This episode was a lot better than some of the conclusions to other Star Trek two-parters. There were still some problems. I think Soval and his ambassadorial entourage are being too emotional for Vulcans; I groaned when they stormed out of Forrest's office after T'Pol's speech. Daniels and Archer's interplay was all right, but during parts of the altered future it seemed to as if Daniel is not a very well-trained temporal agent. And, I really think that Enterprise should have headed back to Earth for repairs and an overhaul. Aren't shakedown cruises usually a year anyway? I know it's not good drama to spend a year in drydock testing how the rivets held up, but it'd be more realistic to include some sort of debriefing and repairs.
The visual effects, I think, were good aside from the phase cannon screw-up in the pursuit sequence at the end. I doubt the forward phase cannons have super-extenders to reach around the hull (although if they pop out of the ventral and dorsal saucer, that'd be a possible explanation. However, they're don't seem to be holes in the proper places for those shots). The pyrotechnics for the fake core breach were good, but I can't believe they put anything explosive near the warp core.
Overall, though, I think the story was pretty good and that the episode flowed well. Nothing about the characterizations strikes as being abnormal, and I think Blalock and Park did pretty well portraying someone who had been (probably) tortured and who was claustrophobic. Mayweather, as usual, is underutilized.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Good points all around. Daniels' freak out was due to the fact that he's single-handedly destroyed the timeline and trillions of lives. I thought he handled being history's biggest fuck-up rather well. No crying or anything.
Mayweather is very under used, but consider that the one episode catering to his background was a real snore.....
I loved the Vulcan ship at the episode's ending, but I have some suspicions that the main hull was a re-use of the Relativity CGI model. (of course I could be smoking crack...again.) Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :
Oh, I completely understand Daniels freaking out. He did handle that part well. A few instances of abject horror, and then he was busy trying to find the fault and a way to correct it. The part I was getting out was telling Archer bits and pieces of the future (like the Federation) and letting him wonder around the library.
One thing I neglected to mention was the uniform Daniels wore. It looks vaguely similar to the special biomenetic (I believe that's correct) suits worn by the enhanced Suliban. I'm wondering if that ribbed look is functional or something.
Posted by Free ThoughtCrime America (Member # 480) on :
It's ribbed for her pleasure.
Posted by J (Member # 608) on :
Personally it's possible for them to overhaul the ship and still have good drama. They did it on Voyager during that one episode when Harry got his own command--- they should have had that episode four years sooner.
They can do it on Enterprise a lot better... this time they can go back to Earth... someone can try and steal Enterprise [because they think their better to Captain it]... yadda yadda yadda. Drama is what you make it--- necessary plots are of your own creation. If you don't want to have to overhaul the ship, DON'T BREAK IT!
It works out this way: To be a good writer you have to be smart. To be a Hollywood writer, requirement one is stupidity.
Posted by E. Cartman (Member # 256) on :
I wasn't particularly enthoused about Daniels and Archer pulling a MacGyver to jury-rig that temporal thingamajigg... way too DEM for my taste (those are bad! EVIL!).
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
if (DEM == "Deus Ex Machina") { $me = "TEH ACRONYMN MASTORRR!!1!!" }
Posted by Dukhat (Member # 341) on :
I'm continuing the thread here instead of continuing the one from S&T because, as someone rightfully stated, the plot info should be here, not there. Some spoilers ahead...
Anyway, after actually seeing the episode, I now feel that the "gratuitous skin flashing for ratings" wasn't as bad as I previously thought before. Without spoiling anything, I understand why Hoshi didn't go back to her quarters to get a new shirt. I also didn't think T'Pol showed any more skin than she did in the decon scene. However, after seeing the trailer for next week's episode, I again wasn't amused at the blatant sex-for-ratings ploy with a nude profile of T'Pol's ancestor behind the tent (if anyone has seen the trailer knows what I'm talking about).
Besides that, however, I did enjoy the second part. I too thought Soval was acting quite irrational for who he's supposed to be. I think he needs to serously think about Kolinahr...
