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Posted by Eclipse (Member # 472) on :

I was just thinking about what Starfleet's going to have to do after wrapping up the Dominion War - rebuild. Of course they could use tried-and-true designs, but they're more likely to bring out a few new classes designed with the lessons of the war in mind. So, what would you guys make the spec for these new ships?

Personally, I go for something about Intrepid-size and speed, but beef it up with a few pulse phasers and extra torp launchers (replace that useless Captain's Gig, for one thing!). Sort of a fast cruiser, or 'pocket battleship'.

Thoughts?

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Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :

Yes. Will "oh my God" do?

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- James Lileks, 09/04/2001

Posted by TheF0rce (Member # 533) on :

this is completely unrelated to the topic
but starfleet has been making their ships smaller and smaller
while all the other races have been making them bigger and bigger
like the klingons rolling out the negh'var.

and before you can say the sovi is the biggest ship in starfleet--i would like to point out it is indeed smaller than the galaxy-having long nacelles don't count.

[This message has been edited by TheF0rce (edited April 17, 2001).]

Posted by Dukhat (Member # 341) on :

Well in a month or so we'll be seeing post-Dominion war ships in the Voyager series finale, AFAIK.

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Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :

*swat*
There are those of us on both sides of the Atlantic who wouldn't want to hear that.

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"I can be creative when I have a good idea. That just happens way too rarely."
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Posted by Dukhat (Member # 341) on :

We don't know that for sure, hence my "AFAIK."

Shabren's Final Prophecy: Star Trek: Legacy

Posted by Vacuum robot lady from Spaceballs (Member # 239) on :

They say it's a haven.

Will they be here? Will I?

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"Instructed by history and reflection, Julian was persuaded that, if the diseases of the body may sometimes be cured by salutary violence, neither steel nor fire can eradicate the erroneous opinions of the mind."

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Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

Damn that feels sad. I've seen "Imperfection", that's where I am now...

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Don't kill me, I'm charming!

Posted by Michael Dracon (Member # 4) on :

Waiting for 'Drive' on video. The next best thing for Voyager is 'Equinox part 2', which just aired a few hours ago onn BBC 2.

For DS9 I'm REALLY happy to finally see season 7 on the BBC. Also, on one of our own channels we're going to see season 7 soon. They are mid-way season 6 now, but they're airing 5 times a week

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Posted by Matrix (Member # 376) on :

I agree with you Eclipse. However I would imagine this type of ship replacing the Excelsior class. In my opinion I think that if Starfleet wanted to keep its Excelsiors then they should upgarde it similar to the Lakota class. Before anyone suggests that the Excelsiors we saw on DS9 could be a Lakota refit, keep in mind the Lakota actually did take a little punishment from the Defiant.

I would only imagine that also that I don't think that Starfleet will ever start building Excelsiors and Mirandas after the war. Probably have them replaced by Akiras and New Orleans.

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Posted by crobato on :

New Orleans class would probably go in the way of the do-do after Wolf 359. This is another remnant or legacy of a Federation that turned fat and lax, and set itself up for serious defeats from the Borg and the Dominion. The Steamrunner and the Norway classes would probably fill this segment better.

I would see some of the bigger luxo cruisers like Ambassadors and Galaxy class withdrawn from the front lines and confined to diplomacy missions, leaving the smaller, meaner ships to deal with actual threats. Surviving Mirandas and Excelsiors would be pushed back from combat frontline service and turned to supply transports or troop transports or tug services.

The pure warships like the Defiant, Prometheus, Steamrunners and Norway classes would have to supplemented by the "eyes and ears" of the Fleet---scout ships loaded with the most advanced sensors and serve as EWACS and reconnaissance. I see Nova and Intrepid classes filling this role.

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

The Federation will always have smaller ships than, say, the Romulans and Klingons, because they've got a LOT more territory to cover. They've got planets to protect, supplies to race to critical areas (how many times was the Enterprise racing medical supplies to a disaster?), science missions, humanitarian missions ... you name it, it's Starfleet's job.

