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Posted by Pro. Portside on :

Here is something that I have been going over for some time. Why dose the voyager have a warp core like the E-A?

Sence the first movie we have seen 3 warp core designs. What I think is that it all has to do with the level of energy generated by each design.

Also we only know about the inner workings of the core of the E-D. The core of the E-E is just a four lobed version of the E-D core so the two should be some what alike. the core for the E-A and voyager is still a bit of a mistery to me.

So, what do you think? is the core given out by the level of energy needed by each ship class? Care to comeint on the inner workings of that big lava lamp they have been calling a warp core on voyager?

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Tribbles and warp cores dont mix

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

Well, I think you may be onto something with the warp-core generating power to a level per class ...

(I mean, you wouldn't put an F-16 engine in a Cessna, now would you?)

Something's still unclear about that ... I mean, are you talking the PHYSICAL warp core itself, or the energy displays?

Because if its just the physical cores themselves, I don't think it would matter all that much. Remember: no weight in space!

The energy displays -- who knows? Maybe every warp core looks different. Or ...

Maybe the TNG warp core was specificly designed so that those "pulses" would be a quick way for Engineering officers to know when it was doing OK, and when it was malfunctioning.

Same could go for the "energy" displays on VOY ... ?

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Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Rated 7 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux

Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :

Warp cores should be pretty standard in design effiency, since the M/AM reaction is supposed to cause X power output. IIRC, the ratio is 1 to 1, with flow amounts varying for power output. Unless one is to believe the ST:NG TM, with a 25:1 idle ratio, which makes little sense.

The warp core should consist, mainly, of the upper and lower constrictor coils, the M/AMRC, and the plasma conduit(s).

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Posted by Davok (Member # 143) on :

Using a 1:1 ratio, the output would be pure energy, more precisely: electromagnetic radiation. Possibly they use more matter than antimatter because they want the rest of the matter to be turned into plasma by the immense amount of energy resulting from the m/a-reaction... that would also explain the "energy plasma system" (EPS).

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USS Allegiance LCARS Database

Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :

Yes, I do stand corrected. I got thinking about the plasma and how it came in to being...... But the ratio still shouldn't change, only flow amount.

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Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

Perhaps they want to start the engines gradually, by first pumping tiny amounts of antimatter into excess deuterium to start fusion reactions in it, to "warm up" the engines. Then they decrease the amount of deuterium going in so the fusion reactions decrease in importance and the m/am annihilation increases. And then they keep increasing the total flow and decreasing the relative deuterium flow so that the amount of plasma generated stays the same. At infinite feed flow, the ratio tends down to 1:1.

Even at non-infinite values of flow, they might want to stop the engines from producing more plasma by selecting this 1:1 ratio, since apparently plasma isn't necessarily exhausted in the process. Instead, the same plasma circulates in the system over and over (or stays immobile - it need not move anywhere, as long as it serves as a conduit for the energies generated in the core), and is only vented in emergencies.

So a varying ratio of matter and antimatter makes sense to me.

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :

I would expect the construction of all warp cores to bebasically the same. The outer appearance of the core is still another thing. They may have different access to the crystals, different ways the PTC's are connected and different (stylish?) casings. As we have seen in "First Contact", all the glowing and flowing blue, purple or green stuff is probably only the coolant and not the actual plasma or matter or antimatter stream, so this may look considerably different on different designs.

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"Species 5618, human. Warp-capable, origin grid 325, physiology inefficient, below average cranium capacity, minimum redundant systems, limited regenerative abilities."
Ex Astris Scientia

Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :

Sorry to step on the conversation, but Voyager's warp-core looks NOTHING like the Enterprise-A's. It looks like the refit Enterprise as seen in TMP, but the Ent-A warpcore was not seen in STIV, I don't remember it in STV, and in STVI it looked suspiciously like the Enterprise-D's.

So, in the weird optical catagory, we have refit Enterprise and Voyager.