Did anyone notice that Daniels looked a bit wierd? It seemed to me that his hair was plastered on like a wig, & his skin had a somewhat artificial quality about it. He reminded me of Jude Law's pimp android character from A.I. I wonder if any of that was intentional.
One question: The D'Kyr's mission was to retrieve T'Pol & Phlox. Why then did the ship leave without them?
Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :
The Next Generation episode did handled the Enterprise's repairs in "Family" pretty well, I think. I did not see all of the particular Voyager episode you mentioned, J, so I don't have an opinion on it. Although I do admit that there are ways incorporating drama into a starship refit.
Had the ending to "Shockwave, Part II" been altered, they could have spent an episode with Enterprise in drydock while Archer and T'Pol have to persuade the Vulcans and Starfleet to allow the mission to continue. You could do the next episode with Enterprise being stolen by a disgruntled Starfleet captain who think he could do a better job, but that would present problems in how he control the ship and what he would do with it. This episode could have Archer seeking the help of a Vulcan starship to reclaim Enterprise. An interesting idea, but it would be difficult to get the justifications in place.
And, since Mark dropped in while I was posting: I think the D'kor left without T'Pol and Phlox because everything was right with the universe. That is to say, we are to believe that the mission continues with T'Pol and Phlox remaining aboard thanks to an agreement between Starfleet and the Vulcans. However, they didn't say as much in the episode. We're to assume it. I think. Definitely should have been clearer.
I think we're being given hints that Daniels isn't human (or completely, anyway). His face appeared somewhat blotchly during some of the library scenes. Plus, the man tasted the copper and deduced that it was copper. Archer gave him an odd glance when he did that, but nothing was said.
Posted by Grokca (Member # 722) on :
quote:Plus, the man tasted the copper and deduced that it was copper.
You trying to tell me you don't know what copper tastes like, where you been man?
Posted by Dukhat (Member # 341) on :
Another interesting thing I observed was that Commander Williams didn't have a patch on his sleeve. I suppose that means either he was not assigned to a particular ship, or someone was just lazy about making a new patch for a crewmember other than an Enterprise officer. Too bad, we could at least have gotten another pre-Federation Starfleet ship design without the VFX people actually having to make a new ship.
However, I am pleased with the D'Kyr. For the few seconds it appeared on screen, TPTB could have just used the Surak again. Instead, they chose to make a new ship, knowing that it would most likely be used again in the future. Kudos to the VFX guys!
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
About Cmdr. Williams not wearing a patch, it's probably (or possibly) because he's assigned to SF Command. Forrest doesn't wear a patch either.
Posted by Capped In Mic (Member # 709) on :
i noticed that in the opening scenes at least, of Broken Bow, they were very careful to not show the left sleeve, possibly becuase they couldnt be bothered to make a new patch.
(kinda like all the facedown guys and the guys arm over the patches on the Defiant in 'Tholian Web')
Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :
Actually, no, I don't know what copper tastes like. And I'm not about to start licking electrical wires to find out, either. Posted by J (Member # 608) on :
just go for pennies....
I really wish they would have had Daniels try to explain a little bit of the time paradox. It would have been nice for Archer to end it saying "OK, that's more than enough information."
Posted by Woodside Kid (Member # 699) on :
$ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $
Anyone else find the part about Daniels learning time travel specifics in high school alarming? Considering how easily you can royally screw up the timeline if you're not careful, isn't that like giving high school students nowadays a course on building H-bombs?
Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
Or he could have just looked it up on the Galactic Wide Web.....
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
Well, it would make sense, IF the temporal police had shielding, and thus could undo any changes. Which they should have. But didn't. Perhaps the temporal shielding only withstands temporal events of a certain magnitude, and an eight-century explosion was too much for them to handle? And the publicly available time travel devices aren't powerful enough to reach back that far?
Or maybe "high school" has a different definition in 1100 years, and he was actually thirty and well-trained at the time...
Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :
Daniels was not real specific in his description. Maybe the only high schoolers who had access to the temporal studies classroom were those on the Super Wesley Crusher From the 31st Century advanced placement with honors transcript. And, for some protection, maybe they use something similar to the second brake pedal used in drivers' education vehicles.
Posted by Cadet Sorak (Member # 874) on :
quote: That is to say, we are to believe that the mission continues with T'Pol and Phlox remaining aboard thanks to an agreement between Starfleet and the Vulcans. However, they didn't say as much in the episode. We're to assume it. I think. Definitely should have been clearer.
Why bother??? Sci-fi shows these days are getting more intellectual...um...intullectu...they are getting smarter.
Seriously, they make you think. And that's good in any kind of program. Watching TV isn't about staring at the screen watching the "pretty visual effects" and guessing the entire plot 10 minutes into the program! Personally, I like it when they keep you guessing.
Posted by Dukhat (Member # 341) on :
Personally, I don't.
Posted by J (Member # 608) on :
quote:Originally posted by Woodside Kid: Anyone else find the part about Daniels learning time travel specifics in high school alarming? Considering how easily you can royally screw up the timeline if you're not careful, isn't that like giving high school students nowadays a course on building H-bombs?
I don't know which high school or when you went to high school--- but I learned who Einstein was in 2nd grade, I had the history of the A-Bomb by 5th... by 7th grade I was not only capable of learning about the Manhattan project but I would also have been able to grasp some of the science they were using at the time. Now that I'm in 12th grade, I can watch a PBS special on the Manhattan project and never get lost.
As the massive stockpiles of nuclear weapons that the US and USSR built during the cold war testifies to... building an H-bomb is not that hard, the hard part was drudging through the theoretical stuff and then getting your hands on certain materials [Uranium 238 for example was a great worry during the Manhattan project].
Now having said all that, it is quite a bit impossible to gather all the pieces to build an H-bomb. The Uranium [or if you want a really big boom, Plutonium] alone requires a great amount of facilities to produce. This is what prevents a high schooler who knows about the H-bomb and pretty much all of it's particulars [I don't, just in case you got that impression] from building one.
--- However, your point about Daniels was taken. I do agree that it was odd they would give him knowledge like that when he had the ability to act upon it, especially with something as important as the timeline at risk. [The way he said it also made it seem that he scared the crap out of a few people in the past with that giant floating head deal.] Perhaps he didn't have the ability to change the timeline at all, maybe we just read into it too much and there was something that prevented such damage?
Headline: Temporal beat cops prevent young person from committing acts of Temporal graffiti.
Posted by Ryan McReynolds (Member # 28) on :
It's always possible that Daniels was just being a smart ass.
Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on :
Temporal Graffitti: Writing "Kilroy will have been here" on the newly-built Great Pyramid.
Posted by Free ThoughtCrime America (Member # 480) on :
Seven year old kids are doing calculus in the Star Trek universe. Theoretical temporal mechanics, is, after all, all math, and it shouldn't be too hard for high school students. Perhaps it is even considered to be part of a well-rounded education, much like physics is today.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
This episode, specifically the temporal cold war stuff, gave me a real early X-Files vibe. Consider, we still have no idea whether that planet in the future was Earth, or "Earth as we know it." The absence of Mr. Hogan's fuzzy visage is never explained. Now, these are all the things that made me eagerly anticpate the next episode of The X-Files in, say, 1995. But they were also the things that made me unhappy and unsatisfied in 2001. So, I don't know, I guess what I'm saying is that we should maybe get a little in the way of facts here. Not many, and not at all at once, to be sure. But, you know, maybe something. This season. Yes.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Hogan? Do you mean that the Stalag 13 gang is behind the Temporal Cold War?
