Flare Sci-Fi Forums: Distance of the first warp flight

This is topic Distance of the first warp flight in forum Starships & Technology at Flare Sci-Fi Forums.

To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://flare.solareclipse.net/ultimatebb.php/topic/6/1198.html

Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :

Since we saw Earth in the window of the Phoenix in FC, should we not be able to figure out exactly how great a section of arc it took up in the sky, and thus how far away Cochrane was, and THUS how long his trip took? 'Cause Earth seemed awfully big to me for being a lightspeed trip away. I mean, the moon's only 1.5 lightseconds away, and the disk wasn't all that smaller from the Phoenix...

------------------
"How do you define fool?"
"I don't attempt it. I wait for demonstrations. They inevitably surpass my imagination."
- CJ Cherryh, Invader

Posted by Masao (Member # 232) on :

I don't think we can rely on the apparent size of the earth out the window, since there are several variables, including lens type, the window, and the position of the moon relative to earth. Good luck!

------------------
When you're in the Sol system, come visit the Starfleet Museum

Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :

Though this is something I have wondered about for a while.

Did they warp back to Earth, or use standard propulsion? Being that far away, you wouldn't think they'd be able to "catch up" with Earth as it orbited the sun using standard thrust. They also had to beat the Vulcans back who were traveling through the outer reaches of the system, presumably.

Also, how did they land? Did the Phoenix have some kind of parachute sytem? They must been able to target their landing pretty good to be able to get back to the camp before the Vulcans landed. Splash down would be out fo the question. They would've had to have been able to land on the ground.

------------------
"The sons of the Prophet were valiant and bold,
And quite unacustomed to fear.
But, of all, the most reckless, or so I am told,
Was Abdulah Boul Boul Ameer."
Aban's Illustration www.alanfore.com

Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

So what do we know about the timetable? Picard originally said something like the warp flight happening on June 3rd and first contact taking place June 4th, IIRC. The flight was delayed - so perhaps contact was made on 5th in the altered timeline? Still, I don't think we can say the Vulcan arrival took more than a day if the dialogue really went the way I remember it.

In a day, LaForge got the E-E back to flying condition - not impossible, I guess, if he only had to patch the coolant tubes. The nav deflector might not have been needed on such a short trip (from Earth orbit through time to Earth orbit again).

And in a day, Cochrane probably made a sublight journey of the kind that would have taken an Apollo capsule some two weeks - the minimum warp time is about ten seconds, as per dialogue, so the minimum distance traveled would be about ten lightseconds, or 6+ times the Earth-Moon distance. But tenfold sublight performance over Apollo is peanuts: we already saw that Cochrane's liftoff booster was at least that much better than current rockets.

Precision landing using the forward capsule and a steerable parachute doesn't appear impossible, either. Such technology is becoming available in this decade already, in the real world which appears to drag behind the Trek world by two or three decades.

And the E-E crew could have given covert aid, tractor beams or shuttlebay rides or whatnot, to return the delayed flight to original schedule...

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

Except, that if Picard hadn't gotten the crew back by that time, the E-E crew consisted of him, Data, and a battered starship ...

------------------
Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 8.32 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux (with seven eps posted)
***
"Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!"
-Omega 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001
***
Card-Carrying Member of the Flare APAO
***
"I think this reason why girls don't do well on multiple choice tests goes all the way back to the Bible, all the way back to Genesis, Adam and Eve. God said, 'All right, Eve, multiple choice or multiple orgasms, what's it going to be?' We all know what was chosen" - Rush Limbaugh, Feb. 23, 1994.

Posted by Theta15 on :

I agree, the Earth is way to large in the cockpit window!!

Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :

@Timo: wasnt that April the 3rd and 4th?

------------------
"Fuck L Ron Hubbard and fuck all his clones.
Fuck all those gun-toting
hip gangster wannabes."
-Tool, Ænima

---
Titan Fleet Yards - Harry Doddema's Star Trek Site

Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :

As regards how the Phoenix crew returned to Earth, I've always said they must have parachuted down in the nosecone, leaving the stardrive in orbit. This makes sense given the state of the world at the time - it makes for a better bargaining position to have the product he's selling in orbit and unstealable.

------------------
Phasers

Posted by Daniel (Member # 453) on :

What I love about the whole darned this is that they presumably engaged the warp engines while in the solar system, a cosmic no-no according to the TMs. Engage warp drive in a gravity well? Potentially horrific damage to the space-time continuum could ensue.

Or comedic if you ripped a hole into a parallel world where all celestial objects were shaped as the heads of Sesame Street characters.

