Neat. I especially would have liked to see Shran as a crewmember and a Guinan cameo.
Posted by Fabrux (Member # 71) on :
T'Pol's Romulan heritage would have made for an interesting storyline.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
Except that it would have violated the idea that nobody knew what Romulans looked like until the 23rd century...unless she kept the whole thing to herself for at least a century.
Posted by Sean (Member # 2010) on :
The borg queen idea might have been interesting. Maybe for a two hour special. As long as we didn't see, or hear much from the borg after that. Seeing a starbase being built, and becomming Enterprise's "base" ( as long as she wasn't a permanent attachment like the Defiant)would be cool too.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
I dunno... Inside the Enterprise storyline, I could easily see a cover-up taking place to try to prevent the fledgling Federation from being broken up over pointless suspicions.
Posted by WizArtist II (Member # 1425) on :
I really didn't like the introduction of the Borg on Earth during the Enterprise time period. It just did not make sense. It would only further stretch credibility to make the Borg Queen a human from that time as well. Until Q made his appearance the Borg were unaware of Earth. For a human of that period to get "The Royal Jelly" treatment and become the Queen and then somehow forget all about Earth? That just doesn't work.
I will grant that I like some of the fanboy stuff trying to tie in with the other series. However, there comes a point where its no longer a nod to the previous episodes we've see but becomes a desperate attempt to draw viewers wholly on nostalgia with little real substance. That is the feeling that I had through most of Enterprise. It tried so hard to scream "We are Star Trek TOO! SEE all the stuff we do like the other Treks?" that it had no feel of its own.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
I actually quite liked the Borg appearance ENT, it made the Borg seam threatening for the first time in ages. Not that I like the idea of the Borg queen being human, mind. Aside from the continuity issues you mentioned, it's already been established that the Queens are Species 125 while humans are Species 5618.
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
Yeah I see you point Wiz. Although most people enjoyed season 4, it was basically a repository for TOS backstory. And would we want 3 more years of an RPG Sourcebook?
Posted by Daniel Butler (Member # 1689) on :
The Borg Queen thing was just a pitch; that made it sound like it may have been rejected. I like to think Coto wouldn't've bought it.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
Yeah I get that impression too. From what I gather Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stevens have a bad habit of using continuity as a bit of a crutch. Not as bad as Greg Cox, mind. A little is fine, especially in a prequel but there has to be room for something original or it gets too cute.
Now having Alice Kringe play a lone refugee from a race of all female clones...that'd be OK.
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 138) on :
I would imagine the Ent Borg was already discussed. I just saw the episode myself for the first time.
On the one hand it might have messed with continuity a little. Didn't it state they sent a signal to the Delta Quadrant which would reach the rest of the collective in the 24th century. And before Q flung the E-D into the Delta Quadrant there was an episode dealing with mysterious attacks on both Federation and Romulan bases which would later match Borg attacks. It would be logical to assume the Borg got the signal from the 22nd century, which caused the first attacks in TNG. Then Q sent the E-D to the DQ, and from there the Borg pursued the E-D back to the AQ.
Posted by Sean (Member # 2010) on :
Which may also explain why the FC borg differ from the TNG borg. If they were sent right when the signal from Regeneration reached them, then the borg on the "borg home planet" or central hub, or whatnot would have 200 years to evolve and change their appearance. THe FC borg might have used their transwarp to get to sector 001 in First Contact, having developed it some time ago, but after the first ship left.
Back to Enterprise now...
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
Or the change might be due to assimilating new technology between Best of Both Worlds and First Contact.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
quote:Originally posted by Hobbes: I would imagine the Ent Borg was already discussed. I just saw the episode myself for the first time.
On the one hand it might have messed with continuity a little. Didn't it state they sent a signal to the Delta Quadrant which would reach the rest of the collective in the 24th century. And before Q flung the E-D into the Delta Quadrant there was an episode dealing with mysterious attacks on both Federation and Romulan bases which would later match Borg attacks. It would be logical to assume the Borg got the signal from the 22nd century, which caused the first attacks in TNG. Then Q sent the E-D to the DQ, and from there the Borg pursued the E-D back to the AQ.
Of course, for all we know the Borg might not have received the signal at all, or if they did they might not have got it until AFTER the encounter at J-25, when they were already sending scouts out to the Alpha & Beta Quadrants. The signal may or may not have caused them to focus on Earth specifically. Of course that's just one of a dozen or so possible scenarios.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
quote:Originally posted by Reverend: Except that it would have violated the idea that nobody knew what Romulans looked like until the 23rd century...unless she kept the whole thing to herself for at least a century.