...I suppose you're going to say now that you meant "Mr. Horan," the actor who plays Future Guy. Posted by Dukhat (Member # 341) on :
Well, basically we as the unintelligent, moronic average Star Trek viewer (at least according to TPTB), must logically take everything that Daniels says at face value. Therefore:
1. The planet Daniels took Archer was the 31st century Earth.
2. This Earth was not the same Earth Daniels originated from, but rather the result of his tampering with the timeline.
3. This new 31st century Earth has been basically unchanged since the 22nd century; that is, destroyed.
4. This destruction took place after 2151, but before the founding of the Federation in 2161. It is unclear who destroyed Earth, but from what we know, my guess would be the Romulans, as I'm guessing that FutureGuy is a Romulan. We don't know why FG couldn't be contacted, but it could possibly go along with the changed timeline. It is also possible that if he IS a Romulan, then the changed timeline prevented him from needing to muck about in the 22nd century timeline in the first place, which was why Silik couldn't contact him. So in essence, Daniels unwittingly did FG's work for him.
5. We don't know if this Earth reverted back to "normal" once Archer returned to the 22nd century, but I'm pretty sure it did. We also don't know if Silik will be contacted by FG again, especially since he's been captured.
6. It's also possible that everything I've said here is totally wrong.
Posted by Spekkio (Member # 729) on :
It could be the Romulans by the way that Archer was told not to read the book about the Romulans...
Posted by Capped In Mic (Member # 709) on :
gee whiz, really?
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
I'm thinking Archer was told not to read that book simply because no one knew about the Romulans yet.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Thought of the day - isn't Silik a prisoner now? And when we see him again, shouldn't he be with at least a couple more Suliban? Unless Trip & Co. were running around with pistols on Kill...
Ditto for cell ships - shouldn't they have a couple in the shuttlebay by now?
Mark
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
"By the time he wakes up we'll be long gone."
The implication being that Silik (and probably his pals, if stunned) were dumped on the borrowed pod and left behind.
Why? Well, what good does it do them to hold him? The episode made it clear that the real brains of the operation is the Suliban's future contact, so I doubt interrogating Silik would reveal much.
More to the point, while, if it were me, I'd certainly want to keep him for awhile anyway, what can they do with him? We've yet to see if the ship has a brig. And if they really want to get information out of him, they'll have to deliver him to Earth. (Perhaps this was the other side's plan? Get Enterprise sent back home to deal with the Suliban problem and their mission is just as sunk as if it had been canceled.)
Also, if the Suliban happen to think Silik is important, they'll come back for him. They only avoided destroying the Enterprise because he was being held hostage, so they're obviously willing to go to some lengths to secure his safety. Enterprise is no match for the Suliban. Earth itself might be hard pressed to defend against them, should they try to break him out of some prison in Siberia, say.
Having said all that, while I think living Silik behind makes sense, it seems to be a large enough issue to deserve a little screentime. But, I suppose when you've only got 40 or so minutes...
I'll bet the Tandarans would be none to pleased at this development.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
He probably let Silik go for the same reason he never asked the Ferengi what they were called.
Of course, we have yet to figure out what that reason was...
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Still doesn't explain why the first thing they DIDN'T do was keep the cell ship and send at least one of them back home for analysis. I mean, they may not have much transporter tech (and why is that, I wonder?), but teeny pod-sized craft are capable of keeping up with Starfleet's finest at warp 4 or higher - in the TNG era the shuttles that size STILL can't do that. I'd like to think Archer would like to keep one of those in his garage...
Mark
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Not to sound like the resident apologist again, but could Enterprise hold one of the cellships? They aren't that big, but they're bigger than a shuttlepod.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 24) on :
Does it matter? The things have their own warp drive...they could just deliver it to the Vulcan ship which should have plenty of room. Plus they could just fly it straight to Earth in oh...a few days, judging by the distances to the Klingon homeworld Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Sorry, but this episode just aired here, and I don't feel like starting a new thread.
Perhaps Archer knew that if they kept the cell ship, the Vulcans would demand it. And Archer doesn't want that, because the Vulcans are big poo poo heads?
One thing does confuse me. The "Romulan Star Empire" thing was obviously a nice little bit of forshadowing for their appearence later this season, but...who wrote that book? Daniels said that all of history was okay up to the Warp 5 program, and then it was changed. Earth of 2151 has no idea who the Romulans are. So, who wrote that book? Did the Romulans attack Earth, devestating the entire surface apart from one lone author who decided to while away the final years of his lonesome life by writing a book about the planets destroyers.
