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Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :

The technologies involved in basic warp flight are much more complicated than just firing excited plasma through verterium cortenide coils (or spools) (or something to that effect).
A list of things that must have been available to Cochrane (and which he likely did not invent himself):

SIF
The Phoenix could have had at least a crude SIF system to keep her intact during her flight, although it is is not entirely necessary, since the structure can supprt itself and it was only one flight.

IDF
The Phoenix definitely needed IDF. Whithout IDF, everyone would've been reduced to mush.

Bussard ramscoops
While not necessary to warp flight (it is only used for fuel replenishment), the Phoenix was clearly outiftted with two 'Buzzard' scoops.

Antimatter
$
$
"Friendship One" allegedly confirmed that Auntie Matter was used aboard the early warp ships, although fusion power seems more realistic for this age.

Artifical gravity
Did the Phoenix have gravity, or was the crew strapped in their chairs? Hard to judge, IIRC.

NavDef
I guess the P must have had at least some kind of forcefield to survive a FTL particle collision.

FTL sensors
Did the Phoenix have sensors?

If Cochrane didn't invent these things, who did?
I'd say the Third World War was instrumental in the development of all these exotic things. Wartime is often a good time for scientific development (see Einstein and his H-bomb idea).
Anti-grav tanks? Extreme aircraft with IDF? Forcefields? AM powered facilities?
I'd vote yes.

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"Fuck L Ron Hubbard and fuck all his clones.
Fuck all those gun-toting
hip gangster wannabes."
-Tool, Ænima

---
Titan Fleet Yards - Harry Doddema's Star Trek Site

Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

It could also be that those genetically engineered supermen from the 1990s spent their off hours designing this supertech. I don't know (or really care) if there was an Eugenics War or not - but if there was, perhaps big and important nations made use of the surviving supermen in their more fantastic R&D programs, the way they used Nazi scientists after WWII?

Also, one never knows what USAF really learned from inspecting Quark's Treasure... Perhaps some of its technology was released for use in the 21st century when it began to seem as if it was needed to combat the most advanced tech of other nations? Perhaps other similar visitors traveling through time or space provided technology to select Earth nations without the matter becoming public knowledge? Some of Starling's minions might have made use of the technology of the Aeon after the death of their boss, too - assuming all these things even took place in the same timeline!

About antimatter vs. fusion drives: perhaps fusion was used for manned ships, giving them inferior performance but superior safety when compared with antimatter-powered unmanned probes?

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by Treknophyle (Member # 509) on :

Still calculating the amount of antimatter required for a Phoenix warp flight - how many seconds? I doubt that it is very much at all - a magnetic thermos bottle of a few grams would probably suffice.

Don't worry too much about radiation exposure - only a few seconds flight - and the hull is titanium - fairly dense regarding radiation - and non-magnetic.

Regarding inertial damping fields - are they required? or does the vessel - wrapped within the warp field, accelerate the contents of the field (vessel and organics) simultaneously. I mean, are we talking several g's - or in crossing the warp threshold (a "instantaneous jump I believe) - maybe there is no time in which to experience any acceleration.

Likewise structural integrity fields. The hull is titanium - one of the strongest alloys available at this time - not likely to fail

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Faster than light - no left or right.

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

Why do I feel like I'm repeating myself...?

We can create antimatter now. Cochrane certainly could have it. The problem is that matter/antimatter reactions result in HUGE MASSIVE LARGE EXPLOSIONS THAT BLOW YOU UP!!! Thus, the reason Trek invented dilithium. Without that, you can't use M/A reactions as a useful source of power.

The "Friendship-1" or whatever (haven't seen the ep yet) was apparently launched a few years after Cochrane's flight. Humans hooked up w/ the Vulcans one day after that flight. Hence, there was plenty of time for Eartn to gain new technologies between Cochrane's flight and the probe launch.

Now that that rant's done...

Botany Bay and Birdseye both had artificial gravity in the 1990s, and it doesn't seem to have been generated by conventional means (i.e. spinning), so, presumably, the Phoenix could easily have had artificial gravity. Also, since I expect the inertial dampers and artificial gravity generators work on the same basic principles, the fact that the Phoenix had an IDF isn't odd, either.