She might not have known what her father looked like!?! Maybe she thought she had more Vulcan features. OK it doesn't make a whole lot of sense. *Shrug*.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mars Needs Women: Yeah I see you point Wiz. Although most people enjoyed season 4, it was basically a repository for TOS backstory. And would we want 3 more years of an RPG Sourcebook?
That "royal Jelly" horseshit was just used in a novel- made the Borg seem half as threatening and quadruplegic Pakleds.
Seriously- the book sucked like a hooker in an open airlock.
Posted by Fabrux (Member # 71) on :
I actually quite enjoyed it.
Posted by Daniel Butler (Member # 1689) on :
The hooker in the airlock?
Posted by Fabrux (Member # 71) on :
No, the book he's referring to.
Posted by Josh (Member # 1884) on :
If Data were here he'd probably correct with with it blowinglike a hooker in an airlock, not sucking.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Which isn't really a "correction" since both are accurate.
Posted by Sean (Member # 2010) on :
From the hooker's point of view, yes. But technically, you are blown out into space, not sucked.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
Oh dear...
Posted by WizArtist II (Member # 1425) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon:
quote:Originally posted by Mars Needs Women: Yeah I see you point Wiz. Although most people enjoyed season 4, it was basically a repository for TOS backstory. And would we want 3 more years of an RPG Sourcebook?
That "royal Jelly" horseshit was just used in a novel- made the Borg seem half as threatening and quadruplegic Pakleds.
Seriously- the book sucked like a hooker in an open airlock.
Are you kidding me? Someone actually took that premise and wrote a book on it? I said it more to make a flippant cutesy remark but to take the notion and make it a novel is beyond ridiculous.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"But technically, you are blown out into space, not sucked."
As I said, they're the same thing. You get carried out of the airlock by a movement of air. That air is blowing out of the ship. That air is also being sucked out of the ship. It just depends which point-of-view you want to describe it from.
When you drink something through a straw, do you say that you are sucking it into your mouth, or that it is blowing into your mouth?
Posted by Daniel Butler (Member # 1689) on :
Well, I think it has to do with the fact that matter wants to move into a vacuum; a vacuum, being by definition nothing, can't "do" anything like suck. Matter 'wants' to go into an area of low pressure because of how molecules and atoms move in a fluid - vibrating, bouncing off each other, and if there is a larger container with less matter, they logically spread out more. But that's a function of the matter, not the container; or if you like, the air, not the vacuum.
Posted by Wes (Member # 212) on :
quote:Originally posted by WizArtist II: I really didn't like the introduction of the Borg on Earth during the Enterprise time period. It just did not make sense. It would only further stretch credibility to make the Borg Queen a human from that time as well. Until Q made his appearance the Borg were unaware of Earth. For a human of that period to get "The Royal Jelly" treatment and become the Queen and then somehow forget all about Earth? That just doesn't work.
I will grant that I like some of the fanboy stuff trying to tie in with the other series. However, there comes a point where its no longer a nod to the previous episodes we've see but becomes a desperate attempt to draw viewers wholly on nostalgia with little real substance. That is the feeling that I had through most of Enterprise. It tried so hard to scream "We are Star Trek TOO! SEE all the stuff we do like the other Treks?" that it had no feel of its own.
That's funny, because when it did have a 'feel of its own', during Seasons 1 and 2, it wasn't nearly as good as when it was more "Star Trek Prequel" during season 4.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by WizArtist II:
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon:
quote:Originally posted by Mars Needs Women: Yeah I see you point Wiz. Although most people enjoyed season 4, it was basically a repository for TOS backstory. And would we want 3 more years of an RPG Sourcebook?
That "royal Jelly" horseshit was just used in a novel- made the Borg seem half as threatening and quadruplegic Pakleds.
Seriously- the book sucked like a hooker in an open airlock.
Are you kidding me? Someone actually took that premise and wrote a book on it? I said it more to make a flippant cutesy remark but to take the notion and make it a novel is beyond ridiculous.