Also, isn't this the first time that "Romulan STAR Empire" has been said in, what, 30 years?
Posted by Warbadden Hawkins (Member # 905) on :
no offense but what specific country do you live in psy..... wouldnt it be faster to have someone capture and encode a episode so you could dl it, rather than wait 3 and a half months.... even to dl that on dial up wouldnt take 4 months...
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Oh, yes, that's much easier.
Posted by Warbadden Hawkins (Member # 905) on :
well for me its easier but for him it WOULD be FASTER. I usually associate fast with easy sorry SOL.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
That's OK. Some PEOPLE have different PRIORITIES.
Capitals!
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Some people also have problems with violating copyright laws.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Uh, yeah. That is, uh, wrong too.
Posted by Warbadden Hawkins (Member # 905) on :
its not violating any copyright laws unless i charge for a copy.... as long as the copy is for backup and personell viewing .... but you wouldnt understand that stuff....
Posted by Ultra Magnus (Member # 239) on :
Akin to your lack of understanding of english?
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
The fair use law is pretty vague...
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
quote:Originally posted by Warbadden Hawkins: its not violating any copyright laws unless i charge for a copy.... as long as the copy is for backup and personell viewing .... but you wouldnt understand that stuff....
That's true. But you were also advocating the use of file-sharing networks, in which one person makes one recording and distributes it to many people. That is NOT "fair use."
Also, I could mention the DMCA, but that would be a Flameboard topic. (Note: I do not approve of the DMCA, but it's still a law at the moment.)
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
quote:Originally posted by Warbadden Hawkins: its not violating any copyright laws unless i charge for a copy.... as long as the copy is for backup and personell viewing .... but you wouldnt understand that stuff....
i don't even understand what you just said.
Posted by Warbadden Hawkins (Member # 905) on :
Im sorry but I did not say that this had to be downloaded off of a file sharing network. This could be merely downloaded off of a persons FTP site with a exclusive username and password. This obviously has to be a person you kow and someone that knows how to capture video and use divx encoding.
Posted by Ultra Magnus (Member # 239) on :
Holy crap you are the Ub�r1337. Move over, Mitnick.
Posted by Warbadden Hawkins (Member # 905) on :
only 12 days till mitnick is truely free
Posted by Ultra Magnus (Member # 239) on :
Truly, even.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by Warbadden Hawkins: no offense but what specific country do you live in psy..... wouldnt it be faster to have someone capture and encode a episode so you could dl it, rather than wait 3 and a half months.... even to dl that on dial up wouldnt take 4 months...
Except, y'know, it would look shit.
I'm obviously in the crazy catagory here of realising that you only get one first time at watching anything, and not wanting that first time to be plagued by having to endure viewing through a tiny window at a shoddy frame rate.
Also, y'know, not that bothered. Really. At all. I can quite happily wait. On the plus side, we now get a new episode every week, with no breaks, so we'll be catching up.
quote: its not violating any copyright laws unless i charge for a copy.... as long as the copy is for backup and personell viewing .... but you wouldnt understand that stuff....
Not to sound crazy, but if you make a copy in order to give to someone else surely it's not "personell viewing".
Personally, I view it on about the same level as getting someone to tape the episode and post it to me. Illegal, but not in a way that anyone cares about.
But as I said, I'm not bothered. I didn't watch The Two Towers in a tiny window on my display, and I can quite happily wait a couple of months for Enterprise.
Posted by E. Cartman (Member # 256) on :
"I'm obviously in the crazy catagory here of realising that you only get one first time at watching anything, and not wanting that first time to be plagued by having to endure viewing through a tiny window at a shoddy frame rate."
No.
Movies like AotC and FotR have to be SEEN to be believed. There's just no substitute for that silver screen eXPerience� factor.
But.