The Bussard collectors do seem strange, especially since they aren't all that effective. Perhaps it wass part of a secondary experiment. Cochrane figured, if the warp flight worked, he could also test the ramscoops at the same time.

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-Maynard James Keenan

Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :

The IDF field was NOT needed in the Phoenix. Remember, the were subject to acceleration forces when they took off. Also, they accelerated to near "critical velocity" BEFORE engaging warp drive. They would have had to accelerate to almost the speed of light so as not to be crushed when making the jump. That's why they did that.

Otherwise they could've done it standing still.

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"The sons of the Prophet were valiant and bold,
And quite unacustomed to fear.
But, of all, the most reckless, or so I am told,
Was Abdulah Boul Boul Ameer."
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Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :

Perhaps the ramscoops were there so they could get home. Secondary fusion-driven whatnot & all that.

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"I'm beginning to think that there'll be NO forced mating at ALL!" --Professor Hubert T. Farnsworth

Posted by Daniel (Member # 453) on :

Pardon me Aban, but you said that the Pheonix accelerated to near light speed before making the jump? Do you KNOW how fast they'd have to be going to reach near light speed? If they were going that fast and accelerated to near c in the timeframe depicted, they WOULD be crushed by the mounting g forces. Consider:

C = 300,000 kps.

"near" c = say 150,000 kps, just to be conservative.

That value = 540,000,000 kph.

To accelerate from speed while in Earth orbit, which is approximately 22,300 mph (if I remember correctly) to 540,000,000 kph in less than ten minutes would create MASSIVE, INTENSE, g-forces. And that's only half the speed of light. I think you'd need an IDF generator.

Posted by Daniel (Member # 453) on :

P.S., could someone explain to me how fusion generators would create the plasma required to pass through the nacelles?

Posted by Treknophyle (Member # 509) on :

Any high-temperature ionized gas is by definition a plasma. The gas within a deuterium fusion reactor would be helium and leftover deuterium - plasma.

Hmmm, maybe it makes sense for Phoenix to be fusion powered? It would explain the need for bussard collectors.

By the way - they merely mentioned that they had to accelerate to "critical velocity" - I don't think they said what it was.

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Faster than light - no left or right.

Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :

Perhaps "critical velocity" was actually the escape velocity needed to leave Earth's gravity well...although if that were the case, I don't know why they wouldn't just merely say "escape velocity," but... :::shrugs:::

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"I'm beginning to think that there'll be NO forced mating at ALL!" --Professor Hubert T. Farnsworth

Posted by Daniel (Member # 453) on :

No, they never explained what "critical velocity" was. Escape velocity from the Earth's gravity well makes sense though, because wouldn't it be dangerous to employ a high level warp field near already-warped space?

Posted by Daniel (Member # 453) on :

P.S. Another concern. When did they invent REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY small fusion generators? Do you think it possible by 2260?

Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :

Why does everyone keep forgetting that warp drive is non-Newtonian. That is, there are NO INERTIAL FORCES ACTING ON THE OCCUPANTS OF A SHIP THAT GOES TO WARP. It's been over a decade since I first saw that and not a YEAR goes by that someone dredges up the inertial vs. non-inertial argument...

--Jonah

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"It's obvious I'm dealing with a moron..."

--Col. Edwards, ROBOTECH

Posted by Daniel (Member # 453) on :

Explain.

Posted by Masao (Member # 232) on :

Dr. Emmett Brown had a garbage-powered Mr. Fusion on the back of his DeLorean in 2025.

Back to Trek. The admittedly non-canon SciTech poster of Phoenix shows a fusion tokamak (donut). The fact that governments are now working on fusion suggests that at least some people think fusion power is within reach. Whether the reactors will be small enough to be launched on a missile is a big question. However, I think we'll have fusion reactors long before we have antimatter reactors.

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When you're in the Sol system, come visit the Starfleet Museum

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

"Without that, you can't use M/A reactions as a useful source of power."