In the pulsing doughnut lights that often bear little resemblence to what is actually happening catagory, we have the Ent-A, Ent-D and Defiant.

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"I am in one of those rare periods of life where I am convinced I am a sexy devil."- Simon "Sol System" Sizer

Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

Quite correct. "E-A" is just how people often speak of the refitted E-nil, and it's a chore to correct them all the time.

It's difficult to say which is more advanced, the swirling-mist core or the pulsing-doughnut one. The first core we saw was E-nil's "mist core", and at the time when the E-A got her "doughnut core" we also observed other ships with the same core structure (the Excelsior, the E-B, the Jenolan, the Hathaway, even though most of these cores were only seen as Okudagrams). But we cannot be absolutely sure that the mist core came first. Perhaps the doughnuts are the old and tried system, and the E-nil was a radical new experiment that did not quite succeed yet? Perhaps only in Voyager's time were the problems of that core type finally solved.

We didn't see the core of the TOS ship (or if we did, we didn't recognize it) - perhaps it was a doughnut core? TAS did show some machinery we didn't see in TOS, and there was a sort of "misty" corelike thingamabob there once, but that's noncanon...

Timo Saloniemi

PS. I agree with Bernd that whatever the TNG TM claims, the colors we see in, on or around the cores are related to the cooling fluids, not to the reactions taking place inside. That helps in giving commonality to the actual core workings.

Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :

wow, I see lights.... pretty lights.... all pulsing and swirling.....

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Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

Dammit, Ritten, stop smoking' that stuff!

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Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Rated 7 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux

Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :

******after getting striaght*****

Hey, that reminds of a song.....
Gotta get staright
Gotta get bent
your stupid hearts worth about 10 cents....
Wall of Voodoo .... Damned if I remember which one though.... This Business of Love, I think....

An idle of 25:1 would produce a massive amount of plasma, unless the M/A mutual destruction is greater than 1:1. It is, it seems, backwards. A ratio of 1:1 would create pure energy, without the excess plasma generated.
If, in an idle state, you create plasma, which is not good to leak, and controlled during venting, which seems to not happen vary often, what happens to it???

According to the ST:NG TM, yeah I know, the ratio of M/AM, carried, is 20.83333:1, so you wouldn't want to sit idle too long.

If you take the TM and reverse the numbers, 1:1 for idle and 25:1 for max. warp, it would make more sense.

Ok, now I am going to stare at my pretty colorfull lights again...

***I almost slammed Clinton and Bush....oops*****

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Posted by Pro. Portside on :

Timo if you look at the Star trek Mag. Vol. 17 there is a brefing of the TOS Enterprise.

they show the large units along the wall opposite if the one that would have the rased walk way. These two units are called matter-antimatter chambers. but these were replaced by that thing in the senter of the floor where the dilithium would be housed. they also call the "engine" behind the wire mesh as only "Main engines"

by the way The voyager is the only ship that I can think of that does not show any conduits going from the core to warp engines. I thought that the glowing strip on the floor was that conduit. If it is then wouldn't it need ot go in the other direction? or is Main engineering on the intrepid class (or just voyager) on the other side of the warp core than any other ship we have seen? just thought I would ask.

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Tribbles and warp cores dont mix

Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

The E-D and the Defiant apparently had the engineering room entirely in front of the core, while the E-nil refit supposedly had it mostly aft of the (vertical part of the) core. Voyager's room extends more or less evenly to both sides of the core, with the main entry door towards the bow and the two smaller ones towards the stern. The E-E is a mystery so far, but probably the "pool table" ship display is oriented the way the ship itself is - in which case the core is in the rear part of the room.

As for vertical placement, only the E-D and E-A so far seem to have the dilithium chamber on the same level with the main engine room floor, while the E-nil and E-nil refit apparently had dilithium chambers located on that level but away from the core. Other ships have hidden their dilithium hatches from sight pretty efficiently.