Yep- it's called Resistance. A novel wherein Picard voulentarily becomes Locutous to "hear" the Borg's comminacations and Dr. Crusher just happened to save all the nanobots from when Picard was a Borg...but also the prostetic arm and black rubber suit too- amazing all the crap that survived the old ship's demise, no? And that Starfleet would allow such a collection no less... Posted by Sean (Member # 2010) on :
So, in essence, he was re-assimilated. I think we've seen before that when re-assimilated, a borg seems to have it's identity wiped, while keeping the same designation. So, this locutus wouldn't be the same high ranking Locutus that was originally created, would he? It still sounds like a horrible book anyways.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
Best not to dwell.
Posted by WizArtist II (Member # 1425) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: A novel wherein Picard voulentarily becomes Locutous to "hear" the Borg's comminacations and Dr. Crusher just happened to save all the nanobots from when Picard was a Borg...but also the prostetic arm and black rubber suit too- amazing all the crap that survived the old ship's demise, no? And that Starfleet would allow such a collection no less...
Unbelievable. LITERALLY. After all the angst shown from Picard in first contact, there is NO WAY he would ever voluntarily allow himself to be assimilated no matter if it meant the end of the universe. It kind of reminds me of another novel where the Doomsday device was actually a prototype weapon meant to fight the Borg. I hate it when they try to MAKE a story by pulling some device/plot/person from the past and tie every Trek into one big overarching story. It almost always comes off as contrived or preposterous. OR WORSE.
Posted by Dukhat (Member # 341) on :
quote:Unbelievable. LITERALLY. After all the angst shown from Picard in first contact, there is NO WAY he would ever voluntarily allow himself to be assimilated no matter if it meant the end of the universe. It kind of reminds me of another novel where the Doomsday device was actually a prototype weapon meant to fight the Borg. I hate it when they try to MAKE a story by pulling some device/plot/person from the past and tie every Trek into one big overarching story. It almost always comes off as contrived or preposterous. OR WORSE.
Then you're really going to hate the fact that the sequel to "Resistance" deals with EXACTLY the same Doomsday device/prototype Borg killer. (Both the original novel that you mention and the one above was written by the same author (imagine that?), Peter David, whom I can't stand as a Trek novel author.
And I completely agree with you about the "big overarching story" some Trek novelists seem to be infatuated with (particularly the Reeves-Stevens). I am an avid Trek novel reader, and I will say that some authors are in fact very good, but others (David, the Reeves-Stevens, Michael Jan Friedman, to name just a few) really irk me.
Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
And the ones that aren't really good seem to write more of the books than the others...
Posted by Daniel Butler (Member # 1689) on :
Of course. It's like Calvin and Hobbes said, to paraphrase, that originality is harder and more time-consuming than just churning out generic crap.
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
The best book the Reeves-Stevens ever did--& to this day, I fucking adore it--was Prime Directive.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dukhat: [QB] [Then you're really going to hate the fact that the sequel to "Resistance" deals with EXACTLY the same Doomsday device/prototype Borg killer. (Both the original novel that you mention and the one above was written by the same author (imagine that?), Peter David, whom I can't stand as a Trek novel author.[/ob]
I've been saying that for years- Peter David's stuff is so much...crap in general with regards to Trek. He's a fine comic-book writer (with stories focusing on comedy and absurd situations- his old Spider-Man run was really well done) but his Star trek stuff reads as campy as the 60's Batman TV show. Almost every storyline has some TOS link too- as though there was just no history between series to draw original material from.
That being said, there is one great chapter in Vendetta (the aforementioned Borg/Planetkiller novel) which describes a Cube assimilating a planet- tearing it apart for raw materials to make another Cube even (this was written jsut after BOBW, I think, and it makes the Borg seem all but impossible to defeat).
The rest of the book is shit though- it features an old academy rival of Picard's being so jealous of Picard's fame that he has his ship fire torpedos at the Enterprise when Picard does not follow his order not to attack the Borg. Also, it features Guinan's long-lost sister as an old love-intrest of Picard's and now she's piloting the Planetkiller with the ghosts of the machine's race looking for revenge.
From a techincal POV, the new PK sounds cool (covered in spikes and ten times larger than the old one), but still travels between systems without warp somehow.
A root canal of a book.
Posted by Sean (Member # 2010) on :
I own that book, and I never got to reading past that first part, and purly out of bordem I put it down. I think it is still on my shelf though.
Posted by Dukhat (Member # 341) on :
Most of the newer Trek writers aren't that bad...check out Christopher L. Bennett, Keith R.A. DeCandido, Dayton Ward, and Michael Martin & Andy Mangels' stuff, and it's infinitely better than David's or Friedman's writing.