I don't think Starfleet is even building any more Excelsiors or Mirandas. IMHO, they stopped building those decades ago. However, the most modern ships of those class continue to serve, as well as the first Excelsior- and Miranda-Class starships which rolled off the production line and haven't been felled. Look at the USS Repulse in TNG's The Child. Her registry is 2080 or something. That ship's a contemporary of the Excelsior and she's still kicking! It's clear from that alone that the Excelsior has probably a 100-year operational life span (anyone got the Hood's registry?)

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Posted by Eclipse (Member # 472) on :

I tend to agree that Starfleet is going to specialise its ships a lot more. I wonder, would they be more likely to make their main fighting force a few mega-battleships (a Galaxy with 20-odd torp launchers etc.) or lots of Jem'hadar-like attack ships? Or even something in between like the Prommie?

Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :

USS Hood - NCC-42296

Mark

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"Why build one, when you can have two at twice the price?"

- Carl Sagan, "Contact"

Posted by TheF0rce (Member # 533) on :

who ever said the stream runner and norway class were warships?
the only thing that come close is the akira.

defiant and promethiuse were the only ships starfleet actualy admitted were tacticaly oriented.

the norway and streamrunner hardly have over 5 phaser banks and no more torp luanchers than your average miranda.

they look a hell of alot like transports.

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

No they didn't.

The Defiant is an "escort" ship -- sure, they built her to fight a war, but they haven't admitted it. It's sort of like an "open" secret. Everyone knows what the ship is, Starfleet just isn't confirming it.

Posted by akb1979 (Member # 557) on :

To confirm a comment made by JeffKardde;

The last reg number for an Excelsior-class starship I have is 62043 (USS Melbourne, lost at Wolf 359).

From my research (briefly mentioned in the "Starfleet and Numbers" forum) I have found that the number 62043 would belong to a starship built in the early 2350's - therefore Jeffkardde is correct (based upon this info), that Starfleet is not producing any more Excelsiors. The same would also apply to the Miranda's, the latest I can find being USS Saratogo - 31911 - placing it's construction in the early 2340's.

Have I got too much time on my hands or what? Hehe!

In a word: yes!

Posted by Vacuum robot lady from Spaceballs (Member # 239) on :

Here, we all do.

That works only if you take registries as chronological, and as representing the construction date. Not that I see any reason why not, but there are exceptions, like the Melbourne.

We've had a few good discussions on the Melbourne, and I'll see if I can pull a JeffKardde and dig them up.

The fact that 62043 is such a high number throws the production scale of Excelsiors off. Using fancy doubletalk and excuses to explain away the Melbourne works best.

-Edward Gibbons, The Decline and Fall of The Roman Empire.

[This message has been edited by Ultra Magnus (edited April 19, 2001).]

Posted by crobato on :

Excuse me I don't recall the Steamrunner and the Norway class ships acting like target decoys when the Borg came to Sector 001.

And where did you get the number of phasers and torpedos for these ships?

If you think the Akira was closest to a warship, why not the Steamrunner, the Norway and the Saber. All four ships belong to the same bag anyway (designed by Alex Jaeger of ILM) and debuted in the screen at the same time, in the same battle and for the same purpose.

Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

No. Their layout, armament and performance specs are very different from one another.

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Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :

Yeah, the ones with the big red concentric circles have me worried though....

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Posted by Eclipse (Member # 472) on :

Or even the ones with the blue dot in the middle, then the white ring, then the red one...

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

Didn't Jaeger himself say that he gave the Akira a whole crapload of torpedo tubes, and such?

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Posted by MIB on :

These are my predictions as to what roles starfleet is going to use it's ships for.