When it comes to run-of-the-mill episodes of a so-so TV show (honestly, I don't find Enterprise quite as invigorating as, say, DS9, but it's still Trek, so I keep up as a matter of course), I can live with poorer image quality and jerky framerates*.
*Which, surprisingly, aren't.
Posted by Warbadden Hawkins (Member # 905) on :
Wow for the first time ever I have 1 person that nearly aggrees with me!!!
Psy I also agree with you that their is a "thing" about watching somthing for the first time. But Still I can capture enterprise at a higher frame rate than its shown from my cable company. 1hr of 32 fps at 640x 480 with nearly no errors is about 600mb. Unless your box is not fast enough to play the video I have to disagree that captureed video is worse quality. Unless of course you get the ripped copy from someone who doesnt know how to use thier software!!
[ January 10, 2003, 11:13: Message edited by: Warbadden Hawkins ]
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Downloading a 600mb file would take a fair amount of time on a 56K modem though. And, to be honest, I have better things to do.
(Okay, that's a lie. But still, something.)
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
quote:Originally posted by TSN: He probably let Silik go for the same reason he never asked the Ferengi what they were called.
Of course, we have yet to figure out what that reason was...
Correct me if I am wrong, but has anyone stopped to think that in "Silent Enemy" the name of the alien attacking Enterprise was not mentioned? Since this is true, why is it that no one bitches about this? I mean really...if WE didnt know the ferengi werent the ferengi wouldnt they just we another 'silent enemy' so to say? Anyone see what I am saying?
Granted I would have preferred to NOT see the ferengi in Enterprise as well, I think those actors could have easily been made to be, perhaps, Tellerites or something (trade in the elephant ears for a pig snout) and that would have at least not betrayed the feelings of the viewers and the semi-pre-established Ferengi first contact (Battle of Maxia? vs. Enterprise? vs. Roswell, NM?).
Otherwise I do believe I have a valid point here when I say that just because WE know the ferengi are the ferengi, doesnt mean that the enterprise crew have to know. Would "silent enemy" really have been any different if those were really Species 8472??
Which is another thing...Janeway never bothered to ask their name either, even when they discovered Chakotay he identified them as 8472 and they never bothered to correct him. I believe I have made my point about name calling. Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
But Archer talked to the Ferengi. He basically had them as prisoners for a time. He should have asked who they were, so he could put it in his report to Starfleet. It was sloppy writing used to make sure humans still didn't associate the name "Ferengi" w/ big ears, big heads, and short statures until TNG.
As for Janeway and Species 8472, she probably didn't ask their names because they already had a name in her mind: "Species 8472". Archer, on the other hand, didn't have anything to call the Ferengi, so he should have thought to ask.
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
Janey had just as much opportunity to ask their name once they became friends, hell 8472 didnt call humans by their borg designation. Hell for that matter, Arctus or whatever the Dauntless dude was only referred to by his Borg designation as well, Janey never asked him, only another of MANY examples seen throughout all of the series that names were not designated for species where communications were established.
And I just cant see Archer going, "uhhh...hey guys, for the record, whats the name your species again?" when his primary concern was recapturing his ship.
I never said the episode was perfect, but back to my original theory: HAD WE NOT previously seen the Ferengi then WE wouldnt have known it to be a Ferengi and all of this wouldnt mattered, so, so what? Would you have been happier if it was klingons? I think people look into this way too much and ASSUME way too much regarding what Archers duties ARE and SHOULD BE. Perhaps this all is just a lame way of showing his naivity.
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
Errr.... Janey? The hair will have it's revenge for that.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Uh, Archer did ask who the Ferengi were, and they refused to tell him.
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
better yet; even though i dont really recall that, contrary to all the bitchin, everyone else musta missed it too.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
If he asked them while they had all the weapons, sure they'd refuse. But wouldn't he ask again after he had control?
And, if the writers had put in a species we hadn't seen before, that's fine. We could assume he asked them their names off-screen, or something. But, in this case, we know it was just a convenient cop-out so they could refrain from technically violating continuity, w/o having to be original.
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