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Posted by Treknophyle (Member # 509) on :

Not that I think technical details on an upcoming series need spoiler warnings, but never let it be said I spoiled some fan's surprise...

So the NX-01 won't have shields? WTF?
One nuke (just a leetle one) and that ship is toast. Even if the hull survives, the crew will be microwaved pizza pops.

I sense a non sequitor. Just because Earth's space technology is still primitive, I'll bet that TPTB will assume the same for all space-going races - so the enemy weapons will be just as weak as ours.

Nonsense!

Why wouldn't the Klingons have been using the same weapons and ships for centuries (some of them sure look old!). Why would their level and rate of development parallel our own? If only one race has pho-torps or phasers, they'll immolate the NX-01.

Dumb idea PTB!

Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :

Regarding hulls...armor, of course.

Regarding technology in general...one thing that people seem to forget is that technological advances in a society are optional. They tend to only happen in situations where heavy competition is occurring. Aside from medical benefits etc., there is little fundamental advantage to living in a high-technology society than a low-tech one.

Regarding phasers and photon torpedoes, just going by the show, they're pretty weak weapons.

Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :

"So the NX-01 won't have shields? WTF?
One nuke (just a leetle one) and that ship is toast. Even if the hull survives, the crew will be microwaved pizza pops."

In TWOK, the Enterprise got hit by several phaser beams and one torpedo without shields. It got messed up, but it didn't explode (which it really should have).

Later series too, have several instances of phasers and photorps hitting unshieded ships, and them not getting destroyed.

If 23rd and 24th century weapons aren't enough to destory ships with one hit, then I'm sure 22nd century weapons will be even worse.

Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :

...or not, if the goal of weaponry as time goes on becomes more to disable, as opposed to destroy, enemy ships.

Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :

How can you set a photon torpedo to "disable"? Put low-fat anti-matter in it?

Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :

It depends on the nature of the weapon.

(Are photon torpedoes even canonically anti-matter based? Just wondering.)

Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :

I just love that part in TUC where the BoP sends that torp at the Ent-A with her shields down, and it just blows right through the saucer, goes in one side and comes straight out the other...

I always find myself nodding and saying to myself or whoever's watching with me:

"Yep. That's what happens when you take a direct torpedo hit with no shields up..."

BTW, in TWOK I don't think the Ent was hit by a photorp w/o any shields. I think the Reliant just fired phasers, until later when the Ent's shields were back online. I always thought it was funny that they mostly only used phasers and not torps, but then again, Khan was only softening them up...

Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :

Frank: I think Star Trek: Generations may have something on antimatter being in the torpedoes. It's on the Enterprise-B bridge as Scotty's at the ops/helm/whatever station trying to come up with a way of escaping the nexus. I'm not totally sure, and my copy of the movie is missing.

About The Wrath of Khan, there is one thing that's bugged me about the first battle scene between the Enterprise and the Reliant. Right after Kirk says, "This is damn peculiar. Yellow Alert!" Saavik begins pressing buttons and orders, "Energize defense shields." So what's going on here?

Posted by J (Member # 608) on :

At yellow alert the shields go up but the weapons are on cold standby.

Only at red alert do both shields and weapons become hot by proceedure.

TNG TM

Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :

She says "Energizing defense FIELDS." Defense fields are like special forcefields that protect the bridge and other high-priority sections in risky situations. See the display right as/after she says it. They're not quite the same a shields, but they're along similar lines, IIRC.

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

"One nuke (just a leetle one) and that ship is toast. Even if the hull survives, the crew will be microwaved pizza pops."

I have to assume the hull is somehow radiation-proof. I don't know how, considering this technology doesn't even exist in the twenty-fourth century, but oh well...

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

quote:
there is little fundamental advantage to living in a high-technology society than a low-tech one

You really must send me a history book from your planet sometime, Frank. It must be fascinating reading.

Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :

Homo Erectus would disagree.

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

Yes, well, w/ a name like that, what do you expect from them?

Posted by HappyTarget (Member # 670) on :

PsyLiam:'How can you set a photon torpedo to "disable"? Put low-fat anti-matter in it?' Laughed my but off over that. Seriously, while I dont think it has been mentioned in Cannon, its been stated in various tech manuals, games and encyclopedias that a photon torp is a missle type weapon with a matter/anitmatter warhead. As to torps punching right through hulls like a giant bullet, just shows ya that writers will write up anything regardless of the "physics" behind the weapons they use. (like phasers all of a sudden being able to fire at warp speed!?! anyone know how thats possible?) I find it hard to believe that a thin metal case surrounding matter and antimatter kept appart by magnetic fields could survive passing through armour, couple floors, couple ceilings, and finally armour again and remain intact. Shure looked cool though.

Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on :

I must admit it's a bit odd. If you can generate a warp field, why not a simple force field?

Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :

Well, what are force fields made of, anyway? Without checking the TNGTM (I don't think it says much on this, anyway) my guess is they are another nifty application of graviton-manipulating technology (ie making the actual forcefield a thin sheet of repulsively charged particles that shove everything aside). Going by really-really-old rumours, Enterprise apparently only has a primitive artificial gravity system and no tractor beams, which would be indicative of a rather poor grasp of how to manipulate gravitons at this point in history.

Of couse, I guess a really small warp field could serve as a forcefield of sorts, but I can't imagine it being a particularly good use of a helluvalot of power.

Posted by Stingray (Member # 621) on :

Ya, that rumor bugged me too about the single gravity well. Its already been established that hover cars were in use in the early 2000's. If you think about it, all you have to do is reverse the technology from repelling gravitons to attracting them and you have non-rotating artificial gravity.

Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :

I'd lay money on some form of deflectors being invented during the run of the series.

About the "Energising Defense Fields". Didn't they do this before Kahn raised the Reliants shields?

I vaguely remember the sequence going.

Kirk: This is damn peculiar. Yellow alert
Saavik: Initialise defense fields.

Bloke whose name I can't remember: They still haven't raised their shields.
Kahn: Raise ours.

Spock: They've raised their shields.

Kahn: Target phasers

Spock: They're targetting phasers.
Kirk: Raise shields

Kahn: Fire!

If true, then the defense fields were definetly not deflector shields. I go by the "small forcefields protecting important areas" theory. I do also think that the movie implies that the Reliant fires before the Enterprise's shield goes up (we don't see a shield bubble, but then, they hadn't been "invented" by that point).

Also, Kirk's an idiot. Not for not raising shields immedietly (although that was stupid), but for not raising them when the Reliants went up. Idiot man.

But carry on.

Posted by Ryan McReynolds (Member # 28) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Stingray:
Ya, that rumor bugged me too about the single gravity well. Its already been established that hover cars were in use in the early 2000's. If you think about it, all you have to do is reverse the technology from repelling gravitons to attracting them and you have non-rotating artificial gravity.

Who said the hovercars used antigrav technology? Fans or quiet jets would do the same thing...

Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :

Liam, that's the way the dialogue flows, all right. And that sequence has always bugged. You have Saavik saying something about energizing the defense fields with her pressing a button. Then there's a cut to a graphic of the Enterprise will her deflector grid being highlighted.

I'll buy into it being a specialized force field erected around the critical points of the ship. Even if Khan was purposefully firing weak phaser blasts, it could explain why such a dangerously close phaser blast didn't rip into the horizontal intermix shaft and why the torpedo blast didn't do more damage to the bridge superstructure.

Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :

The diagram does NOT show shields going up around the ship. It shows some sort of force field (we are to presume, a DEFENSE FIELD) going up around the BRIDGE.

Woah, was I shouting? Sorry.

Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :

I didn't say that the deflector shields were going up. That was a different graphic. It had a dorsal view of the ship with little dots surrounding the ship as the shields were raised. The diagram I'm talking about showed the dorsal view of the ship and showed the deflector grid being highlighted. These were two different graphics, it definitely WAS NOT the deflector shields being raised.

Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :

Here we go, I found pictures of the displays I'm talking about over at Star Trek In Sound and Vision:

Here's the graphic for the deflector shields on the USS Reliant:
click here.

Here's the graphic for the display I was talking about: click here. And yes, I can see that the title for the screen says Intruder Alert. So this graphic really doesn't have much to do with the defense shields; it's more protocol of initiating the yellow alert.

Here's a bonus picture just for the heck of it: click here.

Posted by Stingray (Member # 621) on :

quote:
Who said the hovercars used antigrav technology? Fans or quiet jets would do the same thing...

Haven't they tried that w/ virtually no success?

Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :

Mr. Moller disagrees.

Posted by Ryan McReynolds (Member # 28) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Stingray:
Haven't they tried that [fan/jet hovercars] w/ virtually no success?

Did I miss the last few decades and it's 2040 already? They tried flying airplanes for quite a while before they got that right, too.

Posted by Stingray (Member # 621) on :

Ryan, let me preface my destruction of your argument with some

That way you can be assured that it's nothing personal.

There was success with airplanes. All attempts at hovercars w/ present day technology have failed rather miserably. As I recall, manufacturers attempted saucer/ufo shaped contraptions that were supposedly the future of aviation/transportation. Pfft.

And yes, I already see the post your typing based on the loophole above and recall I said present day technology - maybe when we can control gravitons - then there'll be hover cars.

And one for the road.

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

I suspect a major problem w/ hovercrafts would be braking.

And when they get full of eels...