Warfare: Akira, Defiant, Promethius, Saber
Diplomatic: Galaxy, Ambassador, Norway
Long range exploration: Intrepid, Sovereign
Short Range exploration: Nova, Oberth
Police forces: Steamrunner
Frighter/tug/personel transport: Excelsiors, Mirandas, New Orleans

Ships like the Cheyenne, Springfield, Nigeria, ect. ect. I think has been long sense been old news. I honestly think that those ships are no longer in sevice. The Oberths, New Orleans, Excelsiors, and Mirandas aren't that far behind either. I honestly think that the Steamrunner would be serving as a Police ship. Someone has to keep the peace within Federation borders.

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Posted by Matrix (Member # 376) on :

Sounds good to me MIB however the Sovereign I think is not built for long range exploration. Yes she's fast but she way too heavily armed to be wasted exploring the galaxy.

In FC you see Steamrunners being blown apart easily wile the Akiras and the Sabres actually hold there own. The fact that you see the Akiras and the Sabres more than you see the Steamrunners and Norways in the DS9.

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Posted by Dukhat (Member # 341) on :

If TPTB had decided not to design new ships for FC, and instead used all old designs such as Oberths, Mirandas, and Excelsiors, then I have no doubt that they would have been destroyed just as easily as the newer ships. Same argument goes if they'd used even newer designs such as the Prometheus. It's all about effects, people! They needed ships to be destroyed, so they destroyed them. I really don't think they cared how many of what type of ship bit the dust more or less than any other ship.

Shabren's Final Prophecy: Star Trek: Legacy

Posted by crobato on :

Seeing Steamrunners destroyed does not say anothing. Actually Akiras took it heavily in the Battle of Sector 001 and in the Dominion War. The fair rarity of Steamrunners and Norways may only suggest the ships may still be a bit experimental.

One thing I must mention and don't forget that the Steamrunners, Akiras, Sabres, Norways are all ILM ships, just like the Klingon Bird of Prey. These people like Alex Jaeger do ships for everyone, not the least for Star Wars. Thus the five ships have a fairly odd non-Trek look that seemed more fitting on another fictional universe (e.g. Star Wars) than Star Trek. Do people ever noticed that Trek ships that debuted on TV (e.g. Prometheus, Nova class, New Orleans class) look more correctly and properly "Federation".

Posted by Matrix (Member # 376) on :

The only ship out of the 4 ships that debuted (except E-E) that you definately see and classify is the Akira class, not only that she is the only one (except E-E) that has a Federation look to it.

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Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :

On the ILM ships looking less-Trekkish, sure. Sternbach et al know the "Federation look" or the "Klingon look" etc. like the back of their hands. They, for the most part, "made" that look. So it's only natural that their designs fit in more seamlessly.

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"I can be creative when I have a good idea. That just happens way too rarely."
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Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :

I gather we are talking about Federation ships, that have appeared new in TNG movies, because ships that have appeared new in TOS movies - have been perfect examples of Federation ships.

So we have:

The Lakul
The uprated Excelsior
the armagosa observatory
the akira
the sabre
the norway
the steamrunner
the phoenix
the captain's yacht - E-E version
the new shuttle
Data's scout
the holodeck ship

I always thought the Lakul was an alien ship
the Excelsior looks fine - since it is mostly the Nilo Rodis ship from III
the observatory - looks... fine - a generic observatory.

The Akira - radical, but Federation-y. Overboard on the armament?
The Sabre - looks to me like the design was pinched from Rick Sternbach's idea for a Vulcan ship as seen in "The Continuing Mission" and "The making of DS9"
The Steamrunner and the Norway - well, we really haven't seen much of them, I think the whole 'problem' with the FC ships - is that they are too angular and don't fit - ANYWHERE with what has come before. They are too... alien. Non-trekkian. Where as TNG ship design was based on Gene's idea of "Technology Unchained" where you could trace the design origin between ships - especially the Enterprises.

The Insurrection ships just became woeful. Wierd colouring, trying to be TOO streamlined for Trek ships.

