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Posted by The359 (Member # 37) on :

For those who have seen this, there is a new trailer for the Voyager season finale "Endgame" that is airing on UPN now, and it features some beautiful scenes. One of these scenes has a ship being chased by Voyager near what appears to be Earth and then the same ship chasing the Delta Flyer. This ship looks remarkably like the Defiant, but not quite the same. So, I present to you, five pictures of this mysterious ship. Is it truely Federation? What is it?

Pic #1
Pic #2
Pic #3
Pic #4
Pic #5

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"No, 3 & 6 are mandatory, so you only have to do them if you want"

Alex, fellow classmate, trying to explain an assignment (2/2/01)

[This message has been edited by The359 (edited April 28, 2001).]

Posted by TheF0rce (Member # 533) on :

wheres this trailer!
crap

that doesn't look much like starfleet
must be the blurr

Posted by The359 (Member # 37) on :

It's at www.trektoday.com

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"No, 3 & 6 are mandatory, so you only have to do them if you want"

Alex, fellow classmate, trying to explain an assignment (2/2/01)

Posted by TheF0rce (Member # 533) on :

craptacular
i was afraid the commander and 7 might get it on

Posted by TheF0rce (Member # 533) on :

and more klingons!
how interesting!

Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :

Sweet Zombie Jesus! It's about time we saw a Defiant derivative! Or something like it, anyway...

Mark

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"Why build one, when you can have two at twice the price?"

- Carl Sagan, "Contact"

Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :

I hate to point out the obvious but that looks alot more like the Federation scout from STIX than the defiant.

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We attack tommorow, under cover of daylight!

Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :

Whatever... Now that I've downloaded the trailer, the other main thing we see is the uniform "Admiral" janeway seems to be wearing. It certainly looks like the "future TNG" uniform, or a variation thereof. I miss those colorful digs, and do hope they drag them out again for their third use.

Mark

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"Why build one, when you can have two at twice the price?"

- Carl Sagan, "Contact"

Posted by akb1979 (Member # 557) on :

I know I said that I'd stay away from these spoiler discussions but I was drawn by the 'new ship' bit.

Anyways, I heard that the Delta Flyer was destroyed in one of the double episodes involving the Borg - Unimatrix Zero? Or something like that. If this is true, how can the Delta Flyer be in the final episode?

Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :

They built another one. Rather quickly, if you ask me - another indication that Voyager is hardly hurting for food, supplies, energy, etc.

Mark

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"Why build one, when you can have two at twice the price?"

- Carl Sagan, "Contact"

Posted by Daniel (Member # 453) on :

Oh no. Not only are they doing a "flash-forward" deal like in AGT, but they're re-using the uniforms! For some reason, I couldn't download the trailer, but I saw the pic of Janeway. This scares me very much.

Posted by The359 (Member # 37) on :

Well, the only thing that Endgame and AGT have in common is that they run in multiple time lines (and even then, AGT had 3 (1 alternate future) and Endgame will have 2 (with real future).

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"No, 3 & 6 are mandatory, so you only have to do them if you want"

Alex, fellow classmate, trying to explain an assignment (2/2/01)

Posted by MIB on :

Kind of looks like the ship in this link http://www.scifi-art.com/forums/Forum2/HTML/001908.html minus the tail fins.

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"We have to get drunk immediately."----Gattaca

[This message has been edited by MIB (edited April 29, 2001).]

Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :

Are we even certain this is from the final episode, and not from a slightly earlier one. Unless this is indeed from Endgame, that ain't no Federation ship...

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"I can be creative when I have a good idea. That just happens way too rarely."
-Omega, April 6

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

Of course they're reusing the uniforms. Both AGT and "The Visitor" have suggested that these are the next evolution of Starfleet uniform design. It would be silly to go back on that now.

For once, they actually did something right, continuity-wise...

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"Although, from what I understand, having travelled around the Mid-west quite a bit, apparently Jesus is coming, so I guess the choice now is we should decide whether we should spit or swallow."
-Maynard James Keenan

Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :

Argh. I hate those uniforms. And the insignia.

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"I�ll never fall in the arms of someone sincere
I fall just the same
And like before, it's just too hard."
---Kim Leaman, "Sincere"

Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :

Really? I liked both. The new uniforms were more colourful than the standard ones of NTG, though admittedly they wouldn't be as flattering on heavier people. Anyway,I preferred the layout of color oveer trousers that harkens back to the TOS days. Quitre nice IMO.