Posted by Treknophyle (Member # 509) on :

I have always assumed that, when Saavik pressed the button to energize Defense Fields, she was warming-up (but not powering-up) the external grids and force-field generators - preparatory to actual power-up.

This would be a yellow alert function, getting ready for red alert.

Posted by targetemployee (Member # 217) on :

Since Star Trek's inception, there has been a tendency to have ships of opposing sides have roughly the same capabilities. In "Arena", the Gorn ship had warp drive, shields, and transporters. Do I need to mention the Enterprise's capabilities?

Posted by Yakaspat The Trekker (Member # 355) on :

When they get full of eels?!

LOL

Lance
TheTrekker's Officer's Bible:
http://thetrekker.homestead.com

Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :

That joke makes less sense than the decision to make "Police Academy: Mission to Moscow".

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

I'm not sure he was making a joke. I think he was just repeating mine, so people would know what he was laughing at.

Unless you mean you didn't get my joke. In that case, I'll have to never speak to you again.

Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :

Sorry. It's because your post is backa whole page, and my memory barely stretches to the beginning of this reply.

I thought it went:

Question: "Do I need to mention the Enterprise's capabilities?"

Answer: "When they get full of eels?! LOL"

That was the cause of my confusion and Police Academy Joke.

My God, I'm so bored, I'm watching Baywatch. By myself. With no-one to make witty remarks to. KILL ME NOW!

Posted by mrneutron (Member # 524) on :

re TWOK Reliant Attack and shields:

In the film it goes like this...

KIRK
This is damned perculiar. Yellow Alert.

SAAVIK
Energize defense fields.

UHURA
Captain. I'm getting a voice message. They say their chambers coil is overloading their comm system.

KIRK
Spock?

SPOCK
Scanning.
Their coil emissions are normal.

JOACHIM
They still haven't raised their shields.

KHAN
Raise ours.

SPOCK
Their shields are going up.

KHAN
Lock phasers on target.

JOACHIM
Locking phasers.

SPOCK
They're locking phasers.

KIRK
Raise shields!

KHAN
Fire!

***KABOOM!***

Interestingly, Kirk's slowness on the shields here might be partly an editorial paux fax. I was thumbing through a copy of the revised final draft screenplay for the film, and it reads like this...

KIRK
This is damned perculiar. Yellow, alert.

SAAVIK
Energize defense fields.

UHURA
I'm getting a voice message... wait... short range band. They say their Chambers coil is shorting their COMM system.

KIRK
Spock?

SPOCK
Scanning...

JOACHIM
They still haven't raised their shields.

KHAN
Careful: Not all at once. The engine room. Lock on target and prepare to fire.

JOACHIM
Locking phasers on target.

SPOCK
Their coil emissions are normal...
Wait: their shields are going up.
They're locking phasers--!

KIRK
Raise shields! Energize phasers, stand by to--

***KABOOM***

So in the script spock reports the shields and phasers together and Kirk instantly responds. They way it's cut in the film it's like Kirk hear about the shields and does nothing until the phasers are locked. What a difference an edit makes.

[ July 22, 2001: Message edited by: mrneutron ]

Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

Still, I like the aired version better. Kirk is in space for the first time after piloting a desk or at most some sort of a simulator for ghu knows how long. He's badly out of practice. What he's looking for in space is nostalgy and adventure - he's not trying to re-enact his spotless cadet years, but his reckless later days. Of course he will screw up - the question is, when and how badly. And there's a lot of drama in the fact that it's NOW and VERY badly.

As for the general topic of this thread... I *can* buy the idea that the technology encountered by Archer will be the same used by Archer, while that encountered by Kirk is that used by Kirk. This just requires the assumption that something swept the local space clear of advanced races a while ago, leaving the field empty for the humans and others to play. Then there would be a situation where one race leads, and others struggle to catch up, right until the players moved out of local space and ran into an area of space that was *not* swept clean.

What would do the sweeping? War, probably - a former superpower would subjugate the area of space and homogenize it under its rule, so when the superpower would fall, the whole bunch of sectors would fall with it and descend to anarchy or worse. The winner of the war might perish as well, or then be weakened so that it would only take possession of the core worlds of the loser, while leaving his fringe areas (including Earth/Qo'noS/Romulus) in ruins and unclaimed.

Another possibility would be a Borg raid, after which the planets would be left to fallow for a few hundred millennia and develop technology to be reaped in the next raid.

So Archer would face only ships that would match his, *roughly*. The differences would soon be removed by a round of escalation with the most advanced enemy. By Kirk's time, no real differences would remain - but the newer, faster ships would take Kirk to regions of space where more advanced enemies dwell. However, this time the speed of expansion would control the rate at which new enemies would crop up, so if there ever was an excessively powerful opponent, Starfleet could simply slow down or retreat, and gradually adjust to the required level of technology.

Timo Saloniemi