So apparently there are many ways to do a main engineering layout, and no obvious rules can be discerned.

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by Daniel (Member # 453) on :

I believe that the warp cores of various starships look different because they have different methods of magnetic constriction. The Enterprise A,D,E and the Defiant all appear to have the "doughnut" shaped magnetic constriction coils. But what if the large double metal rings on Voyager and the refit Enterprise serve the same function? Perhaps these are augmented by electromagnetic systems housed in the lateral supports of the core. Also, although I agree that the swirling blue patterns are coolant, why would it simply dissapear every time the core was shut down? Isn't it still going to be *really* hot for a while?

Also, if you dare to trust the material in the STTNG Tech Manual, the deuterium and antideuterium streams are *already* plasma streams before they even contact the dilithium. So how does one twenty-fifth of it being annhiliated change the overall makeup? It would still simply be deuterium in plasma form. Nothing too special about that.

About the plasma transfer conduits of Voyager, since we cant see the matter/antimatter reaction vessel where the dilithium is, why would we be able to see the PTC's? The reaction vessel must be on a lower deck and we are only seeing the upper magnetic constriction segments. But then there's the problem that the "official" CGI cutaway of Voyager shows a mainly standard upper core and then all of these odd little colored blocks below it.

And here's another question: how does the antimatter and matter on board the refit Enterprise get to the dilithium? There doesn't appear to be any visible connection on what you can see of the set. So, does the refit E run on magic plasma that somehow teleports itself to that dilithium pedestal and then back to the intermix shaft? Doesn't make sense. But little about the refit Enterprise's warp system does.

Posted by Pro. Portside on :

Your question about the refit enterprise. other than to much romulan ale beeing drank by the people who did the work on the refit design. I could not figure out why put the warp core in one room and the dilithum in the next. so untill I hear something beter I have gone to thinking that maybe the dilithum in that Pedistal is used in some sort of EPS tap feeding the main systems like the IDF (inertial damping field). If the dilithum was out of wack the tap does not work and the IDF has no power so the warp engines do not work due to some sort of safty design. not the best but hey I am still working on it.

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Tribbles and warp cores dont mix

Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

Alternately, the dilithium is supposed to go into the core, but primitive 23rd century tech cannot build a safe hatch that would open *directly* into the core. Instead, they build this teleoperated system where you first enter a radlock, then open the end of a "tubemail" system and insert the dilithium (already in its frame) into a carriage in the tube, then send it along the tube into the core somewhere belowdecks.

The same would apply to the TOS ship: the dilithium would go to the (unseen) core along a teleoperated line, and one terminal of that line would be the thing sitting on the center of the engine room floor (corresponding to the pedestal in the refit-ship). The thing wasn't there in the early episodes, so apparently it was installed in place of some even more secure system that didn't even have an interface point in the engine room.

Similarly, the radlock system only appears on the refit ship after ST:TMP. Presumably, that ship also had a supersecure system at first, with the dilithium entry hatch stashed away somewhere distant, but by ST2, it had been moved closer to the core and equipped with that radlock.

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :

Strangely though, the dilithium, er, box from the TOS Enterprise wasn't there at the beginning. In one ep of the first season, someone gets Dilithium from a drawer on Scotty's computer.

The Dilithium chamber didn't appear until (I think), the ep with Lazarus. Of which the name escapes me.

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"I am in one of those rare periods of life where I am convinced I am a sexy devil."- Simon "Sol System" Sizer

Posted by Daniel (Member # 453) on :

Er, I wasn't exactly serious about the disapparating plasma. What I was getting to, is that I don't believe that the dilithium pedestal actually *has* any physical connection to the intermix shaft. First of all, since the intermix shaft doesn't appear to have an upper deuterium injector, that means that its only antimatter in the system, or the matter is mysteriously injected somewhere else and the whole core is containing a wild, uncontrolled anhiliation of matter and antimatter.

