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Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :

What is the ship in the bottom right corner of the view screen?

we seem to be looking at two nacelles - touching the right edge... and the back of a saucer section - the white 'lines' a bit further left.

the roundish thing (between the nacelles) what is that a secondary hull?
http://www.zahni.com/copernicus/images/w359_2_1.jpg

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"What a wonderful and amazing scheme have we here of the magnificent vastness of the Universe! So many Suns, so many Earths...!" - Christian Huygens, New Conjectures Concerning the Planetary Worlds, Their Inhabitants and Productions (ca 1670)

[This message has been edited by AndrewR (edited February 21, 2000).]

Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

I can see what you mean, but I can also see a dozen different interpretations of that mess...

In any case, the Springfield class Chekov is still unaccounted for, and she was supposedly a relatively detailed model with two nacelles (made of marker pens) and a conventional Enterprise-style configuration. She would probably have been photographed relatively close up - so this is a good Chekov candidate.

There aren't too many other close-ups that wouldn't have been identified yet. The Chekov has to be either this one, or the barely intact saucer drifting off to the left - or then she was not filmed in close-up at all.

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :

I just watched the scene again and while the screen view moves to the right, Shelby says: "The Tolstoy...the Kyushu...(long pause)...the Melbourne". If this dialogue was originally "The Melbourne, the Kyushu, the Chekov", then the ship on the top right (is this what you meant by "bottom right corner?") could be the Chekov. It gets visible just when Shelby says "Melbourne" (was: "Chekov"). However, this ship looks a lot like the vertical ship in the following scene (Niagara?), even the damage pattern seems to be the same. The bottom right corner shows nothing but unidentifiable Jein-debris.

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"A few more calculations"

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

Are you sure that the order of the ships in the dialogue was reversed? I was under the impression that they simply changed "Chekov" to "Tolstoy".

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Jay Leno: "In the story of 'Jack and the Beanstalk', what did the goose lay?"
"Bosco": "Everybody."
-The Tonight Show, "Jaywalking"

Posted by The359 (Member # 37) on :

It does sort of look like a ship. The saucer is on the left, and the large flames are where the neck would be. There is a very small engineering hull below that, and some barely visible nacelles off to the side? Chekov?

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"The things hollow--it goes on forever--and--oh my God!--it's full of stars!" -David Bowman's last transmission back to Earth, 2001: A Space Odyssey

The 359 Webpage

Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :

Bernd, when I said Bottom Right... I meant... Bottom Right

the 'nacelles' touch the right boarder of the viewscreen... the saucer section is a bit below and to the left of the nacelles (its sort of listing) - the whole ship is in the bottom corner.

The nacelle 'pylons' look horizontal... maybe its an Excelsior Variant/Study model - have we accounted for all of them... It may have even been Ambassadoresque? Or something completely different.

maybe it was just a plain ole Excelsior!?! Or were all the ships in BOBW Wolf 359 scene - 'new' ships?

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

We have not accounted for all the ESMs (Excelsior study models). Originally, we only knew of two. Now Okuda has said that there were three or four (or more). So, basically, we may not even know when we've accounted for all of them.

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Jay Leno: "In the story of 'Jack and the Beanstalk', what did the goose lay?"
"Bosco": "Everybody."
-The Tonight Show, "Jaywalking"

Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

I'm afraid I'm the reason for the confusion w/ the order of ship names. Okuda certainly didn't imply a change in the order, but I used quotes around "Melbourne, Kyushu, Tolstoy" and "..., Chekov" in a misleading way. I wasn't quoting Mike, I was just trying to say that what is in the quotes is a rough approximation of dialogue instead of plain text.

Most probably the names always went from Chekov to Melbourne, and just the first ship was changed (this may be the reason for the slight pause, too). I doubt the people who wrote or dubbed the dialogue were in any sort of communication with the modelmakers and VFX people about which ship was where on that screen after the dialogue had been changed.

It's just pure good luck that there are so many wrecks visible when Shelby says "Tolstoy". Even if one of those is the Chekov, there are plenty of ships that definitely aren't - the flaming foreground saucer or the background four-naceller can play the part of the nonexistent Tolstoy if need be. The former is a good candidate because it is the first to go off screen (so Shelby might name it first) and is very close (so it could be identified even though it's a complete mess), while the latter is centrally located and rather intact and easily recognizable from a distance thanks to its numerous nacelles, and is probably Excelsior-sized (so Shelby might name it first before going down to smaller details like New Orleans frigates, and off-center ships like the Melbourne).

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by Laz1701 on :

The reason for the pause, and the reason for having the Melbourne mentioned last, is simply for dramatic purposes. Remember, the Melbourne was Admiral Hansen's ship. Having Shelby mention the Melbourne first, or second, completely defuses the impact of the scene. So she mentions a couple of ships she sees first... and then she spots the Melbourne. She pauses, drinking in the fact that Hansen and his ship are gone, then says the ship's name. Then everyone else on the bridge drinks in the fact too - especially Riker.

Naming the ships in that order raises the tension, and climaxes with the revelation that Hansen/Melbourne, who led the battle at Wolf 359, are lost.

As a screenwriter, actor, and filmmaker myself, I would bet that the Melbourne was always mentioned last in the dialogue because that has the most dramatic impact, and that the only change was switching Chekov to Tolstoy.

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The Starship Encyclopedia

Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :

Yes, you've hit the nail right on the head!

Which ships were offered to Riker to command? Wasn't the Melbourne one of them.

Andrew remember you pronounce it Mel-behn not Mel-borrn ;o) for you Canadians and Americans...

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

Bah! It may be your city, but it's our starship! *L*

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Jay Leno: "In the story of 'Jack and the Beanstalk', what did the goose lay?"
"Bosco": "Everybody."
-The Tonight Show, "Jaywalking"

Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :

Andrew: I see what you mean, but I don't see the ship. There seems to be something like nacelles on the right ege, but when I watched the moving scene, there was only one piece of debris.

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"A few more calculations"

Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :

Timo: It's obvious that the Melbourne would have been the last ship in Shelby's line, with a longer pause, from the very beginning. I guess I have to correct it on the Wolf 359 page.

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"A few more calculations"

Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :

*Grin* TSN - ahhhh I might have been born there - but "My City" is Brisbane... that is Briz-behn not Bris-Bayn

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

Andrew: Well, I meant "your" as Australia and "our" as the US. :-)

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Jay Leno: "In the story of 'Jack and the Beanstalk', what did the goose lay?"
"Bosco": "Everybody."
-The Tonight Show, "Jaywalking"