When the movie The Motion Picture premiered in theatres in 1979, the USS Entente was mentioned in the radio chatter of the Epsilon Nine scene. This scene was in the pan and scan version of the film which was released with added footage. About fourteen years later, Paramount Pictures released a letterbox version of this film. Besides the added footage being omitted, the scene at Epsilon Nine was edited and new dialogue was put in. The mention of the USS Entente was removed. Why did Paramount Pictures edit this scene? I do not know. Now the question is-which of these two versions of the film are canonical? The encyclopedias fall in line behind the second version-LBX. If you do not believe me, watch the pan and scan version, note the dialogue, and then watch the LBX version.
Posted by The Vorlon (Member # 52) on :
I'd go with the original, FULL version of the movie for reasons of canonicity... If Reddenberry approved it and the footage was shot, then it should be taken as canon.
Unless later footage contridicts the unseen footage, thus making the unseen footage non-canon.
Confused?
------------------ Lyta Vorlon: "Our great mistake. Our failing. And now your failing. The error is compounded." Delenn: "What mistake?" Lyta Vorlon: "The first one, the one from which all mistakes proceed: The error of Pride..."
I agree. Just like the ST6 Operation: Retrieve scene and the ST2 engineer-is-Scotty's-nephew scene are canon, even though they weren't in all versions of the movies.
------------------ "I fart in your general direction!" -John Cleese, Monty Python and the Holy Grail
When TWoK was shown on a local TV station, they included the scene in question. That was the only time I ever saw it. I thought about taping it, but I didn't have a tape handy... =<
------------------ Lyta Vorlon: "Our great mistake. Our failing. And now your failing. The error is compounded." Delenn: "What mistake?" Lyta Vorlon: "The first one, the one from which all mistakes proceed: The error of Pride..."
The nephew scene is only in the TV version, actually (the one made for ABC, I think).
------------------ http://frankg.dgne.com/ Motormaster: "Megatron's in trouble!" Dead End: "Who cares?" Wildrider: "It looks like Starscream's defeated him!" Dead End: "So?"
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
*thinks* Hm... I thought it was in the video I have... Maybe not...
------------------ "I fart in your general direction!" -John Cleese, Monty Python and the Holy Grail
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
The cut footage was restored only for the ABC showing.
------------------ "The record of my unspeakable crimes, in previous lives, in previous times, indelibly stains the pages of history." -- They Might Be Giants
Posted by Captain Stark (Member # 70) on :
The restored footage in ST II TWOK is currently only availble in bootleg (umm...no I woudn't buy one of those would I?). Besides the extra info on Scotty/Peter there is a scene with Kirk and Spock climbing ladders on the lower decks of the Enterprise. Sounds like an interesting subject for a web site project. Differences between the two.
------------------ -=/\=- Captain Stark http://members.aol.com/captaincks/readyroom.html
"The man on the top walks a lonely path. The chain of command is often a noose." Dr. Leonard McCoy --Obsession, Stardate: 3619.2
Posted by Captain Stark (Member # 70) on :
Oh and to answer the question (and stay on topic) I count the Entente as canonical and list it in my ship listing.
------------------ -=/\=- Captain Stark http://members.aol.com/captaincks/readyroom.html
"The man on the top walks a lonely path. The chain of command is often a noose." Dr. Leonard McCoy --Obsession, Stardate: 3619.2
Posted by Federation Shipmaster (Member # 15) on :
They probably removed it because there was a ship named the Entente in Franz Joseph's Technical Manual. The production said it wasn't canon, btu somehow it got in there.
Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :
Same goes for the Columbia and Revere.
BTW, I'll accept the Entente if anyone can provide proof that it was ever in the movie (in the form of a sound file or anything else).
------------------ http://frankg.dgne.com/ Motormaster: "Megatron's in trouble!" Dead End: "Who cares?" Wildrider: "It looks like Starscream's defeated him!" Dead End: "So?"
