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Posted by TheF0rce (Member # 533) on :

yes
lets start another debate about fleet size hehehe
even though we'll probably never reach a conclusion.

assuming the registeries are chronological and that each ship built goes up by 1 digit.

taking the registry of the sutherland--from another debate
NCC-72015
[i know thats not the highest]
lets just assume that ever since the dawn of starfleet and up till the Sutherland-starfleet have built around
72015 ships!
whoa-lotta ships

now lets assume that only 1/4 of that number is still intact--meaning they haven't been lost or decomissioned
and they eigther are in service or mothballed.
thats around 18003 ships[almost]

now lets assume that of this number, only 1/4th are capital ships--like excelsiors,nebulas,akiras and mirandas

all others are oberths, and some small dinky science ship, transports, surveyers, maybe even runabouts.

thats 4500 capital ships
is it just me or does that number makes sense as to how many ships starfleet should have

i mean for the peaceful era before wolf359
that number makes sense----those ships are scattered everywhere around a large federation and only half of them are "really" equipped for combat.
making the loss of 40 ships around close to earth a very big loss.

but, now even for the dominion war-i think this number still makes sense as to how many starfleet ships should have---alot of the mirandas and excels got brought back into service.

we know of fleets--probably 10
some very big-probably around 1000 ships
and some very small--just over a 100

all together take 4500 ships and divide them to 10 fleets and you get an average of 450 ships per fleet
even though we know fleets varied in sizes.

makes sense when you hear the constant dialogue of portraying starfleet as always undermaned and spread thin in ships during the dominion war.

and now that i think of it, it especially makes sense that the dominion rienforcements of 2000 ships would tip the scale of the war forever not just against the fed but the combined forces of the klingons as well....
the feds can't have too many ships or a fleet of mere 2000 ships would not be that much of a death blow to the alphaquadrant.

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[This message has been edited by TheF0rce (edited May 13, 2001).]

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

Now, let's assume that using a caps button would make people more inclined to read this.

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Posted by Evolved (Member # 389) on :

Ouch! Anyway, while your statements make sense, a far more interesting question in my opinion is just how many starbases and outposts Starfleet has. Just how many Starbase 74 types are there out there? Is DS9 really in "deep space"?

Thoughts?

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Ace

"Objects in mirror are closer than they appear."

Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :

Some food for thought: We don't know if Federation registries run on one continuum (ie no such thing as NAR-74656, NDT-74656 etc. etc.) or if Starfleet has a separate registry continuum from other Federation bodies that register ships (so we could have NCC-74656, NAR-714656 and NDT-74656)

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-DT on arguing with Omega, April 30

Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

I think that semi-canonically the multiple-continuum theory is confirmed - some display or another already had a NAR registry that matched an existing NCC registry. I'll have to do some digging, though. Anyway, here's something that's been said many times before:

Multiple separate continuums (continuae? continui?) would make sense if one wants to hold on to chronological registries, too. We saw NARs in the 20000 range back in ST6's time, and heard of NARs in the four-digit range in pre-Federation times - the NCCs seem to be dragging behind if we take them to be even roughly chronological.

As for starbases, those apparently aren't chronological. In TOS, we had SB 200 already, and in TNG, SBs up to the high 700s - yet SB 173 only came online during the run of TNG. So either SB numbers are recycled, or then many of them were left unused originally and Starfleet is now slowly filling in the gaps. SB numbers might very well be based on sector numbers or something, instead of chronological order.

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by TheF0rce (Member # 533) on :

hey unless i'm gonna turn this in for a grade
screw the caps

life's too short for them.

[This message has been edited by TheF0rce (edited May 14, 2001).]

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

Life's too short to hit the "shift" key, but not too short to make the above post ... ? Fascinating. Maybe your finger's too short to hit the "shift" key ...

Posted by akb1979 (Member # 557) on :

ALRIGHT THAT'S ENOUGHT CHILDREN!

There JeffKardde, that enought CAPS for you?

So the guy can't be bothered with the CAPS or SHIFT keys, is that a crime? The last time I checked, it was not. Leave him alone please, we can do without another slagging off match like this Darkstar issue. (Nothing personal JeffKardde, but honestly is it such a big deal whether a person uses CAPS or not?)

With that out of the way and off my chest, I'd like to add a little fact that may have been missed. Just prior to the Defiant entering the wormhole to meet the Dominion fleet, there were approximately 2,800 ships on their way through the wormhole. 2,800!

I'd like to know what percentage of the Dominion fleet that those 2,800 were allocated. If it was 1% then the Dominion fleet = 280,000 ships, and that's a lot of ships! And if the Dominion can have that many, what's stopping the Federation from doing the same?

Oh yes, don't forget scrapped/failed prototypes. If they were given a registry number and then not used, that might account for the large 75*** numbers seen near the end of DS9 series 7. Or did you already mention that? Probably!

Posted by TheF0rce (Member # 533) on :

grrrr
and i thought you were just joshing with me.

