Way is at the 1cm mark, Andromeda is at the 3cm mark, etc. The ruler is gradually stretching out as time passes; in another billion years they will be 2.5cm apart. Looking back in time, they get closer together. At the Big Bang, the ruler had shrunk to zero length so there was no space between those points. (You have to imagine the ruler has no ends, though. You can pretend the ruler is bent into a loop if that helps.) There is no "middle" of the expansion - it all expands uniformally.
The 2D analogy is usually a balloon, with galaxies being on the surface. It is a 2D world so there is just the surface - east/west and north/south, but no in/out. As the balloon inflates the galaxies on the surface get farther apart since space itself is expanding, but there is no point in the flat universe of the surface that is the center of the expansion.
That's crazy, Josh: everyone knows that God made the universe 6000 years ago, and that carbon dating, astrophysics and rational thought are tools of Satan. Also, the universe revolves around Earth and it is flat.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
It's been a long time since astrophysics class for me (and what I learnt at the time has probably since been proven wrong) but I was under the impression that all the galaxies are moving away from a common central point (some are even colliding), though yes I do realise the big bang wasn't a literal explosion but a rapid expansion of space. Either way and however you phrase it, the galaxies are altering their relative positions from each other, so from what other fixed point would you gage it? Still, leaving that aside if you instead take the galactic centre as the reference point; how far could a solar system travel in 150 years?
Of course if that wormhole/time-vortex crossed space as well as time then it's all rather moot.
Posted by Krenim (Member # 22) on :
quote:Originally posted by Reverend: It's been a long time since astrophysics class for me (and what I learnt at the time has probably since been proven wrong) but I was under the impression that all the galaxies are moving away from a common central point (some are even colliding), though yes I do realise the big bang wasn't a literal explosion but a rapid expansion of space. Either way and however you phrase it, the galaxies are altering their relative positions from each other, so from what other fixed point would you gage it?
There is no fixed point from which you can gage the expansion of the universe. Here in the Milky Way, we see (mostly) every other galaxy moving away from us. The further away the galaxy is, the faster it moves away from us. However, that does not mean that we are at the center of the universe. A galaxy billions of light-years away observes the exact same thing.
quote:Originally posted by Reverend: Still, leaving that aside if you instead take the galactic centre as the reference point; how far could a solar system travel in 150 years?
The sun could travel about .11 light-years in 150 years with respect to the center of the galaxy. The stars in our galactic neck-of-the-woods move at similar rates.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Phht. I walk .11 light-years to work every day.
Posted by Joshua Bell (Member # 327) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: That's crazy, Josh: everyone knows that God made the universe 6000 years ago, and that carbon dating, astrophysics and rational thought are tools of Satan. Also, the universe revolves around Earth and it is flat.
Well, *duh*, but I was talking about the fictional Star Trek universe. You know, the one with FTL travel, energy beings, wormholes, time travel, engrams and katras, red matter... uh, wait...
quote: Phht. I walk .11 light-years to work every day.
Up hill in the snow both ways? I hear ya brother. Kids today... sheesh!
Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
quote:Originally posted by Joshua Bell: Tell me you didn't just ask that...
*sigh*
The Big Bang wasn't an explosion in space, it was an explosion *of* space.
1D analogy: today we live on an expanding rubber ruler; the Milky Way is at the 1cm mark, Andromeda is at the 3cm mark, etc. The ruler is gradually stretching out as time passes; in another billion years they will be 2.5cm apart. Looking back in time, they get closer together. At the Big Bang, the ruler had shrunk to zero length so there was no space between those points. (You have to imagine the ruler has no ends, though. You can pretend the ruler is bent into a loop if that helps.) There is no "middle" of the expansion - it all expands uniformally.
The 2D analogy is usually a balloon, with galaxies being on the surface. It is a 2D world so there is just the surface - east/west and north/south, but no in/out. As the balloon inflates the galaxies on the surface get farther apart since space itself is expanding, but there is no point in the flat universe of the surface that is the center of the expansion.
Derailing the conversation away from Romulus...
A few points and/or questions come to mind after reading this and doing research.
1. I can see how easy it is for people to be confused. You state that the universe is not expanding away from a central point and gave a nice expanding balloon illustration. I also read an illustration using an expanding loaf of raisin bread and how each raisin is expanding away from the other yet, from the POV of an individual raisin everything is expanding away from it. Neither illustration helps clarify this, IMO.
Each illustration shows an expansion. When the larger balloon/raisin bread is contrasted with it's smaller counterpart the expansion is detected. Yet a balloon or raisin bread expand from a common central point. If you look at the two you can measure the growth and backtrack to the central point of expansion.
I see what you're saying about the balloon surface. Just use the 2d balloon surface and ignore the expansion from the center of the balloon. Still, can you see how confusing this can be when everything we ever see expanding expands from a central point?
Is there nothing in real life that is currently doing the same thing (besides the Universe). Nothing you can point to and say "see, just like that!"
It would help.
2. Reverend mentions colliding galaxies. If everything is expanding away from everything else, then how is it they are colliding? Are they not moving/expanding at the same rate?
If an observer were stationed on one of these galaxies that is actually getting closer/colliding with another galaxy, what would it look like? Would his theories about the Big Bang and Expanding Universe differ from ours because, from his frame of reference, things are contracting toward his point of view instead of away from it?
Posted by Krenim (Member # 22) on :
quote:Originally posted by HerbShrump: Is there nothing in real life that is currently doing the same thing (besides the Universe). Nothing you can point to and say "see, just like that!"
Alas, no. Space-time is a 4D concept, which human beings have a tough time understanding. Hence, the usage of 3D, 2D, and 1D analogies.
quote:Originally posted by HerbShrump: 2. Reverend mentions colliding galaxies. If everything is expanding away from everything else, then how is it they are colliding? Are they not moving/expanding at the same rate?
Galaxies can collide because the gravitational forces between them can locally overcome the expansion of the universe.
From our point of view, the galaxies near us aren't moving away very fast. Gravity can overcome that fairly easily. It's only at much greater distances that galaxies appear to start moving pretty quickly and gravity can't keep up.
quote:Originally posted by HerbShrump: If an observer were stationed on one of these galaxies that is actually getting closer/colliding with another galaxy, what would it look like? Would his theories about the Big Bang and Expanding Universe differ from ours because, from his frame of reference, things are contracting toward his point of view instead of away from it?
Considering how our galaxy and the Andromeda Galaxy are moving towards each other, and will collide in several billion years, no. But again, that's local (cosmically speaking). As you get further from the Milky Way, galaxies overwhelmingly (if not unanimously) move away from us at increasingly faster rates.
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