I would be glad about any suggestions and corrections (well, except for the BoP size issue - I'm tired of it).

Coming next: Pre-Federation ships with NX-01 and such...
 

See this page. It's an easy modification of the D-7 image.

I realize that it was the K't'inga model used in "Prophecy" (VGR), but I don't think you'd be right to ignore the clear identifying dialog. Better to list a D-7 variant which just *happens* to look like the K't'inga. You can have the "Unexpected" (ENT) ship under this category too.

Nice, Bernd! Can we see *Romulans* next?

-MMoM

[ November 20, 2001: Message edited by: The Mighty Monkey of Mim ]

quote:

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Anyone have the TMP novelization? I had it once long ago & I remember it had the names of Amar's brother ships.

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I would be very glad to get these names. I would like to include the names in a footnote, or maybe in the official list?

quote:

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See this page. It's an easy modification of the D-7 image.

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Not really that different. But if all Klingon battlecruisers are alike, it could explain the "Prophecy" ship.

quote:

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I realize that it was the K't'inga model used in "Prophecy" (VGR), but I don't think you'd be right to ignore the clear identifying dialog. Better to list a D-7 variant which just *happens* to look like the K't'inga. You can have the "Unexpected" (ENT) ship under this category too.

---

Oh yes. That's what I was going to say. The "Unexpected" ship is not a K't'inga but the model was only used because of the low budget and because no one anticipated that they would need a Klingon ship. >:-> The "Prophecy" ship may fall into the same category. I'll see how I can express that.

And Romulans will be done rather fast. I'm thinking of having them on one page with the Cardassians, Jem'Hadar, Ferengi and other races - but maybe I should keep the page length moderate.
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Shik:
Anyone have the TMP novelization? I had it once long ago & I remember it had the names of Amar's brother ships.

---

Sorry, but the novelization doesn't even mention the name of the Amar, much less the other two ships. This is largely due to the fact that the scene at Epsilon IX featuring the Klingon captain's transmission isn't included in the novel. It does, of course, establish the term "K't'inga."

Incidentally, the Phase II book has the script of "In Thy Image" from when it was to be a television pilot. The three Klingon ships are identified as the Koro class. It seems the change to K't'inga came later, perhaps even when Roddenberry was writing the novelization. Just thought I'd throw that in, since technically K't'inga isn't even canon.

[ November 20, 2001: Message edited by: Ryan McReynolds ]

1) Make it clear that we don't know exactly when the K'tinga and the BoPs came into use. It should be "roughly 2270" and "around the 2280s". K'tingas are new according to the TMP novelization, but not the canon. Also remember that the canon dates for the five-year mission are now 2265-2270. Kirk then commanded the Enterprise until 2270. Just striving for perfection

2) Why did you make the freighter 256m long? I thought we agreed that was RS's scaling mistake. Should be 170m. Do you have independent evidence to the contrary?

3) I'd put Negh'Var at the Visual Effects' 686m, because that's the closest we get to the intended size. The DS9TM figure, although close, is still a mistake. BTW, the DS9 Companion makes it clear that the huge size in the mirror universe was intentional, and it would help your page to point this out. Remember those many rows of windows we wondered about a few years back -- they were part of a separate, enlarged section built specifically to scale the ship up. The windows on the regular model would've revealed the old scale.

4) The Voodieh would be in service around 2395 (2370+25).

5) Did the Klingon ships actually cloak in "Flashback"? If so, then this would be inconsistent with Spock's conclusion in Star Trek VI that a cloaked ship could only be a bird-of-prey. Worth mentioning.

Keep up the good work.

[ November 20, 2001: Message edited by: Phelps ]

Here's the update:
http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/klingon_ships.htm

quote:

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2) Why did you make the freighter 256m long? I thought we agreed that was RS's scaling mistake. Should be 170m. Do you have independent evidence to the contrary?

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The freighters in "Sons and Daughters" were a lot bigger than 170m. I just picked the next best figure.

quote:

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5) Did the Klingon ships actually cloak in "Flashback"? If so, then this would be inconsistent with Spock's conclusion in Star Trek VI that a cloaked ship could only be a bird-of-prey. Worth mentioning.