Erm, says who?

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****
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Posted by Daniel (Member # 453) on :

Explain your reasoning as to why they WOULD provide a useful power source, Sol. As I have posted before, M + AM = BOOM! Uncontrolled release of massive amounts of energy. The closest thing we can get to fulfulling the equation E=MC2. Dilithium (or lithium crystals, whatever) REGULATE the M/AM reaction to provide controlled energy release. According to the TNG:TM, it actually SUSPENDS the reaction in its crystal lattice momentarily.

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

What he said.

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

What are you talking about? That's like saying no one can use coal as an energy source because, good lord, it burns! It burns all the way through!

You get energy from antimatter by smashing it into matter, and then you use that energy to do work. In the Real World (patent pending) that probably involves using the resulting explosion to drive a turbine of sorts.

Star Trek gives us dilithium as a way to mediate that reaction, but it's hardly the only way.

Curiously enough, CERN has a whole page devoted to Star Trek's use of antimatter. It doesn't exactly delve into the subject in any great detail. More of a passing mention, in fact. But it does go so far as to list a number of episodes and movies where the stuff played a part in the plot. Even an episode of the Animated Series. This shocked and amazed me for at least thirty seconds.

Posted by David Templar (Member # 580) on :

With Cochrane's habit: many, many cup holders.

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"God's in his heaven. All's right with the world."

Posted by Daniel (Member # 453) on :

Alrighty. Sure, you could mix matter and antimatter together and get power. But it is in a completely uncontrolled release. You'd have to get a REALLY strong container to hold the explosion, and then how are you going to get practical power out of it?

Dilithium/lithium controls the reaction, creating the stream of "energized plasma" neccessary to pass through the warp coils and create the warp fields. No plasma, no warp field, no warp drive. And when you mix matter and antimatter, there is NOTHING left. So it would not work without dilithium/lithium.

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

Of course you have something left. Tremendous amounts of energy, capable of, as I said, spinning a turbine and generating electricity.

Beyond that, you'd have lots of particles left over as well, since the reaction wouldn't be perfect.

I don't see any reason to think antimatter is harder to get power out of than, say, plutonium. You're not going to just be chucking big snowballs of anti-hydrogen at a target. A large uncontrolled antimatter reaction is incredibly dangerous. So is a large uncontrolled fission reaction.

Posted by Tech Sergeant Chen (Member # 350) on :

Masao wrote:
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The fact that governments are now working on fusion suggests that at least some people think fusion power is within reach.
-----------------------

There's a running joke among fusion researchers that goes something like this: In 1960, if you asked one of them, fusion power was 20 years away. In 1980, if you asked again, it was 20 years away. Guess what the current answer is?

Aban Rune wrote:
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Also, they accelerated to near "critical velocity" BEFORE engaging warp drive. They would have had to accelerate to almost the speed of light so as not to be crushed when making the jump.
------------------------

That would have been a neat trick with the rocket power he used. IIRC, because relativity increases effective mass, there isn't enough propellant in the entire universe to get a chemical rocket anywhere near lightspeed.

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Never give up. Never surrender.

Posted by Daniel (Member # 453) on :

May I remind you that electricity is not what makes warp propulsion feasible. As I said, it's "energized plasma" fed through the warp coils.

There is a difference between fission and M/AM reactions. We can control fission. We cannot control M/AM reactions. First of all, an unregulated M/AM reaction, as you pointed out, would be extremely inefficient. Not everything would be destroyed. Second, kinetic and thermal energy created would be extremely hard to convert into practical energy. What you want is not electricity, but plasma. Third, containing an explosion of such force would be incredibly difficult.

For all these reasons, an uncontrolled M/AM reaction is impractical for powering the warp drive of a starship. What they use to control those M/AM reactions in the Star Trek universe, and therefore make them more practical, is dilithium.

Posted by James Fox on :

Daniel, you're not making much sense, and I have the impression that you've not been paying much attention to what people have been saying. So I'll try myself.