JeffKardde
hey if you can't make sense of what i wrote becuase i don't use the shift key---on a message board that has nothing in the rule book about adhering to perfect english: that is on an internet based world where "LOL" is allowed,
and in a post that has nothing to do with adhering to gramatical rules,
then just tell me and i'll simplify it down to just the numbers so you won't have to trouble your grammatical log mind.

and if thats not your problem and you just have some bone to pick with me or your just a bizaar asshole
then lets take it outside!

Posted by Matrix (Member # 376) on :

2800 ships is alot. If the Dominion has lets say 20,000 ships and Starfleet has 5,000-8,000 ships. Also the Klingons might have a smaller fleet of about 3,000-5,000 ships. That 2,800 ships can tip the scale for anything even if Starfleet has over 20,000 ships herself.

Starfleet does have the industrial strength and resources to be 1000 times lager than what they are now. The only reason why is that it would be considered militeristic and the other powers will do the same thus creating a arms race. Though this aalready happening its going very slowly according to the expansion of the Federation.

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The whole concept of Survivor is get your average Joe and put him/her on the show and see how they react. Afterwards even though they did not win they make money by appearing on shows. There is no point in having to win a million dollars! They will make that amount in 2 months after appearing on 100 different shows!

Posted by akb1979 (Member # 557) on :

GRRRR!

WHAT DID I SAY!?

E-N-O-U-G-H!

WHY WON'T PEOPLE LISTEN TO ME!?

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRHHHHHH!

STOP THE FIGHTING BEFORE IT STARTS!

By the way, any retort to my comment about the size of the Dominion fleet?

Posted by TheF0rce (Member # 533) on :

ok ok

back to the topic
i still kinda prefer the dominion to have less than 10,000 ships or else haveing 2,800 ships would not ensure them of overrunning the federation

i mean the dominion could just build the 2,800 ships if their total fleet was several times that size.

Posted by David Templar (Member # 580) on :

Well, the Dominions are suppose to be the predominant power of the Gamma quadrant. They aren't just made up of the Founders, but several other races, too. Kinda like a Federation if Starfleet went around saying "join us or dieeeeeeeeee". And they have been around for over a thousand years.

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"God's in his heaven. All's right with the world."

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

No.

They've told the races that they've forced to join them that they have been around for thousands of years. There's no evidence that that just isn't propaganda to make the Dominion look even more terrifying to their enemies.

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

Actually, I don't think the Dominion tells its subject races much of anything.

Beyond that, the Vorta, at least, believe the Dominion to be several millennia old. It's possible that this number is false, but the Vorta, at least, seem to genuinely believe it.

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Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

It's still possible that the Vorta are being lied at - even about their origins, the story of which was revealed in "Treachery, Faith and the Great River".

In any case, there is no logic in saying the Dominion is as puny as the Federation. About half of DS9 was dedicated to showing us that a minuscule beachhead force of Dominion troops could dig in and then expand to threaten the whole Alpha quadrant. At early stages of the war, some 2800 ships were a major commitment to the Dominion - but towards the end, tens of thousands of ships could apparently be thrown into the fire. Clearly, the Dominion was going to win unless it could be uprooted from Cardassia.

It doesn't matter if the Alpha quadrant beachhead force originally represented 75% or 0.000000001% of Dominion total military forces in Gamma. It suffices to know that this beachhead force had the stated capacity to *expand*. So even if only 25% of the fleet was left to defend Gamma, it would evidently be trivially easy to multiply it by a factor of a couple of hundred to counter any invasion.

THAT is strength. Not mere starship numbers, but the ability to freely *alter* the numbers to fit the current strategic situation.

So IMHO, Dominion forces should not be compared against Starfleet in strength. It would simply embarrass everybody involved. It's much like comparing the offensive capabilities of a super soaker and a garden hose - the latter is never gonna run out of ammo, so it doesn't matter how much water it can pour out per minute, it will still get you wetter than the soaker.

When Starfleet gets to the level where the loss of a starship doesn't matter at all because it and its crew can be *instantly* replaced, then it can come and compare itself with the Dominion main fleet.

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

Oh, I didn't mean to imply that the Vorta date was true. I meant that the Vorta, or at least Weyoun, believe it to be, because he had no reason to lie to Odo about it.

Posted by Matrix (Member # 376) on :

Timo, but another part about strength is actual starship strength. If the Dominion had thousands of ships that was equivilivant to a Starfleet shuttle then it wouldn't matter if the Dominion could multiply them by thousand times, Starfleet would would always have bbetter ships. The two come hand to hand, to compare two things you must look 3 dimensionaly. Fleet size, industrial strength, territory size, crew sizes, starships strength.

What made the Dominion so powerful was that they could reclone anybody while we humans have to do it the old fashioned way. I don't about the ships but I'm assuming that those ships are produced similar to the way we produce cars. In my own opinion the average Starfleet ship was equal or better than the Jemmi bug, that's why aside from the size of the Federation, the Dominion was more concerned with the Starfleet fkeet than the Klingon, Romulan or even the Cardassian fleet.