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Must check that. I don't remember them being cloaked.

quote:

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I'd also like to mention that the script for "Broken Bow" has a scene that identifies Klaang's shuttle as K'toch class, but it was apparently edited out of the final episode. Take it as you will.

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Thanks. I didn't know that. It should be as valid as the Voodieh class (although we never see the shuttle).
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Phelps:
I thought Alan Dean Foster "ghost-wrote" the novelization?

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Long-standing Trek-myth, but now known to be utterly untrue. Foster did ghost-write the novelization for Star Wars, which is probably where the confusion arose in the first place.
 

quote:

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The ship has one torpedo tube in the bow and two deflector cannons at the wing tips

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Would those be similar to the disruptor shields?
Gotta keep an eye on those spell checkers

Vor'Cha = Vor'cha
Partok = Par'tok
Vornak = Vor'nak
Orintho = Orantho
Ma'Para = Malpara
KiTang = Ki'tang
Ning'Tau = Ning'tao
Etam = Y'tem
Qevin = Slivin
Groth = Gr'oth
Drovna = Drovana
Yavang = Ya'Vang
P'Rang = P'rang.

I spell-checked every item in your list, and double-checked the spellings I posted here. I used the umanitoba ship list to locate the episodes for these names so that I'd know exactly where to look for the severely misspelled names. Now, it would be good if someone could check if some of the names were changed between the script and the show (the Qevin/Slivin from "Once More unto the Breach" strikes me as particularily odd).

There are no alternative spellings that I could find, with the exception of VORI'NAK in the pronounciation guide (though the pronounciation is Vor-nahk, so it looks like a mistake), SLIVAN (pronounced SLEE-van) (once), Vor'Cha (once), and Negh'var (once).

[ November 21, 2001: Message edited by: Phelps ]

And I still REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAALLLLLLLLLLLLLYYYYYYYYYY think you should do a retouch of the D-7 pic to be the TAS D-5. Just add a little nub at the front around the torp tube/sensor and a pair of tubes on towards the back of the neck. C'mon. Do your part to make sure TAS isn't forgotten.

-MMoM
 

So, here's what we have as far as Klingon ships go:

1.) The ENT "Unexpected" battlecruiser which looks like a K't'inga but may be either a totally unheard of class, or may be a D-7 like the ship in VGR "Prophecy." Rear impulse engines and possibly torp tube. Appearingly smooth hull.

2.) The TOS D-7. No rear impulse engines or torp tube. Smooth hull. Bubble-shaped/ovular bridge module.

3.) The DS9 "Trials and Tribble-ations" D-7. Identical to above except for subtle added surface detailing on hull. (Seems slightly more advanced, although this wouyld seem odd as T&T takes place before the D-7 was originally introduced in TOS.)

4.) The D-5 from TAS and mentioned in "Once More Unto the Breach" (DS9). Same smooth, impulse engine- and torp tube-free hull and bubble bridge of the D-7, but with protrusion from forward torp tube/sensor port, and small tube-like thingies on neck.

5.) The standard K't'inga introduced in TMP, and seen in all following series. Greebly-encrusted hull, dome-shaped bridge module, rear impulse engines and torp tube. Ds9 showed modified weapons port locations.

6.) Possible IKS T'ong K't'inga sleeper ship variant portrayed in Fact Files. No difference seen onscreen.

7.) VGR "Prophecy" D-7. K't'inga look-alike. Possibly same as ENT "Unexpected" ship.

8.) B'rel-class scout first seen in STIII. Possibly originally a Romulan design. One of three known designs called 'Bird of Prey.'

9.) K'vort-class cruiser from TNG, et al. Identical except in scale to B'rel. Also called 'BoP.'

10.) D-12 class from Generations. Similar in size to K'vort. Third design called 'BoP'.

11.) Vor'Cha class attack cruiser from TNG, et al.

12.) Neg'Var class from DS9.

13.) Possible Neg'var variant from VGR "Endgame." Slightly different underslung pods??

14.) Voodieh from "All Good Things..." (TNG).

15.) Toron-class shuttle from TNG.