Mark

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"Why build one, when you can have two at twice the price?"

- Carl Sagan, "Contact"

Posted by The359 (Member # 37) on :

Well, Geordi didn't wear the new uniform in "Timeless" but he did have the new pin, which means the new pin most likely will come first. I don't have a problem with the new uniforms, though. Of course, it could be an Admiral thing, since Janeway is an Admiral in that scene.

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"No, 3 & 6 are mandatory, so you only have to do them if you want"

Alex, fellow classmate, trying to explain an assignment (2/2/01)

Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :

Sure that Janeway is an admiral? Riker wore a different uniform in AGT. But maybe they changed that.

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"Second star to the right, and then straight on till morning."

Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

Riker also rode a starship extensively refitted to his personal tastes. Perhaps he was a latter-day General Patton, insisting on wearing a non-regulation uniform (but in this case clinging to his old flag uniform from a few years back, instead of designing a personal uniform of his own).

The possible "Endgame" ship looks interesting enough, but somehow it doesn't strike me as something Rick would do as his final job for the show. Perhaps Rick's input on the design wasn't all that significant, or perhaps he wanted to move towards a Jaegerian-Eavesian look to "smooth things over", to create a logical transition?

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :

The uniform does indeed look to be the same one as seen in AGT. Janeway's has a gold braid round the collar, though. I didn't particularly like the uniform's either, but I'm glad they're sticking with them for continuity's sake.

The "Timeless" future was only about 15 years hense, whereas AGT and "Endgame" appear to be 20-25 years from "now".

To me, the ship looks like one of the early designs of the Defiant, back when she was still the Valiant. One of the designs featured more swooping wings and no nose cone.

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"The sons of the Prophet were valiant and bold,
And quite unacustomed to fear.
But, of all, the most reckless, or so I am told,
Was Abdulah Boul Boul Ameer."
Aban's Illustration www.alanfore.com

Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :

I think it's a mistake to use the "AGT" uniforms. They were designed to be an extrapolation of the late-TNG/DS9 uniforms, which have themselves since been superseded by the FC uniforms (which seem to have been further extrapolated into the future as the Relativity uniforms). I can't see them making a sudden shift back into very colourful uniforms in just 20 years.

Furthermore, they look crap. They were designed to be used in one ep, and they're not hard-wearing enough for regular re-wearing. They looked awful in "The Visitor" - rumpled and ill-fitting.

Another thought - did the "AGT" uniforms have the silly V-Pleat in the trouser cuffs? Because that's been abandoned on the FC uniform.

Ultimate question is: just because all such appearances of the "AGT" uniform have been in alternate timeleines that now won't happen - have in effect been such wildly alternate futures that we know the "real" future will be very different - does that completely invalidate them every swithing to wearing this style?

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"It strikes me that there are enough episodes of the Simpsons that people could speak entirely in Simpsonese, using references from the show to explain or describe an endless series of situations. Nelson and Apu . . . at Tinagra.

But now I�ve brought Star Trek into it again, haven�t I. Sorry."

- James Lileks, 09/04/2001

Posted by Joshua Bell (Member # 327) on :

I believe the observations of the future in AGT are a reasonable extrapolation of the future - at the time. Q, of course, could fake anything he wanted to, but it's also within his (claimed) powers to pop forwards in time (to a possible future?) and see how things actually progress.

Picard's experience - and later, Sisko's - have some effect on the timeline, thus we would not expect anything hinged on them to play out the same way. Depending on whether timelines are relatively stable or chaotic that could mean anything from almost no change to almost total change. Trek seems to consistently portray the former, given how easily they patch up and gloss over timeline changes.

(Contrast all of this with Riker's experience in "Future Imperfect" [TNG] where the simulated future is based entirely on Riker's imagination.)

Something like Starfleet uniform design - removed from Picard/Sisko by several intermediate layers and not a big matter of concern - would be unlikely to be affected by their actions. The fate of the Enterprise, directly under the control of Picard and dictated by even minor scheduling changes (the decision of which ship to send to investigate the observatory in ST: Generations, for example).

At least, that's my interpretation - based on the evidence we have - of how things work *as envisioned by the creators of the show*. I think the repeated use of this possible-future uniform is a *gasp* sign of consistency by the producers/designers of the show, who don't want to invent a new and different future look every time, and want us (the viewers) to recognize it.