To make a good guess on the size of Starfleet we must take a look at the size of the Federation first. Then we must take a look at the placement of ships that would be in the Federation territory. We also must take alot at the placement of Starbases based inside the Federation territory. We can't just make wild guesses but educated guesses based on info and common sense. Right now I'm calculating the size of the Federation and and the availablity of ships when ever there was crisis in Star Trek.

Posted by TheF0rce (Member # 533) on :

dominion ships have better sensors
amazing transporters
ships built to take alot of dammage.
shields??don't know.

good propulsion--i think...at least they weren't shown to be slow.

crew wise---they're all good--no sleep---very professional and easily replaceble.

the only bad part of their crew seems to be the vorta--who sometimes are real idiots.

[This message has been edited by TheF0rce (edited May 16, 2001).]

Posted by akb1979 (Member # 557) on :

Idiots? How were the Vorta idiots? OK, so they ordered a few suicide runs on the Klingon ships that were attacking the Chintoka system, but I can't think of any other occasions . . .

On a personal note - I've never considered such facts about fleets before and well . . . I'm finding them really useful - for my novel, cheers!. Which by the way, will probably never get published . Still, it's a cool way to pass the time when you are bored and have an over-active mind that can only think on space and starships and aliens!

How do you people find the time to think about such things in SUCH depth? I am truely amazed at your talents. Most days I barely have the strength and energy to get out of bed! Hehe!

Posted by bear (Member # 124) on :

I realize that for the most part the dominion ships were shown to be perfect warships, but is it possible that this was the very thing that made them unsuited for winning against the allies. For example, the perceived combat weakness of the Fed could have been more than made up with by its efficiency in being able to go from point A to point B very fast. Lets say a pair of excelsior jump into a system, raise a little hell, and jump out, so Dominion dispatches a flight of say six fighter to deal them, but because the Excelsior can take a beating and run farther as fast as the fighter, the Excelsiors win. Now lets say that we multiply this a few hundred times, and the Dominion not lacking fire power starts really missing their toilet paper.

I guess I am stating the obvious, and I realize this is a fleet size thread, but I am just trying justify a numerically inferior SF.
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[This message has been edited by bear (edited May 16, 2001).]

Posted by TheF0rce (Member # 533) on :

sometimes vorta are idiots
lets face it---their command structures are not ideal...

vorta's are shown seldomly listening to jemahadar oppinions.

and they are shown always quick to save themselves.

as for hit and run tactics--i didn't heard they were all too successful, at least attempts made by starfleet.

excels making a hit and run attack will probably be making their last...jem bugs are very fast

[This message has been edited by TheF0rce (edited May 16, 2001).]

Posted by bear (Member # 124) on :

Hey, why wouldn't they be as fast or faster? Has it been shown that a capital ship like the Excelsiors couldn't retire effectively against Jem Fighters? We all know that two could probably take one Excel in hand to hand, but has it been proven that Jem Fighters were faster than even the slowest Fed capital ship. My suggestion was not to imply that Jem Fighters were slow, but to imply that they have the bite but maybe not the wind to chase down a ship like an Excelsior.

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[This message has been edited by bear (edited May 16, 2001).]

Posted by bear (Member # 124) on :

Is it possible that the only reason that premptive strikes didn't work in the begining was because the founders new the exact time that captain was in the head?

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[This message has been edited by bear (edited May 16, 2001).]

Posted by TheF0rce (Member # 533) on :

well we have the time martok took his squadren of BOP for a raid against dominion holdups.

martock took his BOP instead of cruisers cuase he knew none of them were fast enough for this operation...

then we see those BOP quickly being outrunned by jem bugs or fighters
sure we don't know what angle they intercepted from---but even the quick bird of preys couldn't outrun them
and since excels and bird of preys fit in the same time era and excels are in the relatively slow cruiser family...i just assumed

[This message has been edited by TheF0rce (edited May 16, 2001).]

Posted by bear (Member # 124) on :

Did Martock actually say that his cruiser weren�t fast enough, or was it a maneuverability issue?

I can�t prove by any means the Excelsior or any Fed ship for that matter is faster than the Jem fighter, but I can�t still put forth an idea of how a fleet of inferior numbers and firepower could possibly vanquish a foe that didn�t appear to have any weaknesses.

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Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

I've actually never thought about why he always chose a BoP. It does make sense, in such a volatile battle environment as against the Dominion, one needs to stay on his feet. A Vor'Cha would be quite doomed.

About the size of the Dominion, I wouldn't stop at an estimate of 20,000 ships.
Remember that this is a dictatorship, vessels need to be able to reach and patrol any given point in pretty much the whole gamma quad, at least before the war. Well, perhaps even the more after the war, the news of the dominion defeat probably had all the border worlds partying like it was 2399.

So, I'm thinking the dominion fleet could land at about 50-60,000 ships.
The main reason they didn't throw in as much as they could through the 'hole may be that there's a certain limit to how much they can drain their ship resources without risking their own back yard.

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