16.) K'toch-class from ENT "Broken Bow"

-MMoM
 

You may want to add that Klingon ship which appeared on the "Siege of AR558"-display. Only 'Lhr was legible but it's probably the Fek'Lhr.

[ November 20, 2001: Message edited by: Spike ]

2. The registry of the Toron Class shuttlecraft is NCD-31775.
 

2. The registry of the Toron Class shuttlecraft is NCD-31775.

3. The IKS Koraga is identified as K'Vort Class in an okudagram.
 

The B'Rel was 'scout sized'. smaller than the E-Refit.

The Klingon BOPs seen in DS9 weren't as small as the B'Rel but they weren't as LARGE as the LARGE LARGE BOPs seen in Yesterday's Enterprise (yes yes an alternate reality - but the ED was still built) and the 3 large BOPs from The Defector. Then there are SMALLER and Larger BOPs seen in DS9 it seems. Look at the little BOPs in the mirror universe.
 

The okudagram is seen in the runabout USS Gander. Ezri Dax is hunting for survivors.
 

And to verify that both BoPs are of the same size, we see both Dukat's ship and the Rotarran (their identities are clearly defined by context) docked to DS9, using the same stock footage shots. Thus, the infamous BoP scaling debacle need not be evoked.

Also note that the Klingon ships are not simply painted green. They also have added "nacelles" on the downcanted wings, and seem to have some extra stuff added to the bow. So that alleviates the "scaling problem" - the ships *are* of different designs. Luckily, there are no easily distinguishable scale-establishing features like portholes or docking ports on the ships, nor do we have any reason to assume that a standard "container" is being used. Those bumpy protrusions do not appear to be detachable containers at all, but simply fixed cargo holds (we even see the interior of one briefly in "Return to Grace").

I have no problem saying that the ships share a common origin. Perhaps the Cardassians stole Klingon ships in the old Betreka nebula conflict, or the Klingons stole Cardassian ships in the invasion of Cardassia, or in the Dominion war. But a common manufacturer still clearly produced two differently sized models.

In fact, since both Cardassians and Klingons have been shown using the Merchantman model, I gather that some sharing took place there, too. And I suspect the Klingons were the original owners and manufacturers, at least until we hear of Cardassian presence near Earth in the timeframe of ST3...

Timo Saloniemi

[ November 21, 2001: Message edited by: Timo ]

The difference between a D-5 and a D-7 lies deeper, possibly in the nature of the main powerplant, or perhaps (if we want to evoke the scaling problematique) the size of the spaceframe. Externally, a D-7 can look like a ship from TAS, or a D-5 like a ship from TNG. Similarly, there is an underlying difference between D-12 and the other, non-retired BoP types, but we're not privy to it. And Klingons redecorate their BoPs to a lesser degree than their battlecruisers.

Timo Saloniemi
 

quote:

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quote:
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The ship has one torpedo tube in the bow and two deflector cannons at the wing tips
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Would those be similar to the disruptor shields?
Gotta keep an eye on those spell checkers

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Oops. I haven't even enabled the spell checker. I must have been thinking of two things at once.

quote:

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6.) Possible IKS T'ong K't'inga sleeper ship variant portrayed in Fact Files. No difference seen onscreen.

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Since it's stock footage and it was nothing mentioned that points to a class variant, I will simply assume that it's another K't'inga (only a very cold one).

BTW, does anyone know about possible modifications for the Kronos One? All pics I have seem to be of the TMP K't'inga.

quote:

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13.) Possible Neg'var variant from VGR "Endgame." Slightly different underslung pods??

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I didn't see it on my 300x200 copy of Endgame, but I may check it.

quote:

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And I still REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAALLLLLLLLLLLLLYYYYYYYYYY think you should do a retouch of the D-7 pic to be the TAS D-5. Just add a little nub at the front around the torp tube/sensor and a pair of tubes on towards the back of the neck. C'mon. Do your part to make sure TAS isn't forgotten.