I hope they get someone else for the Effects in this new movie. The Insurrection effects were disgusting. The Bak'u planet was uninspiring. AND the worst part were the 'atmosphere' effects - where the matting of the drones and the shuttles was really - crappy. It looked very fake.

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Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :

I thought "technology unchained" refered to the idea that the tech shouldn't intrude on humans lives. Also that it should be used to enhance the quality of life, and guff. I didn't think it had anything to do with tracing the design lineage.

To be fair, it is gtting harder and harder to design Federation ships. When they did the first non-Enterprise ship, they basically removed the engineering section. The Reliant looked Starfleet, because it had almost all the same components as the Enterprise, yet it had a radically different sillouete.

While the Ambassador, Galaxy, New Orleans, and so on, all look "Starfleet", they also create a problem for the producers. Casual fans can't tell them apart. When I first saw "Yesterdays Enterprise", I thought the ship was the Enterprise-A.

The Nebula was eventually built because TPTB needed a comtempry ship of the Ent-D that looked different to the casual fan. The First Contact ships are going even further along that design. They were not they main point of the movie. They will likely never be the main focus of a movie, or even episode. So let's make them look as different from current Starfleet ships as possible, so that when we see them in fleet shots, we KNOW they're different. You might mistake an Excelsior for a Sovereign from a distance, but you'd never mix up a Galaxy and Steamrunner.

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Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :

OK, Just thinking about the actual phrase "technology unchained" - it probably hasn't got anything to do with design lineage - but I'm sure from one of the many 'making of' books that Gene wanted to see how one ship could be seen as being a logical next step from the ships before it. The problem with the FC ships, is that they look NOTHING like what has come before. Yeah, it can have a different configuration, but I'm talking about the actual components - the nacelles, the deflector dish etc. The Federation has a look, that has evolved over the years - and we can see it when we look at ships like the E-D, Nebula, Cheyenne, New Orleans, Danube, Defiant and Voyager. The designs can be linked. Then we get the FC ships with their nacelles and their deflectors and their hull markings that look NOTHING like the others. Then they plonk them in the 5xxxx's or the 6xxxx's and say that they've been around all along.

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

And the TOS and TMP Enterprises had such similar deflectors, eh?

Posted by Treknophyle (Member # 509) on :

I for one see a subtle - yet real design philosophy in common with almost every Starfleet vessel yet-seen - and I include FC vessel in the mix.
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Use inverse logic: look at ships from non-Federation races (Turd-head (I mean Kazon), Klingon, Romulan, Cardassian, Dominion, Borg, etc.

Modern Federation vessels rarely have "sharp edges", and normally have blended-in modularized hulls (as opposed to discreet/angular modules). The hulls are off-white [I would LOVE to get a consensus (for my deck plans) on the actual PMS color used] with externalized grills and grids. Right from the start, even TOS vessels showed some differentiation (remember the Aurora?) - but these details remained constant.

"Technology Unchained" as it pertains to exterior topology of Starfleet Vessels would seem to have to do with the gradual rounding-off of angularization, etc: which would draw me to the hypothesis that the more streamlined a vessel-class is, the newer it is. I have not yet done a shape vs. NCC # comparison yet.

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Posted by Matrix (Member # 376) on :

Yeah well why does it need to be streamlined? There is no friction in space to make it be that way. Could it be possible that the Steamrunner, Sabre and the Norway are non-human designs? Vulcan is a major member, even a 'co-manager' of the UFP. Couldn't they have a say design their own ships perhaps in conjunction with Starfleet engineers? These ships have different hull color, design, and ect. so why can't these ships be non-human designed?

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Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :

Who's saying that the others ARE human designed? I imagine a mix of races worked on them.

Posted by Toadkiller (Member # 425) on :

Exactly - in fact it would seem the greatest strength SF has is the array of species-viewpoints to draw from for ship design. We've seen that various "alien" species have wildly different hull shapes, so obviously there are different answers to the same questions (compared to blue water navies whose ships all look more or less alike).