The door is left wide open for a change in fashion if we ever do see the "actual" future (e.g. a follow-on series). If the Starfleet uniform designer happens to go on away mission led by Picard or Sisko then things are likely to look radically different.

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

Since AGT and "The Visitor" are alternate timelines, if "Endgame" used different uniforms, sure it would have been okay. But I don't think these uniforms were based so much on the late-TNG uniforms, as on the TOS uniforms.

Personally, I'm just glad to see TPTB actually attempting some sort of continuity in Voyager...

Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :

The events of "The Visitor" having been undone, we got the Klingon and the Dominion Wars, which apparently did not happen to the extent that they did in the "real" timeline. The wars no doubt had an impact on the darker, more militaristic turn of the uniforms designed for FC. Therefore, it is reasonable to assume that uniform design would have been effected by Sisko's non-disappearance. However, it is also just as reasonable to assume that, the war having passed, uniform design will be changed back to the way it would have gone to go along with the "let's get past it" philosophy that may very well be permeating Starfleet right now.

In short (too late) I think either the established uniforms or a different one would have worked and am just as happy to see a little continuity.

Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :

Methinks the Starfleet Corps of Tailors didn't say "oh look, we're at war, let's make sure everyone's wearing something dark looking. That way, if people are watching our actions 400 years earlier on television, they'll catch a much better 'war' vibe."

The conflict with the Klingons probably had nothing to do with the introduction of new uniforms. Considering the things are made of ubercloth and designed to be amazingly good in all manner of environments, the R&D phase of them must be at least a year, meaning that uniforms can't just chance on a whim given changing political fortunes.

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"I can be creative when I have a good idea. That just happens way too rarely."
-Omega, April 6

Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :

*disagrees 100% with the_tom but decides that's ok*

I actually think that changing the uniforms to fit the current climate makes alot of sense. "serious times call for serious clothes."

Once they came up with the material to make these miracles of fashion, would they really have to go through extensive R&D every time they made a change?

Some of you real-world military guys: Does the US military change uniforms for specific reasons?

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

Uniform R&D?! Oy... *L*

Posted by Fabrux (Member # 71) on :

Well, they have to be called something... I can't picture Starfleet calling them fashion designers...

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"Of course I'm paranoid! Everyone's trying to kill me."
- Weyoun, "Treachery, Faith, and the Great River"

[This message has been edited by Fabrux (edited April 30, 2001).]

Posted by Daniel (Member # 453) on :

I can see it now:

Star Fleet Development and Production Team for Creation of Ergonomic Long-Term-Use Uniforms (SFDPTCELTUU)

- "And most of'em look cool too!"

Posted by Mikey T (Member # 144) on :

Yes, I can imagine it now...

"Admiral, the new uniforms from the Starfleet Uniforms and Ergonomics Research Development Department has arrived onboad."

"Good, have them distributed and bring my Armani dress uniform to my ready room. I can't wait to try it on."

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"When I said to get involved in the gay community, I didn't mean to sleep with everyone in it."
Michael_T

Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :

Well, I'll ask again...to you real-life military guys...who designs and approves US Military uniforms?

My guess is congress approves them and contracts a designer to design them.

And it's not like they would ship crates of these uniforms to the various ships and bases. They'd simply upload the specs to the replicator systems.

Posted by Treknophyle (Member # 509) on :

Abun Rune:
Exactly. I've been thinking that for some time now. But it begs a question that has been plaguing my days and haunting my nights:

If they can upload an entire holomatrix to Voyager - why can't they upload the new uniform specs? And don't tell me "limited power resources". It is the same material (just different colors and cut), so the replicators don't really have that much to do.

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Faster than light - no left or right.

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

Maybe Janeway likes the uniforms they have...

Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :

The real answer is that TPTB want to keep them the way they are so as not to throw anyone who doesn't watch DS9 and to differentiate the series from DS9. At least they've troubled themselves to use the FC style in the Alpha Quad stories.

Janeway could simply have made the decision to keep the ones they have as a show of solidarity or something. Though you would think that making the crew feel like part of Starfleet and the Alpha Quad would be more encouraging....

Whatever.

Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :

Or maybe she feltthey were too militaristic & seeing as how everyone else in the DQ has a military-style uni, the "glamorous technician" duds set them apart as helpers & not conquerors.