---

This conflicts with my wish to think of a reeeeeeaaalllly old ship that looks different from the D-7.

quote:

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Vor'Cha = Vor'cha
Partok = Par'tok
Vornak = Vor'nak
Orintho = Orantho
Ma'Para = Malpara
KiTang = Ki'tang
Ning'Tau = Ning'tao
Etam = Y'tem
Qevin = Slivin
Groth = Gr'oth
Drovna = Drovana
Yavang = Ya'Vang
P'Rang = P'rang.

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Thanks a lot!

At least for the strange Qevin/Slivin I should watch the episode again. Anyone speaking Klingon? Maybe both spellings sound alike.

quote:

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The behemoths in "Sons and Daughters" are clearly in the high 500m+ range (and thus the first truly big freighters seen so far, if we discount the waste barge from TNG "Final Mission).

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Maybe the idea to have them at the same size isn't that good after all. But the similarity of the designs would be hard to explain if the sizes were different.
 

I also found an alternative spelling in the pronounciation guide "SLIVAN" (pronounced SLEE-van), but this is outnumbered by Slivin in the actual text (two instances in the dialogue).
 

Oh, & there's both an Etam (Dukat's prize) AND a Y'Tem. (from the "By Inferno's Light" fleet)
 

What about that Klingon scout ship from "Friday's Child?" I realize it was just a glowing smudge, but it is a canon glowing smudge
 

quote:

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Originally posted by targetemployee:
Two quick notes:
1. The IKC Amar is absent from the latest version of the TMP. If we follow precedent, this is the definitive version. Therefore, this Klingon battlecruiser's name is not canonical...

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Bull. (Sorry! Just caustic about this. ) Just because there's a new version of the film out doesn't mean that previous versions are non-canonical. You cannot erase canon by making a re-edit of the scene. Stuff that's new in the DE is canon, but stuff from the other two versions that was cut is still just as canon.

None of this 'definitive version' crap. All the edits were seen onscreen for many many MANY years. They cannot be simply whisked away by an alternate version.

Besides, we count stuff like that canon all the time. What about all the stuff in the Encyclopedia that was drawn from scenes in Insurrection that were cut? (U.S.S. Ticonderoga, etc...)

IKC Amar is just as canon as it ever was, and always will be.

And so is TAS. (Whoops! I told ya. Don't get me started! Where's Snay when I need to be put in my place?)

-MMoM
 

quote:

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This conflicts with my wish to think of a reeeeeeaaalllly old ship that looks different from the D-7...

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Well, if Kor was using it around 2270, it couldn't be that old, could it?

Besides, RDM said he was referring to the TAS ship. That should count for something. And like you said, it would help things considerably if all battlecruisers looked very much alike.

If we see a K't'inga (or K't'inga look-alike) in ENT, then why can't you accept the TAS D-5?

-MMoM
 

Question is, where did Okuda get "Etam" for Dukat's ship? Someone said once he used the UManitoba ship list for reference. Now, if we check that list, we see that UManitoba has only the Etam, assuming it to be Dukat's ship. Let's say Okuda adopted the assumption into the Encyclopedia and added the Y'tem from the scripts, not realizing the mistake. Unless Dukat's BoP is named onscreen, which it isn't in the script.

If Bernd's original spellings are in the Encyclopedia, then the Encyclopedia must be wrong. Okuda is supposed to use the actual script spellings like he said he would, and usually does.

Unless a name has been contradicted onscreen, the script takes precedence over the Encyclopedia, just as registry numbers from models and Okudagrams take precedence over those from the Encyclopedia. It's not like the writers don't know how to spell Klingon, and have to be corrected by Okuda. Not even Okrand can claim to have higher authority, since his Klingon is not always used on the show.

[ November 21, 2001: Message edited by: Phelps ]

Mark
 

http://neutralzone.my100megs.com/KlingonCivilianTransportShip.jpg
 

If you're gonna be using the Merchantman, ILM's ship charts for Star Trek III have established a size of 220 feet or 67 meters. I noticed you didn't have that note in your pages.

[ November 21, 2001: Message edited by: Phelps ]

Three new ships are up too, including the "Endgame" Negh'Var which is (to my surprise) a Negh'Var with both the weapons pods and the spikes and therefore definitely a third variant. The pod seems to be the same as on the standard Negh'Var.
 