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TK

Posted by Matrix (Member # 376) on :

Except those blue water navies are not large batteships/aircraft carriers. On Earth, especially before WWII, navies had their own design philosophy, German ships look different from American etc. Japanese ships definately do not look like any other contemporary.

I'm sure that ships are designed from all kinds of races, but those three ships of the Sabre, Steamrunner and the Norway look different from the normal line of Starfleet ships. Either it could be a new design philosophy or it could be a different culture design philosophy.

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Posted by crobato on :

Sabre, Steamrunner and Norway look different because they were not designed by Paramount/Star Trek insiders. They were in fact designed by Industrial Light and Magic' Alex Jaeger. The Akira also belonged to this list, so it's really four ships. As a matter of fact, it was ILM, who also designed the Klingon Bird of Prey, which is still quite non-Trekkish in look.

Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :

Er, didn't ILM also design the Miranda and Excelsior?

Posted by Daniel (Member # 453) on :

Yes, and the Spacedock and the Grissom, I believe.

Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :

So what if ILM designed the ships or not, so what if aliens designed the ships or not... I'm sure with names like "Akira, Norway, Sabre" etc. as the class names, that they couldn't be solely alien built...

They just don't look to FOLLOW the progression of Federation tech at the time... Why did the Sovvie go back to the itty bitty nav/deflector dish? When most ships like the E-D, Nebbie, Vger etc were on the path of 'large-ass' dishes...

The Excy and the Miri and the Dock etc. LOOK Federation, but, well it wasn't hard to do back then, when there wasn't a backlog of 30 or so starships to compare them to.

I think maybe it comes down to, why do they have to have a NEW Starship EVERY MOVIE... can't they recycle some of the older ships... that haven't been seen much.

Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

I think the sovvie dish fits better with the overall design, borrowed from the Excelsior. And it glows nicely. The galaxy and intrepid dishes look like play dough. And the galaxy dish shapes like a vagina, heh.

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[This message has been edited by Nimrod (edited April 27, 2001).]

Posted by crobato on :

I don't know if ILM did the Miranda and the Excelsior. There is this popular legend that the Miranda's design was actually reversed by accident when it was presented to Harve Bennett, and the original design was supposed to look something like this:
http://www.shipschematics.net/startrek/images/federation/heavyfrigate_miranda_prop.jpg

Anyway, if anyone looks at the four ILM Alex Jaeger designed ships (Akira, Steamrunner, Norway, Sabre classes), he certainly has a different train of thought and basically out of synch with the rest of the starship designers.

There was a clear trend towards triangular hulls (Prometheus, Intrepid, Nova, Sovereign, Dauntless), perhaps molded by what they feel are dictated by the physics of sustained Warp 9.9 flight. With the exception of the Norway, which does have a triangular hull, the other three ships reversed that design trend. Note that the Jaeger ships tend to have a single flat hull, a structure extending from the back, downward pylons or wings. I would believe that the Miranda may be ILM designed, but not the Excelsior.

Posted by Dukhat (Member # 341) on :

quote:
I don't know if ILM did the Miranda and the Excelsior.

Yes, they did.

Although the front and rear views of that pre-Miranda look kinda cool, the side view clearly shows that any phasers or photon torpedoes shot from the weapons pod would instantaneously blow away the lower sensor dome on the saucer section, unless the turrets had some sort of rotating ability.

In my opinion, this predesign is just a rumor.

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Shabren's Final Prophecy: Star Trek: Legacy

[This message has been edited by Dukhat (edited April 27, 2001).]

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

crobato: Those ships you named w/ the triangular "saucers" are also all a lot newer (in the Trek universe) than the FC ships. And I would point out that the Sovereign had a round saucer, and that was designed by Herman Zimmerman and John Eaves.

[This message has been edited by TSN (edited April 27, 2001).]

Posted by Daniel (Member # 453) on :

Intrepid also has a rounder hull. Dauntless was not a federation starship and utilized a completely different drive system.