First, about this massive explosion thing: you only get a large explosion if you bring large enough quantities of matter and anitimatter into contact. The annhilation of a single particle with a single antiparticle does not produce much energy, so by carefully regulating the amount of matter and antimatter that come into contact, you can get any desired amount of energy.

Second, proton-anti-proton reactions produce photons, neutrinos, and some charged particles. The charged particles will rapidly decay into more photons and neutrinos. You can contain these particles in the reaction chamber with a magnetic field. Most of the energy produced is in the form of electromagnetic energy, and bombarding matter with enough electromagnetic energy will turn it into plasma. Thus, producing plasma is a cinch: just fire a stream of antimatter into a chamber of matter-gas, and as some of the gas in consumed in the Matter/Antimatter reaction, the resulting energy turns the gas into a plasma. Use the usual magnetic coils to contain and direct the plasma. No big deal.

Third, I'm not sure what you're talking about when you talk about 'control'. You control fission and antimatter/matter reations in the same way: by controlling the amounts of reactants that come into contact. This is harder to do in fission because in fission, one of the reactants (neutrons) is produced as a by-product of the reaction (thus making nuclear chain-reactions possible). Your statement about uncontrolled matter/antimatter reactions being inefficient is a bit odd. The meaning of 'control' this implies (actually determining how the reaction takes place) cannot be applied to fission, since a fission reaction in a bomb and one in a reactor are the same. And as our everyday use of reactors demonstrates, you don't need to control the characteristics of a reaction, only the rate, to use it as a source of energy.

James Fox

Posted by Daniel (Member # 453) on :

Sorry. You made some good points there.

Question. If you were to fire a stream of antimatter into a chamber of matter in a gaseous state, wouldn't ALL of the matter be consumed if the stream were continuous? You'd have to let in a stream, close the chamber, let out the resulting plasma, and fill the chamber again.

Also, don't you think that to work the system that way is a lot more complex and energy intensive? Creating magnetic fields strong enough to contain plasma requires A LOT of energy. Would it be efficient on a small scale (i.e., within the space of a chopped down nuclear rocket?). And where would the power for the containment come from? Certainly not from the M/AM reactor, because that's dedicated to creating the plasma. You'd need a secondary fusion reactor or something.

Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :

If the Enterprise-D M/ARA is in any way indicative of what came before, you're still coming at it the wrong way round. First, you had a massive uncontrolled explosion, now you're positing a 'trickle' theory.

On the Enterprise, and maybe the Phoenix, for however much it matters, a lot of matter and just enough antimatter to produce a lot of energetic plasma get pumped into the reaction chamber -- and keep getting pumped in until the power transfer conduits are up to peak operating pressure. Then the ratio and amount of reactants gets re-scaled to keep the system at pressure, and to keep generating however much power is needed. All the plasma is for is to carry the high levels of electromagnetic energy from the reaction chamber to the coils. The plasma itself is just ionized Deuterium.

--Jonah

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"It's obvious I'm dealing with a moron..."

--Col. Edwards, ROBOTECH

Posted by Daniel (Member # 453) on :

Okay. Not to go off onto a completely different tangent, but what happens when the M:AM ratio gets to 1:1? Wouldn't there be no plasma left to carry the EM radiation?

P.S. The matter and antimatter are ALREADY energetic plasma by the time they leave the upper and lower injector nozzles. A M/AM reaction isn't needed to create that state. So, why do they bother with that? Do they just do it while they're waiting for the PTC's to reach operating pressure?

[This message has been edited by Daniel (edited April 29, 2001).]

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

Yeah, that one-to-one ratio always bothered me, too. I can only guess that, once warp 8 is reached, the plasma that there stays around, rather than being depleted. So, all you have to do is keep it heated...

Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

Yeah, that sounds like a reasonable solution. The plasma could simply serve as the best available conductor for these energy pulses the m/am reaction is sending. To fill the conduits, you could pre-create the plasma in whatever way you saw best. You could use m/am to create it, you could use big coal-burning furnaces to create it... Heck, even a simple candle flame is plasma! Then you would engage your main powerplant and start pumping power through the pre-existing plasma.