I just can't get over David's Calhoun character. There's just no way you can convince me that someone like that could ever be taken seriously as a Starfleet officer, let alone a captain of a ship. And David's whole obsession with the many roles of Majel Barrett-Roddenberry is annoying as hell. I hope this new Star Trek movie finally gives the name of Pike's Number One, and I sincerely hope it's not Morgan Primus.
Posted by WizArtist II (Member # 1425) on :
Could anything be worse than "Imzadi"?
Posted by Daniel Butler (Member # 1689) on :
Anyone ever read...what were they called..."Maximum Warp" or something? A two-book series. It wasn't terrible but the whole thing with Spock was really contrived. Oh, hey, so big universal apocalypse, and yeah, Spock's coming out of hiding on Romulus to help with it cuz an evil Romulan genius made him. *cough*
Posted by Zefram (Member # 1568) on :
I rather like some of the Star Trek writers, while others need a firmer editor to filter out the crap. I know that it's tempting to make a highly "visual" novel given that their source is a television series, but endless physical descriptions of alien landscapes, nebulae, technology, etc. are generally trying to the readers' patience. The overly angst-ridden characters get old too.
They seemed to gather some of the best Star Trek writers to write the DS9 relaunch novels. The Starfleet Corps of Engineers short stories and novellas are also pretty well done.
Posted by Toadkiller (Member # 425) on :
I actually know Mike Martin. Very nice man and a "true fan" as it were.
Posted by Sean (Member # 2010) on :
I just read " The Good That Men Do". Good book. DOes anyone know if there are any sequels to it, or books that follow the same storyline?
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by WizArtist II: Could anything be worse than "Imzadi"?
Imzadi 2
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
I just read a little about Resistance:
Sentient Cube? Assimilated Janeway?
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
No on those....though it seems Picard is taking his orders on everythig directly from Janeway now. ug.
Also, the Enterprise's new ship's councilor is a female Vulcan with a bias against Worf because (get this), she's read all about Worf's blowing the mission to get Lassaran (DS9: Change of Heart). As I recall, that mission was so top-secret that they did not bring Worf up in charges- now we're to believe that anyone- even a ship's councilor can read all about it in Worf's file (something Sisko said would not appear on record no less).
Yet another novel wherein Geordi has no real role in anything, but Dr. Crusher manages to make whole new technologies in minutes to stop the Borg.
Another oddity- Picard's sleeping with Crusher: which makes for pages and pages of relationship introspection between the two.
The whole thing reads like a bad fanfic.
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
Actually Janeway is assimilated in the follow up to Resistance, Before Dishonor.
Still bad though...
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Seems like another occasion where Captain Calhoun will save the day!
yaaawwwn.
Posted by Dukhat (Member # 341) on :
DS9 relaunch = good.
TNG relaunch = bad.
VOY relaunch = bad.
ENT relaunch = good so far (With one book, "The Good That Men Do." I don't know if any follow-up for that book is planned, but I'd be interested if they did.
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
That sounds like a good book. I will definately be picking that up. I can't wait for the Romulan war books are written.
Posted by Daniel Butler (Member # 1689) on :
I still want to finish those old Rihannsu(sp?) books by Diane Duane. I read #2 and #3 and liked them quite a bit.
Posted by Sean (Member # 2010) on :
I was reading an excellent fanfic about the Romulan War, in which Trip has been given his own ship, "Endeavour" after Enterprise is damaged beyond repair in the opening shots of the war. Very well written. THe site, however, seems to have vanished off of the face of the earth.
The opening title sequence is here , and the opening for the Mirror Universe "Episode" is here . I hope the site comes back online. I have e-mailed the author about it, but he has yet to respond.
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
That's because there was a server problem with the larger site Endeavour was based on. Cador is addressing it still, I think.
Posted by Sean (Member # 2010) on :
I hope they can fix it.
I somehow got my hands on a large number of pocket book's starfleet academy novels a long time ago. At the time I was reading them, I thought they were okay, but now that I understand more about Trek, I think my opinion might change.
Posted by mada101 (Member # 1285) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sean: I was reading an excellent fanfic about the Romulan War, in which Trip has been given his own ship, "Endeavour" after Enterprise is damaged beyond repair in the opening shots of the war. Very well written. THe site, however, seems to have vanished off of the face of the earth.
The opening title sequence is here , and the opening for the Mirror Universe "Episode" is here . I hope the site comes back online. I have e-mailed the author about it, but he has yet to respond.
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)