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Well, I must have been imagining things, because I've just checked my ST2 tape, and, sure enough, that scene is cut short. However, when it was on TV a few months back, it was there (and it wasn't on ABC, either...).
------------------ "I fart in your general direction!" -John Cleese, Monty Python and the Holy Grail
Posted by Ryan McReynolds (Member # 28) on :
I seem to remember someone posting or linking to a wave file from TMP with the Entente dialog in there on r.a.s.t. a few months, maybe a year ago. Someone may want to check DejaNews. I remember it was because Joe Chrieghton had a different registry number on his ship list than that in teh TOS TM, and someone posted the line to prove that they were one and the same. In any case, the laserdisc of TMP allegedly has the clearest line, if someone can get their hands on it. It says "Epsilon 9, this is dreadnought Entente calling. NCC-2120 calling comm station Epsilon 9. Come in" fairly clearly, but it is directly overlapping the "scout Columbia" part, which may be why some people have trouble hearing it. I can hear it on my normal store-bought video; just go rent it and it will be confirmed.
------------------ -=Ryan McReynolds=-
Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :
Aha...I have the laserdisc, I think...I'll check later.
------------------ http://frankg.dgne.com/ Vortex: "It just don't pack the punch it used to..." Swindle: "Yeah, because we're out of energy, dummy."
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
OK, I got the boxed set of Star Trek movies for christmas, they have all the letterbox versions from 1-7(8 you buy separately but there is a space)
anyway - you can quite clearly hear the woman mentioning these starships and their registries...
As for TWOK, it says on the video, an extended version - BUT! this doesn't have the Peter Preston nephew bit - but it does have some extended sceens around there - sick bay stuff - stuff before they enter the nebula - with some tac stuff on the display screen - small scene with David and Carol in sickbay with McCoy... etc. etc. - I was so excited seeing this version - cause I knew the other shorter version I had back to front...
and the bits chopped off the edges is GREAT! - like a really huge view of the genesis cave with waterfalls etc...
The bagpipe part is not cut - and leads cleanly into the orchestral accompaniment - not like in the other version...
BUT! no nephew bit...
Andrew
------------------ Alamaraine, count to four...
Posted by Lindsly on :
Ryan McReynolds: Two of the ships are mentioned-USS Columbia and USS Revere. And there is added dialogue. There is an extended discussion with the USS Columbia. BTW, nothing has been added to the second movie. Ryan, what you are seeing, is what happens when a movie is prepared for the tv screen (pan-and-scan) Pan-and-scan is where a film is trimmed so as to fit the screen. Letterbox restores the cut portions of the film and presents the film in theatrical presentation. BTW, the closed captioning of the first movie which duplicates the dialogue says, where the original mention of the USS Entente was, "Static". BTW2, I remember reading or hearing a statement supposedly attributed to Gene Roddenberry. He stated that Starfleet has no dreadnoughts because of its peaceful nature. Can anyone confirmed this statement, or its origin?
Posted by Ryan McReynolds (Member # 28) on :
I think you mixed me and Andrew up there a bit, seeing as I said nothing about STII at all, but it's a simple enough mistake. In any case, I was never aware that there was any editing to the Epsilon 9 scenes at all until I read this thread... I've only seen my own video copy of TMP, and it includes the Entente line, for whatever that's worth. If there is indeed another, edited version, I was not aware of it.
------------------ -=Ryan McReynolds=-
Posted by Ryan McReynolds (Member # 28) on :
Oh yeah... I've also heard the "no dreadnoughts" statement attributed to Gene, though I can't confirm or deny its authenticity. It doesn't really matter to me, personally; Star Trek is and always has been a lot more than just Gene's word.
------------------ -=Ryan McReynolds=-
[This message was edited by Ryan McReynolds on March 27, 1999.]
Posted by Federation Shipmaster (Member # 15) on :
I've never heard the Entente, probably becuase I've seen the version with 12 minutes of extra footage. What I don't understand is why the Columbai and Revere were taken out.