If we want to say that m/am is the only way to do warp, then we can say that the energy pulses sent through the plasma to the warp coils are "magical" - that is, there is some component to them that is unknown to today's science and can only be created by m/am reactions.

If we want to say that there are other ways to do warp, then we simply say that the energy pulses are nothing but EM excitations triggered by the annihilations and traveling along the conduits like soliton waves in a waveguide. Then you could have a fusion-powered or even coal-powered warpship; even if your powerplant couldn't generate enough continuous power to send out these EM excitation waves, you could rig up some sort of capacitor systems that would be charged by the coal boilers until they could release a pulse, then re-charged for the next pulse.

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by Daniel (Member # 453) on :

Yeah, but a coal powered warpship would have the environmentalists up in arms. :-) Intruguing thoughts. One problem though. The plasma itself is passed through the warp coils. Eventually, the supply in the PTC's will run out. There needs to be some way of replenishing the plasma supply when the ratio of M/AM is 1:1, and I don't think they'd drop the ratio back to 25:1.

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

As we all know, there's only one ratio of matter to antimatter ...

1:1

::smirk::

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***
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Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :

And as we all know from the TOS blooper reels, the Enterprise IS powered by coal.

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I fall just the same
And like before, it's just too hard."
---Kim Leaman, "Sincere"

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

Daniel: That's what I was saying... Maybe, until warp 8 is reached, the plasma runs out and has to be replenished using that high ratio. But, for whatever reason, once warp 8 is reached, the plasma that's already there stays there, as long as it is always re-energized. Thus, the 1:1 ratio at warp 8.

Posted by Treknophyle (Member # 509) on :

Axiom: Crusher stated that the ratio of reactants is always 1:1.

I postulate that although the ratio of reactants remains the same as warp speed goes up (even though for every integer of warp factor we increase, we increase an integer of matter/antimatter consumption, there is another amount of deuterium injected into the core that is NOT a reactant - but is placed there specifically to provide the "plasma" as it is heated and ionized by the matter/antimatter reacion - and then carries the liberated energy to the warp coils.

A given amount of gas will reach higher pressure if it is exposed to more energy. At warp factor 1, the amount of "non-reactant" deuterium far outmeasures that of "reactant" deuterium. As the warp factor/energy release increases, the amount of "non-reactant" deuterium injected decreases as the vessel's speed increases, until at warp 1 the amount of "non-reactant" deuterium is equal to the amount of "reactant" deuterium".

In this scenario, everyone is happy. Crusher is correct, in that the REACTANTS are always at a 1:1 ratio. The Technical Manual is correct, in that the ratio of deuterium to antimatter injected decreases as warp speed increases.

This is henceforth to be known as the "Schmidt Theory of Wishy-Washy Compromise Deuterium Intermix Formula".

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Faster than light - no left or right.

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

Well, obviously the bits that actually annihilate one another are always 1:1. But I was trying to explain why extra deuterium is added at lower warp levels, and, one warp 8 is reached, it's only the equal parts matter and antimatter that are injected...

Posted by Treknophyle (Member # 509) on :

And I respectfully submit that this cannot be so. All that would remain downstream at the warp coil end would be energy (photons) - no plasma. There has to be some extra deuterium. Not a lot (even at warp 7, we are only talking about a few grams of antimatter and twice that of deuterium per second [I worked it out in another thread]), but there MUST be some.

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Faster than light - no left or right.

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

Why? If the deuterium out in the nacelles stays there, all you'd have to do is keep re-energizing it. Who says it "goes away"?

Posted by Daniel (Member # 453) on :

It "goes away" if it cools down. Subjected to temperatures far below 0 degrees C, this would ultimately happen. Also, the plasma is fired into the nacelle in bursts. it is not a continuous stream. This is how they control the warp field.

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"A celibate clergy is an especially good idea because it tends to suppress any hereditary propensity toward fanaticism."

-Eleanor Arroway, "Contact" by Carl Sagan

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

If it cools down, it just turns back into deuterium (liquid or gas, I'm not sure). If you shoot a burst of energy in there, it turns back into plasma.