Okay, you should at least make note of the TAS ship if you're determined not to use it. You could mention it in the annotations and link to an image.

And, now that I think about it, aren't ALL the TNG BoP's supposed to be K'vorts? Even if not explicitly stated, I think the Encyclopedia says which are what.

-MMoM
 

As far as the big BoPs -- any big BoPs -- are concerned: in the ideal world, they would've been new ship models, and I suggest we treat them as such. Period. The writers of "Yesterday's Enterprise" wanted merely the first BoP seen in the show to be a BoP, while the fighting ships at the end were to be "K'vort class battlecruisers". They got the BoP for both shots. Similarily, the ship in "A Matter of Honor" wasn't specified as a BoP in writers' directions, but that's what they got.

The writers did ask for the BoP in "The Defector", "Reunion" and "Redemption". It seems they had learned the reality of their budget by that time. Fortunately, they got the Vor'cha soon enough to avoid more scaling problems, which unfortunately did persist because the VFX crews got used to scaling the BoPs higher next to the Ent-D.

Mike Okuda fixed the problem in his way, which as Bernd describes is not completely true to the show. The K'vort/B'rel explanation never really caught hold among the writers, the effects crews, and even Mike Okuda, who didn't bother to figure out the sizes for the ships and instead scaled both at 110m in the Encyclopedia. The reality is that the writers and the characters usually talk about a generic BoP in the scripts, and the Effects crews think of the BoP as a 110m ship whose size can be changed for dramaturgic reasons. The only reason we saw big ships in TNG was that the Klingons needed something visually comparable to the Ent-D, and couldn't get a new model initially. Hence, the size of the BoP goes up from 110m. In DS9, we had the Vor'chas, and no big ships to show next to the BoP -- hence no reason to deviate from the 110m baseline, or a reason to show them at less than 110m from time to time. But the assumed size is still 110m.

The big BoP period had best be forgotten. Some of the ships can be subsumed into the 110m range, for others we'd have to postulate short-lived experimental designs that only looked like a BoP. This is the apparent consensus among the people producing Star Trek. It's not the consensus among most of fandom, but that's because most of fandom is aware of only Okuda's work. They don't talk to David Stipes or Ron D. Moore.

[ November 21, 2001: Message edited by: Phelps ]

I don't think we saw those ships but there might have been a named dropped.
 

Hope that helps!
 

quote:

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The differences between the Kronos One K't'inga and the TMP K't'inga can be seen at Starship Modeler's Reference Section.
Hope that helps!

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Just what I was looking for to modify the crappy schematic I have of the ship. Thanks!
 

There has to be at least 2 BOP sizes - you cannot deny the huge-arsed bops in The Defector - if nothing else.

There is another Klingon ship... the wierd ship seen in "Rules of Engagement" - I wish I had a video cap card - cause that is one ship I have NEVER EVER found GOOD clear vid caps for on the 'net. That and the Centaur... and if someone posts links to those centaur pics that are all washed out and grey - and you can't see any detail and when you try to fix up the brightness/contrast/gammacorrection all there is are coloured lines or more grey - I'm gonna scream! ;o)
 

Isn�t this the ship?
http://neutralzone.my100megs.com/KlingonCivilianTransportShip.htm

As for Centaur, I made screencaps myself:
http://www.stguardian.to/fed/excelsiorvariant/index.html
 

Timo Saloniemi

[ November 23, 2001: Message edited by: Timo ]

Andrew

P.S. this pic here:

http://neutralzone.my100megs.com/KlingonCivilianTransportShip.htm

I don't see any different ship here... I just see a bunch of Bajoran ships and a K'Tinga in the background... it's not very clear

oh and those Centaur screen caps - I think they are the only ones on the net Bernd - they aren't very clear either (sorry) they have these coloured lines running through them - and they are very grey - and you can't make out much detail in them... especially when you try to adjust the brightness/contrast/gamma correction.

Andrew

[ November 23, 2001: Message edited by: AndrewR ]

This ship perhaps:
http://neutralzone.my100megs.com/KlingonNoggra03.htm
 

Also, more reference shots of the TUC and TMP ships are at http://members.aol.com/IDICPage/TMPKlingon.html.