Second, the dilithium can't pop down a tube and dissapear into the appropriate place in the intermix shaft. That means there is no cause for the radiation leakage that knocked out Scotty and killed Spock. It also means that the plasma transport tube to the nacelles is on the wrong level. The dilithium must be right there at the connect point for the plasma stream to travel at a perpendicular angle to the engines.

Also, about the original E's dilithium containment thingy. That double cylindrical thing with the articulation frame, I assume, is what you were talking about. That seems to be referred to as the matter antimatter integration unit, or old tech talk for the warp core. This is the only phyisical manifestation of it that we ever see on the original E. I assume that those two pressure domes on the top are there because the matter and antimatter streams are being redirected by who-knows-what at a perfect 90 degree angle to intercept the dilithium in the articulation frame. Those streams are probably pretty strong.
Anyway, that's my crazy little theory.

Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

I don't see why there couldn't be a connection between the warp core and the standoff "dilithium injectors" we see in the post-"Alternate Factor" TOS ship and the post-TMP refitted ship. The radiation leak would simply be a leak of radioactive gas along the "tubemail" path. The path would not be so badly damaged that Spock couldn't beckon the dilithium carriage from the core to the pedestal and realign the dilithium there, but it was damaged enough to not seal completely at the core end, so it kept spitting radioactive deuterium and helium at Spock's face.

Also, I see no reason for the plasma conduits to be at 90 degrees to the core. After all, the conduits make weird turns when they snake their way towards the pylons, so why couldn't they make weird turns when they depart the reaction chamber? It's just one (rather practical) engineering solution to have them sprouting directly from the sides of the dilithium chamber itself at straight angles.

Actually, I don't think the vertical thingy aboard the refitted ship was a real "warp core" at all. It was IMHO just a vertical plasma conduit, branching off to the impulse engines and the warp nacelles. The actual "core" core was the lower, unseen part of the vertical section, somewhere on the lower decks. The reaction chamber and the dilithium were down there, too, along with the antimatter pods.

This would also be nicely consistent with the fact that the TMP-style "core" serves as a plasma conduit in the E-D engineering set.

Timo Saloniemi
Timo Saloniemi

Posted by Daniel (Member # 453) on :

I know I've dragged this on way too long, and probably no one will post a reply, but bear with me. I read Timo's last post, and the tubemail thingy DOES make some sort of sense. If the dilithium reaction chamber is at the very base of the secondary hull, where the antimatter storage is, then the plasma created could just shoot up the intermix shaft.

But there are several problems. One, is that in ST II, the Enterprise didn't take damage to the bottom of the secondary hull, but along Deck O, or the second deck of the econdary hull. If the tubemail system is indeed how it all works and the dilithium reaction vessel is down on deck 21, then it remained untouched and there was no reason to realign the dilithium. I don't believe it can be jostled out of position. If that was the case, every time the Enterprise was hit by anything, the warp drive would shut down.

This brings up the question of why main engineering is ON Deck O in the first place. If the primary components of the engines, the dilithium and the matter/antimatter injectors are on deck 21 or somewhere therabouts, wouldn't it be more logical to put main engineering down there with it? It certainly isn't any more dangerous than it is on deck 15.

One point, the reason why the PTC's of the Enterprise D snake around, is because they use magnetic peristalsis, pusing the plasma along like food is pushed down the esophogous. They can't make weird turns directly after they depart the reaction chamber. The energetic plasma, if thet's really what it is, has to depart in a stream of some sort. We have to assume the dilithium, through some mysterious property of its chemical makeup, has the ability to not only suspend M/AM reactions in its lattice but also deflect the resulting plasma. This plasma can't just run into a wall and be deflected in another direction. This is why I think there exists a impulse deflection crystal on board the refit Enterprise and her peers. To make a direct 90 dgree turn to the impulse engines, it needs a nonreactive crystalline object to refocus the plasma stream. Admittedly, there are flaws with this too.