Posted by Treknophyle (Member # 509) on :

Yes, but subsequent re-energization (pulse after pulse of annihilations) would quickly heat it past the pressure required/allowed. Simpler to vent it. Also, we know that starships in warp do vent warp plasma - that is what causes the damage. And they leave an ion trail (cooled plasma would still be ionized). As was said in an earlier thread, the amount of molecules vented per cubic kilometer would be miniscule - thinner than a comet's tail.

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Faster than light - no left or right.

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

"Yes, but subsequent re-energization (pulse after pulse of annihilations) would quickly heat it past the pressure required/allowed."

Erm... Why?

Posted by Gammera on :

Ok folks here's the deal. All the numbers being thrown around apply to the Enterprise -D. Second the extra deuterium has nothing to do with the plasma. With a core operating temp of 2.5 million Kelvin the H2 would be fused into helium4, and even at that temperature we might see the He4 fusing into whatever. The reason for that additional deuterium is simple. Just cause a matter and a anti-matter particle is present doesn't mean that they will find each other (they have proved this mathematically in the real world). So to insure total destruction of the anti-matter you over saturate the M/ARC with deuterium, it would be real bad if stray anti-matter exploded down stream on the PTC or something. Why does it ever go 1:1 I don't know I do know that it is stressful for a starship to go "balls to the wall" for too long before it needs the engine shut down for maintenance, probable anti-matter damage?

Back to the point though did Zeek use anti-matter? I would like to think not. And for my reasoning I leave you with this though? How in HELL did he make it?!!! He could have made large amounts of Deuterium (I can do it in my chem lab at the university I go to), and it is conceivable that he would be able to create a small fusion reactor to drive his ship. But how did he create anti-matter in a post apoclyptic world. Even in the 24th century the creation of anti-matter is no small feat. (See section 5.7 of the NG:TM if you want to argue this)

As for the comment about the chemical rocket driving the ship to near luminal velocities. How do you think an Impulse engine works. The warp fields were active upon separation from the missile reducing the ships mass towards infinite zero so it could jump the light barrier lower mass easier to push the ship. (One point I have argued that the warp drive did not actually drive the ship as it does for later ships, but instead the subspace field lowered the mass of the ship to apparent zero and the Newtonian engine pushed the ship to warp one.)

Notice no witty signature here!!!

[This message has been edited by Gammera (edited May 02, 2001).]

Posted by Treknophyle (Member # 509) on :

Gammera:
At those temperatures, I'm not sure if you'd get fusion - I'd think you'd get dissassociation (naked elemental particles).

Regarding the over-deuterium allowing quicker reaction: I thought that was what the dilithium was for.

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Faster than light - no left or right.

Posted by Daniel (Member # 453) on :

Okay, look. This is how it works according to the TNG:TM. The properties of dilithium are given as follows:

"This is the only material known to Federation science to be nonreactive with antimatter when subjected to a high-frequency electromagnetic (EM) field in the megawatt range, rendering it "porous" to antihydrogen. Dilithium permits the antihydrogen to pass directly through its crystalline structure without actually touching it, owing to the dynamo effect created in the added iron atoms."

"There are two distinct reaction mdes. The first involves the generation of high levels of energy channeled to the electro plasma system, much like a standard fusion reaction, to provide raw energy for the ship to function while a sublight."

"The second mode makes full use of dilithium's ability to cause a partial suspension of the reaction, creating the critical pulse frequency to be sent to the warp engine nacelles."

Dilithum IS the element in the drive that ensures complete anhiliation of antimatter injected into the system. So overloading the core with deuterium has nothing to do with that aspect of it.

Also, an impulse engine does not drive a starship to near c velocities. Full impulse is held to be .25 c. It may be possible to engage the impulse drive to near light speeds, but it still does not involve the warp fields in any way shape or form. Read up on the impulse drive and its design in the TNG:TM.

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"A celibate clergy is an especially good idea because it tends to suppress any hereditary propensity toward fanaticism."