------------------
"A celibate clergy is an especially good idea because it tends to suppress any hereditary propensity toward fanaticism."

-Eleanor Arroway, "Contact" by Carl Sagan

Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :

Ships have gone to warp within solar systems oodles of times. The only problems seem to arise when close to massive sources of gravity, like a star (as in "By Inferno's Light")

------------------
"And as it is, it is cheaper than drinking."
-DT on arguing with Omega, April 30

Posted by Masao (Member # 232) on :

I think that Phoenix made its short hop at warp, then turned around and maybe another hop back. I think it's likely that only the crew capsule got back safely by parachute. But didn't Picard, as he caressed the booster/warp section, say something about having wanted to touch Phoenix while it was in the Smithsonian/ This suggests to me that that part of the ship had somehow made it into the museum. Maybe it was brought back inside a space shuttle after being in space for a few years?

------------------
When you're in the Sol system, come visit the Starfleet Museum

Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :

I wonder if the nacelles can pull back into the missile body afterwards... that would make it a bit easier to land the ship. But even with parachutes, I'm sure it would be a rough ride down. For one thing, there isn't likely to be enough fuel for a powered landing. Another- what about heat shielding for during the re-entry? If they didn't have something like that, we'd have Roast Cochrane to serve the Vulcans when they landed. (Oops-- I forgot, they're vegetarians.

)

------------------
You know, you really should keep a personal log. Why bore others needlessly?
The Gigantic Collection of Star Trek Minutiae

Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

The nose cone seemed heat-shielded in a "traditional" way - the surface was tiled with presumably heat-resistant materials. Of course, the super-duper rocket tech of that era could have given the pod a relatively low reentry speed, and a big enough parachute opened high in the stratosphere could have helped a little more, so that heat-shielding wouldn't have been necessary...

I trust Cochrane left his drive stage in orbit and then sold it to somebody who could afford to bring it down using a big shuttle-type space vehicle. He could also have refitted the drive section for another flight, though - perhaps by installing a bigger pod and a meteoroid shield, plus some extra fuel tanks, thereby creating the ship we see in the original Chronology. (I doubt he risked another hop during his initial test flight, though. If the rocket engines of his ship were as good as those of his liftoff booster, he could have been back home at safe sublight in no time flat.)

Perhaps the Smithsonian has an orbital annex in Picard's time, with weightless old space artifacts floating around in a pressurized bubble for the visitors to touch?

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :

No, because Picard made it quite clear he couldn't touch the Phoenix before.

------------------
Phasers

Posted by Treknophyle (Member # 509) on :

I think we're using an unwarranted assumption:
that the Phoenix used liquid fuels for liftoff.

Alternatives:

Fusion drive. Tad hot for bystanders, but it allows him PLENTY of fuel reserve for a jet landing.

Antimatter Drive. We already assume he has antimatter containment for warp drive. Fine - he allows a small stream of antimatter particles to flow into the rocket nozzle bell - where it meets a spray of water. Zoom. Doesn't pollute - and he can land on his jets. (Assuming landing jacks).

------------------
Faster than light - no left or right.

Posted by Masao (Member # 232) on :

Are we assuming he used antimatter containment for warp drive? Up until about 2 weeks ago, I thought everyone was assuming he used fusion or fission to power the warp drive. Are we going to let "Friendship One" change conventional wisdom so quickly?

------------------
When you're in the Sol system, come visit the Starfleet Museum

Posted by DARKSTAR on :

I think taht Zemfram did a leap out and a leap back. He then esatblished an earth orbit retracted the nacelles and while using a low level Warp field entered earth atmosphere. The ship using thrusters made a landing some distance from the complex.

Posted by DARKSTAR on :

He roughly travelled 12x the distance of the Earth and Moon which is 300,000 km x 12 =3,600,000 miles or 3.6 light seconds

Posted by Treknophyle (Member # 509) on :

Darkstar:
Glad to see you guy!

What are you using as the basis of your calculation? Angle of Earth-Moon in window? Timing of flight?

(Note to others on this BBS: This is the POLITE way to inquire a person regarding an opinion stated as fact, but unsupported by published or referred-to evidence in the message.)

I hate to lecture one or two of you on etiquette - but apparently your mothers never got around to it.)

(Note to Darkstar: It is a tradition on this BBS to present opinion AS opinion, unless you can give canon-grade evidence to support it as factual in the Star Trek ficton. Failure to do so often leads to challenges of a friendly [I would hope] nature.)

------------------
Faster than light - no left or right.