[ November 23, 2001: Message edited by: Ace ]

Gowron calls Vor'Cha Class ships battlecruisers. "Extreme Measures"
 

Andrew
 

quote:

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Bernd, I see you changed your K't'inga picture...but why is it gray? BTW, a guy at Starship Modeler built a K't'inga model and has some reference shots of the differences between the TMP and TUC ships in his review.

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I changed the color because none of the K't'inga images show any trace of green. I suppose when it appeared green in DS9, it was done through the lighting just as with the Warbird.

Thanks for the link. I didn't go into much detail comparing the versions, and I only noticed the golden ornaments that were added to the Kronos One, which I take as refinements, rrther as a sign that it's a new class.

Lukara?
Isn't that the name of Kahless' wife?

Oh yes, one more thing. I made an embarrassing error with the "Noggra" which is actually the name of the guy who adopted Kurn and not of the ship. It is not even probable that it is Noggra's ship who said that he and Kurn were on a shuttle (and to corroborate this, they would have to leave in a shuttle, rather than in the depicted ship).
 

The BoP from "Blood Oath" is never identified as the Lukara in the scripts. Kahless' wife wasn't named before "Looking for Par'mach...", season five. Was this name really in an episode?

[ November 24, 2001: Message edited by: Phelps ]

[ November 24, 2001: Message edited by: Phelps ]

IKS Cha'Joh
IKS Chang
IKS Fek'Ihr
IKS K'Ratak
IKS Lukara

Most Decipher ship names are pulled straight from the episodes, but some are "made up" and are self-admittedly non-canon, FWIW. Interestingly, they came up with IKC Fek'lyr back in 1995 and then the DS9 Art Dept. used the same name (or appears to have used it) on that casualty schematic we were debating not so long ago. Probably coincidence, but neat nonetheless.

[ November 25, 2001: Message edited by: The_Tom ]

quote:

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IKC Bad-ass-Dude-who-kicks-the-shit-out-of-the-dishonoured doesn't work, Andrew?

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Well, when you put it like that
 

quote:

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Originally posted by pIn'a' Sov:
AndrewR: I don�t know what the problem is, on my monitor my screencaps look just fine

This ship perhaps:
http://neutralzone.my100megs.com/KlingonNoggra03.htm

---

That would have made a really good Klingon starship (i.e. a D-4) for the Enterprise series.

Guardian 2000
 

What sort of ship IS it, really? It need not be a dedicated transport, just because it was seen transporting Skreeans in "Sanctuary". Perhaps it indeed is an old-model warship, and the House of Noggra was small and insignificant enough to have one of those instead of a D-7 or a Vor'Cha as the House flagship. Klingons might have loaned a couple of those for emergency transport use in "Sanctuary".

I don't think we have to mind the fact that Noggra claimed "Rodek" had been injured in a shuttle accident. Clearly, a shuttle could not have made the transit from some other system to Bajor. So Noggra's cover story would probably involve the shuttle being launched from this big ship, suffering an accident, being recovered by the ship, and "Rodek" being delivered to the nearest proper medical facility (the same episode showed that even Klingons don't trust Klingon facilities much).

Timo Saloniemi
 

Perhaps, like the above examples, Noggra was referring to his method of transportation rather that the actual ship itself when he said "shuttle."
 

About the Klingon ship: "That model needed to be repainted anyway, so I proposed that we make it look very distinct from those in the fist film, especially since it was one fo the few models we could alter to look new for this show. We did some research into military costuming, and came up with the concept that when these ships return victorious from battle, the Klingons build some sort of epaulet onto their wings or paint a new stripe on. We painted the model brown and red with gold highlights, then added golden etched brass epaulets on it, based on some of the helmet designs we'd seen. It contrasts nicely with the Enterprise, which is very smooth and monochromatic and cool, while this Klingon ship is very regal and ostentatious and warm."

He also mentions that the Excelsior model got a new, smaller bridge, since the interiors were shot with the redressed Enterprise bridge rather than the one used in STIII.