-Eleanor Arroway, "Contact" by Carl Sagan

Posted by Gammera on :

First off the fusion point of deuterium is well below one million Kelvin (500,000 sticks in my head for some reason, I am in the process of looking this up). The M/AMC is operating at 2.5 million K. So lets just all agree for now that yes there is deuterium fusion going on in the warp core until 1:1

As to the impulse comment that Daniel made.
summerizing the part of the ipulse section in english.
The Ambassador class had too much mass for the impulse engines to push, so they included a set of subspace coils to reduce the mass of the vessel, in a mater similar to the warp coils, but not to the point were the impulse engines can push the starship to warp.
Fact section (at lest fact for make belive)
1) Section 6.1 NG:TM second para half way down, ?This necessitated the inclusion of a compact space-time driver coil, similar to those used in warp engine nacelles, that would perform a low-level continuum distortion without driving the vehicle across the warp threshold.?
2) Section 6.2 NG:TM last para second sentence. ?Current impulse engine configurations acheve efficiencies approaching 85% when velocities are limited to .5 c (or twice the speed of full impulse).
3) Last but not least on the impulse question Section 1.1 second page ?Secondary (impulse) propulsion to provide sublight velocities up to and including .92 light speed (c).?
Section 6.2 does talk about why full impulse is at .25 c but it is a speed limit not a limit on how fast the ship can go. So Daniel (Pull out my trusty zippo) I suggest you review the manual yourself.

The last point of dilithium is harder to ague since the writing is sort of vague and open to interpretation. While I do concede and never have disputed the above statement that yes dilithium can accommodate anti-matter the rest seems kinda irrelevant to the fact of assured annihilation of the anti-matter. Fact of the matter is people who are doing theoretical work on REAL LIFE M/A engines have the mathematical problem of making sure that they meet, even using particle colliders. One would think it should be easy considering the opposite polarities of the matter and anti-matter particles.

Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

In any case, the snippets of the TNG TM seem to say that the plasma carries energy to applications, and when the energy is pulsed the right way, it can run the warp coil application.

So based on this, you don't need dilithium specifically. What you need is as follows:

1) A means to create plasma to carry the energy.
2) A means to keep feeding energy to that plasma (so that the energy travels to the applications, and the plasma stays plasmatic).
3) A means to pulse your energy output so that it can properly excite the warp coils.

Well, 1) is easy. You can create plasma in a variety of real-world ways. No need for antimatter, or even for fusion.

And 2) is open to debate. Most probably, some of the applications require humungous amounts of power, so the energy source has to be powerful - fusion might not be efficient enough for warp drive, if you couldn't pack the required mass or volume of fusion reactors aboard a starship. But probably you could, since a few grams of antimatter (probably but not necessarily antideuterium) were enough to run the drive for two seconds in "Peak Performance".

Finally, 3) is crucial. The TM seems to say that antimatter annihilation energy release cannot be pulsed unless it is controlled by dilithium. This makes some sense - you can pulse the energy release by pulsing your antimatter injection, but this may not give you the required fine control. Dilithium might give higher frequencies and more delicate control than the best possible injection valves money can buy.

But 3) is also dependent on 2). Okay, perhaps antimatter energy release cannot be pulsed with sufficient accuracy without dilithium. But can OTHER energy releases? If 2) says that other energy sources are powerful enough for warp drive, then perhaps there are other means of pulsing those energies, means that do not require dilithium (or paralithium, as used by some races - or "lithium", as mentioned in early TOS).

Without further information, we could thus say that TNG TM gives an all-okay for dilithium-less warp drives, although it frowns on dilithium-less antimatter-powered warp drives.

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by Treknophyle (Member # 509) on :

Well, I don't know if the Romulans use dilithium, but it is established that the warbirds do not use M/AM reactions - but instead run matter (deuterium) through the ergosphere of a singularity (tame black hole).

Take a bitch of a lot of power to move that much mass (even a quantum black hole), so when not used for propulsion, the energy available for weapons should be enormous.

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Faster than light - no left or right.