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"I�ll never fall in the arms of someone sincere
I fall just the same
And like before, it's just too hard."
---Kim Leaman, "Sincere"

Posted by Michael Dracon (Member # 4) on :

Section 31 has a rumor/possible real plot that says that the ship is an experimental Federation timeship.

Read about it here: http://section31.com/stories/april-2001/043001_a.htm

Please note that it has a lot of other potentially HUGE spoilers!

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"We have a good arrangement. He supplies the weapons, I use them."
- Blade

Posted by Dukhat (Member # 341) on :

So basically what they're saying is that it's just like AGT, in that the "future" we're going to see won't really happen because Tuvok will go back in time to change it all.

If this is what's really going to happen, then this sucks.

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Lisa: "OK, now we're gonna pick jobs out of the chore hat. Dad, you go first."
Homer: "Come on, bikini inspector...scrub toilet! Ohhhwww...OK, that was a practice..."

Shabren's Final Prophecy: Star Trek: Legacy

Posted by Michael Dracon (Member # 4) on :

From what I saw on the Trektoday forum Tuvok will have traveled back in time already in the first half hour.

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"We have a good arrangement. He supplies the weapons, I use them."
- Blade

Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :

So, basically, the show will end showing us a future in which they have gotten home, which will be undone in the end and leave them still on their way by the end...

Either that, or future Tuvok will help them get home using something he knows...

Kate Mulgrew has said that it won't end well for Janeway, though I think.

I don't know. I'm done speculating. The freaking thing is on in a few weeks....

Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :

$$$SPOILER$$$ short version

quote:
According to the report, the finale will be set 25 years in the future. We will see Admiral Janeway (in actual fact a Borg Replicant ) trying to kill Tuvok, who was locked up in a mental asylum for attacking Janeway after the ship got back to Earth. Tuvok manages to kill Janeway instead, and with an experimental time ship jumps back in time, narrowly avoiding a Borg Fleet, to undo the events of Janeway being replaced. Back in time in the Delta Quadrant, Voyager encounters an advanced Borg Destroyer. The ship beams over an away team, but they accidentally activate a distress beacon, causing another Borg Fleet to appear. At the end of the first half, Janeway receives an ultimatum from the Borg in which they threaten to destroy her ship if she doesn't turn herself over to the Queen. Janway decides to surrender, even as Tuvok is still rushing towards her in the timeship.

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"Second star to the right, and then straight on till morning."

[This message has been edited by Fitz (edited May 02, 2001).]

Posted by The359 (Member # 37) on :

Well, it now appears this ship is NOT from "Endgame". Dare I say, oops. It was from tonight's episode, "Natural Law", and was an alien ship. Oh well.

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"No, 3 & 6 are mandatory, so you only have to do them if you want"

Alex, fellow classmate, trying to explain an assignment (2/2/01)

Posted by The359 (Member # 37) on :

I figured I should post this here, since we had a discussion about the "Endgame" uniforms. Here is the evidence you seek:

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"No, 3 & 6 are mandatory, so you only have to do them if you want"

Alex, fellow classmate, trying to explain an assignment (2/2/01)

Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

Is it just an optical illusion, or does Kim finally have more than one shiny pip on his uniform?

Plus, nice to see he's a redshirt now. Not only does that imply a career move towards command tasks, but it IMHO looks better on Wang.

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by Michael Dracon (Member # 4) on :

Maybe that's because it looks like a Chinese robe...

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"I don't poke my head into business world too much. All I care about is making the show. And naked stuff."

- Joss Whedon, creator of Buffy the Vampire Slayer

Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :

Uh, there *are* plenty of yellow/gold oriental-style robes...

Mark

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"Why build one, when you can have two at twice the price?"

- Carl Sagan, "Contact"

Posted by The359 (Member # 37) on :

He has 4 pips because he is a captain in the future. Sort of like how Nog becames a Captain in "Visitor"...

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"No, 3 & 6 are mandatory, so you only have to do them if you want"

Alex, fellow classmate, trying to explain an assignment (2/2/01)

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

I think Timo was being (dare I say it?) sarcastic.

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Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 8.32 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux (with seven eps posted)
***
"Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!"
-Omega 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001
***
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"I think this reason why girls don't do well on multiple choice tests goes all the way back to the Bible, all the way back to Genesis, Adam and Eve. God said, 'All right, Eve, multiple choice or multiple orgasms, what's it going to be?' We all know what was chosen" - Rush Limbaugh, Feb. 23, 1994.